One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[HereNThere]

While Sanji couldn't break through the wall, the smashed it. Is that not the equivalent of breaking the neck of a Pacifista, or damaging its internal components?

That's hard to say. To me, damaging the material enough to destroy the internal components with a single kick means that the material shouldn't have withstood the number of kicks Sanji dealt to it. I would think that both Luffy and Sanji would have needed to deal a few more blows if the Pacifista was as durable as the door in Punk Hazard.

And actually analyzing the panel now, Franky didn't even destroy the door. He's shown holding it after using his Radical Beam. He warped it quite a bit, but it most retains it's form. He just took it off the hinges.

 

[nik87]

What is Zoro doing in the picture I posted? Where does that "explosion" in front of him comes from?

There is nothing to explode in that picture. It is just an effect of Birdcage encountering Zoro who is trying to resist its push.
Even before he reached it, he said he he would stop it, not cut it and called Kinemon to go with him. If he were trying to cut it from the start he would never need Kinemon and the rest to begin with. I repeat, it never occurred to anyone to think about cutting it.

See you aren't even understanding my previous post I didn't say Sanji kicking open another door was a feat I compared the two doors to highlight its SILLY. I've answered EVERYTHING you are saying and keep saying the same thing over and over. Then you bring up Vergo's face melting like that has anything to do with the discussion. Why didn't Franky's beam "melt" Ikaros Much since its so destructive? Why did Franky have to use one of his strongest attacks to down Ikaros Much when Sanji just regular kicked him in the face and accomplished the same thing? I'm failing at getting you to debate door power levels once you start that I'm done it would be a complete joke then

So, you still refuse to post a panel of Sanji kicking the door open? Fine, it is irrelevant anyway.
From the start the question was how destructive Franky's laser was and it is a fact that it is more destructive than Sanji's kicks.
Apparently, according to you, DJ would have melted the doors, however, it didnt even burn Vergo's face.
Franky used his strongest attack because unlike Sanji he obliterates everything, doesnt need to go after weak spots.
Again, Sanji's DC feats are welcome to this discussion but I know that none will appear out of thin air. Sanji is not the type of combatant who is destructive.

So pushing the sharp edges of both his swords while using armament haki to do so does not imply he couldn't cut it? LOL

Zoro pushes edges of his blades when he tries to cut something? LOL You should read the manga to see what Zoro does when he actually tries to cut.

 

[Mwhitt]

There is nothing to explode in that picture. It is just an effect of Birdcage encountering Zoro who is trying to resist its push.
Even before he reached it, he said he he would stop it, not cut it and called Kinemon to go with him. If he were trying to cut it from the start he would never need Kinemon and the rest to begin with. I repeat, it never occurred to anyone to think about cutting it.

So, you still refuse to post a panel of Sanji kicking the door open? Fine, it is irrelevant anyway.
From the start the question was how destructive Franky's laser was and it is a fact that it is more destructive than Sanji's kicks.
Apparently, according to you, DJ would have melted the doors, however, it didnt even burn Vergo's face.
Franky used his strongest attack because unlike Sanji he obliterates everything, doesnt need to go after weak spots.
Again, Sanji's DC feats are welcome to this discussion but I know that none will appear out of thin air. Sanji is not the type of combatant who is destructive.

Zoro pushes edges of his blades when he tries to cut something? LOL You should read the manga to see what Zoro does when he actually tries to cut.

What does Vergo's face have to do with the price of tea in China? Are you reading anything I'm saying or you skim and assume the rest? Read my post above where I posted the links I've posted multiple and I'm not doing it again for you to say the exact same thing. Franky's beam should have melted Ikaros Much if we use your logic and it didn't, it scorched him badly. Sanji's hell memories kick also set ablaze and scorched Wadatsumi a giant fishman. I agree Sanji isn't a destructive type fighter he doesn't have to be he only needs to kick his opposition not the surrounding area but to think he can't cause destruction if he simply attacks the ground instead of his opponent is ridiculous.

Did I say he tried to cut it or did I state what Zoro's action implies. Oh yeah a swordsman whose solution to every problem that threatens his life or the lives of his crewmates is to cut it This one time he thinks well why don't I try something different and push with my blades instead, yeah cause that makes sense. Pica was an issue so he cut him, next the bird cage was an issue and he holds it with everyone else waiting for Doffy to be defeated, just cause right I mean why not? For you to understand requires you to understand context clues which beyond a sword seems foreign to you.

 

[nik87]

What does Vergo's face have to do with the price of tea in China? Are you reading anything I'm saying or you skim and assume the rest? Read my post above where I posted the links I've posted multiple and I'm not doing it again for you to say the exact same thing. Franky's beam should have melted Ikaros Much if we use your logic and it didn't, it scorched him badly. Sanji's hell memories kick also set ablaze and scorched Wadatsumi a giant fishman. I agree Sanji isn't a destructive type fighter he doesn't have to be he only needs to kick his opposition not the surrounding area but to think he can't cause destruction if he simply attacks the ground instead of his opponent is ridiculous.

Did I say he tried to cut it or did I state what Zoro's action implies. Oh yeah a swordsman whose solution to every problem that threatens his life or the lives of his crewmates is to cut it This one time he thinks well why don't I try something different and push with my blades instead, yeah cause that makes sense. Pica was an issue so he cut him, next the bird cage was an issue and he holds it with everyone else waiting for Doffy to be defeated, just cause right I mean why not? For you to understand requires you to understand context clues which beyond a sword seems foreign to you.

If Sanji scorched a balloon in the sky he should have scorched Vergo's face too and by default the doors, according to you. Didnt happen.

As I said, there is not a single instance where anyone tries to cut it, not just Zoro.
No need to go into mental gymnastics because of it, just admit that you dont understand what a plot element is.

 

[Mwhitt]

If Sanji scorched a balloon in the sky he should have scorched Vergo's face too and by default the doors, according to you. Didnt happen.

As I said, there is not a single instance where anyone tries to cut it, not just Zoro.
No need to go into mental gymnastics because of it, just admit that you dont understand what a plot element is.

So now we demean Wadatsumi and plug him into a manga equation of your creation? You are pure comedy dude, gold.

There's no mental gymnastics. Its quite simple actually something that Zoro cuts is a magnificent feat and if he doesn't cut it well thats a plot hole, plot element, Oda tripping again anything but he can't cut it. Definitely a plot element that drove the story forward. I mean why would Zoro cut the cage he just cut mountain God Pica. Good idea armament haki up and place your swords right there and push because that what swordsman do right and because just hell yeah. Sure that works for me. Everyone else seems to ignore you I see why.

 

[nik87]

So now we demean Wadatsumi and plug him into a manga equation of your creation? You are pure comedy dude gold.

There's no mental gymnastics. Its quite simple actually something that Zoro cuts is a magnificent feat and if he doesn't cut it well thats a plot hole, plot element, Oda tripping again anything but he can't cut it. Definitely a plot element that drove the story forward. I mean why would Zoro cut the cage he just cut mountain God Pica. Good idea armament haki up and place your swords right there because just hell yeah. Sure that works for me. Everyone else seems to ignore you I see why.

Yes, yes, I am very sorry Sanji's DJ didnt burn Vergo's face to be used for your argument. Wadatsumi is a balloon, doors are made of steel and Veergo's in middle.
Yes, yes, plot hole, plot elements cannot exist when Zoro is in question. That's why swordsmen who always cut things didnt think of cutting Birdcage... LOL

 

[Mwhitt]

Yes, yes, I am very sorry Sanji's DJ didnt burn Vergo's face to be used for your argument. Wadatsumi is a balloon, doors are made of steel and Veergo's in middle.
Yes, yes, plot hole, plot elements cannot exist when Zoro is in question. That's why swordsmen who always cut things didnt think of cutting Birdcage... LOL

Oh ok forgive me I'm new to sword boy math let me get it together real quick.

So just because Wadatsumi can inflate himself that makes him the same material as a balloon, of course why didn't I think of that so he is a 1 on the hardness scale. So a door is made of steel so that is peak toughness right? So the door is a 3 and naturally Vergo is a 2 based on....just cause right? Cool. So question Franky's beams didn't melt Ikaros Much it only burned him so what is he? A 4? LOL

Oh yes retard the entire island for "plot" its entirely more acceptable that every inhabitant forgot how to use swords instead of them just not being able to cut bird cage. I mean bird cage was so important how it affected the story and all.

 

[nik87]

So just because Wadatsumi can inflate himself that makes him the same material as a balloon, of course why didn't I think of that so he is a 1 on the hardness scale. So a door is made of steel so that is peak toughness right? So the door is a 3 and naturally Vergo is a 2 based on....just cause right? Cool. So question Franky's beams didn't melt Ikaros Much it only burned him so what is he? A 4? LOL

Oh yes retard the entire island for "plot" its entirely more acceptable that every inhabitant forgot how to use swords instead of them just not being able to cut bird cage. I mean bird cage was so important how it affected the story and all.

Mutilation of the bodies is toned down that's why Franky didnt erase Much from existence, on the other hand, why didnt Sanji burn Vergo?
Besides, why did you bring up Wadatsumi in the first place when we are discussing DC stat?

Yes, retarding the entire island for the sake of plot is exactly what happened. You can either play dumb or look it up and see that's exactly what you are trying to deny. Yes, Birdcage was crucial part of DR, that's why it never occurred to anyone to try cutting it. I guess you didnt realize the importance of it...

 

[Fox666]

There is nothing to explode in that picture. It is just an effect of Birdcage encountering Zoro who is trying to resist its push.

IMHO it's clear one of Zoro's flying slash attacks.

There are many layers in the panel, and Zoro is at least 1 building away from the Bird Cage:

There are multiple examples of characters pushing the Bird Cage, and none of them caused an explosion effect.

 

[Aliocha]

The only reason he didn't break the door easily with a regular kick is because it was made of a special material, capable of absorbing shocks

The laboratory lining was made of steel, as noted by sailors

Sanji sent Vergo twice to damage the walls

 

[nik87]

IMHO it's clear one of Zoro's flying slash attacks.
There are many layers in the panel, and Zoro is at least 1 building away from the Bird Cage:

There are multiple examples of characters pushing the Bird Cage, and none of them caused an explosion effect.

Still, there is nothing to explode there and Zoro didnt ask Kinemon and others to morally support his flying slash which doesnt exist...
Zoro is right next to the strings but you dont see them from that impact which his push caused.
If Oda wanted to show Zoro trying to cut it and failing he could have easily done so but he didnt.
The birdcage is the most obvious example of a plot element, it amuses me that people after all this time still think someone tried to cut it...

 

[Fox666]

If Oda wanted to show Zoro trying to cut it and failing he could have easily done so but he didnt.

IMHO he made it very clear that Zoro is attacking the Bird Cage. The "explosion" is not flat, it clear has some 3D quality to it.

Even the story is clear: Kinemon' tells Zoro to stop because it's useless, then Zoro says he won't accept that the Bird Cage cannot be stopped.

I have no idea how you concluded nobody tried to cut the Bird Cage.

Even if you don't believe in a panel which art is clear enough, what about the sound SFX?

It seems to be used when a slash fails to cut something (metal?).

 

[goldb]

It's Sanji, Jimbei, and then Zoro if we judging by feats and performance. After 4 hype tool fights, Zoro lost of his hype since then with whole fanbase and they are measuring him better. Sanji and Jimbei have done better than him looking at the statics.

Who exactly has Sanji faced and defeated in this post timeskip that you would place him above Zoro or even Jinbe?

Even if we were to set that aside or include pre-timeskip feats (both shown and told), Sanji would still rank below these two. Especially since the timeskip, neither have really had to go all out against worthy opponents. After Wano we can re-evaluate that, I think this is the arc that will give us a much clearer picture of where these 3 guys rank, as there are many powerful individual in the enemy's forces.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

IMHO he made it very clear that Zoro is attacking the Bird Cage. The "explosion" is not flat, it clear has some 3D quality to it.

Even the story is clear: Kinemon' tells Zoro to stop because it's useless, then Zoro says he won't accept that the Bird Cage cannot be stopped.

I have no idea how you concluded nobody tried to cut the Bird Cage.

Even if you don't believe in a panel which art is clear enough, what about the sound SFX?

It seems to be used when a slash fails to cut something (metal?).

I think this goes to show that there were only 3 people who could defeat Doffy in Dressrosa.

1. Fujitora: He could've taken down Doffy but decided to leave it at the hands of the man he gambled on - no other than Luffy.
Let's not forget that another Admiral level character - Aokiji - would've defeated Doffy earlier (of course with some difficulty) were it not for his somewhat rational thinking.

2. Sabo: He also trusted in Luffy to take down Joker and decided not to interfere since it's Luffy's fight. Though in his case, I feel he'd have a much harder time defeating Doffy compared to an Admiral. He's quite close to their level based on portrayal.

3. Luffy: It's important to remember that Luffy didn't start out fighting Doffy on his terms due to Law's strategies. He had to hold back a lot (as is apparent with his reluctancy to use any of his advanced techniques - Gear 4 comes to mind) until Law was taken out. Also by the time Luffy reached Doffy, he was far from fresh and had taken damages he could've avoided all just to win the heart of a certain Bellamy. Meanwhile Doffy was fresh from the get go. Awakening was the only thing keeping Doffy from going down too early when he faced Luffy in G4. And let's not forget that Luffy held back somewhat when fighting Doffy (or was he just showing off?). He made things easy for Doffy since he told him he'll take him down in one hit and he did just that. I don't think Doffy would survive a barrage of Kong Organ.

RUNNER UP:
Law: Based on his previous one on one skirmish vs Doffy, it was very clear that Law is inferior to Doflamingo in every stat (except smarts) and would get beat badly in a one on one. With Luffy, he evened the power difference and even had the upper hand but it meant Luffy couldn't go all out. If Doffy wasn't a string man Law could've been able to defeat him (of course with help). But let's not pretend DF doesn't exist. Law lost pretty badly and his ability to strategize and brains got him very far in the fight with Doffy. He would never have been able to land any clean hit.

 

[nik87]

IMHO he made it very clear that Zoro is attacking the Bird Cage. The "explosion" is not flat, it clear has some 3D quality to it.
Even the story is clear: Kinemon' tells Zoro to stop because it's useless, then Zoro says he won't accept that the Bird Cage cannot be stopped.

I have no idea how you concluded nobody tried to cut the Bird Cage.
Even if you don't believe in a panel which art is clear enough, what about the sound SFX?
It seems to be used when a slash fails to cut something (metal?).

I disagree. As I said, from the start the goal was to stop the Birdcage and Kinemon & Co were called along. If he wanted to cut it, he wouldnt call them along.
At some point during the collective effort, they all managed to stop the Birdcage for a second before it continued to shrink.
It wasnt me who concluded that nobody tried to cut it, that is what manga has been presenting from the start to finish.

The art of your panel only shows the first contact between Zoro and Birdcage, assuming that it was a flying slash even works against the argument that he was trying to cut it as flying slashes are not the go-to technique to cut something that is apparently hard to cut.
The SFX is not representing a slash that fails to cut... That SFX is present everywhere when two hard surfaces make contact - KLANG!!!

There were many options to prove Zoro trying to cut it and there are none. There was an option to show Zoro using named moves and failing to cut.
There was an option of Zoro cutting the Birdcage. There was an option of Zoro cutting the Birdcage but the strings regrow instantly.
None of those options were used but instead Pushing the Birdcage was chosen from the start. You still dont realize a plot element of such simplicity?

I think this goes to show that there were only 3 people who could defeat Doffy in Dressrosa.

How did you reach such a conclusion based on that post? Do you realize that beating Doffy has nothing to do with Birdcage itself?

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

I disagree. As I said, from the start the goal was to stop the Birdcage and Kinemon & Co were called along. If he wanted to cut it, he wouldnt call them along.
At some point during the collective effort, they all managed to stop the Birdcage for a second before it continued to shrink.
It wasnt me who concluded that nobody tried to cut it, that is what manga has been presenting from the start to finish.

The art of you panel only shows the first contact between Zoro and Birdcage, assuming that it was a flying slash even works against the argument that he was trying to cut it as flying slashes are not the go-to technique to cut something that is apparently hard to cut.
The SFX is not representing a slash that fails to cut... That SFX is present everywhere when two hard surfaces make contact - KLANG!!!

There were many options to prove Zoro trying to cut it and there are none. There was an option to show Zoro using named moves and failing to cut.
There was an option of Zoro cutting the Birdcage. There was an option of Zoro cutting the Birdcage but the strings regrow instantly.
None of those options were used but instead Pushing the Birdcage was chosen from the start. You still dont realize a plot element of such simplicity?


How did you reach such a conclusion based on that post? Do you realize that beating Doffy has nothing to do with Birdcage itself?

Of course I'm not basing it on just one birdcage moment only. It's based on panel time throughout the arc.

The panel @Fox666 posted only solidified the fact that these guys can't take on Doffy. I remember Zoro at one point resorting to praying Luffy defeats Doflamingo just cos of how much of a pain trying to stop that birdcage was.

 

[nik87]

Of course I'm not basing it on just one birdcage moment only. It's based on panel time throughout the arc.
The panel @Fox666 posted only solidified the fact that these guys can't take on Doffy. I remember Zoro at one point resorting to praying Luffy defeats Doflamingo just cos of how much of a pain trying to stop that birdcage was.

How is that panel solidifying that "these guys"(read Zoro) cant take on Doffy? How is anything Birdcage related a tell whether someone can take on Doffy or not? Did Luffy ever touch the Birdcage, did Law? Birdcage is irrelevant to beating Doffy.
I can tell you why Zoro was never paired against Doffy - because he would beat him easily. It would make Luffy look bad and we cant have that.

Yeah stopping a plot element is indeed a pain, because it is a plot element lol. The same pain that Oden had against Barrier - the impossibility of overcoming a plot element. Textbook example of plot element and still, so many people fail to understand it...

 

[Fox666]

1. Fujitora: He could've taken down Doffy but decided to leave it at the hands of the man he gambled on - no other than Luffy.
Let's not forget that another Admiral level character - Aokiji - would've defeated Doffy earlier (of course with some difficulty) were it not for his somewhat rational thinking.

I don't think Aokiji could have stopped Doflamingo. He did try to freeze Doflamingo, which failed. Doflamingo could easily escape through the skies. I assume that Sky Walk or any ability like that can't compete with Doflamingo.

Fujitora on the other hand could fly, so Doflamingo would be in trouble.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

I can tell you why Zoro was never paired against Doffy - because he would beat him easily. It would make Luffy look bad and we cant have that.

Headcannon!!!

Doffy makes sword boys look like shit. See what he did to Law? You think Zoro will fair better?

Here's my own head cannon:
His string is sharper than any sword in One Piece.

Again Zoro was praying that Luffy defeats Doflamingo. If he thought he could remotely go toe to toe with Doflamingo, he would be facing him not praying or trying to stop an unstoppable birdcage. He was way below Luffy at that point.
The only reason he did not face Doffy was so he'd still be alive. Sanji tried, and would've been fatally wounded.
Last I checked Zoro's closer to Sanji in terms of power level, not Luffy!

Get your head cannons right mate.

--- Double Post Merged, May 10, 2020, Original Post Date: May 10, 2020 ---

I don't think Aokiji could have stopped Doflamingo. He did try to freeze Doflamingo, which failed. Doflamingo could easily escape through the skies. I assume that Sky Walk or any ability like that can't compete with Doflamingo.

Fujitora on the other hand could fly, so Doflamingo would be in trouble.

I'm not talking about merely stopping, we are discussing fights here.

Aokiji will 100% defeat/kill Doflamingo regardless of how difficult it is.
No matter how advantageous Doffy's fruit is he's not taking down an Admiral in a one on one battle.

 

[nik87]

Headcannon!!!

Doffy makes sword boys look like shit. See what he did to Law? You think Zoro will fair better?
Here's my own head cannon:
His string is sharper than any sword in One Piece.

Again Zoro was praying that Luffy defeats Doflamingo. If he thought he could remotely go toe to toe with Doflamingo, he would be facing him not praying or trying to stop an unstoppable birdcage. He was way below Luffy at that point.
The only reason he did not face Doffy was so he'd still be alive. Sanji tried, and would've been fatally wounded.
Last I checked Zoro's closer to Sanji in terms of power level, not Luffy!

Get your head cannons right mate.

Sure it is headcanon lol. That's why Doffy never trashed Zoro and an Admiral was put between them to babysit Doffy and protect him from Zoro.
Law is shit compared to Zoro and even he managed to kill Doffy had there not been another plot element to nullify his Gamma Knife.
Abdullah and Jeet say hello to the sharpest strings in the world.

Yes, he was "praying" because he was affected by plot induced stupidity. He could have easily joined the Doffy fight after he was done with Pica but again, we cant have Luffy look bad. Sabo could have joined too, the same plot induced stupidity affected him as well. Zoro alone would trash Doffy, add Luffy and Sabo and they would have stomped him within a minute but no, Luffy has to do it lol.

Yeah, he cant go toe to toe with Doffy but he happily wants to take Luffy's place against a frickin Admiral. No, sad news for you, Zoro has been far above Luffy the entire time, even now he remains ahead. LOL, Sanji faced Doffy and remained alive, try some other excuse. Last I checked, Zoro was never close to Sanji. Also, Zoro is about to trash King without extreme difficulty, Doflamingo is small fry compared to that and I am looking forward to excuses.