One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[King Moe]

Please don't start with the talk about Mihawk's tier again. Both for those that diminiss him and those who hype him up (like myself) it's an entirely biased debate because there is simply a lack of feats from his part.

The only thing that's clear to me is that any feat that the Wano swordsmen perform can be surpassed by him, and that's a pretty cool thing for his fans.

Whether that puts him at Kaido's level or not is a different matter that it's better to not even talk about until the time comes that Mihawk shows his worth.

Idk about that as it shown and never stated Mihawk ever set foot on Wano Country and challenge any of swordsman to earned his title of WSS. So if that the case, we could have someone already stronger than Mihawk, but just never challenge the title for him. Probably never heard of him given no one mentions him when referring to great swordsman like Ryuma, Oden, etc.. So debatable on that talk there.

I am just stating we shouldn't downplay and undermine Kaido just because he allowing himself to get hit and tank and not going full all out yet to justify 'Mihawk can beat him'. I am just came into conversation and say my piece, not trying to start anything. That also what I am saying as until we see more performance on Mihawk side, we shouldn't jump to conclusions on him 'stronger than Yonkos' than performance didn't show that last time we see him in Marineford.

 

[Ramen]

Both for those that diminiss him and those who hype him up (like myself) it's an entirely biased debate because there is simply a lack of feats from his part

Me and you when debating this:

 

[Nie Li]

Idk about that as it shown and never stated Mihawk ever set foot on Wano Country and challenge any of swordsman to earned his title of WSS. So if that the case, we could have someone already stronger than Mihawk, but just never challenge the title for him. Probably never heard of him given no one mentions him when referring to great swordsman like Ryuma, Oden, etc.. So debatable on that talk there.

It is not really debatable because neither side can prove what they're saying, and past debates about this topic have already proven to be endless and fruitless.

Ryuma has only been mentioned because Zoro had his sword, it's not like the plot has deviated from the Kaido crisis and Mihawk is not related to that.

What you must understand is that Mihawk's character's existence will make no sense if he's not the world strongest swordsman. Suddenly he won't matter at all to Zoro's objective.

So far, until the fight with Kaido, Mihawk's feats have indeed been superior to the Scabbard's, but as I said on my post, Mihawk simply lacks feats to compare him to what Kinemon just did, for example. But it's not that he lacks them because he's weak. He lacks them because he hasn't appeared enough in the manga.

I am just stating we shouldn't downplay and undermine Kaido just because he allowing himself to get hit and tank and not going full all out yet to justify 'Mihawk can beat him'. I am just came into conversation and say my piece, not trying to start anything. That also what I am saying as until we see more performance on Mihawk side, we shouldn't jump to conclusions on him 'stronger than Yonkos' than performance didn't show that last time we see him in Marineford.

I'll give your words back at you: until we see more performance on Mihawk side, we shouldn't jump to conclusions on him "weaker than Yonkos".

Which is exactly my point: This debate makes no sense, because he still lacks appearances and feats. You base your arguments on a single appearance in which he didn't even sweat and I base my points on the narrative behind his character.


However, I'm feeling generous, so I'll counter one of your points:

According to you, "Mihawk was unable to defeat Vista and Jozu, and thus is around YC3/4 level". So, according to you:

Jozu stopping an attack from Mihawk means that Jozu >= Mihawk.
Vista clashing for a while with Mihawk (who doesn't even push himself) means that Vista >= Mihawk.

Then, going by your own logic.

Kaido trying to kill the Scabbards in a single special attack (a mythic zoan named special attack) and Kinemon stopping his full attack and hurting KAido at the same time, should mean that Kinemon >= Kaido.

See how that's a fallacy? You cannot gauge someones potential or true strength just because he clashes swords for a moment with someone.

This is the last thing I will say on this topic for now.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 26, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 26, 2020 ---

Me and you when debating this:

Their fight lasted just as long as that debate.

 

[Ramen]

It is not really debatable because neither side can prove what they're saying, and past debates about this topic have already proven to be endless and fruitless.

Ryuma has only been mentioned because Zoro had his sword, it's not like the plot has deviated from the Kaido crisis and Mihawk is not related to that.

What you must understand is that Mihawk's character's existence will make no sense if he's not the world strongest swordsman. Suddenly he won't matter at all to Zoro's objective.

So far, until the fight with Kaido, Mihawk's feats have indeed been superior to the Scabbard's, but as I said on my post, Mihawk simply lacks feats to compare him to what Kinemon just did, for example. But it's not that he lacks them because he's weak. He lacks them because he hasn't appeared enough in the manga.


I'll give your words back at you: until we see more performance on Mihawk side, we shouldn't jump to conclusions on him "weaker than Yonkos".

Which is exactly my point: This debate makes no sense, because he still lacks appearances and feats. You base your arguments on a single appearance in which he didn't even sweat and I base my points on the narrative behind his character.


However, I'm feeling generous, so I'll counter one of your points:

According to you, "Mihawk was unable to defeat Vista and Jozu, and thus is around YC3/4 level". So, according to you:

Jozu stopping an attack from Mihawk means that Jozu >= Mihawk.
Vista clashing for a while with Mihawk (who doesn't even push himself) means that Vista >= Mihawk.

Then, going by your own logic.

Kaido trying to kill the Scabbards in a single special attack (a mythic zoan named special attack) and Kinemon stopping his full attack and hurting KAido at the same time, should mean that Kinemon >= Kaido.

See how that's a fallacy? You cannot gauge someones potential or true strength just because he clashes swords for a moment with someone.

This is the last thing I will say on this topic for now.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 26, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 26, 2020 ---

Their fight lasted just as long as that debate.

There should be a rule that anyone that trys to revive that topic without sufficient proof be sent to the shadow realm

 

[Nie Li]

There should be a rule that anyone that trys to revive that topic without sufficient proof be sent to the shadow realm

I honestly think @goldb should add the topic of "Mihawk's real tier" to his sticky post. At least until Mihawk provides new feats to reopen it.

 

[Ramen]

I honestly think @goldb should add the topic of "Mihawk's real tier" to his sticky post. At least until Mihawk provides new feats to reopen it.

Yea I'm surprised he hasn't done so already.

In other words, Fujitora is a top 10 character in terms of strength and is underrated. I think I've said this before but I'll say it again.

 

[Nie Li]

Yea I'm surprised he hasn't done so already.

In other words, Fujitora is a top 10 character in terms of strength and is underrated. I think I've said this before but I'll say it again.

What's your top 10 again? Ignoring characters of unconfirmed strength such as the Gorosei.

 

[Ramen]

What's your top 10 again? Ignoring characters of unconfirmed strength such as the Gorosei.

I'm excluding Ryokugyu, Dragon, Gorosei.

1) Kaido
2) Shanks
3) Akainu
4) Big Mom
5) Aokiji
6) Fujitora
7) Kizaru
8) BB
9) Mihawk
10) Marco (?)


I really didn't know who to put for 10 so it could be objectively false.

I think 1-9 is pretty good though. What you think?

 

[Nie Li]

I'm excluding Ryokugyu, Dragon, Gorosei.

1) Kaido
2) Shanks
3) Akainu
4) Big Mom
5) Aokiji
6) Fujitora
7) Kizaru
8) BB
9) Mihawk
10) Marco (?)


I really didn't know who to put for 10 so it could be objectively false.

I think 1-9 is pretty good though. What you think?

Looks solid. Yonkous and admirals are a must in a top 10. Luffy may be reaching that level soon at the pace One Piece is going, but he's still not there until he proves it.

I agree that they're hard to rank. When characters are too close in strength it becomes a matter of the synergy between the different powers and skills, similar to "rock, paper, scissors", and they're not truly rankeable.

Fujitora might be weaker than the likes or Akainu (specially since now Akainu is kind of the "final boss" on the marines side) but it shouldn't be by much. They could be in the same general tier.

Mihawk of course pertains in that top. How high or low is yet to be seen.

And Marco... yeah. If the three you excluded were included there would be no place for a YC, but Marco or any YC 1 or perhaps Weevil can occupy that tenth spot.

Boa Hancock may also be a good candidate for that tenth spot, since she's very skilled at haki, at CQC, has CoC and has a hax DF.

I'd also argue that Doflamingo is potentially near that level. He's looked upon because of how G4 destroyed him and then afterwards G4 wasn't as useful against Cracker and Katakuri, but I'll always argue that Doflamingo was just "weakened to a level accesible to Luffy" by the wounds inflicted by Law, which means Doflamingo could be near YC1 (not necessarily YC1, but perhaps YC2). He did have an awakened tricky DF, strong haki and CoC.

 

[King Moe]

It is not really debatable because neither side can prove what they're saying, and past debates about this topic have already proven to be endless and fruitless.

Ryuma has only been mentioned because Zoro had his sword, it's not like the plot has deviated from the Kaido crisis and Mihawk is not related to that.

What you must understand is that Mihawk's character's existence will make no sense if he's not the world strongest swordsman. Suddenly he won't matter at all to Zoro's objective.

So far, until the fight with Kaido, Mihawk's feats have indeed been superior to the Scabbard's, but as I said on my post, Mihawk simply lacks feats to compare him to what Kinemon just did, for example. But it's not that he lacks them because he's weak. He lacks them because he hasn't appeared enough in the manga.


I'll give your words back at you: until we see more performance on Mihawk side, we shouldn't jump to conclusions on him "weaker than Yonkos".

Which is exactly my point: This debate makes no sense, because he still lacks appearances and feats. You base your arguments on a single appearance in which he didn't even sweat and I base my points on the narrative behind his character.


However, I'm feeling generous, so I'll counter one of your points:

According to you, "Mihawk was unable to defeat Vista and Jozu, and thus is around YC3/4 level". So, according to you:

Jozu stopping an attack from Mihawk means that Jozu >= Mihawk.
Vista clashing for a while with Mihawk (who doesn't even push himself) means that Vista >= Mihawk.

Then, going by your own logic.

Kaido trying to kill the Scabbards in a single special attack (a mythic zoan named special attack) and Kinemon stopping his full attack and hurting KAido at the same time, should mean that Kinemon >= Kaido.

See how that's a fallacy? You cannot gauge someones potential or true strength just because he clashes swords for a moment with someone.

This is the last thing I will say on this topic for now.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 26, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 26, 2020 ---

Their fight lasted just as long as that debate.

He is still WSS, but there can still be people stronger than him as being WSS, doesn't mean your stronger than all. Whitebeard and Kaido wouldn't have WSM and WSC respectively if Mihawk was that greater and plus we seen interactions with him trying to go to Whitebeard who didn't care much about him compare to many serious threats on the field like Admirals like Akainu and acknowledge Shanks when he confront him. He is still strong character, but Mihawk isn't on the scale of Yonkos and Admirals from what we seen on performance. I can give him maybe stronger than YCs, but until we see more performance, we shouldn't jump on it much on his full power when Marineford kinda show where he stays comparing to different and deep top tiers characters.

The difference is Jozu and Vista aren't going full power and neither is Mihawk, but even so if the guy is 'Yonko lvl' powerful, you can easily one-shot YC lvl without trying like Whitebeard, Kaido, and Big Mom showed without using full power. Mihawk never did on any enemy and only beaten Daz Bones and Impel Down prisoners as his biggest enemies he took out. Not same with Kinemon vs Kaido who the latter still isn't trying and nor is using many of his attacks especially his Club, Haki, Hybrid Form, and Awakening Form. Kaido got more backing and hype on him as he won't go down even after facing Scabbards. Kinemon is doing good for himself, but we all know he isn't one to defeat him give Luffy is the one to be major challenge for Kaido most of all.

Again I respect and understanding what you mean. I was just stating we shouldn't judge on Kaido since he isn't going all out and that until we see evidence on Mihawk on what he can do, we cannot push him 'above all' when he isn't. That is reasonable on both sides as we waiting to see more as obviously both haven't shown their full power respectively.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 26, 2020 ---

I'm excluding Ryokugyu, Dragon, Gorosei.

1) Kaido
2) Shanks
3) Akainu
4) Big Mom
5) Aokiji
6) Fujitora
7) Kizaru
8) BB
9) Mihawk
10) Marco (?)


I really didn't know who to put for 10 so it could be objectively false.

I think 1-9 is pretty good though. What you think?

That's actually pretty good list, but I would put BB a bit higher and I don't see Fujitora stronger than old Admirals or at least not. I would push Big Mom over Shanks and Akainu given she fought with Kaido until they tied. While Mihawk is debatable on whether he is top 10 or not as still certain characters I would put above him, but he Is top 20-30 though.

 

[M3J]

I don't think that what's troubling some is that "anyone who injures Kaido is stronger than him", but rather that the only trait Kaido has been praised for since his very early introduction has been his invulnerability. It was hyped by the narrator to the point that he was supposedly unable to kill himself and marines had no means to execute him after capturing him more than once.

Whitebeard had different strengths and weaknesses; his durability was never praised in this way and he was very sick on top of that, so it wasn't as meaningful that he accumulated wounds.

I mean so far, he's shown to be invulnerable. The manga never said he couldn't get hurt or wounded, did it? They even said that he's been captured more than once before. I don't think Kaidou's been bad at all.

 

[Nie Li]

I mean so far, he's shown to be invulnerable. The manga never said he couldn't get hurt or wounded, did it? They even said that he's been captured more than once before. I don't think Kaidou's been bad at all.

I believe that it did say he couldn't. It's why they couldn't execute him (they tried to but every attempt of execution failed), why he couldn't kill himself, and why Oden's scar was made such a big deal of.

The Scabbards (even those that didn't travel through time and that have had 20 less years to train. Those for who this fight is just like half a year after they saw Oden be defeated) have first shown to be able to pierce Kaido's human body. One can argue that he was drunk, distracted and overconfident. Now we have a sobered up Kaido in dragon form throwing a special technique with the intent to kill at them, and Kin'emon flawlessly cutting Kaido's attack in two and even damaging his dragon body from a distance.

The only thing I'm wondering is why he wasn't executed by an admiral. Akainu would have been pleased to help. Oda needs to explain many things.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 26, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 26, 2020 ---

The difference is Jozu and Vista aren't going full power and neither is Mihawk, but even so if the guy is 'Yonko lvl' powerful, you can easily one-shot YC lvl without trying like Whitebeard, Kaido, and Big Mom showed without using full power.

I'll address this line.

What Kaido has showed me is that he's been cut twice by a guy who lost to Law who in turn lost to Doflamingo, and that's not making me assume Doflamingo > Kaido, because it just doesn't work like that.

 

[Ramen]

Looks solid. Yonkous and admirals are a must in a top 10. Luffy may be reaching that level soon at the pace One Piece is going, but he's still not there until he proves it.

I agree that they're hard to rank. When characters are too close in strength it becomes a matter of the synergy between the different powers and skills, similar to "rock, paper, scissors", and they're not truly rankeable.

Fujitora might be weaker than the likes or Akainu (specially since now Akainu is kind of the "final boss" on the marines side) but it shouldn't be by much. They could be in the same general tier.

Mihawk of course pertains in that top. How high or low is yet to be seen.

And Marco... yeah. If the three you excluded were included there would be no place for a YC, but Marco or any YC 1 or perhaps Weevil can occupy that tenth spot.

Boa Hancock may also be a good candidate for that tenth spot, since she's very skilled at haki, at CQC, has CoC and has a hax DF.

I'd also argue that Doflamingo is potentially near that level. He's looked upon because of how G4 destroyed him and then afterwards G4 wasn't as useful against Cracker and Katakuri, but I'll always argue that Doflamingo was just "weakened to a level accesible to Luffy" by the wounds inflicted by Law, which means Doflamingo could be near YC1 (not necessarily YC1, but perhaps YC2). He did have an awakened tricky DF, strong haki and CoC.

Since especially we haven't seen most top tiers go "all out" in terms of fighting. Even WB was sick and injured in his fight against Akainu. I think since Oda doesn't really care for power levels he just ended up making them all similar.

Looks solid. Yonkous and admirals are a must in a top 10. Luffy may be reaching that level soon at the pace One Piece is going, but he's still not there until he proves it.

I agree that they're hard to rank. When characters are too close in strength it becomes a matter of the synergy between the different powers and skills, similar to "rock, paper, scissors", and they're not truly rankeable.

Thing is, we've actually never seen a real top tier duke it out with someone of relative strength so most of the time, we go off statements and the hype that surrounds said character. At some point I think biases get it in the way and since they are so close, you'd put the character you prefer on top.

Fujitora might be weaker than the likes or Akainu (specially since now Akainu is kind of the "final boss" on the marines side) but it shouldn't be by much. They could be in the same general tier.

Going off of what Oda is trying to do in terms of story, I definitely think Akainu is top marine but there is no reason to think he is tiers above Fujitora or Kizaru. I always say, that Sabo fight derailed Fuji's rank.

Mihawk of course pertains in that top. How high or low is yet to be seen.

I always thought he was a top tier but I never thought he was the strongest or top 5. That's not to say he wouldn't give a very tough fight to anyone on that list. Possibly even beats some.

And Marco... yeah. If the three you excluded were included there would be no place for a YC, but Marco or any YC 1 or perhaps Weevil can occupy that tenth spot.

Marco was hyped by the Gorosei to take down BB (though I guess you could interpret those statements differently) and I have him as the strongest YC1 anyways. Him and Beckmann.

Boa Hancock may also be a good candidate for that tenth spot, since she's very skilled at haki, at CQC, has CoC and has a hax DF.

I agree.

I'd also argue that Doflamingo is potentially near that level. He's looked upon because of how G4 destroyed him and then afterwards G4 wasn't as useful against Cracker and Katakuri, but I'll always argue that Doflamingo was just "weakened to a level accesible to Luffy" by the wounds inflicted by Law, which means Doflamingo could be near YC1 (not necessarily YC1, but perhaps YC2). He did have an awakened tricky DF, strong haki and CoC.

Problem is Doflamingo was terrified at the thought of Kaido going after him and called Fujitora a straight monster. He's definitely up there and I can agree to him being nerfed for Luffy. He definitely had a great showing.

 

[Nie Li]

Since especially we haven't seen most top tiers go "all out" in terms of fighting. Even WB was sick and injured in his fight against Akainu. I think since Oda doesn't really care for power levels he just ended up making them all similar.


Thing is, we've actually never seen a real top tier duke it out with someone of relative strength so most of the time, we go off statements and the hype that surrounds said character. At some point I think biases get it in the way and since they are so close, you'd put the character you prefer on top.



Going off of what Oda is trying to do in terms of story, I definitely think Akainu is top marine but there is no reason to think he is tiers above Fujitora or Kizaru. I always say, that Sabo fight derailed Fuji's rank.



I always thought he was a top tier but I never though he was the strongest or top 5. That's not to say he wouldn't give a very tough fight to anyone on that list. Possibly even beats some.



Marco was hyped by the Gorosei to take down BB (though I guess you could interpret those statements differently) and I have him as the strongest YC1 anyways. Him and Beckmann.



I agree.




Problem is Doflamingo was terrified at the thought of Kaido going after him and called Fujitora a straight monster. He's definitely up there and I can agree to him being nerfed for Luffy. He definitely had a great showing.

Of course Doflamingo is definitely not Yonko-tier, but I think he can duke it out with at least YC2s, perhaps give a good fight to some YC1 even if he loses.

About Fujitora and Sabo... I don't think fighting with Sabo should drop down Fujitora's tier: Sabo is a monster.

The guy is Dragon's right hand. Dragon being the man with supposedly the highest bounty in the world, his second in command is expected to be a monster, and Sabo didn't even have a fruit when he became attained that rank. He was all about haki and martial technique with his dragon claws. His weapon was just a lead pipe instead of some grade sword. And right before his clash with Fujitora he obtained a good logia. Such a logia over such a strong foundation... when he masters his fruit, he's bound to become a real top-tier eventually.

 

[HereNThere]

Unless it's revealed that Kaido sucks at CoA for some reason, I'm going to chalk up those failed execution methods to him using hardening to survive the serious attempts at anyone killing him.

Aside from BB, he's the only Yonkou who hasn't been shown explicitly using haki and I'm hoping there is a big reveal for it. Plus, it'd make sense for Luffy to push his haki to surpass his to get to the next level.

Doflamingo is an interesting case. Personally, I don't think he's particularly on the level of the high tier, especially since he was afraid of Kaido. I think he is on the YC3 tier, maybe YC2 on a good day.

 

[Ramen]

Of course Doflamingo is definitely not Yonko-tier, but I think he can duke it out with at least YC2s, perhaps give a good fight to some YC1 even if he loses.

I think he can definitely give a good fight to people like Katakuri. His DF is insane.

 

[LadyVados]

What the new talk now? Mihawk will be able to harm and even defeat Kaido? That's still a big no even with Kinemon able to harm as not like Mihawk can't hurt him, but more so Kaido is not going all out still and still in Full Zoan state without using Haki, Hybrid Form, and even Awakening yet, so this doesn't prove much on anything. Plus let's not forget Mihawk had trouble with defeating any YC lvl threat like Jozu and Vista and was even stopped by Crocodile and didn't defeat him either. Mihawk's level still isn't as far as Kaido level who can still defeated YC lvl threats easily like Oden and Luffy for example as all it took was one hit to knock them out.

The power difference is still large between him and Mihawk. He isn't anywhere near the level of Kaido especially if he wants to go full-on out as Kaido like testing his opponents before truly seeing them worth his time as shown that he even fights when drunk before he gets sober and more serious. Let's not jump to conclusions now on Kaido and underestimating him.

I’d argue based on feats, Mihawk has the advantage against Kaido and Big Mom.

Even YC level fighters have failed to do anything against him while mid tiers like Kinemon and Franky (a̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶l̶o̶r̶d̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶a̶s̶t̶) have been shown to be serious threats to Yonko.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 26, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 26, 2020 ---

Doflamingo is an interesting case. Personally, I don't think he's particularly on the level of the high tier, especially since he was afraid of Kaido. I think he is on the YC3 tier, maybe YC2 on a good day.

Conservative estimate- Weaker than all yc3s

Realistic Estimate- stronger than Smoothie but weaker than Queen, Roo and Jozu

Optimistic estimate- Slightly stronger than Katakuri

 

[roggie]

I'm excluding Ryokugyu, Dragon, Gorosei.

1) Kaido
2) Shanks
3) Akainu
4) Big Mom
5) Aokiji
6) Fujitora
7) Kizaru
8) BB
9) Mihawk
10) Marco (?)


I really didn't know who to put for 10 so it could be objectively false.

I think 1-9 is pretty good though. What you think?

Garp, Sengoku?...

 

[Ramen]

Garp, Sengoku?...

They're too old now.

 

[roggie]

They're too old now.

You mean, like whitebeard who would mop pretty much anyone in Marineford?
And the guy was sick...