One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

goldb

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Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

  • For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
  • Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
  • Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
  • We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

  1. Shanks v Mihawk
  2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
  3. Zoro > Luffy
  4. Zoro v Sanji
  5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
  6. Mihawk's rank within the story
  7. Law having CoC currently.
  8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.
 
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albertwv

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After chapter 1023 someone will still say that characters like Shanks, Big Mom, Kizaru and Fujitora are weaker than Mihawk?
ONLY if they are talking about overall strength not just because a title and wield swords. If thats their reasoning then they are ignorant
 

M3J

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After chapter 1023 someone will still say that characters like Shanks, Big Mom, Kizaru and Fujitora are weaker than Mihawk?
They will because they love being wrong and stupid.

Funnily, Mihawk is rarely ever mentioned, not as often as Shanks or Big MOm is.
 

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They will because they love being wrong and stupid.

Funnily, Mihawk is rarely ever mentioned, not as often as Shanks or Big MOm is.
How could I ever miss that. Everybody knows the more a character is mentioned in a manga, the stronger he is.
 

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They will because they love being wrong and stupid.

Funnily, Mihawk is rarely ever mentioned, not as often as Shanks or Big MOm is.
Mihawk is not very relevant to the story right now. That’s all. He doesn’t have a crew. He is a lone wolf. He doesn’t make a lot of noise. He is just minding his own business.

Also it’s not very nice to call people stupid.
 

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How could I ever miss that. Everybody knows the more a character is mentioned in a manga, the stronger he is.
Exactly, but he's almost never mentioned when characters talk about strong people. No one ever says, "well, Mihawk isn't an emperor but he's superior to Shanks since he's the World's Greatest Swordsman!" or "Mihawk is a threat to the Emperors!"

Also it’s not very nice to call people stupid.
Then they shouldn't be stupid.
 

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They will because they love being wrong and stupid.

Funnily, Mihawk is rarely ever mentioned, not as often as Shanks or Big MOm is.
As you said, Mihawk is someone of practically zero relevance to the story.

On theory Mihawk would have some consequence since Zoro's goal is to defeat him.

But in practice, Mihawk is as important as that guy who's body got stuck in a treasure chest, or the old man that Aokiji helped cross the ocean.

He's just another character with a 2 chapters story arc who disappeared from the story, except for some random chapter cover.

It's funny that he's even in the latest popularity pool just because of his "strongest something" title. Of all characters there - Katakuri, Perona, Reiju - he's the least important one. Even Hancock's pet snake appeared more than him in the manga, and he wasn't even in the pool.
 

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Then they shouldn't be stupid.
Well you don’t claim to have all knowledge? You can’t really say someone is stupid for believing that Mihawk is stronger than certain characters when his power level has not yet been fully revealed.

Besides it’s still not a good excuse to be rude.
 

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Reasons why people believe Mihawk is top tier or at least stronger than Yonko who wield swords:

1. MIhawk was given by Oda the title of "World's strongest swordsman" because of that title, anyone in One Piece who wields a sword is by definition inferior to him in strength.
2. He was rivals/had various duels with Shanks prior to 10 years ago when Shanks was not a Yonko, but once Shanks lost his right arm, Mihawk decided to not duel him anymore because Mihawk had no interest in fighting a one-armed person.
3. He is Zolo's end goal to defeat, therefore he MUST be Zolo's end of series opponent and by manga definition, whoever is EOS villain/opponent must be insanely strong, stronger than anybody faced before them.
4. If I am missing anything else, please let me know.

There are many flaws behind this reasoning.
 

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Reasons why people believe Mihawk is top tier or at least stronger than Yonko who wield swords:

1. MIhawk was given by Oda the title of "World's strongest swordsman" because of that title, anyone in One Piece who wields a sword is by definition inferior to him in strength.
2. He was rivals/had various duels with Shanks prior to 10 years ago when Shanks was not a Yonko, but once Shanks lost his right arm, Mihawk decided to not duel him anymore because Mihawk had no interest in fighting a one-armed person.
3. He is Zolo's end goal to defeat, therefore he MUST be Zolo's end of series opponent and by manga definition, whoever is EOS villain/opponent must be insanely strong, stronger than anybody faced before them.
4. If I am missing anything else, please let me know.

There are many flaws behind this reasoning.
I don’t agree with number 1, but 2 and 3 are both quite convincing to me.

Especially the end goal argument. Mihawk must be stronger than the prime version of Oden (because of the black sword). And Oden was listed by Kaido among the top-tier fighters (like Yonko) who can fight him.

Zoro, who was at the time obviously below Yonko level, was already able to deal damage to Kaido and stop, albeit for just a few seconds, a combo attack from two Yonkos. At the time Zoro cut Kaido he was already weakened by the aforementioned combo attack.

So it only makes sense to assume that Zoro’s end goal — Mihawk, can outperform Zoro in how much damage he can cause to a character of Kaido’s caliber.
 

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Can't they just be, you know, comparable? As has been the implications for years now?
 

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I don't want to encourage resparking this topic, but I'll answer this one post in a fully informative tone as someone who believes in Mihawk's strength.

Reasons why people believe Mihawk is top tier or at least stronger than Yonko who wield swords:

1. MIhawk was given by Oda the title of "World's strongest swordsman" because of that title, anyone in One Piece who wields a sword is by definition inferior to him in strength.
2. He was rivals/had various duels with Shanks prior to 10 years ago when Shanks was not a Yonko, but once Shanks lost his right arm, Mihawk decided to not duel him anymore because Mihawk had no interest in fighting a one-armed person.
3. He is Zolo's end goal to defeat, therefore he MUST be Zolo's end of series opponent and by manga definition, whoever is EOS villain/opponent must be insanely strong, stronger than anybody faced before them.
4. If I am missing anything else, please let me know.

There are many flaws behind this reasoning.
I'll tell what you're missing, in my opinion. But I want to highlight that I don't want to enter the Mihawk vs Shanks discussion and I'm only making this post to inform of why I personally believe Mihawk can be that strong, so you, and anyone else who reads this, may hopefully understand why some of us believe in this, even if you don't change your mind.

- Mihawk's only narrative purpose to the story, the whole point of his character's existence: if Shanks is stronger than Mihawk, then Zoro won't achieve his dream until he defeats Shanks; the stronger swordsman. Mihawk's sole existence in the story is to serve the purpose of being the personification of Zoro's objective. Becoming the strongest swordsman in the world, by itself, is a very blurred concept. How do you have Zoro prove that? Defeating Shanks, Big Mom and everyone else by himself? Would that still really prove it? Perhaps Rayleigh is stronger, or that Gorosei with a blade, how do you give the readers the satisfaction of eventually seeing Zoro achieve his dream? Making a personification of his dream, someone who already is the strongest for him to defeat: Mihawk. If Mihawk is not that strong, he has no purpose, and actually immediately becomes a much, much worse character by failing at the only thing that gives the character meaning.

- Mihawk's vivre card.
People claim vivre cards can be wrong, but there's nothing to indicate that it is, and the example they pull to say vivre cards have been wrong about something important before was that in Shanks vivre card they accidentally messed up the order of two events in a timeline. That kind of error is very different to making up a whole paragraph on a character, and the vivre cards have introduced trustworthy canon information before, so I don't doubt it without good reason.
I only highlighted the paragraph where Shanks is mentioned, but all of the above paragraphs are equally interesting, like he becoming famous before Roger's execution and running out of worthy challengers. Related to that, I'll also say that we have no information on why Mihawk and Shanks stopped dueling. The whole one-armed thing is an assumption from what could just have been a friendly taunt.

In any case, this is just my interpretation, but that particular paragraph sounds like Shanks is still the greatest challenge in Mihawk's past to becoming the strongest and he wishes someone even stronger will appear in his future to give him a thrill.

And I'll make it a different point, but the paragraph about him sailing freely is another reason why I trust Mihawk.

- Mihawk's lack of crew.
What makes a Yonkou a Yonkou? First of all, they need to be pirates, secondly, they need to be incredibly powerful (though there are people who can give them a challenge other than other Yonkous), and finally they need to own BIG chunks of territories in the New World. All Yonkou's crews are big, some more than others, while Mihawk hasn't got a single crewmate, and this has many implications.
1: Even is Mihawk was stronger as a duelist in a 1vs1, he would still be weaker as a pirate. If Mihawk got into a fight with Kaido or Big Mom, he would get overwhelmed by their crews whether he wants it or not. No matter how much stronger some characters are compared to fodder, big numbers are always depicted as significant in the series, and it's not like all Yonkou Commanders are complete pushovers.
This makes Mihawk powerless when speaking about "piracy" regardless of his individual strength which is why he's not brought up when talking about the pirate's summit. He's barely a pirate, in reality: he has no jolly roger and no interest in the One Piece.

2: Without a single crewmate or even a ship, Marines considered him dangerous enough and feared enough to make him into a Shichibukai instead of just capturing him (like they will attempt now with their new superweapons). The other Shichibukai (except Law, who took a hardcore path to get his position) had pretty dangerous crews to back them up, like the fish-man pirates, the kuja tribe or the Donquixote Family.

3: As a Shichibukai, he's despised by most pirates, who consider them dogs of the government. However, Mihawk has been freely sailing all alone through the New World and Yonkou territories for the 20 years since Roger's death.

- Mihawk's bounty.
Shichibukai's bounties didn't mean much over the course of the series. All of them were supposed to have become much stronger over the years after having their bounties frozen as Shichibukai. However, the first Shichibukai to be introduced to the story is the only one who hasn't got his bounty revealed yet. This doesn't mean it's gonna be the highest we have ever seen, but it does seem like Oda is saving it real good. Now their bounties have been unfrozen, so it's gonna be very relevant again when it gets revealed.


And I think that is all, other than the most obvious point of all: Mihawk is above anything Zoro shows before they fight.
 

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As you said, Mihawk is someone of practically zero relevance to the story.

On theory Mihawk would have some consequence since Zoro's goal is to defeat him.

But in practice, Mihawk is as important as that guy who's body got stuck in a treasure chest, or the old man that Aokiji helped cross the ocean.

He's just another character with a 2 chapters story arc who disappeared from the story, except for some random chapter cover.

It's funny that he's even in the latest popularity pool just because of his "strongest something" title. Of all characters there - Katakuri, Perona, Reiju - he's the least important one. Even Hancock's pet snake appeared more than him in the manga, and he wasn't even in the pool.
He is of some relevance though? I mean, the emperors were mentioned often enough in Part I, but it was only Zoro (I think) who mentioned Mihawk, despite going up against multiple swordsmen. For someone who's supposed to be one of the strongest, you'd think Mihawk would be mentioned more. He's definitely more important than those people as long as he has the title of World's Greatest Swordsman, simply because he has what Zoro is looking for.

It makes sense though, because of Mihawk's aura and how he was portrayed. I like Mihawk, and even in Marineford War arc saga he was cool.

Well you don’t claim to have all knowledge? You can’t really say someone is stupid for believing that Mihawk is stronger than certain characters when his power level has not yet been fully revealed.

Besides it’s still not a good excuse to be rude.
Yes I can, if their reasoning for believing MIhawk is stronger is primarily because of ZOro or desire to see Zoro be the strongest. That's mainly the basis for why most people keep arguing that Mihawk is stronger than Shanks, etc, because they believe when Zoro beats Mihawk, he'll be the strongest and not the strongest swordsman, even though Mihawk's title is related to his swordsmanship only, and nothing else. Mihawk's defenders are refusing to acknowledge the fact that Mihawk being the best swordsman doesn't mean he's an overall stronger fighter.


Don't care, I'm not being rude anyway.
 

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I don't see that this chapter has changed anything. We still don't know how Mihawk really stands compared to the Yonko.

This "pure swordman" bs promises to become annoying veeeery soon. What does it change ? Who said Shanks was only a swordsman? None of the Yonko are anyway. Neither are the admirals (including Fujitora: calling on meteors and manipulating gravity isn't swordplay, even if you use a sword for show).

So the possibility of both the Yonko AND the admirals being stronger than Mihawk still exists.

The argument about Shanks and Mihawk having dueled before doesn't mean shit either. For all we know, either could have become stronger than the other since.

And Mihawks statement about not wanting to fight a one armed man can't be taken at face value (sounds more like his idea of a friendly taunt to me). No proof of anything anywhere.

But I believe he's in the admirals/yonko tier. Maybe somewhere in between.
 

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He is of some relevance though? I mean, the emperors were mentioned often enough in Part I, but it was only Zoro (I think) who mentioned Mihawk, despite going up against multiple swordsmen. For someone who's supposed to be one of the strongest, you'd think Mihawk would be mentioned more. He's definitely more important than those people as long as he has the title of World's Greatest Swordsman, simply because he has what Zoro is looking for.

It makes sense though, because of Mihawk's aura and how he was portrayed. I like Mihawk, and even in Marineford War arc saga he was cool.



Yes I can, if their reasoning for believing MIhawk is stronger is primarily because of ZOro or desire to see Zoro be the strongest. That's mainly the basis for why most people keep arguing that Mihawk is stronger than Shanks, etc, because they believe when Zoro beats Mihawk, he'll be the strongest and not the strongest swordsman, even though Mihawk's title is related to his swordsmanship only, and nothing else. Mihawk's defenders are refusing to acknowledge the fact that Mihawk being the best swordsman doesn't mean he's an overall stronger fighter.


Don't care, I'm not being rude anyway.
Mihawk can easily be stronger than Oden. The fact that he wields a black sword indicated that. Which in and of itself puts Mihawk a level above Oden who was comparable to a Yonko.

I don’t see how thinking that Mihawk = Yonko level is stupid.
 

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I don't see that this chapter has changed anything. We still don't know how Mihawk really stands compared to the Yonko.

This "pure swordman" bs promises to become annoying veeeery soon. What does it change ? Who said Shanks was only a swordsman? None of the Yonko are anyway. Neither are the admirals (including Fujitora: calling on meteors and manipulating gravity isn't swordplay, even if you use a sword for show).

So the possibility of both the Yonko AND the admirals being stronger than Mihawk still exists.

The argument about Shanks and Mihawk having dueled before doesn't mean shit either. For all we know, either could have become stronger than the other since.

And Mihawks statement about not wanting to fight a one armed man can't be taken at face value (sounds more like his idea of a friendly taunt to me). No proof of anything anywhere.

But I believe he's in the admirals/yonko tier. Maybe somewhere in between.
exactly, what I've been saying all along!

Mihawk can easily be stronger than Oden. The fact that he wields a black sword indicated that. Which in and of itself puts Mihawk a level above Oden who was comparable to a Yonko.

I don’t see how thinking that Mihawk = Yonko level is stupid.
Yes he could be, and he could be stronger than Shanks as well. Maybe stronger than Whitebeard. However, nothing indicates that he is, just that he'd likely beat them in a swordfight but if all bets were off, he'd lose.

Again, I'm confident that the main reason why most fans are saying Mihawk is an emperor level or stronger than Shanks is to hype up Zoro for when he wins, to make him look stronger than he probably would.
 

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Yes he could be, and he could be stronger than Shanks as well. Maybe stronger than Whitebeard. However, nothing indicates that he is, just that he'd likely beat them in a swordfight but if all bets were off, he'd lose.

Again, I'm confident that the main reason why most fans are saying Mihawk is an emperor level or stronger than Shanks is to hype up Zoro for when he wins, to make him look stronger than he probably would.
I can tell you that's not my case and, judging by Pea's comments, neither seems to be his. It is however hard to talk about Mihawk without mentioning Zoro because of how obviously tied they are.

It's simply a matter of "nothing indicates Shanks is anything else than a swordsman" being just as true as the opposite, and it being in my opinion more likely in any significant way (this is what happens with opinions; they tend to differ).

I also can't get my head around something along the lines of "if Shanks and Mihawk duel with a blade Mihawk will win, but if Shanks, a extremely skilled and powerful swordsman, kicks him midfight then he's not using swordsmanship anymore for some reason and him being stronger in the fight won't count towards being the stronger swordsman". Imagine Mihawk or Zoro being all "this doesn't count" and crying over something like that. Or what else are you suggesting Shanks has that Mihawk not other than possibly throwing a kick? CoC? Mihawk considers his CoA as part of his swordsmanship (which is why he taught it to Zoro), so if Mihawk doens't have CoC and Shanks imbued his weapon with it and defeated him, then Shanks would simply be the strongest swordsman (and become in turn Zoro's target).

That line of thought also rises other questions: did Mihawk only challenge swordsmen and made them swear to duel him using strictly only swordsmanship or gtfo? How was he even a rival of Shanks in the first place if we are under the assumption of Shanks not being actually swordsman?

So far, everything indicates that Shanks' a swordsman. If he turns out not to be, I'll accept it as it comes, but the assumption of Shanks not being a swordsman isn't convincing to me.

@fallou is right, though, which is why this discussion is supposed to be shelved: there's no way to know who is right and whether you find it stupid or not we all have our reasons to think what we think. In like 5 years we will probably know who was in the right.
 

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I can tell you that's not my case and, judging by Pea's comments, neither seems to be his. It is however hard to talk about Mihawk without mentioning Zoro because of how obviously tied they are.

It's simply a matter of "nothing indicates Shanks is anything else than a swordsman" being just as true as the opposite, and it being in my opinion more likely in any significant way (this is what happens with opinions; they tend to differ).

I also can't get my head around something along the lines of "if Shanks and Mihawk duel with a blade Mihawk will win, but if Shanks, a extremely skilled and powerful swordsman, kicks him midfight then he's not using swordsmanship anymore for some reason and him being stronger in the fight won't count towards being the stronger swordsman". Imagine Mihawk or Zoro being all "this doesn't count" and crying over something like that. Or what else are you suggesting Shanks has that Mihawk not other than possibly throwing a kick? CoC? Mihawk considers his CoA as part of his swordsmanship (which is why he taught it to Zoro), so if Mihawk doens't have CoC and Shanks imbued his weapon with it and defeated him, then Shanks would simply be the strongest swordsman (and become in turn Zoro's target).

That line of thought also rises other questions: did Mihawk only challenge swordsmen and made them swear to duel him using strictly only swordsmanship or gtfo? How was he even a rival of Shanks in the first place if we are under the assumption of Shanks not being actually swordsman?

So far, everything indicates that Shanks' a swordsman. If he turns out not to be, I'll accept it as it comes, but the assumption of Shanks not being a swordsman isn't convincing to me.

@fallou is right, though, which is why this discussion is supposed to be shelved: there's no way to know who is right and whether you find it stupid or not we all have our reasons to think what we think. In like 5 years we will probably know who was in the right.
I said most fans though, and you were the first exception I thought of. And I understand that, but my issue with the Mihawk hype is that people are insisting he's stronger than he is without clear evidence because of Zoro, in an attempt to make him look better.

I mean, it's not hard to understand. Zoro vs. Hachi was a swordfight. Zoro vs. Kaku wasn't, as Kaku didn't use swords for the most part?

Who thinks Shanks isn't a swordsman?? I'm 99% sure he is, given he has a sword and used it to protect Koby against a fruit power punch.

Or maybe we'll never find out who was in the "right."
 

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I said most fans though, and you were the first exception I thought of. And I understand that, but my issue with the Mihawk hype is that people are insisting he's stronger than he is without clear evidence because of Zoro, in an attempt to make him look better.

I mean, it's not hard to understand. Zoro vs. Hachi was a swordfight. Zoro vs. Kaku wasn't, as Kaku didn't use swords for the most part?

Who thinks Shanks isn't a swordsman?? I'm 99% sure he is, given he has a sword and used it to protect Koby against a fruit power punch.

Or maybe we'll never find out who was in the "right."
Please don't jinx us.
 

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I said most fans though, and you were the first exception I thought of. And I understand that, but my issue with the Mihawk hype is that people are insisting he's stronger than he is without clear evidence because of Zoro, in an attempt to make him look better.

I mean, it's not hard to understand. Zoro vs. Hachi was a swordfight. Zoro vs. Kaku wasn't, as Kaku didn't use swords for the most part?

Who thinks Shanks isn't a swordsman?? I'm 99% sure he is, given he has a sword and used it to protect Koby against a fruit power punch.

Or maybe we'll never find out who was in the "right."
I hope Mihawk is worth something.

If he's on the same level as the rest of the Shichibukai, by this point it would be very disappointing.

Zoro is already fighting King, who would be close to that level. And he already played with Kaido... if Mihawk pales in comparison to Kaido, that would make the progression really weird.
 

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I always found the whole nit picking about who is considered a swordsman funny. Clearly Mihawk is not a swordsman as he also carries a dagger and has used it in fights... 😆

Imagine telling a samurai he isn't a swordsman cause he decided to kick an opponent when the opportunity arose.

I think a swordsman would use anything and everything to win.
 
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