One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Like I said, I have failed to make my point clear to you.

You made your point clear.

The problem with your point is that it makes no sense, and I'm not saying this to slight you, it just doesn't.

You're saying Zoro didn't win because he ended up losing consciousness? Someone doesn't stop being a winner in a fight because they lost consciousness after. This is a new rule you're making up for whatever reason.

 

[Fox666]

Why Oda even felt the need to have Zoro pass out, when he's endured seemingly worse is lost on me.

Injuries are unpredictable. Even for One Piece universe, where characters can survive fatal ones.

The real reason Zoro passed out was because the plot required it.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I disagree with those saying that the only reason Zoro passed out was because he no longer perceived a threat from the Benkei dude, there is just no evidence of this.

Zoro passing out is irrelevant to the fact he won against Kamazo. He made Kamazo lost consciousness, that's non-verbal for "I'm no longer able to continue fighting you", therefore, he won. The winner is the last man standing, the man who forces his opponent to give up whether by admittance or by force.

I would like proof that Zoro passed out by choice because he no longer perceived a threat.

Again, it's irrelevant. Zoro passing out after he knocked out his opponent is irrelevant.

Kamazo was defeated before he lost consciousness. Zoro won.

Zoro acknowledged the wound was his own fault.

Wounds don't stop people being the winner in a fight. WInner of a fight is the last man standing or the man who makes his opponent give up verbally or the man who can render his opponent unable to fight while he's able to.

He was conscious after he defeated Kamazo. Benkei is irrelevant in determining whether or not Zoro won.

If you make your opponent give up by force or verbally, that's a win.

Wins are competitions. Once one of the 2 fighters loses the ability to compete while the other is still able to do so, that's as clear as any who the winner is. What happens once that's settled is irrelevant.

In the end, both were incapacitated by the other. Both received a single wound that caused them to no longer be able to carry on the duel.

The flaw with your rationale here is that you're ignoring the fact that Zoro knocked him out and took him out cold.

Once you knock someone out, that doesn't make you the winner? Again, it makes no sense to even argue that.

You've changed the meaning of winning to mean one must not lose consciousness in order to be deemed the winner which is really nonsensical.

What is so absurd here is that you claim that once a character has been dealt a fatal wound, no matter how things play out, there's no possibility of anyone being deemed the winner in that duel.

Wounds and Winning are 2 distinct things. Winning is an act, Wounds are a condition.

Not sure where you conjured the idea that a wound is now the definition of winning, losing or drawing... the reality is the last man standing in a fight is the winner. What happens after is irrelevant after a winner has been decided. Wounds can and do play a role in who wins a fight, but ultimately, the last man standing is the winner.

You can tell yourself that Zoro didn't win, but you'll simply be deceiving yourself. It's simply a fact. How this is even being debated is ridiculous in itself.

No matter how long you're conscious for, if you force your opponent to give up whether it's by making them admit defeat or by making them lose consciousness before you do, you're simply the winner. The act of winning in a fight is simply making your opponent give up before you do.

With your reasoning, Aokiji vs Akainu would have had no winner because...

• Aokiji and Akainu were both severely and grievously injured.

Akainu would probably have lost consciousness even after Aokiji was unable to fight because both were severely injured after fighting for 10 days. Akainu would probably have bled to death or gone into unconsciousness given that he was severely wounded.

Your definition of winning fights isn't consistent with this Manga and any other Manga where fighting is relevant.

I simply think it was a draw.

A draw is only possible if both admit to being unable to defeating the other, both can't defeat the other or both knock each other out at the same time.

Soon we'll be arguing about what defines an injury when that is obvious. The new rule will be, if there's no scream, I guess that will mean it's not an injury?

 

[Pirate Queen]

This is new where I actually have no one agreeing with an assessment of a OP fight. Not a single person.

Huh, maybe I am wrong

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

This is new where I actually have no one agreeing with an assessment of a OP fight. Not a single person.

Huh, maybe I am wrong

This might be taken arrogantly, but personally in being honest and let it be taken as it may, not being agreed with doesn't necessarily mean you're wrong in an argument or debate. Consensus is not evidence for something being true, consensus only shows the portion of people that ascribe to a certain belief or idea.

Quite a few of the things that are now considered today to be true and fundamental in human advancement were originally regarded as heretical and ridiculed. Galileo said that the Sun was actually the centre of the universe when many believed it the Earth was the centre of the universe or our solar system, many centuries later, while he was persecuted for this belief and heresy, turns out he was correct.

If something is true, it doesn't matter whether or not people believe it. Facts and truths don't change just because people don't accept them.

You're free to believe that Zoro didn't win, but then, you have to be consistent with your definition of win or the criteria if it's to be taken seriously. If you believe Zoro's fight is not a win, then you surely have to believe that Luffy has not won many of the fights that the Manga has said he won.

Issue here is our definition differs. It would be like we decide to claim who is stronger between Caesar and Luffy. Let's say we're still at Punk Hazard and the latest chapter was where Luffy was defeated by Caesar. If we're arguing who is stronger:

• I say: Since Caesar won the fight, he's stronger than Luffy - it means my definition of strength is the ability to win a fight.
• You say: Luffy's stronger, he can break walls with his fist, push buildings aside, split mountains in half, etc. Luffy is stronger. - it means you define strength as ability to impose one's self physically whether it's to destroy or to move an object; winning is not necessarily evidence of being the stronger.

In this argument, you are correct because strength by definition refers to physical ability. Strength and Winning fights are not the same thing. Strength refers to physical power while Winning fights refers to skill, intelligence and ability to make sure one can guarantee they're the last person standing. While I'm wrong, what I should be saying is Luffy is stronger, but in this fight, Caesar showed he's proficient at making sure he's the last man standing, potentially a smarter fighter than Luffy or just better at winning fights.

This is really the issue here. Your definition of winning, is it correct?

You also don't seem to have a clear cut definition of winning. You just say Zoro didn't win without a criteria, whereas I'm saying there is a clear-cut definition, and that's whomever can impose their will against another and force them to admit defeat verbally or by non-verbal methods which is by knocking them out or leaving them incapacitated or dead.

Only thing I can really say regarding your criteria is that when you assessed Zoro, you simply stated that Kamazo landed a blow that later led to his falling unconscious, and in the very same vein, you stated that when Luffy fought Hody, he won even though Hody's blow also did the same thing to him where he more or less lost consciousness from losing blood like Zoro. By your criteria, Luffy didn't win against Hody.

If this is how I define your definition based on how you assessed Zoro, the winner of a fight is someone who incapacitates their opponent whilst retaining consciousness, however if they later lose consciousness as a result of a blow received from the felled opponent, it's no longer a victory, but a stalemate.

Can't say I've ever seen this criteria you've used in any fighting Manga before. I've grown up on Manga like DBZ and HxH, and the criteria has never been of this nature.

End of the day, if you believe this or anything, only thing you can do when you're in the minority is really ascertain that your definition is undoubtedly correct and honestly not due to being clouded by anything. If you're absolutely certain with your answer after re-examining and still align with said view, then so be it. More so, even if people disagree with your view, if there's consistency in your view, it's much easier to accept is as genuine and not some sort of contrived logical fallacy.

 

[King Moe]

Injuries are unpredictable. Even for One Piece universe, where characters can survive fatal ones.

The real reason Zoro passed out was because the plot required it.

Idk, Zoro admits his fault so doubt its plot and plus he been having easy opponents until now lately so now we seeing his current limit probably.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 9, 2019, Original Post Date: Apr 9, 2019 ---

This is new where I actually have no one agreeing with an assessment of a OP fight. Not a single person.

Huh, maybe I am wrong

Nah, your good. There are a few agree with you. Just don't expect everyone on forum here to agree as there always those who won't agree with you.

 

[nik87]

Idk, Zoro admits his fault so doubt its plot and plus he been having easy opponents until now lately so now we seeing his current limit probably.

Zoro admits his fault...as a reason for what exactly?

 

[Pirate Queen]

You're free to believe that Zoro didn't win, but then, you have to be consistent with your definition of win or the criteria if it's to be taken seriously. If you believe Zoro's fight is not a win, then you surely have to believe that Luffy has not won many of the fights that the Manga has said he won.

When have I not been consistant with my definition of winning?

I DONT believe Luffy has WON (Using your definition of the word win) many of the fights others have placed in Luffys win column.

Luffy vs Katakuri = Luffy Won... I have always argued that fight in the context that those within the story (Brluee and others) claimed Luffy won. Luffy never declared himself the Victor. On fact it is rare Luffy says HE won. Usually its WE won.

It it OTHERS that declare Luffy the winner in most situations

Luffy's idea of winning is to stop the bad guy, which he does.

Say what you want about what I consider a Win/Loss, but my idea of truly winning a fight has not changed in all the years I have debated One Piece.

Why I consider Luffy/Hody DIFFERENTLY than Zoro's situation is because of what happened AFTER the Jones fight. Instead of getting medical treatment, he had to deal with Noah. It was an extra step beyond the battle that really floored him. Zoro was just stabbed and collapsed.

Regardless, the forum doesnt have enough people willing to admit when they are wrong, which I am doing here. Perhaps I can be an example to others in the future.

 

[King Moe]

Zoro admits his fault...as a reason for what exactly?

Shows more that nothing like poison or hunger lead to his defeat, just him being sloppy on his skills to get injured and fainted.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 9, 2019, Original Post Date: Apr 9, 2019 ---

When have I not been consistant with my definition of winning?

I DONT believe Luffy has WON (Using your definition of the word win) many of the fights others have placed in Luffys win column.

Luffy vs Katakuri = Luffy Won... I have always argued that fight in the context that those within the story (Brluee and others) claimed Luffy won. Luffy never declared himself the Victor. On fact it is rare Luffy says HE won. Usually its WE won.

It it OTHERS that declare Luffy the winner in most situations

Luffy's idea of winning is to stop the bad guy, which he does.

Say what you want about what I consider a Win/Loss, but my idea of truly winning a fight has not changed in all the years I have debated One Piece.

Why I consider Luffy/Hody DIFFERENTLY than Zoro's situation is because of what happened AFTER the Jones fight. Instead of getting medical treatment, he had to deal with Noah. It was an extra step beyond the battle that really floored him. Zoro was just stabbed and collapsed.

Regardless, the forum doesnt have enough people willing to admit when they are wrong, which I am doing here. Perhaps I can be an example to others in the future.

They have pride and feel like if they said they are wrong, that no one will respect them again. That's why you also don't see those who wanted their theories to be proven change the topic or twist things that they didn't get anything wrong at all or just not talk about it either. We can only hope more that new members come along and follow your and others example more.

 

[nik87]

Shows more that nothing like poison or hunger lead to his defeat, just him being sloppy on his skills to get injured and fainted.

Reason for getting injured and a reason for fainting are different. Which one are you talking about? Since in your reply to Fox666 you seem to be mixing those two into one. Also, remind me, who has defeated Zoro?

 

[King Moe]

Reason for getting injured and a reason for fainting are different. Which one are you talking about? Since in your reply to Fox666 you seem to be mixing those two into one. Also, remind me, who has defeated Zoro?

A lot were convinced there was outside forces about it, but clearly it was all Zoro's fault he went down as he stated about it.

We talking pre-timeskip or post-timeskip?

 

[nik87]

A lot were convinced there was outside forces about it, but clearly it was all Zoro's fault he went down as he stated about it.

We talking pre-timeskip or post-timeskip?

I am asking you about your reply to Fox666. Are you speaking about a reason why he got injured or why he fainted?

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

When have I not been consistant with my definition of winning?

I DONT believe Luffy has WON (Using your definition of the word win) many of the fights others have placed in Luffys win column.

Luffy vs Katakuri = Luffy Won... I have always argued that fight in the context that those within the story (Brluee and others) claimed Luffy won. Luffy never declared himself the Victor. On fact it is rare Luffy says HE won. Usually its WE won.

It it OTHERS that declare Luffy the winner in most situations

Luffy's idea of winning is to stop the bad guy, which he does.

Say what you want about what I consider a Win/Loss, but my idea of truly winning a fight has not changed in all the years I have debated One Piece.

Why I consider Luffy/Hody DIFFERENTLY than Zoro's situation is because of what happened AFTER the Jones fight. Instead of getting medical treatment, he had to deal with Noah. It was an extra step beyond the battle that really floored him. Zoro was just stabbed and collapsed.

Regardless, the forum doesnt have enough people willing to admit when they are wrong, which I am doing here. Perhaps I can be an example to others in the future.

You've not been consistent because you deem Luffy vs Hody Luffy's win even though he got impaled by Hody and lost consciousness after whereas Zoro is in the exact same situation here. He defeated Kamazo just like Luffy defeated Hody before losing consciousness, and only lost consciousness after Kamazo was defeated. If Luffy's a win against Hody, then so should be Zoro's fight against Kamazo.

You've been therefore inconsistent, a double standard. Your apparent consistent definition is by no means consistent. It arbitrarily favours Luffy but condemns Zoro even though the context is the exact same.

In fact, by the standard you set, it's incredible that you regard Luffy and Katakuri a win even though both lost consciousness shortly after their bout.

 

[King Moe]

I am asking you about your reply to Fox666. Are you speaking about a reason why he got injured or why he fainted?

I was debunking them as a cause to why he went down to to the ground as you remember many were saying on it being poison or he was hunger, but that doesn't look to be the case why he fallen and fainted as shown about it.

 

[nik87]

I was debunking them as a cause to why he went down to to the ground as you remember many were saying on it being poison or he was hunger, but that doesn't look to be the case why he fallen and fainted as shown about it.

Fox666 said that the reason for Zoro passing out is plot.
You said in reply to that, that the reason why Zoro passed out is because he admitted his fault.

Explain to us all how does admitting his fault for getting injured has anything to do with a reason why Zoro passed out, which Fox666 speaks about.

 

[kcd]

You've not been consistent because you deem Luffy vs Hody Luffy's win even though he got impaled by Hody and lost consciousness after whereas Zoro is in the exact same situation here. He defeated Kamazo just like Luffy defeated Hody before losing consciousness, and only lost consciousness after Kamazo was defeated. If Luffy's a win against Hody, then so should be Zoro's fight against Kamazo.

You've been therefore inconsistent, a double standard. Your apparent consistent definition is by no means consistent. It arbitrarily favours Luffy but condemns Zoro even though the context is the exact same.

In fact, by the standard you set, it's incredible that you regard Luffy and Katakuri a win even though both lost consciousness shortly after their bout.

You know... I think the issue here was that Zoro refused to decapitate the guy.
If Zoro had simply gone on and cut off his head or something, then maybe everyone would agree he won. At the very least, those few extra seconds would've been enough to do that, right?
Of course it was very clear Zoro was the victor. How can it be called a draw when Zoro had the choice of either "killing or sparing" him in those few seconds he stood conscious. We really need a chapter. It's quite intriguing what we argue these days.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

You've not been consistent because you deem Luffy vs Hody Luffy's win even though he got impaled by Hody and lost consciousness after whereas Zoro is in the exact same situation here. He defeated Kamazo just like Luffy defeated Hody before losing consciousness, and only lost consciousness after Kamazo was defeated. If Luffy's a win against Hody, then so should be Zoro's fight against Kamazo.

You've been therefore inconsistent, a double standard. Your apparent consistent definition is by no means consistent. It arbitrarily favours Luffy but condemns Zoro even though the context is the exact same.

In fact, by the standard you set, it's incredible that you regard Luffy and Katakuri a win even though both lost consciousness shortly after their bout.

What was that other series about samurai called? Samurai Champloo? Anyhow, I recall in the last episode there was this final boss — sunflower samurai. And one of the two main characters - the one with glasses, defeated him by letting the sunflower dude's katana pierce through his stomach, which, if I recall correctly, lead to him fainting shortly after.

I'm bringing this up because it's a similar situation here. Zoro won, but people are having issues with his durability.

Fox666 said that the reason for Zoro passing out is plot.
You said in reply to that, that the reason why Zoro passed out is because he admitted his fault.

Explain to us all how does admitting his fault for getting injured has anything to do with a reason why Zoro passed out, which Fox666 speaks about.

Plot things aside, if we're being honest with what the chapter indicated, then I think it's quite obvious that Zoro fainted because of the injury, not because he lost way too much blood as he fainted seconds after defeating Kamazou. Maybe it has something to do with him being hungry but man Sanji as a small kid starved for 70 days straight and not once did he faint.

It is a win for Zoro technically, but as a character he gets an L. That's my opinion. He should have been able to remain conscious.

 

[Pirate Queen]

You've not been consistent because you deem Luffy vs Hody Luffy's win even though he got impaled by Hody and lost consciousness after whereas Zoro is in the exact same situation here. He defeated Kamazo just like Luffy defeated Hody before losing consciousness, and only lost consciousness after Kamazo was defeated. If Luffy's a win against Hody, then so should be Zoro's fight against Kamazo.

You've been therefore inconsistent, a double standard. Your apparent consistent definition is by no means consistent. It arbitrarily favours Luffy but condemns Zoro even though the context is the exact same.

In fact, by the standard you set, it's incredible that you regard Luffy and Katakuri a win even though both lost consciousness shortly after their bout.

You are going out of your way to ignore what I am writing.

Did Zoro have the large task of breaking up a ship as large as Fishman island after he got stabbed? No? Then it was different than Luffy's situation. You can literally see Luffy struggling to destroy the ship and over exerting himself. That pushed him over the edge, not the bite alone.

Again, your not LISTENING! I never said Luffy won his fight with Katakuri! I said those around him considered it a win and that's how I address it in my discussion!

I have been consistant, your just being ridiculous at this point

 

[nik87]

Did Zoro have the large task of breaking up a ship as large as Fishman island after he got stabbed? No? Then it was different than Luffy's situation. You can literally see Luffy struggling to destroy the ship and over exerting himself. That pushed him over the edge, not the bite alone.

Pushing himself to the edge doesnt require a blood transfusion. Losing blood from a bite wound however does and you yourself said it matters not how long it took till he hit the ground...

Plot things aside, if we're being honest with what the chapter indicated, then I think it's quite obvious that Zoro fainted because of the injury, not because he lost way too much blood as he fainted seconds after defeating Kamazou. Maybe it has something to do with him being hungry but man Sanji as a small kid starved for 70 days straight and not once did he faint.

It is a win for Zoro technically, but as a character he gets an L. That's my opinion. He should have been able to remain conscious.

Admitting his fault for getting injured is not a reason why Zoro passed out, what Moe said in his response. It's not even Zoro's fault, he is just being hard on himself, other characters have been in similar situations and havent blamed themselves for it.

We all know the reason why Zoro was injured - because of Gyukimaru's intervention.
However, the reason why Zoro passed out - nobody knows for sure. Several things are being considered and the only thing that's being pointed out is his stomach growling. Whoever wants to buy hunger as the reason for passing out be my guest, I, however, am not buying it.
Whoever buys the blood loss as reason for passing out, same thing. Whoever wants to buy the injury as reason why he passed out, same thing.
None of those reasons make any sense considering it's Zoro we are talking about. Fox666's bet on plot is pretty good bet, unless in next chapter or chapters later we get more information on why it happened and reinforces one of the other reasons or brings in a new reason.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Pushing himself to the edge doesnt require a blood transfusion. Losing blood from a bite wound however does and you yourself said it matters not how long it took till he hit the ground...


Admitting his fault for getting injured is not a reason why Zoro passed out, what Moe said in his response. It's not even Zoro's fault, he is just being hard on himself, other characters have been in similar situations and havent blamed themselves for it.

We all know the reason why Zoro was injured - because of Gyukimaru's intervention.
However, the reason why Zoro passed out - nobody knows for sure. Several things are being considered and the only thing that's being pointed out is his stomach growling. Whoever wants to buy hunger as the reason for passing out be my guest, I, however, am not buying it.
Whoever buys the blood loss as reason for passing out, same thing. Whoever wants to buy the injury as reason why he passed out, same thing.
None of those reasons make any sense considering it's Zoro we are talking about. Fox666's bet on plot is pretty good bet, unless in next chapter or chapters later we get more information on why it happened and reinforces one of the other reasons or brings in a new reason.

Luffy/Hody ended correct? And instead of getting medical help Luffy attacked Noah. This isnt difficult to understand.