Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
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Wow, looking into the wiki to check I wasn't missing anyone I learnt that Vista had some filler scenes in the anime. I see that his clash with Mihawk was extended into a proper exchange of techniques. The anime adaptation of Marineford defiled Mihawk even more than I thought.
Let's see...
Benn Beckman - He's supposedly near Yonko-level so I'll place him first, but this is just a conjecture.
Oden - I'm not forgetting about this guy who used to be a YC. I'd place him first but he was killed too soon. He'd be Yonko-level now otherwise, but he did more damage (physically and mentally) to a younger Kaido than other guys like King seem to be able to. After all, Kaido hadn't remembered his trauma until he met the scabbards. None of his subordinates had reminded him of "Oden's haki".
Shiryu - Next I'm going with BB's YCs because they're likely the last YC opponents for the Strawhats. He's very likely Blackbeard's strongest warrior and Zoro's opponent when the time comes to face that crew. That is unless Sanjuan is some kind of monster that requires a Oars-like fight but I don't see Luffy fighting Blackbeard after needing to 10vs1 a YC, so Shiryu's likely above Sanjuan.
Marco - I place him above the other YC1s because of how little attention he's now paying to King and Queen. The guy straight up told Zoro and Robin why were they wasting their time with small fry and immediately offered Zoro to take him to Kaido, flying hims traight through those two's barrier.
Vista - Before you lynch me, please hear me out. I'm not only placing him here to justify his clash with Mihawk, but for other reasons.
First Reason:
- Whitebeard's crew was special. He had guys like Marco, Oden and BB. Marco talked condescendingly to King and Queen, and was considered as something who could have taken down BB even when he already had 2 DFs. Oden was almost on WB's and Roger's level when they met, and even a bit above Kaido's. BB has become a Yonko, but even before that he had already scarred the man who would become our favorite Yonko. I believe guys like Vista and Jozu aren't normal either (not Yonko material, but above most YCs).
- The Roger's pirates and Whitebeard's clashed many times over the years before the fight we saw in the flashback. In the fight that we saw, after the initial clashes, it stands to reason that Roger mostly took on WB and Rayleigh on Oden. Who used to take on Rayleigh before Oden came around? Vista, who was already 20+ years old back then. I don't think he's necessarily as strong as Rayleigh, but he may be comparable to him and close to his level. It would also explain why Mihawk knows him in particular, since it's pretty clear that Rayleigh and Mihawk have some past together.
- As mentioned in the previous point, Vista was 20+ by then, just like Marco and Jozu, which is why I believe these guys are above most YCs: it's not only their powers, it's their experience as seasoned veterans. It makes sense to me that WB had some commanders that were even above some YC1s, and it also explains why no Yonko ever thought of invading his territories to take advantage of his illness. It's because not only was he still very strong while ill; his crew was very dangerous.
King - Going by naming conventions, this guy's stronger than Queen and Jack. We don't know his bounty, but Queen's already dwarfs Katakuri's, so I bet King will dward Katakuri in bounty and be stronger than him. Comparable, but stronger.
Charlotte Katakuri - Badass and a great character overall. Strong as hell. Some people underestimate him because he doesn't have advanced CoA, but no other YC has showed his level of CoO (not even the Yonkos, actually) which is very impressive. Yes, he may go down from a couple of hits by Queen, but he'd dodge them all, and he can deal damage in a variety of ways or simply suffocate his enemies with his complex DF usage. He's strong.
Jozu - I was going to place this guy above Katakuri, to be honest, because while Katakuri has the strongest CoO and we have no information about how good Jozu's CoA is, we know that he can use it, and I strongly suspect that he's one of the most durable characters in the series with his haki-coated diamond combination. Just like Sloth from FMA, he surprised me by showing off that he's actually also one of the fastest characters in the series, making him just too deadly. I was thinking that Katakuri has no way of damaging him and that Jozu would win a battle of attrition, but I regress: Katakuri can predict his moves with CoO no matter how great his speed is, and he can suffocate him with mochi. I give Katakuri the win.
Queen - His bounty might be greater than Katakuri but I don't find him as impressive in a fight. Sure, he survived a couple hits from BM but I haven't seen much in terms of speed or any special technique so far. His bounty is likely due to how dangerous his twisted inventions are, but he wouldn't be able to use his virus in a normal 1vs1. He's more suited for chemical warfare.
Jack - Very strong. If not for Queen's attitude towards him (and viceversa), I'd consider putting him above Queen.
Charlotte Cracker - I'm not too sure on this one but Jack impressed me much more than him in his fight with the Sulongs. Not to mention Jack's fight with Inuarashi and Nekomamushi when he first appeared. So Cracker stays below.
Portgas D. Ace - I wasn't going to add him because we lack information on his real prowess before his time of death. He could be even higher (or lower) but I chose to put him here just to have Jesus Burgess even lower down the rank.
Jesus Burgess - The guy is a loudmouth but he was humiliated by Sabo. Sure, Sabo is a top tier character that became the strongest person in the Revolutionary Army after Dragon before he even had his Mera Mera logia, but that should only translate to being equivalent to YC1 or 2 in a Yonko's crew, at most. If Jesus was of that same tier he would have put a better fight. He's pretty much a weakling unless he gets his hands on some OP DF.
No idea about where to place Smoothie, Snack, Lucky Roux, Yasopp, Van Augur, Avalo Pizarro, Laffitte, Catarina, Vasco Shot or Doc Q but they all are likely to be very strong.
Special mention: Sanjuan Wolf - We don't know anything about this guy but until he's confirmed to be weaker than them, there's reason to believe he could be stronger than any YC DF-user YC. He's the only DF-user we have seen to be able to be in the ocean's waters and still act like normal and even use his DF abilities in the water. Which is impressive. The guy is ugly, but he's an ugly badass. Not to mention he's a level 6 escapee.
Vista - Before you lynch me, please hear me out. I'm not only placing him here to justify his clash with Mihawk, but for other reasons.
First Reason:
- Whitebeard's crew was special. He had guys like Marco, Oden and BB. Marco talked condescendingly to King and Queen, and was considered as something who could have taken down BB even when he already had 2 DFs. Oden was almost on WB's and Roger's level when they met, and even a bit above Kaido's. BB has become a Yonko, but even before that he had already scarred the man who would become our favorite Yonko. I believe guys like Vista and Jozu aren't normal either (not Yonko material, but above most YCs).
- The Roger's pirates and Whitebeard's clashed many times over the years before the fight we saw in the flashback. In the fight that we saw, after the initial clashes, it stands to reason that Roger mostly took on WB and Rayleigh on Oden. Who used to take on Rayleigh before Oden came around? Vista, who was already 20+ years old back then. I don't think he's necessarily as strong as Rayleigh, but he may be comparable to him and close to his level. It would also explain why Mihawk knows him in particular, since it's pretty clear that Rayleigh and Mihawk have some past together.
- As mentioned in the previous point, Vista was 20+ by then, just like Marco and Jozu, which is why I believe these guys are above most YCs: it's not only their powers, it's their experience as seasoned veterans. It makes sense to me that WB had some commanders that were even above some YC1s, and it also explains why no Yonko ever thought of invading his territories to take advantage of his illness. It's because not only was he still very strong while ill; his crew was very dangerous.
Wow, looking into the wiki to check I wasn't missing anyone I learnt that Vista had some filler scenes in the anime. I see that his clash with Mihawk was extended into a proper exchange of techniques. The anime adaptation of Marineford defiled Mihawk even more than I thought.
Let's see...
Benn Beckman - He's supposedly near Yonko-level so I'll place him first, but this is just a conjecture.
Oden - I'm not forgetting about this guy who used to be a YC. I'd place him first but he was killed too soon. He'd be Yonko-level now otherwise, but he did more damage (physically and mentally) to a younger Kaido than other guys like King seem to be able to. After all, Kaido hadn't remembered his trauma until he met the scabbards. None of his subordinates had reminded him of "Oden's haki".
Shiryu - Next I'm going with BB's YCs because they're likely the last YC opponents for the Strawhats. He's very likely Blackbeard's strongest warrior and Zoro's opponent when the time comes to face that crew. That is unless Sanjuan is some kind of monster that requires a Oars-like fight but I don't see Luffy fighting Blackbeard after needing to 10vs1 a YC, so Shiryu's likely above Sanjuan.
Marco - I place him above the other YC1s because of how little attention he's now paying to King and Queen. The guy straight up told Zoro and Robin why were they wasting their time with small fry and immediately offered Zoro to take him to Kaido, flying hims traight through those two's barrier.
Vista - Before you lynch me, please hear me out. I'm not only placing him here to justify his clash with Mihawk, but for other reasons.
First Reason:
- Whitebeard's crew was special. He had guys like Marco, Oden and BB. Marco talked condescendingly to King and Queen, and was considered as something who could have taken down BB even when he already had 2 DFs. Oden was almost on WB's and Roger's level when they met, and even a bit above Kaido's. BB has become a Yonko, but even before that he had already scarred the man who would become our favorite Yonko. I believe guys like Vista and Jozu aren't normal either (not Yonko material, but above most YCs).
- The Roger's pirates and Whitebeard's clashed many times over the years before the fight we saw in the flashback. In the fight that we saw, after the initial clashes, it stands to reason that Roger mostly took on WB and Rayleigh on Oden. Who used to take on Rayleigh before Oden came around? Vista, who was already 20+ years old back then. I don't think he's necessarily as strong as Rayleigh, but he may be comparable to him and close to his level. It would also explain why Mihawk knows him in particular, since it's pretty clear that Rayleigh and Mihawk have some past together.
- As mentioned in the previous point, Vista was 20+ by then, just like Marco and Jozu, which is why I believe these guys are above most YCs: it's not only their powers, it's their experience as seasoned veterans. It makes sense to me that WB had some commanders that were even above some YC1s, and it also explains why no Yonko ever thought of invading his territories to take advantage of his illness. It's because not only was he still very strong while ill; his crew was very dangerous.
King - Going by naming conventions, this guy's stronger than Queen and Jack. We don't know his bounty, but Queen's already dwarfs Katakuri's, so I bet King will dward Katakuri in bounty and be stronger than him. Comparable, but stronger.
Charlotte Katakuri - Badass and a great character overall. Strong as hell. Some people underestimate him because he doesn't have advanced CoA, but no other YC has showed his level of CoO (not even the Yonkos, actually) which is very impressive. Yes, he may go down from a couple of hits by Queen, but he'd dodge them all, and he can deal damage in a variety of ways or simply suffocate his enemies with his complex DF usage. He's strong.
Jozu - I was going to place this guy above Katakuri, to be honest, because while Katakuri has the strongest CoO and we have no information about how good Jozu's CoA is, we know that he can use it, and I strongly suspect that he's one of the most durable characters in the series with his haki-coated diamond combination. Just like Sloth from FMA, he surprised me by showing off that he's actually also one of the fastest characters in the series, making him just too deadly. I was thinking that Katakuri has no way of damaging him and that Jozu would win a battle of attrition, but I regress: Katakuri can predict his moves with CoO no matter how great his speed is, and he can suffocate him with mochi. I give Katakuri the win.
Queen - His bounty might be greater than Katakuri but I don't find him as impressive in a fight. Sure, he survived a couple hits from BM but I haven't seen much in terms of speed or any special technique so far. His bounty is likely due to how dangerous his twisted inventions are, but he wouldn't be able to use his virus in a normal 1vs1. He's more suited for chemical warfare.
Jack - Very strong. If not for Queen's attitude towards him (and viceversa), I'd consider putting him above Queen.
Charlotte Cracker - I'm not too sure on this one but Jack impressed me much more than him in his fight with the Sulongs. Not to mention Jack's fight with Inuarashi and Nekomamushi when he first appeared. So Cracker stays below.
Portgas D. Ace - I wasn't going to add him because we lack information on his real prowess before his time of death. He could be even higher (or lower) but I chose to put him here just to have Jesus Burgess even lower down the rank.
Jesus Burgess - The guy is a loudmouth but he was humiliated by Sabo. Sure, Sabo is a top tier character that became the strongest person in the Revolutionary Army after Dragon before he even had his Mera Mera logia, but that should only translate to being equivalent to YC1 or 2 in a Yonko's crew, at most. If Jesus was of that same tier he would have put a better fight. He's pretty much a weakling unless he gets his hands on some OP DF.
No idea about where to place Smoothie, Snack, Lucky Roux, Yasopp, Van Augur, Avalo Pizarro, Laffitte, Catarina, Vasco Shot or Doc Q but they all are likely to be very strong.
Special mention: Sanjuan Wolf - We don't know anything about this guy but until he's confirmed to be weaker than them, there's reason to believe he could be stronger than any YC DF-user YC. He's the only DF-user we have seen to be able to be in the ocean's waters and still act like normal and even use his DF abilities in the water. Which is impressive. The guy is ugly, but he's an ugly badass. Not to mention he's a level 6 escapee.
You have not provided a good explanation as to why he's ranked so high when if anything, he's an excellent support and able to take attacks because of his fruit power. He hasn't shown anything that can take down an opponent, has he?
I didn't place Rayleigh because Roger was never a Yonko. It's true that Oden served under WB before he was one but he was already called "fleet commander".
You have not provided a good explanation as to why he's ranked so high when if anything, he's an excellent support and able to take attacks because of his fruit power. He hasn't shown anything that can take down an opponent, has he?
He wasn't at Akainu's level but that doesn't tell us anything, because Akainu made Blackbeard run away at the simple sight of his ship when the guy had already his titanic commanders and the gura gura.
Marco wouldn't have been considered by the WG as "a man who could potentially take down BB", he wouldn't have been WB's right hand man and he wouldn't have just completely ignored Kaido's YC 1 and 2 if he wasn't deserving of being top tier (among the YCs).
It is true that he has yet to show exactly how strong his attacking capabilities are, and I may be in for a disappointment, but I have reason to believe he is that strong.
You have not provided a good explanation as to why he's ranked so high when if anything, he's an excellent support and able to take attacks because of his fruit power. He hasn't shown anything that can take down an opponent, has he?
I didn't place Rayleigh because Roger was never a Yonko. It's true that Oden served under WB before he was one but he was already called "fleet commander"
Roger also called Rayleigh and Scopper his "top commanders"
If Oden had the potential to be a Yonko level then Rayleigh had already the level of an Admiral.
He's the "Dark" King because he chose to stay behind Roger's shadow instead of becoming one himself
In Stampede, even if it's not really canon, Bullet was said to almost match Rayleigh in strength and that same guy needed a buster call with both Garp and Sengoku to be taken down.
I don't know if I can rank them all.
