One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Whitebeard = Gura + Haki on Oden's level

Bare in mind this is the minimum for Whitebeard. Which begs to question exactly how much haki Roger needed to be able to compete with that, or even be better? Probably more than current Shanks? Definitely more than Rayleigh and Garp, right?

Unless Oda puts out a haki level chart showing on a scale of 1 to 100 how much/how strong a person's haki is... We may never know. I think once you reach the pinnacle of the OP world any Top tier can defeat a top tier within certain conditions. The only exception the the rule is Roger and Rocks who were said to be above everyone.

Blackbeard is probably going to be above them.

Usually Shounen final villans require teamwork to defeat.

Kaguya(Naruto), Yaweh(Bleach), Buu (dbz)

Getting a bit off topic I know... but I think Roger's haki was at the highest it could be. Did he have FS? Idk, I would assume so. Maybe he was the one who developed Rayleigh's haki of "Internal damage". Maybe that's what made him as strong as he was.

This newer Advanced CoA changes the game and would explain why people like Shanks are so strong and standing up to monsters like Kaido and Whitebeard without being a monster himself....

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Blackbeard is probably going to be above them.

That's if you think Blackbeard will be the final villain. IMO, he won't. He's one of the Yonko and will go down in the Yonko Saga arc. I don't even consider him the strongest Yonko - of course such a description doesn't exist when speaking of Yonkos.
The final villain is most likely going to be Im Sama and his WG loyals, or at least partially WG related.
This is about when Luffy's legendary status will likely get cemented permanently in the OP world and when he'll be truly above Roger.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 23, 2019, Original Post Date: Nov 23, 2019 ---

I think enough people had made it clear that Roger was WB's superior in almost everything or else i would agree with you.

I agree with you here but there's just that one flaw. WB mastered his DF while Roger had no DF to be mastered.
Whitebeard wins in that department.

 

[Ero-Sanji]

There's nothing to indicate that Roger was stronger than WB, just like there is nothing to indicate that Roger was stronger than Garp. They were equals, and treated each other as such. Now, this might change in the future, we'll have to wait and see, but as of yet, Oda has portrayed them as equals.

That's if you think Blackbeard will be the final villain. IMO, he won't. He's one of the Yonko and will go down in the Yonko Saga arc. I don't even consider him the strongest Yonko - of course such a description doesn't exist when speaking of Yonkos.
The final villain is most likely going to be Im Sama and his WG loyals, or at least partially WG related.
This is about when Luffy's legendary status will likely get cemented permanently in the OP world and when he'll be truly above Roger.

That's a bold prediction. IMO, everything points to him being the last villain. He's anti-Luffy.
We're currently in the Yonko Saga and I can't see BB get taken down in it. My guess is that he's going to come out of it even stronger, having taken Kaido's devil fruit.

 

[Pirate Queen]

There's nothing to indicate that Roger was stronger than WB, just like there is nothing to indicate that Roger was stronger than Garp. They were equals, and treated each other as such. Now, this might change in the future, we'll have to wait and see, but as of yet, Oda has portrayed them as equals.



That's a bold prediction. IMO, everything points to him being the last villain. He's anti-Luffy.
We're currently in the Yonko Saga and I can't see BB get taken down in it. My guess is that he's going to come out of it even stronger, having taken Kaido's devil fruit.

Respectfully disagree. We have multiple top tiers standing Roger stood above all, even WB. We as reader have no basis to dispute this until we get further information. In fact, almost everything indicates Roger was > Whitebeard

You cant come at this saying they were equal when they were anything but, according to the likes of Sengoku, Garp, Akainu, Rayliegh and the like. And now further information tells us Roger was on par with a man even above Whitebeard who was Roger's WORST rival and even needed to combine forces with Garp. Whether he could have solo's Rocks is highly presumptuous when he leads a crew of 4 Potential Yonko.

 

[Ice devil slayer]

Oden was strong enough to worry Whitebeard, even though I'm sure that "Wano WB" is nothing compared to "post-Roger WB".

I wonder why Whitebeard did not try to save Wano from Kaido.
I also wonder if that beach should be rebranded as the "Lucky Landing Port".

Well if you say that..we can say that the Oden who clashed with WB here is nothing compared to the Oden who fought kaido too

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

There's nothing to indicate that Roger was stronger than WB, just like there is nothing to indicate that Roger was stronger than Garp. They were equals, and treated each other as such.

Like @Lexusflame said, there's everything to indicate that Roger was superior to Whitebeard. Where WB was most likely a commander in the Rocks crew, Roger was taking them down and he won that pirate battle (along with Garp).
It's even noted that Rocks was Roger's most formidable opponent among pirates, not Whitebeard.
And among the Marines, it was Garp.

Stop disregarding canon buddy!

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 23, 2019, Original Post Date: Nov 23, 2019 ---

Well if you say that..we can say that the Oden who clashed with WB here is nothing compared to the Oden who fought kaido too

Obviously, I wonder if he made the same move with Roger, rushing and clashing with him before seducing him to allow him join the Greatest Pirate Crew.
The silhouettes of him on Oro Jackson and the way he's respected by Roger says a lot about how much he'd grown and his strength in the crew.
It's not even far-off too think he was on par with Rayleigh at that point but all the more need to see how Oda narrates his power level and adventures.

Finally, the mystery of Oden is getting solved. Another tick off the box for Oda and his world of mysteries.
I hope he settles the mystery of Dr. Vega Punk next.

 

[Ero-Sanji]

Respectfully disagree. We have multiple top tiers standing Roger stood above all, even WB. We as reader have no basis to dispute this until we get further information. In fact, almost everything indicates Roger was > Whitebeard

You cant come at this saying they were equal when they were anything but, according to the likes of Sengoku, Garp, Akainu, Rayliegh and the like. And now further information tells us Roger was on par with a man even above Whitebeard who was Roger's WORST rival and even needed to combine forces with Garp. Whether he could have solo's Rocks is highly presumptuous when he leads a crew of 4 Potential Yonko.

1. The people you mentioned are Marines who either a) are regurgitating Marine propaganda and/or b) have absolutely no idea of what Whitebeard's dream was. During almost the entire first half of the series we were left with one big question:

If Whitebeard is so strong that he could go toe-to-toe with the Pirate king himself, something half of the people you brought up have said themselves, why isn't he Pirate King now? This is even something that Ace couldn't even understand, which is something we know because Akainu taunted him about it. This question was left unanswered until WB's very last breath. But, once we knew that all WB wanted was a family, it was a wrap. Case closed. He didn't give a rats ass about being Pirate King, or taking over the world or some other stuff like that. We even saw him on Raftel, chilling with Rogers. It meant nothing to him. The title, the promise, the D. Nada. (Sorry, my bad that island was not Raftel.)

2. The Rocks incident. Now, like I said, there could be more information to dispute my opinion, but as of yet this incident is shrouded in mystery. First of all, the beauty of One Piece is that power levels change. Sengoku even said so himself. Kaido and Big Mom are far stronger today than they were back then. Why wouldn't this apply to Whitebeard? Look at Luffy and Smoker. That difference occurred in 2-3 years, WB had decades to catch up, if he were ever behind. Look at Blackbeard, everything is pointing at him becoming the worst thing ever, yet he was nothing compared to a dying WB. Second, Buggy, a first hand witness introduced us to WB as the only one to tie with the Pirate king. (Buggy then went on to expose his own ignorance by claiming that WB was closest to One Piece, when in reality he might have been furthest from it, having absolutely zero interest in it.) Third, Garp was Vice-Admiral at the incident. Was he stronger than the admirals and even the fleet-admiral, at the time? We don't know, but if you suggest so, then why couldn't Whitebeard have been stronger than Rocks? His dream of having a family might have been the basis of his loyalty. Like I said that whole incident is too vague in order for us to draw any conclusions from it.

Stop disregarding canon buddy!

Not disregarding it. Only claiming that the canon is not fully explained and if you base your argument on what a Marine has to say. Well, then it is canon that Robin murdered her entire island. What I'm trying to say is that it's too early to draw conclusions from that incident. Sengoku wasn't even there.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

We don't know, but if you suggest so, then why couldn't Whitebeard have been stronger than Rocks? His dream of having a family might have been the basis of his loyalty. Like I said that whole incident is too vague in order for us to draw any conclusions from it.

"His dream of having a family might have been the basis of his loyalty"
This doesn't sound well cos we've been told the Rocks crew is like a gathering of the biggest and baddest all in one with Xebec leading them. Where there are instances of guys murdering each other and stuff. How can WB hope to maintain that dream in such a tumultuous crew?

Whitebeard cannot be stronger than Rocks at the time their crew was crushed. This is because there have been no single time where a very powerful crew has a subordinate stronger than its captain.
It's like claiming someone in the Beast Pirate Crew is stronger than Kaido, or one of the commanders in the BMP is stronger than Big Mom, or there's one of BB's executive who is stronger than BB, or even claiming Shanks is not the strongest in his crew.

TOTAL ABSURDITY!!!

Sengoku also narrated and implied that 3 of the 4 Yonko present at God Valley were much inferior to the Yonko version of themselves. That includes Whitebeard. He wasn't born a legend, he grew to become one like every other legendary figure we know of.

There's a reason Whitebeard was nerfed with old age and sickness at Marineford while everyone there kept imagining how Primebeard would've been. Meanwhile, Primebeard was the guy who was said to rival Roger.

Basically take Marineford Whitebeard (with the DF), remove old age, sickness, restore his youthful looks, add in his CoO and we've got Primebeard.
And that's the level Weevil is said to be at.

It's very apparent that Whitebeard was not at Roger's level during the God Valley incident. He grew stronger afterwards and closed that power gap achieving what we know today as PRIMEBEARD and becoming Roger's Sasuke as the years went by.

If Whitebeard was the greater figure, Luffy would be trying to surpass him and not Roger I feel.

 

[McNuss]

That's a bold prediction. IMO, everything points to him being the last villain. He's anti-Luffy.
We're currently in the Yonko Saga and I can't see BB get taken down in it. My guess is that he's going to come out of it even stronger, having taken Kaido's devil fruit.

Im is likely as much Anti-Luffy as Blackbeard, if not more
Basically that is also how my whole Im theory got started... Because a random douchebag is impossible to pass off as the final villain. But Im is guaranteed to be it as the One Piece is needed to defeat the WG, and that means he has to surpass Big Mom, Kaido and especially Blackbeard in terms of impact as a character.

Blackbeard will likely be the final villain before Luffy becomes PK.
I have also heard the theory of Blackbeard getting Kaido's fruit, and I must say it would fit a certain motive pretty well.
However I think it is also highly problematic. It's the "Eyepatch guy" problem. Basically if you give a character an eyepatch, it becomes so iconic that the character becomes the "Eyepatch guy" and you can't give another character an eyepatch. Now Kaido's fruit is even more iconic than an eyepatch considering you will always need a doublespread to fully show its transformation. And technically we already have two characters with that fruit.

 

[Pirate Queen]

1. The people you mentioned are Marines who either a) are regurgitating Marine propaganda and/or b) have absolutely no idea of what Whitebeard's dream was. During almost the entire first half of the series we were left with one big question:

If Whitebeard is so strong that he could go toe-to-toe with the Pirate king himself, something half of the people you brought up have said themselves, why isn't he Pirate King now? This is even something that Ace couldn't even understand, which is something we know because Akainu taunted him about it. This question was left unanswered until WB's very last breath. But, once we knew that all WB wanted was a family, it was a wrap. Case closed. He didn't give a rats ass about being Pirate King, or taking over the world or some other stuff like that. We even saw him on Raftel, chilling with Rogers. It meant nothing to him. The title, the promise, the D. Nada. (Sorry, my bad that island was not Raftel.)

2. The Rocks incident. Now, like I said, there could be more information to dispute my opinion, but as of yet this incident is shrouded in mystery. First of all, the beauty of One Piece is that power levels change. Sengoku even said so himself. Kaido and Big Mom are far stronger today than they were back then. Why wouldn't this apply to Whitebeard? Look at Luffy and Smoker. That difference occurred in 2-3 years, WB had decades to catch up, if he were ever behind. Look at Blackbeard, everything is pointing at him becoming the worst thing ever, yet he was nothing compared to a dying WB. Second, Buggy, a first hand witness introduced us to WB as the only one to tie with the Pirate king. (Buggy then went on to expose his own ignorance by claiming that WB was closest to One Piece, when in reality he might have been furthest from it, having absolutely zero interest in it.) Third, Garp was Vice-Admiral at the incident. Was he stronger than the admirals and even the fleet-admiral, at the time? We don't know, but if you suggest so, then why couldn't Whitebeard have been stronger than Rocks? His dream of having a family might have been the basis of his loyalty. Like I said that whole incident is too vague in order for us to draw any conclusions from it.



Not disregarding it. Only claiming that the canon is not fully explained and if you base your argument on what a Marine has to say. Well, then it is canon that Robin murdered her entire island. What I'm trying to say is that it's too early to draw conclusions from that incident. Sengoku wasn't even there.

Why would Akainu lie about Roger being stronger then WB and WB no dent it? Garp isnt like the other marines and he acknowledged Rogers strength.

Your thought that, because a marine said it you can doubt it doesnt really work when there is other outside evidence to back those claims up.

Roger was the strongest. It's been stated by everyone who has seen or known him personally. Why you disregard it without any facts to back your claims are confusing. It's a weird hill for you to die on

 

[M3J]

I think enough people had made it clear that Roger was WB's superior in almost everything or else i would agree with you.

I'm well aware of that and still challenge their claims if they didn't see it firsthand or even specify that Roger usually beat Whitebeard in fights. It's manga, and it's Oda, they can easily change this to mean anything.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I'm well aware of that and still challenge their claims if they didn't see it firsthand or even specify that Roger usually beat Whitebeard in fights. It's manga, and it's Oda, they can easily change this to mean anything.

Garp saw it first hand, Sengoku saw it firsthand, Rayliegh saw it firsthand, Whitebeard, Shiki, Shanks, Big Mom... all saw Roger's strength first hand

 

[King Moe]

If that was the case his second sword should have been able to cut Kaido as well.... It could not. So Enma is the deciding factor here

So it's more magic sword factor or Kaido let himself to get harm as usual.

 

[AmitDS]

I don't think WB was ever the WSM while Roger was alive (before the Great Pirate Era), he must've only been called that epithet after. Just as Roger was called PK after successfully conquering Raftel.

Also the Roger that became Pirate King was a weaker version of Roger since he was growing terminally ill before that final voyage. So I disagree, Roger was either already at his peak before he became PK, or never hit it (which is absurd). How else would he have been able to defeat the greatest pirate at that time, Rocks?

It is well hinted that Roger and Garp hit their prime way before the likes of WB and BM.

According to the vivre card for WB, he was called the strongest before the Great Pirate Era also it has never been hinted or shown that Garp and Roger were at their primes 40 years ago while Big Mom and WB were not despite them all being around the same age. All we know is that back then Garp and Roger united to take on Rocks and came out on top.

Let's forget Kaido who was an apprentice but if Big Mom was no where near her prime 40 years ago it stands to reason that Garp, WB and Roger were not either, especially since Roger and WB earned their titles later.

We don't even know if his illness affected his performance and growth power-wise or affected him outside of giving him a limit on how long he can live. It is not likely that Roger became the king of pirates at his weakest.

After all, if Buggy and Shanks were around when Roger's crew clashed with WB's (as Shanks and Buggy remember) and this was right before they found Raftel then it further supports Roger being at his strongest at this time. If that were not the case WB would have been clearly superior in these bouts.

I may be wrong if new info comes up later but for not the manga and vivre cards point to WB and Roger's primes being around 20 years ago when WB/Big Mom were new emperors, Roger became PK and WB was already WSM.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

We don't even know if his illness affected his performance and growth power-wise or affected him outside of giving him a limit on how long he can live. It is not likely that Roger became the king of pirates at his weakest.

Illnesses always affect strength. He may not have been at his weakest, but it definitely affected him.
Just look at Whitebeard in Marineford, he kept going on even in sickness. Roger's isn't any different.

According to the vivre card for WB, he was called the strongest before the Great Pirate Era also it has never been hinted or shown that Garp and Roger were at their primes 40 years ago while Big Mom and WB were not despite them all being around the same age. All we know is that back then Garp and Roger united to take on Rocks and came out on top

I'll give you this one even though those vivre cards have been inaccurate sometimes.

What Roger and Garp did was something remarkable and was testament to their peak strength (or close to it).
When it comes to been prime, generally the ages between 35 and 55 seem consistent with most characters.
• Current Yonko like Kaido, Shanks, Blackbeard, fall in this age group.
• The Admirals - Akainu, Fujitora, Kizaru, Kuzan, (Greenbull too once we get his full reveal) are all considered to be in their prime and fall in this age group.
• Most of the Shichibukai - Mihawk, Kuma, Doffy, (even Weevil unsurprisingly) and a few others are also in their prime and around this age.
• Yonko commanders like Katakuri, Marco, Jozu, Smoothie, Queen, Benn Beckman, all fall in this age group.
• Other powerful characters like Perospero, Oven, Vergo, and many others likewise belong there.

Therefore it's not farfetched to think Roger reached his prime during the God Valley incident and maintained peak strength or continued to grow stronger until his death at 53.
He was in his prime, just as Kaido and Shanks are currently in their prime.
It means throughout their life, both Roger and Newgate were at their strongest between 35-55 years of age. So Roger died while still in his prime (albeit ill). He definitely wasn't at his strongest during his final voyage that I'm certain.

Most characters start to dwindle and get weaker once they're approaching 60 and beyond (take Chin Jiao for example, and every living legend in the story). The only exception to this is BIG MOM.
She seems to be getting stronger as she ages and is even said to be at her strongest currently. So her case is very unique.

So yeah, if we go by the consistency of what is considered to be prime age, i.e 35-55, the triple threat of Roger, Garp, and Whitebeard reached their prime 40 years ago, and during the 20 year of prime time from then on, they each attained their greatest achievements and were at the peak of their strength within that 20 years interval.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 23, 2019, Original Post Date: Nov 23, 2019 ---

Like Big Mom, Luffy's also going to be an exception since he'll most likely reach his prime by 20 and should maintain peak strength till the usual decline of strength at around age 60. That's if he lives that long. I do remember he had shortened his life at Impel Down and Marineford when he overextended himself beyond his limits.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

This latest chapter has me wondering how much Enma actually played a factor in harming Kaido.

Oden is clearly no pushover and presumably much stronger at the time he faces Kaido, and yet Enma was the only blade that could pierce Kaido's flesh.

hiyori stated that enma is the only sword that can wound kaido, so the other sword probably is not a factor here
the blade is crazy strong. Zoro gets yonko-tier sword, man.

 

[nik87]

hiyori stated that enma is the only sword that can wound kaido, so the other sword probably is not a factor here
the blade is crazy strong. Zoro gets yonko-tier sword, man.

I think it is about the user, not about the sword.
It is not enough to have just large amount of Haki, the most important thing is to have control over it which even someone who is talented for CoA like Zoro didnt have completely under control but within the same chapter, he made it obey his Will. It only shows how good at CoA Zoro really is.
We just saw a high tier clash between Oden and WB that CoC sparks are shooting out and we saw that Enma does nothing different in that clash than the Snakeslayer sword, as I suspected from the start.

Why it is only Enma that scarred Kaido is uncertain, it could be several reasons. He didnt have 2nd sword in that moment or splitting the power among 2 swords wasnt enough to hurt Kaido and he decided to put all power into one sword or the Snakeslayer was blocked by the club and only Enma landed a direct hit... The list can go on but we will see it sooner or later.
In the end, the sword is nothing if the swordsman is not exceptional. Shutenmaru gave Oden quite a fight it seems but still wasnt able to tame the sword, his control over CoA is not on Zoro's level. Things are being set up so that the grandmaster's name reaches even the heavens.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I think it is about the user, not about the sword.
It is not enough to have just large amount of Haki, the most important thing is to have control over it which even someone who is talented for CoA like Zoro didnt have completely under control but within the same chapter, he made it obey his Will. It only shows how good at CoA Zoro really is.
We just saw a high tier clash between Oden and WB that CoC sparks are shooting out and we saw that Enma does nothing different in that clash than the Snakeslayer sword, as I suspected from the start.

Why it is only Enma that scarred Kaido is uncertain, it could be several reasons. He didnt have 2nd sword in that moment or splitting the power among 2 swords wasnt enough to hurt Kaido and he decided to put all power into one sword or the Snakeslayer was blocked by the club and only Enma landed a direct hit... The list can go on but we will see it sooner or later.
In the end, the sword is nothing if the swordsman is not exceptional. Shutenmaru gave Oden quite a fight it seems but still wasnt able to tame the sword, his control over CoA is not on Zoro's level. Things are being set up so that the grandmaster's name reaches even the heavens.

Everything is pointing to the sword being special as opposed to the wielder being special, as of this moment. Wont know the truth until we see Kaido vs Oden... Which I hope Oda doesnt skip over.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 23, 2019, Original Post Date: Nov 23, 2019 ---

hiyori stated that enma is the only sword that can wound kaido, so the other sword probably is not a factor here
the blade is crazy strong. Zoro gets yonko-tier sword, man.

There shouldn't be a YONKO tier sword tho. Swords should reflect the wielders ability, not bring about abilities of it's own. Enma being a magic swords turns everything we know about swords on its face.

But like I said, Kaido has an x shaped scar so I wanna see how that came about. Make explain some things

 

[Fox666]

Enma multiplies the strength of the swordman.

Oden is strong enough to fight evenly with Whitebeard and send the rest of the Whitbeard Pirates flying.

Multiply Oden's power and not even Kaido is safe.

The same is not true for Zoro, for example.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Enma multiplies the strength of the swordman.

Oden is strong enough to fight evenly with Whitebeard and send the rest of the Whitbeard Pirates flying.

Multiply Oden's power and not even Kaido is safe.

The same is not true for Zoro, for example.

What? How? How does it multiply the strength of the swordsman? That not how it works.... Enma pulls haki from its wielder, unless the wielder has a degree of haki mastery