One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Crimson Ice]

It’s not like Yamato outright says he is weakened.

If we assume what you say is true (Which it isn’t) it’s a massive advantage if you manage to do a little bit of damage get KOed, healed up, do a little bit of damage, get KOed, healed up, repeat when your opponent is not being healed.

Even if he wins this fight Luffy will only be YC1+ level or Admiral level or Low top tier or Yonko- level or whatever you want to call it.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 21, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 21, 2021 ---

In attack power- yes. In attack power I rate him above Shanks and Roger since they left no scar on Kaido.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 21, 2021 ---

Whenever I talk about powerscaling in the spoilers thread I always end up getting banned.

Weakened=/= heavily injured, words mean things, Nobody is denying that Luffy doesn't have the advantage, you don't need to lie, you're exaggerating Kaido's condition to undercut Luffy. Oda has already put an asterisk next to Luffy's inevitable win. Luffy is for sure on the level of a Yonko, he's just not stronger than Kaido.

P.S. What you said in the bold is hilariously wrong, I just needed to point that out because it's funny.

 

[M3J]

Zoro has AoE attacks like Tatsumaki which are undodgeable.

G4 Luffy was damaged by Cracker.

Zoro stomped Pica who is stronger than Vergo who stomped Sanji who held his own against Judge who fought on par with Snack.

How big do you think the gap between Snack and Cracker's physicals are ?

how is Tatsumaki undodgeable? And by a Future Sight using, fast Luffy?

How? And this was before he used CoC in a different way.

Vergo did not stomp Sanji at all, and this line of logic is nonsense anyway. Zoro had trouble with Pica until Pica was forced to go head-on against Zoro.

Also, this isn't DBZ where things are very simplified in power levels. And I don't care about their physicals, I care about what Zoro and Luffy have shown.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Sulong Cat/Dog : YC2+, if not lower ends of YC1.
I mean, their base was YC3, and Sulong is a powerful transformation. Look at what it did to fodder like carrot lol

Kyoshiro: YC2

Kin'nemon: YC2 (lets be real, he got retconned)

Shutenmaru: YC3+
He was stronger than Jack. But, I think he and Jack were close enough to the point he wasn't a YC2

Kawamatsu, Izo, Kiku, Raizo: YC4

Nah kinemon is still YC3 or yc4 that’s still a considerable boost from where he was , Zoro isn’t toying
Kinemon is the leader but he still kinda concedes that ashura , kyoshiro , kawamatsu are the top guns among them ( and by extension inu and neko who are now at par with them ) , plus he’s part of the lot who skipped 20 years

 

[BoyNextDoor]

How on earth is it a 1v1 if Kaido is heavily injured and has fought dozens of people already ?

is there any indication that kaidous attack power is less than it was before? is there any indication that his durability is less than before? is there any indication that his stamina is less than before? was kaidou breathing heavy from tiredness and wincing from pain at the start of this round with luffy? where is the indication of any of these things? there is no sign of any lasting effect from the SN fight. kaidou can fight for days. 1 hour of slapping kids around makes no difference to him

 

[grey matter]

Nah kinemon is still YC3 or yc4 that’s still a considerable boost from where he was , Zoro isn’t toying
Kinemon is the leader but he still kinda concedes that ashura , kyoshiro , kawamatsu are the top guns among them ( and by extension inu and neko who are now at par with them ) , plus he’s part of the lot who skipped 20 years

I put Kin'nemon at YC2 mainly because he's the leader. Plus, he has tanked quite a few blows from Kaido

When did Kin'nemon concede that? I might have missed it

is there any indication that kaidous attack power is less than it was before? is there any indication that his durability is less than before? is there any indication that his stamina is less than before? was kaidou breathing heavy from tiredness and wincing from pain at the start of this round with luffy? where is the indication of any of these things? there is no sign of any lasting effect from the SN fight. kaidou can fight for days. 1 hour of slapping kids around makes no difference to him

Wrong.

Kaido can barely keep the island floating, with Yamato commenting that the dude is running out of gas.

He has had an insane gauntlet against strong opponents before this final battle against Luffy, where everyone (except maybe Kid) had the ability to break his immunity. Two rounds of the gauntlet against Luffy himself. All the while spending energy flying an island across the sea

Obviously it has taken a toll. The manga outright tells us that is the case.
This is why they are desperate about Momonuske figuring out his devil fruit fast, because they consider Kaido running out of steam, before the island reaches the capital, a very real possibility.

 

[Ketimatsu]

Toxic to call you out for being a hypocrite?

Interesting, interesting....

Maybe don't end a post criticizing power level discussion... on a power level discussion thread... by saying Zoro would cut Luffy's arms off in a fight.... despite Luffy never having made such a devastating mistake in a fight before?

Nothing hypocrite, if you still do not understand the point of this sentence, that to me the comparison does not make sense. That's beyond understanding of the manga... Especially when I tell you explicitly my post was not in the power thread...

Luffy always made rash moves in his fights, he goes head on like vs Enel. And if you want more explicit, he did it vs. Mihawk where he barely saw before it was too late his arms will be cut off....

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

I put Kin'nemon at YC2 mainly because he's the leader. Plus, he has tanked quite a few blows from Kaido

When did Kin'nemon concede that? I might have missed it



Wrong.

Kaido can barely keep the island floating, with Yamato commenting that the dude is running out of gas.

He has had an insane gauntlet against strong opponents before this final battle against Luffy, where everyone (except maybe Kid) had the ability to break his immunity. Two rounds of the gauntlet against Luffy himself. All the while spending energy flying an island across the sea

Obviously it has taken a toll. The manga outright tells us that is the case.
This is why they are desperate about Momonuske figuring out his devil fruit fast, because they consider Kaido running out of steam, before the island reaches the capital, a very real possibility.

in the anime is worded with a stronger implication , and in general those 3 are considered the upper tier fighters of the scabbards, then add the 20 year buff for them

 

[Pirate Queen]

Nothing hypocrite, if you still do not understand the point of this sentence, that to me the comparison does not make sense. That's beyond understanding of the manga... Especially when I tell you explicitly my post was not in the power thread...

Luffy always made rash moves in his fights, he goes head on like vs Enel. And if you want more explicit, he did it vs. Mihawk where he barely saw before it was too late his arms will be cut off....

So if he didn't get his arms cut off by Mihawk, how would he get his arms cut off by Zoro?

We aren't talking a stupid mistake here. You are talking about a very life changing critical injury. Luffy has NEVER shown that type of recklessness before. Luffy has fought much stronger people than Zoro and never lost his arms.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 21, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 21, 2021 ---

.

P.S. What you said in the bold is hilariously wrong, I just needed to point that out because it's funny.

Wait till he finds out Kaido has lost 7 times in the past and didn't get a single scar from those encounters.

And even funnier, wait til Luffy beats him without leaving a single scar

 

[XXGenesis]

Sulong Cat/Dog : YC2+, if not lower ends of YC1.
I mean, their base was YC3, and Sulong is a powerful transformation. Look at what it did to fodder like carrot lol

Kyoshiro: YC2

Kin'nemon: YC2 (lets be real, he got retconned)

Shutenmaru: YC3+
He was stronger than Jack. But, I think he and Jack were close enough to the point he wasn't a YC2

Kawamatsu, Izo, Kiku, Raizo: YC4

I don’t think Sulong form gives that great of a boost to jump Tiers. More like YC3+…I could see YC 2 winning every time against them….Dog/Cat stalemated with Jack. With Sulong they win; *Didn’t like that Sulong was needed for Perospero, he’s inferior to their base.

Kyoshiro I also doubt it. He also only hassle few casual feats; I’m giving him YC3 at best.

Kinenemon, disagree again. It was never stated he was the strongest scabbard, just the leader of the group. Shutenmaru easily was stronger before Oden transformed Kuri town, & still is. Retconned??? Slightly…We know he lost to Law, but isn’t weak & should be stronger anyway; He scraps with Brook, and portrayal there afterwards he didn’t seem much stronger than Brook by much. So it’s ok for Kinenemon to be YC4 lv

Shuntenmaru stronger than Jack? Idk about that. He was able to harm him but I doubt he’s stronger. I think the Minks are stronger than Shuntenmaru

Shutenmaru, Cat/Viper & Kyoshiro I believe all to be equal to Jack; Only the Sulong are definitively stronger.

The other Scabbards are in the ball park of Peros Pero. Not quite commander lv YC4 at best but above an executive lv

 

[BoyNextDoor]

There's no rule that a weaker character can't be better than a stronger character in one stat. Kizaru is faster than Roger.

first of all you dont even know how fast roger is. maybe kizaru is but if thats the case then that would be because of his fruit. thats different. thats like saying sugar is younger than luffy. well yes technically but its a devil fruit thing. and anyway everytime kizaru went against someone on his level like rayleigh he didnt really speed blitz them. him against rayleigh played out like a normal sword fight and rayleigh looked just as fast in terms of actual combat.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 21, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 21, 2021 ---

also laugh out loud at zoro ever cutting luffy when luffy blocked zoros sword with his sandal in the alabasta arc.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Luffy isn't unhittable with FS. Kaido managed to tag him and Zoro is as fast if not faster than Kaido. Tatsumaki is a massive aoe attack, I don't see FS helping you dodge it.

With his sword. Luffy can definitely block with CoC coating but if he gets hit he's in a world of hurt. Kaido's durability >> Luffy's durability and dead man's game was able to make Kaido vomit blood.

One wounded Kaido one can fight and maybe win against a weakened Kaido. They've both shown they're weaker than Kaido but not that much weaker than him. Hardly a huge portrayal gap. And once Zoro masters coc coating even this gap will disappear.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 21, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 21, 2021 ---

You're policing language too much.

There's no rule that a weaker character can't be better than a stronger character in one stat. Kizaru is faster than Roger.

Nah, words mean things.

And just because that rule exists DOES NOT MEAN IT APPLIES TO ZORO. Roger and Shanks' damage output shits on Zoro's.

 

[grey matter]

in the anime is worded with a stronger implication , and in general those 3 are considered the upper tier fighters of the scabbards, then add the 20 year buff for them

Ehh, not really convincing

First pics:
This is obviously referring to the remaining scabbards. 6 of them have already made themselves known, there are 3 left

Second pics:
Seems like a gag to me. "Don't drag us down geezers" "Nah we're 20 years stronger"
But this could be right, assuming the scabbards hadn't already peaked 20 years back.


Not saying you're wrong. Kyoshiro and Shutenmaru have proved that they're incredibly strong. But again, are there any panels implying these three are the strongest among the Scabbards?

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 21, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 21, 2021 ---

I don’t think Sulong form gives that great of a boost to jump Tiers. More like YC3+…I could see YC 2 winning every time against them….Dog/Cat stalemated with Jack. With Sulong they win; *Didn’t like that Sulong was needed for Perospero, he’s inferior to their base.

Kyoshiro I also doubt it. He also only hassle few casual feats; I’m giving him YC3 at best.

Kinenemon, disagree again. It was never stated he was the strongest scabbard, just the leader of the group. Shutenmaru easily was stronger before Oden transformed Kuri town, & still is. Retconned??? Slightly…We know he lost to Law, but isn’t weak & should be stronger anyway; He scraps with Brook, and portrayal there afterwards he didn’t seem much stronger than Brook by much. So it’s ok for Kinenemon to be YC4 lv

Shuntenmaru stronger than Jack? Idk about that. He was able to harm him but I doubt he’s stronger. I think the Minks are stronger than Shuntenmaru

Shutenmaru, Cat/Viper & Kyoshiro I believe all to be equal to Jack; Only the Sulong are definitively stronger.

The other Scabbards are in the ball park of Peros Pero. Not quite commander lv YC4 at best but above an executive lv

Jack was getting completely smacked by the Sulong form Dog, while base Dog is <= Jack.
Carrot also went from being fodder to actually going something useful.
IMO Sulong is a big powerspike

He was portrayed about equal to pre Enma Zoro, who IMO is YC2.
When Kyoshiro arrived with his army in onigashima, prior to knowing his true allegiance, Zoro warned the strawhats of him as a formidable warrior


The leader of the group being weaker than more than half of them don't sound right to me lmao
Also, he tanked quite a few hits from Kaido


Stuenmaru defeinitely seemed stronger than Jack there. He landed more hits. By the end, Jack had bandages around him, while Shutenmaru left with no real injuries


Yea, apart from the ones I specifically mentioned, they seem around Perospero or Ulti level, both of whom I consider YC4 tier

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Ehh, not really convincing

First pics:
This is obviously referring to the remaining scabbards. 6 of them have already made themselves known, there are 3 left

Second pics:
Seems like a gag to me. "Don't drag us down geezers" "Nah we're 20 years stronger"
But this could be right, assuming the scabbards hadn't already peaked 20 years back.


Not saying you're wrong. Kyoshiro and Shutenmaru have proved that they're incredibly strong. But again, are there any panels implying these three are the strongest among the Scabbards?

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 21, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 21, 2021 ---

Jack was getting completely smacked by the Sulong form Dog, while base Dog is <= Jack.
Carrot also went from being fodder to actually going something useful.
IMO Sulong is a big powerspike

He was portrayed about equal to pre Enma Zoro, who IMO is YC2.
When Kyoshiro arrived with his army in onigashima, prior to knowing his true allegiance, Zoro warned the strawhats of him as a formidable warrior


The leader of the group being weaker than more than half of them don't sound right to me lmao
Also, he tanked quite a few hits from Kaido


Stuenmaru defeinitely seemed stronger than Jack there. He landed more hits. By the end, Jack had bandages around him, while Shutenmaru left with no real injuries


Yea, apart from the ones I specifically mentioned, they seem around Perospero or Ulti level, both of whom I consider YC4 tier

The leader of the scabbards was kinda oden
While he was the leader even when they were young , he never got the impression of being the strongest
In the past it was ashura and denjiro that slowed down kaido and briefly skirmished with king and queen
And yeah that was why Oda took out ashura briefly , I don’t think he’s dead but I think he’s a little too poweful and there was no matchup

 

[FetherMan]

Okay, let's put this into context here:

Kaido has been fighting since the beginning of the raid and somewhere in the middle of the battle, decided to raise an entire island with his DF abilities and continue fighting. I mean, if that doesn't clarify how strong the guy is, then I don't know what else needs to be proven here.


p.s., HE'S LITERALLY KEEPING AN ENTIRE ISLAND FLOATING IN MID-AIR, WHILE FIGHTING AND TAKING HITS TO HIS BODY FOR CHRIST'S SAKE. COME ON, PEOPLE ( Zoro and Sanji fans included).

 

[Gallon]

Kaido managed to tag him and Zoro is as fast if not faster than Kaido.

 

[AmitDS]

P.S. What you said in the bold is hilariously wrong, I just needed to point that out because it's funny.

Lmao I was just about to quote that as well xD

So according to this person, we have:

Rayleigh is PK level (because according to them, fans believe he is so that means it must be true)
Beckman is Yonkou level (because of the VC referring to his 'existence' as the same as Shanks')
Zoro is >= Luffy (because of the Agenda)
And now Zoro's AP is > Yonkou/PK (because of... I don't even know... this is even beyond the agenda )
Bonus: I just skimmed and saw now that Pica > Vergo. Totally not because of the agenda as well lol

Spoiler

You should see the threads they make on another forum lmao

Just because Kaido did not have scars from clashing with other top tiers doesn't automatically mean that Zoro beats them in dmg output. What kind of logic is that? It's hilarious how wrong they are when you have IN-CANON, Kaido has 7 confirmed losses but the only notable scar we have learnt of is Oden, and judging from Kaido's PTSD from Oden, he probably hasn't gotten a scar comparable to Oden's in those 7 losses.

I'm pretty sure Luffy will defeat Kaido without scarring him like Oden, or even Zoro. Does that mean Zoro's scar and subsequent dismissal to downstairs was more impressive than Luffy's eventual win? Nope.

Spoiler

I'm sure it does to them xD

 

[albertwv]

Why do we keep arguing with LadyVados, her saying that Zolo's Attack Power > Roger's is enough for me to dismiss her entirely.

Another thing, Luffy post TS was not YC1 @Pirate Queen he has only attained YC1 level when he reached Onigashima.
Zolo was not YC level until Wano. Teleport Fishman Island Zolo with Enma to current arc and he would not be able to scar Kaido or control Enma, look hes having a hard time controlling Enma from the latest chapter.

Shutenmaru vs Jack, Shuten made one huge cut on Jack, but the duel wasnt over it was interrupted by Kaidos arrival. Its hard to gauge, but it seems Shutenmaru was the winner. I would still rank him as YC3.

Kyoshro/Denjiro to me is the most overhyped RS, even though we know little of his strength. HE easily blocked Zolo but that doesnt mean they both were going at it seriously. Zolo did acknowledge his strength but he did so with Kamazo as well and then proceeded to take him down swiftly. Zolo also acknowledged Apoo, I think, but then took him down swiftly too.
Without knowing Denjiros strength compared to others I would rank him YC4/3. I say he is Flying 6 level.
Izo, Raizo, Kawa, Kiku are all YC4 level as well. But I see them having difficulty fighting Page One who may be the weakest F6.

Also Im on the Luffy is NOT Yonko level ship. Kaido is tired from fighting strong opponents back to back while keeping a whole island afloat. Kaido has been tanking hits left and right. Even if Luffy defeats him, it wouldnt be as if Luffy >/= Kaido. No way. Just like the Kata fight, Luffy "won" the fight but we all clearly saw how inferior he was to Kata.

Luffy vs Kata, take away FS and Kata can still defeat Luffy. Katas hits were hurting Luffy more than the other way around. Kata had to give himself a handicap.

Also, why are you guys ignoring the Sanji vs Queen fight is it truly over?

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

In attack power- yes. In attack power I rate him above Shanks and Roger since they left no scar on Kaido.

In what circumstances have Roger and Kaido ever fought for you to spout this nonsense?
Kaido wasn't even close to been an obstacle to Roger and if he was he'd be getting swatted like a fly the same way Oden was.
Problem is he won't have a scar to show off to the world cos he'd very likely die if any such battle happens.

Roger and Whitebeard at the time were the strongest being out there. There was no challenging them.

As for Shanks vs Kaido... it's very clear Kaido knows those who he can't fight recklessly with. Hence he'll resort to blocking and dodging attacks (same as when he fought Luffy wielding ACoA and Big Mom) rather than tanking them as he often does with almost anyone not in that ballpark. So he's definitely not going to have a scar from Shanks so long as they're not fighting to the death and no Yonko crew have so far until now.

 

[Fox666]

Kyoshro/Denjiro to me is the most overhyped RS, even though we know little of his strength. HE easily blocked Zolo but that doesnt mean they both were going at it seriously. Zolo did acknowledge his strength but he did so with Kamazo as well and then proceeded to take him down swiftly. Zolo also acknowledged Apoo, I think, but then took him down swiftly too.

The powerscaling before the raid started is inconsistent, and I would prefer to just ignore it.

Unless you think Ulti could fight Kaido because she forced Luffy to use Gear 4 right before the rooftop battle, I would forget Kyoshiro blocking Zoro.

 

[albertwv]

The powerscaling before the raid started is inconsistent, and I would prefer to just ignore it.

Unless you think Ulti could fight Kaido because she forced Luffy to use Gear 4 right before the rooftop battle, I would forget Kyoshiro blocking Zoro.

I totally agree with you.

Or maybe we are looking at it the wrong way. We all assume everybody on the rooftop fighting the Yonko got stronger compared to those who werent up there simply because they were able to harm Kaido in some way, either by making him cry out in pain, bleed. or scar.
We are using Kaido's durability/toughness/defense as a powerscale to judge those who have or have not/could not harm him. Also we're using his attacks and how well the target takes the club hit, if they defend, dodge, or walk it off.

For example. nobody wants to believe that Kinemon > G4 Luffy in Kuri because Kaido knocked out Luffy in one hit, yet Kinemon was able to survive the hit. Or how Law also took a hit from the club but Laws defense is def inferior to g4 Luffys defense.

Another example, is how G4 Luffy was NOT able to actually harm Kaido in Kuri, but Izo, Kiku, Kawa, Killer, Zolo, Kinemon actually could harm Kaido. Is that implying that those character's attack power > G4 Luffys? Seems ridiculous right.

Oda built this idea that Kaido was invincible in the way that no attack phases him, so far only Oden was able to cut him and scar him.