One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[King Moe]

Dude, Kaku was stronger than Jabura before DF, Oda stated it in the manga. Zolo tends to fight the 2nd strongest opponent that is how Oda portrays it. Are you going agaisnt ODA?
Vergo vs Pica, can be a tie with Vergo leaning to win yes, but Vergo was stronger than Sanji at the time of their fight, we already discussed all the possibilities.
Ill give you examples on Zolo and Sanji's opponents,
Hachi > Kurobi
Mr. 1 > Mr. 2
Kaku > Jabura
Ryuma > Absalom

Stronger than his Base, but not in DF at all and Doriki count isn't much as it was just 20 difference in much of that unlike 2 times difference with Lucci compare to them. Both were equal as it didn't count their DF much at all. Jabra is implied to be stronger one given his DF usages and how he was more experience.

As for others, nah Hachi isn't stronger than Kuroobi as didn't implied he was. Mr. 1 and Mr. 2 fought each other with no side given a each on who was dominant, already told you about JJabura over Kaku debate, and Absalom is stronger one given his abilities and plus it's not same Ryuma and just Brook's shadow who we know Sanji is already stronger than him and plus Ryuma is under Absalom command as his superior to boot.

It not always Zoro with stronger enemy as it's back and forth. It's how their relationship are. You never here neither admitting who stronger and always fighting both verbally and physically.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

zoro always fight the stronger one. He was the one who received his bounty first, not sanji. Because he fought the more notorious fighter.
Ryuma can blitz opponent even before they realized it. Absalom has no feats to win over ryuma.

 

[albertwv]

Stronger than his Base, but not in DF at all and Doriki count isn't much as it was just 20 difference in much of that unlike 2 times difference with Lucci compare to them. Both were equal as it didn't count their DF much at all. Jabra is implied to be stronger one given his DF usages and how he was more experience.

As for others, nah Hachi isn't stronger than Kuroobi as didn't implied he was. Mr. 1 and Mr. 2 fought each other with no side given a each on who was dominant, already told you about JJabura over Kaku debate, and Absalom is stronger one given his abilities and plus it's not same Ryuma and just Brook's shadow who we know Sanji is already stronger than him and plus Ryuma is under Absalom command as his superior to boot.

It not always Zoro with stronger enemy as it's back and forth. It's how their relationship are. You never here neither admitting who stronger and always fighting both verbally and physically.

Jabura was never implied to being stronger and we all know Zoan DFs are all about physical strength so their DFs go with their Douriki. You cant deny the fact that Oda put Kaku over Jabura.
Mr. 1 and Mr. 2 Really??? It was stated that the lower the number the stronger the BW agent. Do you just like to ignore the manga?
Absalom vs Ryuma, Absalom only has command because Moria gave him the authority but strenght wise I doubt Absalom would defeat Ryuma. Next thing youre going to say that Absalom > Oz because he has the command. Absalom would lose to Ryuuma, Brook's shadow has little to do with Ryuma's skill with the sword as you can see Zolo had somewhat of a hard time agaisnt Ryuma, but do you really think Zolo would have a hard time agaisnt Brook during TB arc? Answer is no.
Zolo has been portrayed to fight the 2nd in command/strongest while Sanji the 3rd in command/strongest.

 

[King Moe]

zoro always fight the stronger one. He was the one who received his bounty first, not sanji. Because he fought the more notorious fighter.
Ryuma can blitz opponent even before they realized it. Absalom has no feats to win over ryuma.

Not all the time, he doesn't face strongest one and yeah he got first bounty since he was first to join Luffy on many actions before others join, so you can't use that as competing if Sanji wasn't there for some of it before joining. Doesn't take away he was still strong as him and able to fight even now to same level as him as how Oda pushes them since their first argument.

Ryuma is Brook though and we all know Brook isn't that up there compare in main forces, not real Ryuma and he still under Absalom and doubt to counter what he can do and Absalom does have feats over Ryuma especially zombies have to take his order like Ryuma does.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 2, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 2, 2020 ---

Jabura was never implied to being stronger and we all know Zoan DFs are all about physical strength so their DFs go with their Douriki. You cant deny the fact that Oda put Kaku over Jabura.
Mr. 1 and Mr. 2 Really??? It was stated that the lower the number the stronger the BW agent. Do you just like to ignore the manga?
Absalom vs Ryuma, Absalom only has command because Moria gave him the authority but strenght wise I doubt Absalom would defeat Ryuma. Next thing youre going to say that Absalom > Oz because he has the command. Absalom would lose to Ryuuma, Brook's shadow has little to do with Ryuma's skill with the sword as you can see Zolo had somewhat of a hard time agaisnt Ryuma, but do you really think Zolo would have a hard time agaisnt Brook during TB arc? Answer is no.
Zolo has been portrayed to fight the 2nd in command/strongest while Sanji the 3rd in command/strongest.

He was implied especially he stated after Doriki ranking, they didn't count on DF, just Base, so it's up in the air who was stronger, but given Jabra have more experience on his DF over Kaku, he was pretty much bit stronger than him. You cant' deny that fact as well.

There is visible clash in manga of them fighting and both weren't shown dominate over the other. Want me to show you the image? Given how Bon Clay appears later, he looks to be much stronger than Daz Bones in performance.

Idk about that as Ryuma as that isn't his trueself and juts Brook in there which we all know doesn't compete same level as main forces of the crew, so doubt it and Absalom is stronger than he looks especially with his abilities can beat Ryuma in a fight. Not saying Ryuma wasn't strong enemy at the time, but still hard to say given what we seen of Brook isn't at level as how Ryuma would have fought as himself.

Nah, back and forth on those two. They are like Naruto and Sasuke of their rivalry to outdo one another, Oda doesn't push clear on who stronger than who as shown in many actions in manga as he likes rivalry and pushing them as equal rivals.

 

[Fox666]

Hatchi and Kurobi maybe are the same strength but not Chuu since he lost to Usopp.

Chuu lost to Usopp tricks.

 

[Nie Li]

Kuroobi was higher in rank than Hatchan according to the databooks, and so was Absalom, but Absalom was arguably MUCH weaker than Ryuuma's zombie. It's just that zombies don't get higher ranks in Moria's crew. Oars' zombie wasn't a highger ranker officer in the crew either and he was also stronger than Absalom.

In Kuroobi's case, there's no telling if he or Hatchan was stronger, but Zoro was extremely nerfed for that arc (he was recently defeated by Mihawk and his chest wound opened) and still got a very special praise from Arlong, who got intimidated by his stare.

There's no other examples of Sanji taking care of someone stronger than Zoro's main opponent for each arc, and King is not only higher ranked, he's higher ranked in a crew that bases everything on individual strength and that makes it obvious with a poker theme that King must be stronger than Queen, even if not necessarily by much.

Spoiler: Current chapter

King vs Sanji already ended, it was a short clash, we will see who King will engage for real in the end.

 

[King Moe]

Kuroobi was higher in rank than Hatchan according to the databooks, and so was Absalom, but Absalom was arguably MUCH weaker than Ryuuma's zombie. It's just that zombies don't get higher ranks in Moria's crew. Oars' zombie wasn't a highger ranker officer in the crew either and he was also stronger than Absalom.

In Kuroobi's case, there's no telling if he or Hatchan was stronger, but Zoro was extremely nerfed for that arc (he was recently defeated by Mihawk and his chest wound opened) and still got a very special praise from Arlong, who got intimidated by his stare.

There's no other examples of Sanji taking care of someone stronger than Zoro's main opponent for each arc, and King is not only higher ranked, he's higher ranked in a crew that bases everything on individual strength and that makes it obvious with a poker theme that King must be stronger than Queen, even if not necessarily by much.

Spoiler: Current chapter

King vs Sanji already ended, it was a short clash, we will see who King will engage for real in the end.

Nah, it is cases for the others too as mention above in the talks. You could say about Absalom and Ryuma, but that doesn't help much since Ryuma isn't same as before and using Brook's powers which we know isn't up there in facing main forces of Strawhats. They do naturally have back and forth on who they face is stronger or their opponents are equals depending.

There are examples stated many times as shown and nothing have stated King is stronger than Queen or vice versa. They are equals, you don't debut together like that if one is stronger than other. This isn't like with Big Mom Pirates with Katakuri who debuted solely and we got clear confirmation he was strongest of his family next to Big Mom while with Beast Pirates, King and Queen are seen strongest on top with only Kaido above them, not really implied who given portrayal and if your using real life, you do know King and Queen have same authority and treated the same in many countries, so doesn't mean much there as Oda can be even using that real life inspiration which shows given how they interact with one another and attitude.

Spoiler

Not really. The fighting just begun as it's similar to Enies Lobby a bit with fighting around, but doesn't mean fight is over between them nor short clash either as goal is to defeat Kaido and his crew for this. Stretching a lot by saying it's done there when it isn't.

 

[McNuss]

you do know King and Queen have same authority and treated the same in many countries,

I am not actually disagreeing much in your comparison of Katakuri with King/Queen, but I don't think there is any current country where the consort has as much official authority as the actual monarch.

 

[thedude]

I am not actually disagreeing much in your comparison of Katakuri with King/Queen, but I don't think there is any current country where the consort has as much official authority as the actual monarch.

Kaido is the actual monarch though...for King and Queen it's just nicknames. We haven't seen anything to show power levels of the two with any definitive results, so I'd wait on saying too much here.

 

[King Moe]

I am not actually disagreeing much in your comparison of Katakuri with King/Queen, but I don't think there is any current country where the consort has as much official authority as the actual monarch.

They do actually if you seen many famous Kings and Queens in history, not soley by the their consort as there been many examples.

 

[Nie Li]

They do actually if you seen many famous Kings and Queens in history, not soley by the their consort as there been many examples.

They don't, but anyway, what's this talk about kings and queens?
Kaido's crew is based on playing cards, not on the political power of kings and queens.

There's the numbers (1 to 10), the Jack, the Queen, the King, and Kaido's supposed to be the Ace.

They even had the Joker (Doflamingo) working for their benefit from outside the deck.

The naming alone suggests Jack < Queen < King < Kaido, and the fact that "Joker" was an alias makes it seem like Jack, Queen and King are likely to be aliases as well, although that last bit is speculation.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 2, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 2, 2020 ---

Nah, it is cases for the others too as mention above in the talks. You could say about Absalom and Ryuma, but that doesn't help much since Ryuma isn't same as before and using Brook's powers which we know isn't up there in facing main forces of Strawhats. They do naturally have back and forth on who they face is stronger or their opponents are equals depending.

Ryuuma as a zombie with Brook's shadow was tiers above Absalom. It doesn't matter that it wasn't the real Ryuuma's skills, his feats alone are superior. He had Brook's techniques but Ryuuma's muscular strength and talent and he performed techniques that Brook at the time wasn't able to (by Brook's own words).

They don't "naturally have back and forth on who they face": Zoro's final opponent in every arc is always one step above than Sanji's opponent, even if sometimes just by a little like Kaku. That doesn't mean Sanji faces weak people (although Absalom specifically was), it just means Queen vs Sanji is more likely. You get the point, I get that you think otherwise, what's the point of arguing about it?

Spoiler

Not really. The fighting just begun as it's similar to Enies Lobby a bit with fighting around, but doesn't mean fight is over between them nor short clash either as goal is to defeat Kaido and his crew for this. Stretching a lot by saying it's done there when it isn't.

Spoiler: Spoiler

What little we saw of Sanji vs King last week and how the scene changed to this week's chapter, it has nothing to do with the structure of Enies Lobby's fights. It is not a stretch: The fight that started last chapter already ended and it was only a small clash like I expected two weeks ago. King ignored Sanji and went after Luffy. His possible fight with Sanji was willingly dropped but himself. He didn't really care that much about Sanji being Germa. Now, if they do fight again, then so be it, but he disengaged Sanji as his opponent and could now fight anyone else (Zoro, for example).

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 2, 2020 ---

He was implied especially he stated after Doriki ranking, they didn't count on DF, just Base, so it's up in the air who was stronger, but given Jabra have more experience on his DF over Kaku, he was pretty much bit stronger than him. You cant' deny that fact as well.

There is visible clash in manga of them fighting and both weren't shown dominate over the other. Want me to show you the image? Given how Bon Clay appears later, he looks to be much stronger than Daz Bones in performance.

Idk about that as Ryuma as that isn't his trueself and juts Brook in there which we all know doesn't compete same level as main forces of the crew, so doubt it and Absalom is stronger than he looks especially with his abilities can beat Ryuma in a fight. Not saying Ryuma wasn't strong enemy at the time, but still hard to say given what we seen of Brook isn't at level as how Ryuma would have fought as himself.

Nah, back and forth on those two. They are like Naruto and Sasuke of their rivalry to outdo one another, Oda doesn't push clear on who stronger than who as shown in many actions in manga as he likes rivalry and pushing them as equal rivals.

I should have read this one post before caring to answer to your quote.

- You make a point that Jyabura with his DF could be stronger than Kaku. We don't have evidence of that and I disagree because of lack of proof but at least for that claim you do have a base and it's not a blind assumption. That's actually good.
- However, you are trying to claim Mr.2 is stronger than Mr.1, despite the fact that we were directly told that's not the case and Mr.2 having absolutely no means of damaging Mr.1, much less of surviving fighting him if Mr.1 had any desire of killing him.
- You are also trying to claim that Absalom is stronger than Ryuuma, trying to downgrade Ryuuma to Brook's level and arguing about "Absalom's skills", of which he had none, he was just superhuman strong (and not by a lot) and had a couple of invisible normal, small cannons.
- You've recently argued twice that Sanji is more skilled with the sword than Zoro is and I can quote you on that.

You're saying they go "back and forth" but all you're doing is trying to proof that they don't go back and forth, but that Sanji is superior to Zoro in every aspect, which is ridiculous.

 

[King Moe]

They don't, but anyway, what's this talk about kings and queens?
Kaido's crew is based on playing cards, not on the political power of kings and queens.

There's the numbers (1 to 10), the Jack, the Queen, the King, and Kaido's supposed to be the Ace.

They even had the Joker (Doflamingo) working for their benefit from outside the deck.

The naming alone suggests Jack < Queen < King < Kaido, and the fact that "Joker" was an alias makes it seem like Jack, Queen and King are likely to be aliases as well, although that last bit is speculation.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 2, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 2, 2020 ---

Ryuuma as a zombie with Brook's shadow was tiers above Absalom. It doesn't matter that it wasn't the real Ryuuma's skills, his feats alone are superior. He had Brook's techniques but Ryuuma's muscular strength and talent and he performed techniques that Brook at the time wasn't able to (by Brook's own words).

They don't "naturally have back and forth on who they face": Zoro's final opponent in every arc is always one step above than Sanji's opponent, even if sometimes just by a little like Kaku. That doesn't mean Sanji faces weak people (although Absalom specifically was), it just means Queen vs Sanji is more likely. You get the point, I get that you think otherwise, what's the point of arguing about it?

Spoiler: Spoiler

What little we saw of Sanji vs King last week and how the scene changed to this week's chapter, it has nothing to do with the structure of Enies Lobby's fights. It is not a stretch: The fight that started last chapter already ended and it was only a small clash like I expected two weeks ago. King ignored Sanji and went after Luffy. His possible fight with Sanji was willingly dropped but himself. He didn't really care that much about Sanji being Germa. Now, if they do fight again, then so be it, but he disengaged Sanji as his opponent and could now fight anyone else (Zoro, for example).

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 2, 2020 ---

I should have read this one post before caring to answer to your quote.

- You make a point that Jyabura with his DF could be stronger than Kaku. We don't have evidence of that and I disagree because of lack of proof but at least for that claim you do have a base and it's not a blind assumption. That's actually good.
- However, you are trying to claim Mr.2 is stronger than Mr.1, despite the fact that we were directly told that's not the case and Mr.2 having absolutely no means of damaging Mr.1, much less of surviving fighting him if Mr.1 had any desire of killing him.
- You are also trying to claim that Absalom is stronger than Ryuuma, trying to downgrade Ryuuma to Brook's level and arguing about "Absalom's skills", of which he had none, he was just superhuman strong (and not by a lot) and had a couple of invisible normal, small cannons.
- You've recently argued twice that Sanji is more skilled with the sword than Zoro is and I can quote you on that.

You're saying they go "back and forth" but all you're doing is trying to proof that they don't go back and forth, but that Sanji is superior to Zoro in every aspect, which is ridiculous.

Again your missing the point and pushing your agenda again on what you want Zoro is when he isn't. You got be clearer and admit fault at times on his side. Just because your a fan, doesn't mean you can't admit at times on his situation. Zoro sometimes get stronger enemy, but Sanji sometimes get them on his end, or they are equal around both cases. It's back and forth, no clear cut on who stronger than who even if you want use ranking system which isn't always justifiable position as even in rank systems, someone can be stronger than another with lower rank.

It goes both ways on that as not just card game, but also real life of King and Queen as you seen their interactions and never once they obey the other or take charge over them. In fact they rather kill each other than want to serve the other. Kaido shows no favoritism on who is stronger or he wants in charge as he see them both as his top guys even in flashback when he invade Wano and Scabbards emphasize them as more lethal under Kaido even over Jack.

Nah again it back and forth which make sense given their relationship between Sanji and Zoro and their enemies. Again like I said, I could see both ways on Absalom and Ryuma, but it still Brook in there with his skills and doubt if they switch opponents, Sanji will have trouble defeating Ryuma himself if he wants. Absalom shown he is more capable than he looks in a fight though as doubt he is that lower to Zombie Ryuma much. Also again while I don't mind Sanji vs Queen, it looks that Oda pushing more Sanji vs King given what we seen thus far and similarities are really telling between them more you can say on King vs Zoro while Zoro vs Queen got some similarities as well.

Spoiler

Also nah, fight is still going on and finished what? Sanji came out fine from the spoilers and King choose to leave from him to stop Luffy with Kaido. He didn't finish everything and sounds more like Sanji came back with crew to stop King again than go after someone else. It make sense why King turn his attention, but not because he doesn't see Sanji a threat no more, but more so it's natural for surbdoinates to stop someone wanting to reach their captain. The fight isn't over by miles as pushing the effort forward and please stop with Zoro situation as again. Queen is right there and Zoro can't not fly no has no response to that and his speed. Queen looks to be more likely his type of fight as doubt Zoro will be allow to chase after King in skies with so many enemies on the ground. We don't want a Pica hide and seek snorefest, we want Sky Battle with Sanji vs King and Zoro vs Queen Grounded fight. I don't mind what you stated, but it's looking Oda going for something else than we think on matchups. Don't see why Sanji want to switch when he comes back to chase King and protect everyone.

Thank you and still got work on your talk on stating who stronger as you don't have clear evidence if Kaku in his state was stronger and experience given he just ate fruit in the arc while Jabra has more time and experience with his. Hints more on Jabra, but it's clear Oda saw them as equals overall with difference of Base and DF uses shown.

Idk about that as during clash, Daz was struggling hitting him and had to block instead of tanking it from his blows. Also Bon Clay does have the means as his pistol swan shoes can hurt him bad if he was serious in there. Given what we see of them in later arcs, Bon Clay got better performance on handling himself compare to Daz Bones, so who is stronger can be debatable, but Oda push more importance on Bon over Daz though.

Didn't we have this talk of these Absalom and Ryuma above? Let's not go repetitive on talks or we go back to circle too much in different parts here.

As for on weapons, well Idk if Sanji can do better than Zoro, but last time we saw him with weapons like with Wanze fight, he didn't miss a beat on how he knew to cut through someone similar to Zoro. Being trained by Germa and Zeff on wielding weapons, he is more capable if he wanted to use his hands or weapons in a fight. Shouldn't underestimate that.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

Again your missing the point and pushing your agenda again on what you want Zoro is when he isn't. You got be clearer and admit fault at times on his side. Just because your a fan, doesn't mean you can't admit at times on his situation. Zoro sometimes get stronger enemy, but Sanji sometimes get them on his end, or they are equal around both cases. It's back and forth, no clear cut on who stronger than who even if you want use ranking system which isn't always justifiable position as even in rank systems, someone can be stronger than another with lower rank.

It goes both ways on that as not just card game, but also real life of King and Queen as you seen their interactions and never once they obey the other or take charge over them. In fact they rather kill each other than want to serve the other. Kaido shows no favoritism on who is stronger or he wants in charge as he see them both as his top guys even in flashback when he invade Wano and Scabbards emphasize them as more lethal under Kaido even over Jack.

Nah again it back and forth which make sense given their relationship between Sanji and Zoro and their enemies. Again like I said, I could see both ways on Absalom and Ryuma, but it still Brook in there with his skills and doubt if they switch opponents, Sanji will have trouble defeating Ryuma himself if he wants. Absalom shown he is more capable than he looks in a fight though as doubt he is that lower to Zombie Ryuma much. Also again while I don't mind Sanji vs Queen, it looks that Oda pushing more Sanji vs King given what we seen thus far and similarities are really telling between them more you can say on King vs Zoro while Zoro vs Queen got some similarities as well.

Spoiler

Also nah, fight is still going on and finished what? Sanji came out fine from the spoilers and King choose to leave from him to stop Luffy with Kaido. He didn't finish everything and sounds more like Sanji came back with crew to stop King again than go after someone else. It make sense why King turn his attention, but not because he doesn't see Sanji a threat no more, but more so it's natural for surbdoinates to stop someone wanting to reach their captain. The fight isn't over by miles as pushing the effort forward and please stop with Zoro situation as again. Queen is right there and Zoro can't not fly no has no response to that and his speed. Queen looks to be more likely his type of fight as doubt Zoro will be allow to chase after King in skies with so many enemies on the ground. We don't want a Pica hide and seek snorefest, we want Sky Battle with Sanji vs King and Zoro vs Queen Grounded fight. I don't mind what you stated, but it's looking Oda going for something else than we think on matchups. Don't see why Sanji want to switch when he comes back to chase King and protect everyone.

Thank you and still got work on your talk on stating who stronger as you don't have clear evidence if Kaku in his state was stronger and experience given he just ate fruit in the arc while Jabra has more time and experience with his. Hints more on Jabra, but it's clear Oda saw them as equals overall with difference of Base and DF uses shown.

Idk about that as during clash, Daz was struggling hitting him and had to block instead of tanking it from his blows. Also Bon Clay does have the means as his pistol swan shoes can hurt him bad if he was serious in there. Given what we see of them in later arcs, Bon Clay got better performance on handling himself compare to Daz Bones, so who is stronger can be debatable, but Oda push more importance on Bon over Daz though.

Didn't we have this talk of these Absalom and Ryuma above? Let's not go repetitive on talks or we go back to circle too much in different parts here.

As for on weapons, well Idk if Sanji can do better than Zoro, but last time we saw him with weapons like with Wanze fight, he didn't miss a beat on how he knew to cut through someone similar to Zoro. Being trained by Germa and Zeff on wielding weapons, he is more capable if he wanted to use his hands or weapons in a fight. Shouldn't underestimate that.

ryuma was clearly much stronger than brook, and brook can easily defeat absalom anyway with his blitz attack.
kaku is stronger than jabra. Kaku makes it to CP0 along with lucci, jabra doesn't.
Mr.1 is stronger than mr.2. Daz was put on lv4 at impel down, while bon clay was only on lv3.

 

[Nie Li]

As for on weapons, well Idk if Sanji can do better than Zoro, but last time we saw him with weapons like with Wanze fight, he didn't miss a beat on how he knew to cut through someone similar to Zoro. Being trained by Germa and Zeff on wielding weapons, he is more capable if he wanted to use his hands or weapons in a fight. Shouldn't underestimate that.

I will only address this paragraph. I read the rest of the post but I really think the rest of it is better left unquoted. I have never before answered this point of yours about Sanji and weapons so I will try to be clear on it: Sanji has absolutely no training with weapons.

He was a weakling that learnt nothing from Judge (I'm talking about when he was little. He was gentle and had no interest or talent for combat at the time). It's true that Judge said "Why don't you use a sword like a taught you?", but we know that Sanji never really "learnt" anything from him, and has never again touched a sword after he left them.

Zeff didn't teach him to fight with swords, he taught him to fight like he does, through kicks, because they don't want to use their hands in combat (although they do put their hands on the ground for certain moves). The fight with Wanze was a different matter, Sanji didn't use knives as a weapon against him, he used them as a cooking tool against his pasta. We know that Sanji is godlike at cooking, so it's natural that he would be also godlike using a cooking tool on ingredients. It could be argued that if Sanji had no morals he should be able to use the knives like that on a human being, but unlike pasta or ingredients, a skilled human being does fight back, and we have no reference of Sanji using knives against another skilled blade user, or even on something other than pasta.

Even if we assumed Sanji was really a top tier fighter with knives (which is unclear since he only used them on the ingredients thrown at him by a fodder character), skill with knives doesn't imply skill with swords. Haki may flow the same through any kind of weapon, but the skills and techniques behind knives and swords have nothing in common, and swords are not a cooking tool, so Sanji has no training with them.

 

[Rmstorm]

I will only address this paragraph. I read the rest of the post but I really think the rest of it is better left unquoted. I have never before answered this point of yours about Sanji and weapons so I will try to be clear on it: Sanji has absolutely no training with weapons.

He was a weakling that learnt nothing from Judge (I'm talking about when he was little. He was gentle and had no interest or talent for combat at the time). It's true that Judge said "Why don't you use a sword like a taught you?", but we know that Sanji never really "learnt" anything from him, and has never again touched a sword after he left them.

Zeff didn't teach him to fight with swords, he taught him to fight like he does, through kicks, because they don't want to use their hands in combat (although they do put their hands on the ground for certain moves). The fight with Wanze was a different matter, Sanji didn't use knives as a weapon against him, he used them as a cooking tool against his pasta. We know that Sanji is godlike at cooking, so it's natural that he would be also godlike using a cooking tool on ingredients. It could be argued that if Sanji had no morals he should be able to use the knives like that on a human being, but unlike pasta or ingredients, a skilled human being does fight back, and we have no reference of Sanji using knives against another skilled blade user, or even on something other than pasta.

Even if we assumed Sanji was really a top tier fighter with knives (which is unclear since he only used them on the ingredients thrown at him by a fodder character), skill with knives doesn't imply skill with swords. Haki may flow the same through any kind of weapon, but the skills and techniques behind knives and swords have nothing in common, and swords are not a cooking tool, so Sanji has no training with them.

Sanji was taught Swordsmanship as a child by Judge, how can you forget that fact. So Sanji has Swordsmanship training.

 

[thedude]

I'm so glad i never read "Sanji>Zoro in swords"...dear lord is that dumb!

He's never going to use them. And I'm happy with that. I love that he has his own style that relies only on feet.

 

[Nie Li]

Sanji was taught Swordsmanship as a child by Judge, how can you forget that fact. So Sanji has Swordsmanship training.

I mentioned Judge and his "training" in the post you're quoting so I'm not sure what you're saying about forgetting it. Do you believe that anything combat-oriented that Sanji learnt before the age of 10, something that he sucked at and that he has never again trained because he changed his skillset entirely and focused it on a different kind of weapon (his legs), is relevant now? Do you think Sanji could actually use a sword in a competent manner against the characters who have trained swordsmanship their whole life? It would be like when Luffy tried to used swords at Arlong Park. If anything a little bit more refined, but to the same results.

I'm so glad i never read "Sanji>Zoro in swords"...dear lord is that dumb!

He's never going to use them. And I'm happy with that. I love that he has his own style that relies only on feet.

Glad you missed that. It's twice that he made that point basing it on the Wanze fight. Sanji is fine with being as strong as he is only at kicking, just like Zoro wouldn't be as strong as he is without his swords, because even if he's superhumanly strong, all of his techniques and training revolve around them. Same thing for Sanji and his legs.

 

[thedude]

I mentioned Judge and his "training" in the post you're quoting so I'm not sure what you're saying about forgetting it. Do you believe that anything combat-oriented that Sanji learnt before the age of 10, something that he sucked at and that he has never again trained because he changed his skillset entirely and focused it on a different kind of weapon (his legs), is relevant now? Do you think Sanji could actually use a sword in a competent manner against the characters who have trained swordsmanship their whole life? It would be like when Luffy tried to used swords at Arlong Park. If anything a little bit more refined, but to the same results.


Glad you missed that. It's twice that he made that point basing it on the Wanze fight. Sanji is fine with being as strong as he is only at kicking, just like Zoro wouldn't be as strong as he is without his swords, because even if he's superhumanly strong, all of his techniques and training revolve around them. Same thing for Sanji and his legs.

To me, Sanji is like a Korean actor from the 70's and 80's who was in a lot of Hong Kong Kung Fu movies, Jang-Lee Hwang. Nicknamed Thunderfoot, or "King of the Leg fighters", he was known for his taekwondo kicks, and he was always a badass. https://kungfukingdom.com/profile-hwang-jang-lee/

 

[Nie Li]

To me, Sanji is like a Korean actor from the 70's and 80's who was in a lot of Hong Kong Kung Fu movies, Jang-Lee Hwang. Nicknamed Thunderfoot, or "King of the Leg fighters", he was known for his taekwondo kicks, and he was always a badass. https://kungfukingdom.com/profile-hwang-jang-lee/

Never heard of him but he looks like a cool old school action star.

 

[King Moe]

ryuma was clearly much stronger than brook, and brook can easily defeat absalom anyway with his blitz attack.
kaku is stronger than jabra. Kaku makes it to CP0 along with lucci, jabra doesn't.
Mr.1 is stronger than mr.2. Daz was put on lv4 at impel down, while bon clay was only on lv3.

Nah, not from what I seen as just by a bit stronger, but not like leap over. Who is stronger between Absalom and Ryuma is debatable.

Nah, Kaku was very slower in how to workout his DF compare to Jabra as that is fact about it and we don't know what happen to rest of the group as rest could be back at HQ to reveal whole CPO members. Seems unlikely why only Lucci and Kaku join back and not the rest.

Nah, Bon Clay easily have better feats and importance over Daz Bones and due to placement by bounties than truly power. We saw Bon Clay later encased in secret lvl 6 later instead back on lvl 3, so shows he is much tougher than he looks.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 3, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 3, 2020 ---

I will only address this paragraph. I read the rest of the post but I really think the rest of it is better left unquoted. I have never before answered this point of yours about Sanji and weapons so I will try to be clear on it: Sanji has absolutely no training with weapons.

He was a weakling that learnt nothing from Judge (I'm talking about when he was little. He was gentle and had no interest or talent for combat at the time). It's true that Judge said "Why don't you use a sword like a taught you?", but we know that Sanji never really "learnt" anything from him, and has never again touched a sword after he left them.

Zeff didn't teach him to fight with swords, he taught him to fight like he does, through kicks, because they don't want to use their hands in combat (although they do put their hands on the ground for certain moves). The fight with Wanze was a different matter, Sanji didn't use knives as a weapon against him, he used them as a cooking tool against his pasta. We know that Sanji is godlike at cooking, so it's natural that he would be also godlike using a cooking tool on ingredients. It could be argued that if Sanji had no morals he should be able to use the knives like that on a human being, but unlike pasta or ingredients, a skilled human being does fight back, and we have no reference of Sanji using knives against another skilled blade user, or even on something other than pasta.

Even if we assumed Sanji was really a top tier fighter with knives (which is unclear since he only used them on the ingredients thrown at him by a fodder character), skill with knives doesn't imply skill with swords. Haki may flow the same through any kind of weapon, but the skills and techniques behind knives and swords have nothing in common, and swords are not a cooking tool, so Sanji has no training with them.

Agree to Disagree like always with us as again we won't get anywhere given your agenda and already you making illogical statement saying 'No training' on Sanij when we just saw him use weapons on Wanze fight. You don't instantly to know how to use them by first time use. He has clear practice and it shows. While he didn't enjoy his time there, he still acknowledge what his family try to teach him in using weapons as a child in many sparring sessions. While he wasn't good at it, his memory on how he was taught shows along combine with Zeff teaching him how to use knifes of their occuptation increase that. He be no different on how to use a sword from what we seen in Wanze fight. It's ignorant to say he isn't good with weapons when clear we just saw him fight like swordsman in that fight. Listen if you don't like Sanji, it's fine, but don't make something up like that to justify your response when it's not true.

Sanji wasn't only taught by fighting through kicks, but also how to wield weapons which is proof from that fight. While he isn't one to use his hands, no doubt if he wanted to, he does have skills to show he can.

True on that statement to know whether how good Sanji will be on weapons to credible foe, but looking at characters like Mihawk who can easily beat anyone with smaller knife, Sanji could easily add Haki to his weapons and be in similar vibe on how to use weapons (Not saying he be Mihawk level, but would be strong threat with weapons if he choose to fight with his hands and weapons). We shouldn't underestimate on his abilities and not much different from wielding an sword as his stance in fighting Wanze was like a swordsman desigh, so just saying it's heavy possibility on how skill he is as your not a novice or first-time on how he did Wanze on weapons as it felt like he was same level as Zoro on knowing how to cut things down.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 3, 2020 ---

I'm so glad i never read "Sanji>Zoro in swords"...dear lord is that dumb!

He's never going to use them. And I'm happy with that. I love that he has his own style that relies only on feet.

I never said who was better in swords, but just that Sanji with weapons can be as deadly shown in Wanze fight. Obviously I prefer his Black Leg style. Just saying Sanji is one with diverse skill which is canon fact about him.