One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[LaGOAT]

The problem is people just don’t accept that luffy>zoro>sanji if I have to scale this out of 10

luffy is a 10
Zoro is a 9
Sanji is a 8

luffy vs zoro luffy wins extreme diff
Luffy vs sanji luffy wins high diff
Zoro vs sanji zoro wins extreme diff

it will always be like this till the end of one piece and I’m being as objective as possible as a zoro fanboy

 

[shailks]

Though Sanji had got much more focus on his character, compared to Zoro who literally is the same character since Fishman arc.

Yeah and not in a good way. It has made Sanji look bad compared to pre timeskip. The history and tough childhood was ok, it added some sympathy but didn't explain much (his extreme pervertedness for example). I kind of understand why some readers now think that whole arc was mostly a waste. His new power (toughness) could have been explained in other ways.

With Zoro, I suppose we will find about his samurai origins that's been hinted. In terms of character, he is now taking the role of 1st mate more clearly. He is serious and more aware of the dangers of new world which complements his captain. He even reprimanded Luffy to take his fights more seriously in punk hazard, for instance. I am also hoping to get some explanation for his topographical disorientation eventually.

 

[LaGOAT]

Also I want to point out that jimbei is an 8 too I think he is equal to sanji for now jinbei has been YC2 lvl for awhile

 

[M3J]

If Sanji was inferior to Vergo, then can we say Mihawk was inferior to Vista? Because like, neither fight finished, and all of the combatants could still move, run, and fight without fatigue or pain.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

I think sanji against vergo is overblown cause he did blitz twice and drAw blood twice

he lost clearly against doflamingo , that was bad but doffy did say he was strong

 

[grey matter]

I have a question, we know that supreme grade swords are much stronger than great grade swords.

That means Ace is obviously a bigger power-up than Enma,

How come no one ever says that Roger is only as strong as he is because of his sword ? If Enma is such a big-power then Ace must be a truly massive power-up and Roger with a regular sword would probably be several tiers weaker right ?

I think great swords are a compensation for Devil Fruit

And, it's possible to own great swords/weapons only if you're strong yourselves. Great swords give direction to the owner's powers and haki, but ultimately, it only uses up the owner's own Haki.
Great swords take in so much haki and willpower, that some pleb wielding it will just die fast. We saw this with Kitetsu, the shopkeeper from Louge town said it's cursed and will end in death of the owner - and we saw hints of it when Kitetsu was moving almost like it had a mind of it's own. And then Zoro tamed it, because he was a strong enough wielder.
Enma again, would kill any user who wields it if they are weak, this time by sucking their haki and lifeforce.


Will Roger have a significant nerf if you take away Ace? Yes. But that's like taking away a DF from Luffy/Admirals/Kaido/BM etc. They will still be strong without them, yes, but won't quite be as strong.

One thing i don't agree with some ppl is about Enma.

It is just a sword that forcibly draws your haki and allows you to release more at once than you would be able to on your own. So yeah, it does make your attacks stronger because you use more haki but it still uses your own haki. You can't use more than what you have. Strength of the attack still depends on the user, it does not magically allow someone to cut a yonko.

Agree and disagree,

Enma is sharper, and can handle more haki than other swords.

There is probably a limit to how much haki a sword can draw, relative to max potential of a swordsman. This limit should be higher for better weapons.

But ultimately, the sword is as strong only because the user has the capacity to match it's potential

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 12, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 12, 2021 ---

If Sanji was inferior to Vergo, then can we say Mihawk was inferior to Vista? Because like, neither fight finished, and all of the combatants could still move, run, and fight without fatigue or pain.

Not really, cause it never seemed like Mihawk was at a disadvantage. While Vergo broke Sanji's leg

Also, Mihawk was casual the entire arc, and is likely Yonko tier, and bare minimum admiral tier.

The problem is people just don’t accept that luffy>zoro>sanji if I have to scale this out of 10

luffy is a 10
Zoro is a 9
Sanji is a 8

luffy vs zoro luffy wins extreme diff
Luffy vs sanji luffy wins high diff
Zoro vs sanji zoro wins extreme diff

it will always be like this till the end of one piece and I’m being as objective as possible as a zoro fanboy

Yea, kinda agree. Just that I think the gap is larger between each.

Luffy mid-high diff Zoro
Zoro mid-high diff Sanji

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 12, 2021 ---

Also I want to point out that jimbei is an 8 too I think he is equal to sanji for now jinbei has been YC2 lvl for awhile

Meh, Jinbe is YC3 tier if we're being generous

He was Ace's equal when Ace was a rookie and didn't even pass one year into his career. While Jinbe was in his early 40s and likely peaked.
Ace became a YC2 tier only after 2-3 years on WB's ship

 

[Fallou]

I think great swords are a compensation for Devil Fruit

And, it's possible to own great swords/weapons only if you're strong yourselves. Great swords give direction to the owner's powers and haki, but ultimately, it only uses up the owner's own Haki.
Great swords take in so much haki and willpower, that some pleb wielding it will just die fast. We saw this with Kitetsu, the shopkeeper from Louge town said it's cursed and will end in death of the owner - and we saw hints of it when Kitetsu was moving almost like it had a mind of it's own. And then Zoro tamed it, because he was a strong enough wielder.
Enma again, would kill any user who wields it if they are weak, this time by sucking their haki and lifeforce.


Will Roger have a significant nerf if you take away Ace? Yes. But that's like taking away a DF from Luffy/Admirals/Kaido/BM etc. They will still be strong without them, yes, but won't quite be as strong.


Agree and disagree,

Enma is sharper, and can handle more haki than other swords.

There is probably a limit to how much haki a sword can draw, relative to max potential of a swordsman. This limit should be higher for better weapons.

But ultimately, the sword is as strong only because the user has the capacity to match it's potential

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 12, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 12, 2021 ---

Not really, cause it never seemed like Mihawk was at a disadvantage. While Vergo broke Sanji's leg

Also, Mihawk was casual the entire arc, and is likely Yonko tier, and bare minimum admiral tier.



Yea, kinda agree. Just that I think the gap is larger between each.

Luffy mid-high diff Zoro
Zoro mid-high diff Sanji

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 12, 2021 ---

Meh, Jinbe is YC3 tier if we're being generous

He was Ace's equal when Ace was a rookie and didn't even pass one year into his career. While Jinbe was in his early 40s and likely peaked.
Ace became a YC2 tier only after 2-3 years on WB's ship

Hmmm
Jinbei's real strength is hard to gauge
He did totally blastout BM out of the ship, and made short work of that TR

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

I think great swords are a compensation for Devil Fruit

And, it's possible to own great swords/weapons only if you're strong yourselves. Great swords give direction to the owner's powers and haki, but ultimately, it only uses up the owner's own Haki.
Great swords take in so much haki and willpower, that some pleb wielding it will just die fast. We saw this with Kitetsu, the shopkeeper from Louge town said it's cursed and will end in death of the owner - and we saw hints of it when Kitetsu was moving almost like it had a mind of it's own. And then Zoro tamed it, because he was a strong enough wielder.
Enma again, would kill any user who wields it if they are weak, this time by sucking their haki and lifeforce.


Will Roger have a significant nerf if you take away Ace? Yes. But that's like taking away a DF from Luffy/Admirals/Kaido/BM etc. They will still be strong without them, yes, but won't quite be as strong.


Agree and disagree,

Enma is sharper, and can handle more haki than other swords.

There is probably a limit to how much haki a sword can draw, relative to max potential of a swordsman. This limit should be higher for better weapons.

But ultimately, the sword is as strong only because the user has the capacity to match it's potential

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 12, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 12, 2021 ---

Not really, cause it never seemed like Mihawk was at a disadvantage. While Vergo broke Sanji's leg

Also, Mihawk was casual the entire arc, and is likely Yonko tier, and bare minimum admiral tier.



Yea, kinda agree. Just that I think the gap is larger between each.

Luffy mid-high diff Zoro
Zoro mid-high diff Sanji

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 12, 2021 ---

Meh, Jinbe is YC3 tier if we're being generous

He was Ace's equal when Ace was a rookie and didn't even pass one year into his career. While Jinbe was in his early 40s and likely peaked.
Ace became a YC2 tier only after 2-3 years on WB's ship

Versus ace it was more of a matchup thing
Jinbei is more of a YC2 tier dude imo , I think that’s why his entry to his crew got delayed

 

[Crimson Ice]

The problem is people just don’t accept that luffy>zoro>sanji if I have to scale this out of 10

luffy is a 10
Zoro is a 9
Sanji is a 8

luffy vs zoro luffy wins extreme diff
Luffy vs sanji luffy wins high diff
Zoro vs sanji zoro wins extreme diff

it will always be like this till the end of one piece and I’m being as objective as possible as a zoro fanboy

Eeeh, I would agree with this sentiment in the pre-TS, not now though. Luffy at this point is a full-fledged top tier, that gap between him and Zoro and Sanji is a bit bigger.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I don't think ANYONE is trying to argue that Sanji is stronger than Zoro

 

[grey matter]

@Lord Traffy Law @fallou
You could be right.

Maybe I am reading too much into it and overthinking, bringing relative growth (with Ace at 17 year old, while Jinbe 41 and likely peaked) into this.

It is possible that all Oda wanted to show was just that Jinbe is generally Ace tier, and hence could be YC2 tier. Idk

Still, Ace cancelled out an attack from Aokiji, with lower level marines claiming they're no match for him if he's strong enough to match an attack from Aokiji.
I don't know if Jinbe can do this

Not really sure here.
What makes you think he's YC2 tier though? Mid diffing Who's Who is something I can imagine Jack doing as well.

 

[AmitDS]

Just as Zoro fans try to argue Zoro is Luffy level or close, you're doing the same for Sanji. Sanji isn't as close to Zoro as you are trying to make it out to be.
Sanji isn't on Zoro level, even though sometimes we have incidents which give the appearance that he is. Similar to there being incidents where Zoro is alongside Luffy, where also we know who the clear superior is
Point being, we have seen instances where Sanji and Zoro have appeared alongside each other (portrayal), and we have seen instances where Zoro and Luffy have apeared alongside each other.
But I can't remember any instance where Sanji and Luffy have been portrayed alongside each other. There is a clear and obvious hierarchy within the monster trio

Of course Sanji isn't far below Zoro to the level where Zoro stomps or low diffs.
It would be more of a mid-high diff.

Lol really? You can't remember? Not even most recently ?

Meanwhile peep the most recent example for Zoro and Sanji lol

Spoiler

The hierarchy for all intents and purposes is Luffy is the captain and Zoro and Sanji are his wings. Even if a gap exists between Sanji and Zoro, it would be so small that Zoro would be in a high/extreme-diff fight for the win. He's not a tier above Sanji as fans would like to think. Luffy, on the other hand, has far surpassed Zoro which is the part that is up for debate apparently. The thing is, when Sanji and Zoro appear together, they're a duo, whereas when Luffy and Zoro appear together, for eg. on the rooftop, it's clear that it's a Superior-Subordinate relationship. This is even mirrored with Killer and Kid, as his subordinate on the rooftop (funny enough, Killer is portrayed more of a "partner" to Kid tho tbh lol).

If we are looking at Oda's portrayal and intent, there is a non insignificant gap between the no 2s and no 3s of each of the top crews. Not large enough to the point where no2 stomps, but large enough to the point we all know who is the clear superior is.
- Katakuri was held on a completely different regard by BMP than anyone else, including Smoothie. Nobody else in the crew could even reach close to the respect that Kakaturi commanded from BMP
- Marco and Jozu/Vista (not sure who is the real YC3 here, Oda had stated that WB pirates didn't have a real hierarchy for division commanders) have a sizable gap. Marco became WBP captain after WB died, and was the only commander to be directly compared to admirals in the data book. Not Jozu or Vista
- Rayleigh is again a clear superior to Copper.
- We will see where King and Queen are by the end of the arc, but King has been looking fairly more impressive so far.

Well first, it's been established that the BMP and the BP are different in terms of their crew dynamic. While the BMP do hold Katakuri to a higher regard than Smoothie, this dynamic is not present within the BP; King and Queen have always been portrayed as a dueling duo (despite King's bounty being marginally higher). While it remains to be seen that King is clearly superior to Queen, as of now, as I've said in an earlier post, this is eerily similar to the entire Jabra and Kaku thing in Enies Lobby.

Luffy is the inheritor of Shanks' will, who inherited Roger's will. If we want to try and extrapolate portrayal, it's Roger/Rayleigh and Shanks/Beckman relative levels that we have to look forward to.
Rayleigh is much closer to Roger than a typical 2nd in command is to their captain. We can assume the same for Shanks/Beckman, based on inheritance of will and what's generally stated about Ben Beckman.
Point being, Zoro will always be relative to Luffy. Luffy will be the clear superior, but Zoro will always be at a level where he can give Luffy a mid-high diff. Zoro is more relative to his captain than other 2nd in commands to their captains (apart from Roger and Shanks, who share their wills with Luffy)

I said this already in an earlier post, but I'll paraphrase it here: Zoro hasn't been relative to Luffy since pre-ts and that's being generous.

Anyway, while there may not be huge gaps between for eg. YC1s and YC2s, the gap between the Yonkou/Captain themselves and YCs is huge. People have struggled with this idea though, hence the rise of "King is secretly Yonkou level" posts since he was cemented as Zoro's opponent.
The whole "Luffy and Zoro are equals/partners" nonsense was born from Zoro fans always wanting more and never being satisfied that their fave is a subordinate (not an insult). People also try to use Rayleigh and Roger as some sort of parallel because Roger called Rayleigh his "partner" but even in this duo, it's not about power. It's fans' desire for Rayleigh to be some sort of Roger-equivalent that perpetuates this headcannon (this too is a non-parallel that is forced to give credence to the whole "Zoro = Luffy" thing).
And again we have to clarify this Shanks and Beckman thing. In the vivre card, it was stated that his "existence" is akin to Shank's. The translator said that we do not know if this refers to power, authority or something else. And even if it were to reference their power level, Shanks-Beckman would be the exception, not the norm of these Captains and VCs.

I don't know how much clearer Oda can even make it so that this idea that "Zoro is close to or equal to Luffy" is finally put to rest. He had a magic Kaido-slicing sword, went all-out, as per his own words with Ashura, and superficially scarred Kaido. Meanwhile Luffy is conquerors' clashing with him... lol
What's funny to me is that Zoro himself said that if his Ashura didn't work he'll show himself out cuz he has no business there, but fans I guess think he was lying?

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 12, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 12, 2021 ---

Idt people realize that Zoro being closer to Sanji than Luffy doesn't mean that Sanji >Zoro.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Lol really? You can't remember? Not even recently?

Zoro being closer to Sanji than Luffy doesn't mean that Sanji >Zoro.

I totally agree, they are always shown in the same manner and represented as equal halves to Luffy's power

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 12, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 12, 2021 ---

As if Luffy wasn’t handed a super OP power-up in chapter 1 that is the sole reason behind ALL of his success and ALL of his feats, that was so OP a senior CP0 member like WsW was sacked and made a criminal for losing it.

(Not to mention being trained by the Pirate King level hero of the marines since birth and being born to a line of legendary top tiers whose relationship with him has saved his skin more than once… oh and being best buds with one of the 4 Yonko who saved his ass at Marineford… and getting the legendary hat of the pirate king, trained in Haki by the Dark King of the Pirates, maybe being the son of 1 of the 7 warlords if the trans crocodile theory is true, am I missing anything ?)

But sure, Zoro’s a cheat because he got a cool sword.

You compared a list of hard core training regimes Luffy went though (blood, sweat, tears) and years of enduring the toughest conditions to get to where he is and you think it's comparable to Zoro being handed a Yonko cutting weapon

 

[grey matter]

I totally agree, they are always shown in the same manner and represented as equal halves to Luffy's power

No.

This is the issue I have with all the talk here.

Nobody (except I guess LadyVados) is arguing Zoro is Luffy's equal. My position for eg, on this, has always been Luffy mid-high diff Zoro

It seems people are seriously having trouble with accepting there is non insignificant gap between Zoro and Sanji, or even that Zoro has always been > Sanji. Don't really understand why

I said this already in an earlier post, but I'll paraphrase it here: Zoro hasn't been relative to Luffy since pre-ts and that's being generous.

Anyway, while there may not be huge gaps between for eg. YC1s and YC2s, the gap between the Yonkou/Captain themselves and YCs is huge. People have struggled with this idea though, hence the rise of "King is secretly Yonkou level" posts since he was cemented as Zoro's opponent.
The whole "Luffy and Zoro are equals/partners" nonsense was born from Zoro fans always wanting more and never being satisfied that their fave is a subordinate (not an insult). People also try to use Rayleigh and Roger as some sort of parallel because Roger called Rayleigh his "partner" but even in this duo, it's not about power. It's fans' desire for Rayleigh to be some sort of Roger-equivalent that perpetuates this headcannon (this too is a non-parallel that is forced to give credence to the whole "Zoro = Luffy" thing).
And again we have to clarify this Shanks and Beckman thing. In the vivre card, it was stated that his "existence" is akin to Shank's. The translator said that we do not know if this refers to power, authority or something else. And even if it were to reference their power level, Shanks-Beckman would be the exception, not the norm of these Captains and VCs.

I don't know how much clearer Oda can even make it so that this idea that "Zoro is close to or equal to Luffy" is finally put to rest. He had a magic Kaido-slicing sword, went all-out, as per his own words with Ashura, and superficially scarred Kaido. Meanwhile Luffy is conquerors' clashing with him... lol
What's funny to me is that Zoro himself said that if his Ashura didn't work he'll show himself out cuz he has no business there, but fans I guess think he was lying?

The issue is with you comparing Zoro to a typical YC1 of a Yonko (or a typical YC2 to Sanji for what it's worth).

Zoro to Luffy will be Rayleigh to Roger, or Oden to Whiebeard

Rayleigh is a solid admiral tier when he's old and rusty. The dude was likely Oden level in his peak, which is borderline Yonko tier, if not outright on the lower ends of Yonko level.
While the typical YC1, like King and Katakuri, aren't even admiral tier in their peak

Kaido would low diff King. While Roger would probably mid-high diff Rayleigh.
Luffy won't low diff Zoro, hell I don't think he would low diff even Sanji.

And lastly, I've never claimed Zoro is Luffy level. He never was and never will be. I only claim he will give Luffy a mid-high diff.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 12, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 12, 2021 ---

Lol really? You can't remember? Not even recently?

Can you read dude?

I said Sanji and LUFFY.

Not Sanji and Zoro, for which there are a plethora of examples obviously

 

[AmitDS]

I totally agree, they are always shown in the same manner and represented as equal halves to Luffy's power

Exactly people just think that Zoro being the SH's version of a VC means he's way ahead of Sanji. And honestly the Rayleigh thing doesn't even work for Zoro because the men actually rivalling Roger power wise were WB, Garp and Shiki.

No.

This is the issue I have with all the talk here.

Nobody (except I guess LadyVados) is arguing Zoro is Luffy's equal. My position for eg, on this, has always been Luffy mid-high diff Zoro

It seems people are seriously having trouble with accepting there is non insignificant gap between Zoro and Sanji, or even that Zoro has always been > Sanji. Don't really understand why



The issue is with you comparing Zoro to a typical YC1 of a Yonko (or a typical YC2 to Sanji for what it's worth).

Zoro to Luffy will be Rayleigh to Roger, or Oden to Whiebeard

Rayleigh is a solid admiral tier when he's old and rusty. The dude was likely Oden level in his peak, which is borderline Yonko tier, if not outright on the lower ends of Yonko level.
While the typical YC1, like King and Katakuri, aren't even admiral tier in their peak

Kaido would low diff King. While Roger would probably mid-high diff Rayleigh.
Luffy won't low diff Zoro, hell I don't think he would low diff even Sanji.

And lastly, I've never claimed Zoro is Luffy level. He never was and never will be. I only claim he will give Luffy a mid-high diff.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 12, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 12, 2021 ---

Can you read dude?

I said Sanji and LUFFY.

Not Sanji and Zoro, for which there are a plethora of examples obviously

Mad?

Well might want to check my edit. Love how you ignored the example of Sanji with Zoro actually fighting opponents on the same level though, which is the topic of discussion in the power level thread.

Just saying, Sanji was teaming up with Luffy to fight an emperor before it was mainstream. Dies*

Lol no one cares about you guys' powerscaling. Mid high low diff whatever. Fact is the author has been clear. Zoro and Sanji are close in power because their main opponents are always close in power, regardless of Zoro coming out on top.

The same people who crave feats are suddenly rejecting them. Unless you guys can prove that King is significantly stronger than Queen, as it stands, this is the case. Just saying, some of us have said that Zoro would be healed and him and Sanji would struggle to beat King and Queen while Luffy fought Kaido and look what happened? Meanwhile the people who thought Zoro was too strong to fight King while Sanji would have to fight Queen... where are they now? Coping. Lol!

Zoro being with his captain has nothing to do with powerscaling and how he relates to Sanji especially when he still ends up struggling with opponents comparable to Sanji's. Yeah yeah we get the point. Luffy robbed poor alpha male wet dream Zoro of his role of captain and the MC and now he's stuck with the lame simp who has feelings. Same crap has been happening for decades and guess what? Oda always ends up putting Zoro in his place i.e. near Sanji and not significantly above. You'd think people would have learned after Kaku and Jabra and especially now with King and Queen yet here we are.

People have been promising Luffy > Zoro >>>>>>>>>>> Sanji for decades and it's still not happened after 1000+ chapters.

The fact is even Rayleigh wasn't proven closer to Roger than he was to Scopper or Oden so this reliance on Rayleigh is hilarious.
Rayleigh doesn't save Zoro from being close to Sanji. Neither does Beckmann who the jury is still out on powerwise in relation to Shanks.

 

[HereNThere]

Let's ease up on some of the more confrontational responses. I can't tell if anyone is truly agitated, but I don't want things getting too heated.

 

[M3J]

I think sanji against vergo is overblown cause he did blitz twice and drAw blood twice

he lost clearly against doflamingo , that was bad but doffy did say he was strong

Exactly. The argument against Sanji for this fight is so dumb too

Yep, I don't think anyone on the island but Luffy and Fujitora would have been able to beat Doflamingo, though Sabo could have as well. Sanji just didn't have the advantage that Luffy did in being able to expand with strong enough haki to break out of the strings. Doflamingo had to actually bind Sanji

Not really, cause it never seemed like Mihawk was at a disadvantage. While Vergo broke Sanji's leg

Also, Mihawk was casual the entire arc, and is likely Yonko tier, and bare minimum admiral tier.

Didn't seem like Sanji was at a disadvantage either, especially when he did damage Vergo and showed no sign of damage after the fight. That fight is inconclusive, and there's no way to tell who would have won. Neither showed to be superior over the other.

 

[grey matter]

This is what I see for end game for each characters.

Luffy - will slightly surpass Roger/WB
Zoro - will slightly surpass Mihawk
Sanji - will slightly surpass Kizaru, if the theories are right.

Either way, Zoro will be >> a regular YC1
And Sanji >> a regular YC2

Usual dynamics between captain, and 2nd/3rd in command isn't at play here

Exactly people just think that Zoro being the SH's version of a VC means he's way ahead of Sanji. And honestly the Rayleigh thing doesn't even work for Zoro because the men actually rivalling Roger power wise were WB, Garp and Shiki.


Mad?

Well might want to check my edit. Love how you ignored the example of Sanji with Zoro actually fighting opponents on the same level though, which is the topic of discussion in the power level thread.

Just saying, Sanji was teaming up with Luffy to fight an emperor before it was mainstream. Dies*

Well, yeah, kinda.
You're being condescending while I genuinely didn't remember Luffy fighting together with Sanji and was asking for it.
Well ok, you posted one now. That's all I was asking for. But again, it's in absence of Zoro in the arc,

What you're doing here is so transparent anyway.
You're pretending like the gap between no 2 and no 3 of the top dogs of the OP isn't significant, while that's clearly not the case.

Rayleigh is treated as one of the legends of the WB/Roger era, and is still an admiral tier while old and rusted. We didn't know of Copper until recently.
Marco was compared directly to admirals, became captain after WB died, and was treated as a potential Yonko after Marineford. And currently 2v1'd King and Queen for hours while expending energy healing up thousands of soldiers
Katakuri/Smoothie, it's obvious.
King is overwhelming Zoro while not even in hybrid form (unless what he is fighting against Zoro is his hybrid form, idk), while Queen has been getting smacked by Sanji

 

[AmitDS]

What you're doing here is so transparent anyway.
You're pretending like the gap between no 2 and no 3 of the top dogs of the OP isn't significant, while that's clearly not the case.

Doesn't matter if it's 'transparent', it's what's given. If people have an issue with the fact that Zoro is not way stronger than Sanji then they need to take it up with Oda. Feats and hype made it the case. Until and unless King is shown to be way beyond Queen, my point stands and is the truth. They are even called the wings of the pirate king to denote parity but of course it's rejected here.

@Bold. Um not really. Where is the proof of this?

Rayleigh is treated as one of the legends of the WB/Roger era, and is still an admiral tier while old and rusted. We didn't know of Copper until recently.
Marco was compared directly to admirals, became captain after WB died, and was treated as a potential Yonko after Marineford. And currently 2v1'd King and Queen for hours while expending energy healing up thousands of soldiers
Katakuri/Smoothie, it's obvious.
King is overwhelming Zoro while not even in hybrid form (unless what he is fighting against Zoro is his hybrid form, idk), while Queen has been getting smacked by Sanji

Meanwhile Shiki and WB are stated to be Roger's equals in official sources and Garp is portrayed as such and stated to have nearly killed him many times. Rayleigh is *checks notes* a legend and his first mate and we have no evidence that he's closer to Roger than Scopper. Okay.

King is using all his forms and Zoro's on the defensive so...

Spoiler

Neither King nor Queen have gone all out and once again this just favors Sanji if he does do better against Queen than Zoro does against King since King is the stronger of the 2. Not really helping the Zoro >>>> Sanji thing, lol

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

I do think by portrayal and aura , number 1 and 2 commanders are somewhat comparable

jack cowers a bit to both king and queen and treats them with honorifics while they have a bickering rivalry and do seem almost equal in standing and aura

vista and Marco didn’t seem that far apart in marineford

Zoro and sanji

even scopper and Rayleigh too