One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

goldb

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Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

  • For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
  • Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
  • Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
  • We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

  1. Shanks v Mihawk
  2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
  3. Zoro > Luffy
  4. Zoro v Sanji
  5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
  6. Mihawk's rank within the story
  7. Law having CoC currently.
  8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.
 
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I hope Mihawk is worth something.

If he's on the same level as the rest of the Shichibukai, by this point it would be very disappointing.

Zoro is already fighting King, who would be close to that level. And he already played with Kaido... if Mihawk pales in comparison to Kaido, that would make the progression really weird.
Exactly. This notion can’t just be ignored.

Every new enemy poses more challenge. Blackbeard’s second in command will be stronger that King etc etc.

I think Mihawk will remain unchallenged until after the SHs reach Laugh Tale and “fix” the world. In that case one can easily put him (Mihawk) on yonko level.
 

Aliocha

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I think that King's statement just confirms that someone who wields a sword like Kizaru, Big Mom and WhiteBeard doesn't means that him is swordman
 

Nie Li

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I think that King's statement just confirms that someone who wields a sword like Kizaru, Big Mom and WhiteBeard doesn't means that him is swordman
Kizaru and Whitebeard don't appear to be (Whitebeard's weapon isn't even a sword even if it's a supreme grade blade). In Big Mom's case, however, she's a swordswoman: she's using named sword styles and techniques and she's good at them.

Regardless of Mihawk being stronger or weaker than her, she's one.
 

Yonko Red Haired Shanks

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I don't want to encourage resparking this topic, but I'll answer this one post in a fully informative tone as someone who believes in Mihawk's strength.


I'll tell what you're missing, in my opinion. But I want to highlight that I don't want to enter the Mihawk vs Shanks discussion and I'm only making this post to inform of why I personally believe Mihawk can be that strong, so you, and anyone else who reads this, may hopefully understand why some of us believe in this, even if you don't change your mind.

- Mihawk's only narrative purpose to the story, the whole point of his character's existence: if Shanks is stronger than Mihawk, then Zoro won't achieve his dream until he defeats Shanks; the stronger swordsman. Mihawk's sole existence in the story is to serve the purpose of being the personification of Zoro's objective. Becoming the strongest swordsman in the world, by itself, is a very blurred concept. How do you have Zoro prove that? Defeating Shanks, Big Mom and everyone else by himself? Would that still really prove it? Perhaps Rayleigh is stronger, or that Gorosei with a blade, how do you give the readers the satisfaction of eventually seeing Zoro achieve his dream? Making a personification of his dream, someone who already is the strongest for him to defeat: Mihawk. If Mihawk is not that strong, he has no purpose, and actually immediately becomes a much, much worse character by failing at the only thing that gives the character meaning.

- Mihawk's vivre card.
People claim vivre cards can be wrong, but there's nothing to indicate that it is, and the example they pull to say vivre cards have been wrong about something important before was that in Shanks vivre card they accidentally messed up the order of two events in a timeline. That kind of error is very different to making up a whole paragraph on a character, and the vivre cards have introduced trustworthy canon information before, so I don't doubt it without good reason.
I only highlighted the paragraph where Shanks is mentioned, but all of the above paragraphs are equally interesting, like he becoming famous before Roger's execution and running out of worthy challengers. Related to that, I'll also say that we have no information on why Mihawk and Shanks stopped dueling. The whole one-armed thing is an assumption from what could just have been a friendly taunt.

In any case, this is just my interpretation, but that particular paragraph sounds like Shanks is still the greatest challenge in Mihawk's past to becoming the strongest and he wishes someone even stronger will appear in his future to give him a thrill.

And I'll make it a different point, but the paragraph about him sailing freely is another reason why I trust Mihawk.

- Mihawk's lack of crew.
What makes a Yonkou a Yonkou? First of all, they need to be pirates, secondly, they need to be incredibly powerful (though there are people who can give them a challenge other than other Yonkous), and finally they need to own BIG chunks of territories in the New World. All Yonkou's crews are big, some more than others, while Mihawk hasn't got a single crewmate, and this has many implications.
1: Even is Mihawk was stronger as a duelist in a 1vs1, he would still be weaker as a pirate. If Mihawk got into a fight with Kaido or Big Mom, he would get overwhelmed by their crews whether he wants it or not. No matter how much stronger some characters are compared to fodder, big numbers are always depicted as significant in the series, and it's not like all Yonkou Commanders are complete pushovers.
This makes Mihawk powerless when speaking about "piracy" regardless of his individual strength which is why he's not brought up when talking about the pirate's summit. He's barely a pirate, in reality: he has no jolly roger and no interest in the One Piece.

2: Without a single crewmate or even a ship, Marines considered him dangerous enough and feared enough to make him into a Shichibukai instead of just capturing him (like they will attempt now with their new superweapons). The other Shichibukai (except Law, who took a hardcore path to get his position) had pretty dangerous crews to back them up, like the fish-man pirates, the kuja tribe or the Donquixote Family.

3: As a Shichibukai, he's despised by most pirates, who consider them dogs of the government. However, Mihawk has been freely sailing all alone through the New World and Yonkou territories for the 20 years since Roger's death.

- Mihawk's bounty.
Shichibukai's bounties didn't mean much over the course of the series. All of them were supposed to have become much stronger over the years after having their bounties frozen as Shichibukai. However, the first Shichibukai to be introduced to the story is the only one who hasn't got his bounty revealed yet. This doesn't mean it's gonna be the highest we have ever seen, but it does seem like Oda is saving it real good. Now their bounties have been unfrozen, so it's gonna be very relevant again when it gets revealed.


And I think that is all, other than the most obvious point of all: Mihawk is above anything Zoro shows before they fight.
Many errors in what you say.

If you read the whole Whitebeard and Shanks conversation the duels were over two decades ago when Shanks was not a Yonko level and Mihawk didn't want to duel Shanks anymore because he lost an arm.

But Oda said that Shanks power did not diminish because he lost an arm so his power only grew since that incident and he has been a Yonko for 6 years. So Mihawk has never dueled with the Yonko Shanks.

Shanks was named at the same level as Whitebeard by Garp and Mihawk recognized his inferiority against Whitebeard.

And Shanks vivre card says that he was a rookie on Roger's ship, then he had duels with Mihawk and then evolved in the same precence as Whitebeard.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Mihawk can easily be stronger than Oden. The fact that he wields a black sword indicated that. Which in and of itself puts Mihawk a level above Oden who was comparable to a Yonko.

I don’t see how thinking that Mihawk = Yonko level is stupid.
Stop.
Oden was defeated by a single no named club swing from wounded Base Kaido. That Kaido was weaker than his current version.
 

Nie Li

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Many errors in what you say.

If you read the whole Whitebeard and Shanks conversation the duels were over two decades ago when Shanks was not a Yonko level and Mihawk didn't want to duel Shanks anymore because he lost an arm.

But Oda said that Shanks power did not diminish because he lost an arm so his power only grew since that incident and he has been a Yonko for 6 years. So Mihawk has never dueled with the Yonko Shanks.

Shanks was named at the same level as Whitebeard by Garp and Mihawk recognized his inferiority against Whitebeard.

And Shanks vivre card says that he was a rookie on Roger's ship, then he had duels with Mihawk and then evolved in the same precence as Whitebeard.
None of the (two) points you've brought up create any "errors" in what I said. In fact, what you posted now is unrelated to the most important points in my post. You just answered with "why you believe Shanks is stronger" without directly addressing "why I believe Mihawk is stronger". I could do the same and answer your post by reposting my previous post again and create and endless loop of "my beliefs are better than yours".

I get it, you want Shanks to be stronger, that's fine. As I said in my post, I wasn't trying to change anyone's mind.

However, let me tell you something: if you're using the vivre card as a point then you have to acknowledge that Mihawk's vivre card directly suggests Mihawk is at least as strong as Shanks.
 

Pirate Queen

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Exactly. This notion can’t just be ignored.

Every new enemy poses more challenge. Blackbeard’s second in command will be stronger that King etc etc.

I think Mihawk will remain unchallenged until after the SHs reach Laugh Tale and “fix” the world. In that case one can easily put him (Mihawk) on yonko level.
So you think Mihawk first real challenge is going to end with a loss to Zoro?

So he's goi g to go through an entire manga of hype only to lose to his first real challenger?

I like it lol
 

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The thing about Mihawk and Zolo is that, Zolo is not really gunning for Mihawk but rather the title. Say someone else either new or old came around and defeated Mihawk in a sword duel then that person takes the title, right? So now Mihawk is not Zolo's target but the new person who won the WSM title. Zolo wants that title but that title is not tied to only one person. So there goes the thought of Zolo HAS to defeat Mihawk at the end therefore Mihawk HAS to be stronger than Shanks. If Shanks fought Mihawk and beat him then Shanks becomes the WSM and now Zolo will focus on defeating Shanks.
Also, Shanks has not been shown to refuse a duel with Mihawk yet, we've seen twice that Mihawk has refused to battle with Shanks, not saying because he is afraid of Shanks but take that fact into account.
Another thing, we do not know when Zolo will fight Mihawk, everybody assumes it's going to be at the end because there CANNOT be a chance of an entirely different character who is a swordsman and stronger (sarcasm). Zolo can challenge Mihawk right after Wano, win get the title and still have to fight another swordsman.

People are still refusing to acknowledge the fact that King said (Oda's words not the vivre card or title) that just because he has a sword does not mean he is a swordsman. Stop being ignorant about wielding a sword does not make you a swordsman. Therefore, Shanks, WB, Big Mom , Fujitora and etc. Are not pure swordsman like Mihawk may be. Thus his title holds no weight over them.
 

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- Mihawk's bounty.
Shichibukai's bounties didn't mean much over the course of the series. All of them were supposed to have become much stronger over the years after having their bounties frozen as Shichibukai. However, the first Shichibukai to be introduced to the story is the only one who hasn't got his bounty revealed yet. This doesn't mean it's gonna be the highest we have ever seen, but it does seem like Oda is saving it real good. Now their bounties have been unfrozen, so it's gonna be very relevant again when it gets revealed.
Don't take bounties too seriously.

Regarding the other Shichibukai, we know their former bounties. But that doesn't reflect their true strength.

Also I doubt the author had an idea of how high bounties would get. He probably didn't thought of Shanks having a bounty of billions back in chapter 1.

If Mihawk's former bounty was releaved during his first appearance, it would have been less than 80 million. If it was revealed when he showed up in Mary Geoise, it would be 200 or 300 million. After the timeskip, the new Shichibukai now have former bounties of over 400 million.
 
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So you think Mihawk first real challenge is going to end with a loss to Zoro?

So he's going to go through an entire manga of hype only to lose to his first real challenger?
Yes.
 

Fourofjacks

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I think that King's statement just confirms that someone who wields a sword like Kizaru, Big Mom and WhiteBeard doesn't means that him is swordman
My take on kings statement is that you do whatever it takes to win a fight, even if you are a swordsman / wield a sword. Zoro says similarly he will bite if he needs to.

Mihawk uses a dagger. Zoro holds a sword in his mouth. If we are going to nitpick, are you considered a swordsman if you hold a sword in your mouth? Not to mention his current strongest attack asura seems to be some outworldly spirit / demonic presence.

If other characters are not considered swordsmen cause they use non sword techniques, this rules out both mihawk and zoro as swordmen too.
 

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My take on kings statement is that you do whatever it takes to win a fight, even if you are a swordsman / wield a sword. Zoro says similarly he will bite if he needs to.

Mihawk uses a dagger. Zoro holds a sword in his mouth. If we are going to nitpick, are you considered a swordsman if you hold a sword in your mouth? Not to mention his current strongest attack asura seems to be some outworldly spirit / demonic presence.

If other characters are not considered swordsmen cause they use non sword techniques, this rules out both mihawk and zoro as swordmen too.
That's where you are wrong. We know Mihawk and Zolo are swordsman, they use swordsmanship/styles. Oden was a samurai (Wano type of swordsman). A swordsman heavily relies on their swordsmanship abilities, not on kicks or punches or different techniques to win a fight. It's been rare that we've seen Zolo use a regular non sword attack especially to defeat an opponent. Sanji can wield kitchen knives but that doesnt make him a swordsman.

Zolo's 3 sword style is odd compared to the rest of OP, so yeah a sword in mouth is odd but still makes him a unique swordsman.
Say at the start of Wano when Luffy and Zolo fought some fodder and Hawkins, Luffy wielded for a moment a famous sword, but look how he handled that sword. Even Zolo proclaimed that Luffy is not using the sword correctly, because obviously Luffy doesnt know how to nor is a swordsman. So does anybody want to make that claim that Luffy is/was a swordsman?
 

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Please don't jinx us.
Pfft, I will, But also it's perfect because it's so ambiguous. Plus, I'm interested to see if people's rationale will be what I think it will be if Luffy's the one who beats Shanks, and Zoro beats Mihawk, without knowing who of the two was stronger.

I hope Mihawk is worth something.

If he's on the same level as the rest of the Shichibukai, by this point it would be very disappointing.

Zoro is already fighting King, who would be close to that level. And he already played with Kaido... if Mihawk pales in comparison to Kaido, that would make the progression really weird.
I think he's on a higher level than Doflamingo, a much higher level. Probably the top two, along with Kuma.

It wouldn't, because Zoro never beat Kaidou, never had a conclusive battle with him. Kaidou wasn't going sword-to-sword with Zoro, he was using different powers and had Big MOm to help him, just as Zoro had Law, Kidd, and Luffy to help him.
 

Lord Traffy Law

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I was re reading marineford
And I’m 99% sure dragon also has conquerors haki , it’s heavily implied at least
Garp likely too
Also a small chance don sai (chinjao) grandson also has it
 

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That's where you are wrong. We know Mihawk and Zolo are swordsman, they use swordsmanship/styles. Oden was a samurai (Wano type of swordsman). A swordsman heavily relies on their swordsmanship abilities, not on kicks or punches or different techniques to win a fight. It's been rare that we've seen Zolo use a regular non sword attack especially to defeat an opponent. Sanji can wield kitchen knives but that doesnt make him a swordsman.

Zolo's 3 sword style is odd compared to the rest of OP, so yeah a sword in mouth is odd but still makes him a unique swordsman.
Say at the start of Wano when Luffy and Zolo fought some fodder and Hawkins, Luffy wielded for a moment a famous sword, but look how he handled that sword. Even Zolo proclaimed that Luffy is not using the sword correctly, because obviously Luffy doesnt know how to nor is a swordsman. So does anybody want to make that claim that Luffy is/was a swordsman?
Top tier swordsmen are nothing without CoO, CoA, other form of Haki, devil fruit or some other ability. These aren't exactly swordsmen techniques.

Zoro's most powerful asura attack to summon demonic copies to triple his power presumably he could / others could without a sword. Haki is not a swordsman ability - when was the last time Zoro fought seriously without haki?

Zoro is a swordsman cause he carries sword(s) as main weapon. Same as others. A knife isn't a sword so sanji's out - sorry. Luffy isn't usually a swordsman, but nothing wrong calling him a terrible swordsman in the short time he tries to be one.

On an unrelated note (but one I found interesting) samurai in real life usually carried swords as backup weapons - not as their preferred weapon of choice. Would've never guessed from all the sword wielding samurai in manga, anime and movies :)
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

So you think Mihawk first real challenge is going to end with a loss to Zoro?

So he's goi g to go through an entire manga of hype only to lose to his first real challenger?

I like it lol
Oda could throw a curve ball and... end the story without Zoro and mihawk fighting.

Maybe mihawk loses an arm, Zoro doesn't want to duel him anymore and just takes the mantle of WSS...
 

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Top tier swordsmen are nothing without CoO, CoA, other form of Haki, devil fruit or some other ability. These aren't exactly swordsmen techniques.

Zoro's most powerful asura attack to summon demonic copies to triple his power presumably he could / others could without a sword. Haki is not a swordsman ability - when was the last time Zoro fought seriously without haki?

Zoro is a swordsman cause he carries sword(s) as main weapon. Same as others. A knife isn't a sword so sanji's out - sorry. Luffy isn't usually a swordsman, but nothing wrong calling him a terrible swordsman in the short time he tries to be one.

On an unrelated note (but one I found interesting) samurai in real life usually carried swords as backup weapons - not as their preferred weapon of choice. Would've never guessed from all the sword wielding samurai in manga, anime and movies :)
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---



Oda could throw a curve ball and... end the story without Zoro and mihawk fighting.

Maybe mihawk loses an arm, Zoro doesn't want to duel him anymore and just takes the mantle of WSS...
DF ability and haki use are in conjunction with their swordsmanship. Their swordsmanship is what defines them. Haki only augments there power/sword. Are Aokiji and Kizaru swordsmans? They can create blade like weapons with their DFs and use them as swords.
Luffy is NOT a swordsman. Luffy was NOT a swordsman. He had a sword on hand but did not how to wield it or use it in a swordsmanship technique. Luffy did not try to be an actual swordsman.

I believe the reason why Mihawk gave up fighting/dueling Shanks AFTER Shanks lost an arm (take in account Oda said that Shanks did not lose any power after losing an arm) is because Shanks' swordsmanship skills lacked with only using one arm and Mihawk saw that as a handicapped and lost interest in his swordsmanship skills.
There is a difference between swordsmanship and physical power.
 

Urek Mazino

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I personally believe that Mihawk is one of the strongest people in the world. That is, of course, just my opinion and I don't have any proof about that and could be wrong.

But, like some ppl already said, we can be pretty sure about one thing. If Zoro is going to fight Mihawk then he will be stronger than anyone Zoro has fought up to that point, doesn't matter if they are a swordsman or not. It would simply make no sense that Mihawk is weaker than King whom Zoro is fighting now.
 

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I believe the reason why Mihawk gave up fighting/dueling Shanks AFTER Shanks lost an arm (take in account Oda said that Shanks did not lose any power after losing an arm) is because Shanks' swordsmanship skills lacked with only using one arm and Mihawk saw that as a handicapped and lost interest in his swordsmanship skills.
There is a difference between swordsmanship and physical power.
Now that I think about it... Mihawk refuses to fight Shanks because the latter lost an arm, yet he still waits for Zoro who lost an eye. Well, probably after seeing Fujitora the swordsman think that losing an eye isn't as bad as losing an arm (if you have CoO, that is).
 

albertwv

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All in all, I am kinda upset that in a land of samurai, Zolo won't get a duel with an actual samurai/swordsman. I know his fights were really never against Swordsman, but this is Wano, Zolo's opponent should have been a samurai.
Oda really dropped the ball in the NW regarding SH crew opponents
 

Fourofjacks

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DF ability and haki use are in conjunction with their swordsmanship. Their swordsmanship is what defines them. Haki only augments there power/sword. Are Aokiji and Kizaru swordsmans? They can create blade like weapons with their DFs and use them as swords.
Luffy is NOT a swordsman. Luffy was NOT a swordsman. He had a sword on hand but did not how to wield it or use it in a swordsmanship technique. Luffy did not try to be an actual swordsman.

I believe the reason why Mihawk gave up fighting/dueling Shanks AFTER Shanks lost an arm (take in account Oda said that Shanks did not lose any power after losing an arm) is because Shanks' swordsmanship skills lacked with only using one arm and Mihawk saw that as a handicapped and lost interest in his swordsmanship skills.
There is a difference between swordsmanship and physical power.
Aokiji and kizaru could be swordsman if they decide to make swords using their df, and wield it as their weapon. Why not? Because the sword isn't made of steel? Or do they need to learn 'swordmanship skills'?

Let's try this example to flesh out your view. Kaido switches his club and uses a sword with no training. He just swings the sword around same as he swung his club without any desire to learn how to use a sword with proper technique. Is he a swordsman under your definition?

Let's say he kills millions over 10 years only by swinging a sword around like a club. So no punching, kicking, dragon abilities etc. Only kills using a sword. It's pretty clear in my mind he would still beat just about everyone in the one piece world doing this. Is he considered a swordsman under your definition now?

If he still isn't a swordsman, what does he have to do to be considered a swordsman? Train 1 day under mihawk? Month? year? Use a named attack with sword? 5 named attacks? More?

Or is there simple no way kaido could ever be considered a swordsman no matter what he did, since he is defined as the world's strongest creature / hundred beasts kaido.
 

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All in all, I am kinda upset that in a land of samurai, Zolo won't get a duel with an actual samurai/swordsman. I know his fights were really never against Swordsman, but this is Wano, Zolo's opponent should have been a samurai.
Oda really dropped the ball in the NW regarding SH crew opponents
Yep definitely dropped the ball on this one. Originally, I thought Kyoshiro would end up being Zoro's opponent since he seemed to be strong, and was on the enemies side. When the opponent started seeming like King, I was like well he has a sword, maybe he'll be a swordsman but now that we've seen his sword is a comb (???) I've all but given up that Zoro will get a swordsman vs swordsman fight before Mihawk.
 
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