One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Me:Jinbei's attack is internal so you won't see physical signs of it as he is using the water within one's body to attack.

You: See, Jinbei just pushed Big Mom as there is no sign he hurt her....

Thanks for proving my point


And you say Big Mom wasnt at 100% when Jinbei attacked her but ignore the fact Kaido was not at 100% either when Zoro cut him, dont be a hypocrite now.

Me: We have seen people show visual signs or damage when internal damage has happened and Big Mom showed none.

You: Ima just ignore that.

Don't bother replying if this is what you're gonna muster up.

Acting as Jinbei's opponents have NEVER shown any signs of damage from being attacked by him LMAO.

Kaido when Zoro damaged him had taken negligible damage, Luffy's blows to Kaido were described by himself as being too shallow before his advanced CoC, yet you brought that up like Kaido had taken any real damage. Big Mam, on the other hand, was starving to the point where we were seeing her physical body deteriorate. But yeah, try and make that comparison like they both had a similar effect.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Me: We have seen people show visual signs or damage when internal damage has happened and Big Mom showed none.

You: Ima just ignore that.

Don't bother replying if this is what you're gonna muster up.

Acting as Jinbei's opponents have NEVER shown any signs of damage from being attacked by him LMAO.

Kaido when Zoro damaged him had taken negligible damage, Luffy's blows to Kaido were described by himself as being too shallow before his advanced CoC, yet you brought that up like Kaido had taken any real damage. Big Mam, on the other hand, was starving to the point where we were seeing her physical condition deteriorate. But yeah, try and make that comparison like they both had a similar effect.

Jinbei sent Big Mom flying. Zoro couldn't move Kaido an inch. Big Mom actually reacted to Jinbei's hit while Kaido didn't even react.

I'll just use your own logic against you if you wanna be like that.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Jinbei sent Big Mom flying. Zoro couldn't move Kaido an inch. Big Mom actually reacted to Jinbei's hit while Kaido didn't even react.

I'll just use your own logic against you if you wanna be like that.

So you got nothing? You had a poor argument which only worked if you ignored people show signs of damage from internal attacks. You resorted to trolling and using "mY LogIc" which really isn't my logic. You were better off but keeping quiet and saying our opinions differed.

This is why I usually just stop replying after a couple of responses. A lot of you just be replying for the sake of replying instead of reading what's being typed at you.

 

[Pirate Queen]

So you got nothing? You had a poor argument which only worked if you ignored people show signs of damage from internal attacks. You resorted to trolling and using "mY LogIc" which really isn't my logic. You were better off but keeping quiet and saying our opinions differed.

You can stop at anytime. I don't have to prove to you Jinbei's Fishman Larate does internal damage. The manga says that. Your not refuting me, your refuting Oda... which is ridiculous.


Feel free not to respond but, knowing you... I'm sure you'll keep going for the sake of arguing

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 26, 2021, Original Post Date: Jul 26, 2021 ---

Wait, i thought Zoro's attack on Kaido was with Kaido using future sight? Anyways, that was a quick enough attack to confuse the best, it would work on Katakuri, even if it isnt enough to take him down.

Does Kaido know FS? I dont think he does

 

[Nie Li]

You can stop at anytime. I don't have to prove to you Jinbei's Fishman Larate does internal damage. The manga says that. Your not refuting me, your refuting Oda... which is ridiculous.


Feel free not to respond but, knowing you... I'm sure you'll keep going for the sake of arguing

Your point here is: "Fishman Karate does internal damage so Jinbei dealt damage to Big Mom". So I guess Kuroobi can injure Big Mom since his fishman karate attacks also deal internal damage.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Your point here is: "Fishman Karate does internal damage so Jinbei dealt damage to Big Mom". So I guess Kuroobi can injure Big Mom since his fishman karate attacks also deal internal damage.

Probably feel like no more that an itch to a powerhouse like big Mom, but yes.

Even regular bullets were hurting a monster like Whitebeard. Just because Kuroobi is weak doesn't mean the basis of his attack is negated. If Fishman karate bypasses defenses to focus on the manipulation of water internally why wouldn't it work? The problem is Kuroobi wouldn't even reach Big Mom before Zeus fish fries him.

Luffy used Red Roc with internal destruction CoA and Kaido was completely fine, showing even with internal destruction attacks if your opponent is a monster they won't react to the damage much.

 

[Nie Li]

Probably feel like no more that an itch to a powerhouse like big Mom, but yes.

Even regular bullets were hurting a monster like Whitebeard. Just because Kuroobi is weak doesn't mean the basis of his attack is negated. If Fishman karate bypasses defenses to focus on the manipulation of water internally why wouldn't it work? The problem is Kuroobi wouldn't even reach Big Mom before Zeus fish fries him.

Luffy used Red Roc with internal destruction CoA and Kaido was completely fine, showing even with internal destruction attacks if your opponent is a monster they won't react to the damage much.

The last paragraph is a direct contradiction to the previous paragraph. Luffy being still too weak when compared to Kaido, a monster, is the reason why he just barely hurt him instead of directly knocking him out. Just like it is for external damage, there are weaker and stronger internal attacks, and just it being internal tells us nothing about if it is strong enough to deal what can be considered damage.

About Jinbei:
Jinbei can hurt Big Mom just as much as Kuroobi can hurt Big Mom: we didn't see any sign of her being injured (and there are signs of that when characters are injured internally), so while it's proven that Jinbei possesses attacks that work by internal damage, that's not enough to assume he can really injure Big Mom, much less injure her as much as Zoro injured Kaido.

To put this into perspective, imagine if there was a character who for some reason was immune to internal damage but could be injured by strong enough external hits. Garp hitting that character to the face would probably injure him badly, but what if I punched him on the face? Sure, my external attack would avoid his "internal durability", but we would have no basis to say that I'm strong enough to deal any damage externally either. Same thing for Jinbei, there was no sign that he dealt damage to her, because even if he attacked her internally he lacked the strength to do more. He pushed her backwards? That doesn't imply damage at all. Luffy pushed Kaido to the ground without internal damage in their first exchange and he clearly didn't damage him.

Another way to showcase this is by comparing Zoro and the Scabbards. They both had the means to go beyond his durability, but the Scabbards weren't strong enough for the damage to be significant, but Zoro was.

About Zoro:
You said Kaido didn't react to Zoro's Asura slash? Well, Kaido got a bleeding open wound on his chest and praised him for giving him a scar, a wound on Oden's slash level, giving him the praise he didn't give any of the scabbards. This alone is enough of a reaction. The previous panels we were seeing Kaido's back so of course we didn't get his face while the cut happened. The feat means Zoro's top attack strength is above all the scabbards together (they all slashed the same spot together when they failed to reopen his scar, and Zoro gave him a new scar).

Conclusion:
Zoro's top strength is worlds above what Jinbei has shown so far, because pushing Big Mom backwards (only thing we saw) and giving Kaido a scar are worlds apart, but this doesn't mean Zoro would win ten out of ten fights against Jinbei because there are many more things to a fight that just "top strength". Though if they started the fight by clashing a Fishman Karate punch and Asura's slash, there would be Jinbe sashimi for dinner.

Spoiler: Bonus

About Whitebeard:
Whitebeard's monstruous strength never included a durability on par with Kaido's and Big Mom's, so he's not a good example. Whitebeard was hurt by bullets because he was not difficult to injure, at least in the state he was in during Marineford. Even Marco talked about how a healthy WB would have dodged Squardo, not that the knife would have normally just broken against him.

And yes, you can attribute the feat to Enma if you want, but all the arguments stand. When talking about Zoro's current PL we talk about Zoro wielding his current swords just like Jinbei employs his mastery of karate.

 

[Pirate Queen]

The last paragraph is a direct contradiction to the previous paragraph. Luffy being still too weak when compared to Kaido, a monster, is the reason why he just barely hurt him instead of directly knocking him out. Just like it is for external damage, there are weaker and stronger internal attacks, and just it being internal tells us nothing about if it is strong enough to deal what can be considered damage.

About Jinbei:
Jinbei can hurt Big Mom just as much as Kuroobi can hurt Big Mom: we didn't see any sign of her being injured (and there are signs of that when characters are injured internally), so while it's proven that Jinbei possesses attacks that work by internal damage, that's not enough to assume he can really injure Big Mom, much less injure her as much as Zoro injured Kaido.

To put this into perspective, imagine if there was a character who for some reason was immune to internal damage but could be injured by strong enough external hits. Garp hitting that character to the face would probably injure him badly, but what if I punched him on the face? Sure, my external attack would avoid his "internal durability", but we would have no basis to say that I'm strong enough to deal any damage externally either. Same thing for Jinbei, there was no sign that he dealt damage to her, because even if he attacked her internally he lacked the strength to do more. He pushed her backwards? That doesn't imply damage at all. Luffy pushed Kaido to the ground without internal damage in their first exchange and he clearly didn't damage him.

Another way to showcase this is by comparing Zoro and the Scabbards. They both had the means to go beyond his durability, but the Scabbards weren't strong enough for the damage to be significant, but Zoro was.

About Zoro:
You said Kaido didn't react to Zoro's Asura slash? Well, Kaido got a bleeding open wound on his chest and praised him for giving him a wound on Oden's slash level, giving him the praise he didn't give any of the scabbards. This alone is enough of a reaction. The previous panels we were seeing Kaido's back so of course we didn't get his face while the it happened. The feat means Zoro's top attack strength is above all the scabbards together (they all slashed the same spot together when they failed to reopen his scar, and Zoro gave him a new scar).

Conclusion:
Zoro's top strength is worlds above what Jinbei has shown so far, because pushing Big Mom backwards (only thing we saw) and giving Kaido a scar are worlds apart, but this doesn't mean Zoro would win ten out of ten fights against Jinbei because there are many more things to a fight that just "top strength". Though if they started the fight by clashing a Fishman Karate punch and Asura's slash, there would be Jinbe sashimi for dinner.

Spoiler: Bonus

About Whitebeard:
Whitebeard's monstruous strength never included a durability on par with Kaido's and Big Mom's, so he's not a good example. Whitebeard was hurt by bullets because he was not difficult to injure, at least in the state he was in during Marineford. Even Marco talked about how a healthy WB would have dodged Squardo, not that the knife would have normally just broken against him.

And yes, you can attribute the feat to Enma if you want, but all the arguments stand. When talking about Zoro's current PL we talk about Zoro wielding his current swords just like Jinbei employs his mastery of karate.

Wow, I disagree with most of what you are saying but I figured I would.

Definitely an interesting take you have

 

[M3J]

Wait, i thought Zoro's attack on Kaido was with Kaido using future sight? Anyways, that was a quick enough attack to confuse the best, it would work on Katakuri, even if it isnt enough to take him down.

Why would you think that? If it was on Kaidou without Future SIght, then it wouldn't work on Katakuri because he'd have enough time to dodge it.

 

[Nie Li]

Why would you think that? If it was on Kaidou without Future SIght, then it wouldn't work on Katakuri because he'd have enough time to dodge it.

I don't think Kaido has FS, but it could be argued that Kaido can move so fast that even a ready FS-user like Luffy can barely dodge him, so Kaido is not too different from a FS-user even without it.

Then again, it could also be argued Kaido was caught off guard by Asura so Zoro slashing him is not really a matter of speed at all. Kaido underestimated him. A ready Kaido that knows what Zoro can do to his chest is more likely to dodge or successfully block.

Katakuri was overall overpowered, but I believe all "YC1"s are well-balanced but each probably shines differently. Just like Marco shines in his regeneration but is lacking in the rest, Katakuri only really shines in his Future Sight. Not to say his CoA is weak in a world scale but it probably is in comparison to some other YC1s. King is probably physically stronger on top of his ancient zoan-based regeneration, durability and resilience (and we have yet to see if his race has any unique powers). Beckman is probably an all-rounder but we will know better when we see him fighting.

No matter how overpowered FS seemed against Luffy's strength in that arc, I believe it can be overcome or equalled by having similarly overpowered stats in other types of haki or DF abilities. Hell, his FS fails entirely as soon as he loses his cool or gets frustrated, with can easily happen in the kind of drawn out battle he would likely have against someone like King.

I expect the Yonkous to be similar in that regard. All similarly overpowered but not for the same reasons.

So anyway, in conclusion (TL;DR): Zoro hasn't shown how he can overcome FS yet, nor the speed to do so, so Katakuri should win by feats alone, but Zoro's CoA and CoO are both pretty great so far, so if he soloes King (someone who should be on Katakuri's level by narrative alone) he'll instantly become more than a fair opponent for Katakuri. Even currently, just to throw some ideas in, Zoro could always pull shonen stuff like "slash everywhere blindly" like Luffy did against Enel or just keep Katakuri off the ground until he gets cornered and can't dodge similar to how he handled Pica.

 

[Fox666]

Wait, i thought Zoro's attack on Kaido was with Kaido using future sight? Anyways, that was a quick enough attack to confuse the best, it would work on Katakuri, even if it isnt enough to take him down.

Kaido doesn't have future sight.

Luffy even used it to his advantage, dodging attacks that would be otherwise impossible... if Kaido had it too, he would just outspeed Luffy.

 

[hokageji]

No confirmation that Kaido knows Future Sight.

Does Kaido know FS? I dont think he does

Kaido doesn't have future sight.

Luffy even used it to his advantage, dodging attacks that would be otherwise impossible... if Kaido had it too, he would just outspeed Luffy.

Oh okay, i think i misunderstood the part when Luffy used it and failed...

Why would you think that? If it was on Kaidou without Future SIght, then it wouldn't work on Katakuri because he'd have enough time to dodge it.

Actually, Luffy used future sight against Kaido and yet wasnt able to react quick enough.. Now its a safe sassumption that Luffy's FS is on par with Katakuri, but yet Kaido managed to land some fearsome attacks on Luffy..

And also, Katakuri wouldn't be able to escape elemental attacks as easily against Kaido.. even with FS...

 

[M3J]

I don't think Kaido has FS, but it could be argued that Kaido can move so fast that even a ready FS-user like Luffy can barely dodge him, so Kaido is not too different from a FS-user even without it.

Then again, it could also be argued Kaido was caught off guard by Asura so Zoro slashing him is not really a matter of speed at all. Kaido underestimated him. A ready Kaido that knows what Zoro can do to his chest is more likely to dodge or successfully block.

Katakuri was overall overpowered, but I believe all "YC1"s are well-balanced but each probably shines differently. Just like Marco shines in his regeneration but is lacking in the rest, Katakuri only really shines in his Future Sight. Not to say his CoA is weak in a world scale but it probably is in comparison to some other YC1s. King is probably physically stronger on top of his ancient zoan-based regeneration, durability and resilience (and we have yet to see if his race has any unique powers). Beckman is probably an all-rounder but we will know better when we see him fighting.

No matter how overpowered FS seemed against Luffy's strength in that arc, I believe it can be overcome or equalled by having similarly overpowered stats in other types of haki or DF abilities. Hell, his FS fails entirely as soon as he loses his cool or gets frustrated, with can easily happen in the kind of drawn out battle he would likely have against someone like King.

I expect the Yonkous to be similar in that regard. All similarly overpowered but not for the same reasons.

So anyway, in conclusion (TL;DR): Zoro hasn't shown how he can overcome FS yet, nor the speed to do so, so Katakuri should win by feats alone, but Zoro's CoA and CoO are both pretty great so far, so if he soloes King (someone who should be on Katakuri's level by narrative alone) he'll instantly become more than a fair opponent for Katakuri. Even currently, just to throw some ideas in, Zoro could always pull shonen stuff like "slash everywhere blindly" like Luffy did against Enel or just keep Katakuri off the ground until he gets cornered and can't dodge similar to how he handled Pica.

But what about defensively? Even if Kaidou is fast, Future Sight would prevent him from getting hurt and coming up with a good counter. If he had Future Sight, then he'd have likely dodged Zoro's attacks cleanly.

THat's exactly what I'm saying, and why we shouldn't use Luffy's difficulty against Katakuri as proof that Zoro or Sanji would struggle or lose to other captains! King could be stronger than Katakuri and still lose just because he doesn't have Future Sight, and even more likely since Luffy does.

I'm not entirely sure, because if you can't hit the opponent, you can't do any damage while they can hurt back. It'd come down to the stronger haki or more endurance and durability, especially with someone who's almost always calm, like Katakuri.

 

[hokageji]

But what about defensively? Even if Kaidou is fast, Future Sight would prevent him from getting hurt and coming up with a good counter. If he had Future Sight, then he'd have likely dodged Zoro's attacks cleanly.

Kaido has the strongest armor in OP so far, he doesn't need that many defensive abilities, or atleast thats my guess... ALso, i think FS might not be the highest form of CoO... Whitebeard and Big Mama manage to subconsciously defend themselves as well.. FS works great too but perhaps the other ability is a lot more important specially when you have a strong armor.

THat's exactly what I'm saying, and why we shouldn't use Luffy's difficulty against Katakuri as proof that Zoro or Sanji would struggle or lose to other captains! King could be stronger than Katakuri and still lose just because he doesn't have Future Sight, and even more likely since Luffy does.

I'm not entirely sure, because if you can't hit the opponent, you can't do any damage while they can hurt back. It'd come down to the stronger haki or more endurance and durability, especially with someone who's almost always calm, like Katakuri.

but Kaido is so fast and with an inpenetrable shield, he should easy to beat

 

[Pirate Queen]

Luffy is starting to show he can use CoC unconsciously as he knocked out Kaido's men after Kaido put him in the dirt

 

[HereNThere]

And also, Katakuri wouldn't be able to escape elemental attacks as easily against Kaido.. even with FS...

Katakuri would have his Mochi intangibility to fall back on. Doesn't seem like Kaido imbued his elemental attacks with haki.

Kaido has the strongest armor in OP so far, he doesn't need that many defensive abilities, or atleast thats my guess... ALso, i think FS might not be the highest form of CoO... Whitebeard and Big Mama manage to subconsciously defend themselves as well.. FS works great too but perhaps the other ability is a lot more important specially when you have a strong armor.

At this point it is. It's highly likely that Whitebeard's feat against Ace was probably just regular CoO and he's just capable of being battle-ready 100% of the time. He didn't subconsciously defend himself, he woke up the instant Ace attacked and went straight back to sleep after knocking him away. The Big Mom moment was just played up for gags. Otherwise, she would've sensed the multiple intruders rather than just mistaking them for a bug.

Oda has consistency issues in general with CoO use, but Big Mom, in particular, has a pretty poor showing of it. I'd expect her to have much better reactions to certain attacks if she was capable of subconsciously using it.

but Kaido is so fast and with an inpenetrable shield, he should easy to beat

Katakuri should really get the benefit of the doubt. It really feels like the context of the actual turn of events of that fight is starting to be forgotten, because a lot of people seem to be thinking that he's at the bottom of the top tier heap for some reason just because he lost to Luffy, which isn't the case. Despite his victory, I'm fairly certain that Luffy was still weaker than him for a good chunk of Wano. And I think, had Katakuri been on the roof, their performance would've shot up substantially. Now, whether or not Katakuri would be capable of leaving a scar on Kaido is debatable, but I'm sure he'd be able to injure him in some form or fashion. If the Red Scabbards can do it, he can. And that's not even considering the possibility that he may have CoCA.

 

[M3J]

Actually, Luffy used future sight against Kaido and yet wasnt able to react quick enough.. Now its a safe sassumption that Luffy's FS is on par with Katakuri, but yet Kaido managed to land some fearsome attacks on Luffy..

And also, Katakuri wouldn't be able to escape elemental attacks as easily against Kaido.. even with FS...

How far ahead, and was it the same as Katakuri's? Katakuri seemed to be able to see seconds ahead.

Kaido has the strongest armor in OP so far, he doesn't need that many defensive abilities, or atleast thats my guess... ALso, i think FS might not be the highest form of CoO... Whitebeard and Big Mama manage to subconsciously defend themselves as well.. FS works great too but perhaps the other ability is a lot more important specially when you have a strong armor.


but Kaido is so fast and with an inpenetrable shield, he should easy to beat

technically, Big Mom does as she almost never gets wounded, while Kaidou has more than three times.

It depends though? Because if you can't land a hit or if they can't cause damage, then it's about who can last longer.

 

[hokageji]

Katakuri would have his Mochi intangibility to fall back on. Doesn't seem like Kaido imbued his elemental attacks with haki.

fire, lightening should still affect Katakuri... it hits a surface.. specially lightening, which travels at near light speed and would hit the target no matter what..

Katakuri should really get the benefit of the doubt. It really feels like the context of the actual turn of events of that fight is starting to be forgotten, because a lot of people seem to be thinking that he's at the bottom of the top tier heap for some reason just because he lost to Luffy, which isn't the case. Despite his victory, I'm fairly certain that Luffy was still weaker than him for a good chunk of Wano. And I think, had Katakuri been on the roof, their performance would've shot up substantially. Now, whether or not Katakuri would be capable of leaving a scar on Kaido is debatable, but I'm sure he'd be able to injure him in some form or fashion. If the Red Scabbards can do it, he can. And that's not even considering the possibility that he may have CoCA.

I dont see why he should get the benefit of the doubt. Kaido's fast, insanely fast ... if snake man could hit him, no reason why Kaido's speed wouldnt.

How far ahead, and was it the same as Katakuri's? Katakuri seemed to be able to see seconds ahead.

So is Luffy, and even if Katakuri can see the attack coming, he should be fast enough to be able to dodge it.. His logiesque ability wouldn't allow him complete protection... Sure Katakuri can benefit with it against others but its still not gonna allow him an edge over Kaido.

 

[Ramen]

specially lightening, which travels at near light speed

Lightning doesn't move at light speed.

 

[HereNThere]

fire, lightening should still affect Katakuri... it hits a surface.. specially lightening, which travels at near light speed and would hit the target no matter what..

Katakuri hasn't shown any particular weakness to fire. Hell, one of his techniques uses flames. Lightning is tricker, but I have to imagine it's not going to affect mochi much. Hell, as much as that scene made no sense to me, all 4 non Rubber Supernova took on Big Mom's pure lightning strikes (which I assume are equal too or a bit stronger than Kaido's) directly with no ill effect. I certainly wouldn't say their durability is significatly above Katakuri's. He should be fine.

I dont see why he should get the benefit of the doubt. Kaido's fast, insanely fast ... if snake man could hit him, no reason why Kaido's speed wouldnt.

Snakeman could indeed hit him, but Katakuri was still capable of both blocking and dodging said attacks, even to the point where he was able to counter Luffy several times. If Luffy could manage a (by a hair) dodge, I don't see why Katakuri couldn't.