One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[grey matter]

Why wouldn't katakuri get one shot by kaido? Gear 4 luffy is plenty fast and had foresight.... Along with being very durable as well. I can understand king taking a hit from a yonko and not getting one shot since he has a specific ability which enables to endure extreme damage and even marco since he can heal right back up but katakuri is far less durable than either of them. Gear 4 luffy at the start of the wano arc should be perfectly competitive against the yonko crew's first mates...

Because characters less durable than Katakuri didn't get one shot by Kaido.
Namely, the scabbards and Killer.

G4 Luffy got one shot, and it doesn't make sense considering everything going on in the raid. Hence it being outlier.
Law literally shrugged off a thunder bagua from hybrid Kaido, Am I to believe that he's leagues more tanky than beginning of Wano G4 Luffy?
Zoro exhausted all his stamina and had some of his bones broken, he still took a thunder bagua from hybrid Kaido and didn't get KO'd

Right hand men type commanders are all at a level where they are no longer one shot materials from Yonkos. Even if some are more tanky than others.

Marco for eg, fought BM solo for almost as long as Scabbards vs Kaido. and came out of it unscathed. With BM commending that she doesn't have the time or energy (souls) to spare fighting him.

I understand Marco is a massive tank, but the difference can't be so large that Katakuri is one shot material for Yonkos, while Marco can fight for a considerable time without running out of gas.

 

[kkck]

Because characters less durable than Katakuri didn't get one shot by Kaido.
Namely, the scabbards and Killer.

G4 Luffy got one shot, and it doesn't make sense considering everything going on in the raid. Hence it being outlier.
Law literally shrugged off a thunder bagua from hybrid Kaido, Am I to believe that he's leagues more tanky than beginning of Wano G4 Luffy?
Zoro exhausted all his stamina and had some of his bones broken, he still took a thunder bagua from hybrid Kaido and didn't get KO'd

Right hand men type commanders are all at a level where they are no longer one shot materials from Yonkos. Even if some are more tanky than others.

Marco for eg, fought BM solo for almost as long as Scabbards vs Kaido. and came out of it unscathed. With BM commending that she doesn't have the time or energy (souls) to spare fighting him.

I understand Marco is a massive tank, but the difference can't be so large that Katakuri is one shot material for Yonkos, while Marco can fight for a considerable time without running out of gas.

Yep. Because power levels are BS, nothing matters and oda has fewer flying fucks to give than drunk kaido. Since this haki powerup BS the powerscaling in the series has been thrown out the window and set on fire. It's also probable kaido was taking it easy on the scabbards, at least initially. Since he hoped they would give him a nice fight. He fought them mostly in his dragon form which the scabbards were reasonably well equipped enough to shut down. And when he switched to his human form he defeated them pretty quickly.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 18, 2022, Original Post Date: Jan 18, 2022 ---

Seriously, this is an arc where we have had amazing totally not absurdly idiotic plot developments like denjiro frowning so hard his facial structure changed. It's not that big a stretch that the supernova captains that fought kaido and big mom are comfortably above YC1 simply because the plot demanded it. Zoro then went on to have a not very close victory over king.. after which zoro fell probably not because of the damage he took during the fight but rather because he was running from fumes a mink medicine that gave him the precise amount of time he needed to beat king.

 

[Rmstorm]

Bro, we see character who are definitely BELOW in durability relative to beginning of Wano Luffy tanking hits from Kaido during the raid.
Scabbards tanked multiple attacks from Kaido.
Law shrugged off a thunder bagua from hybrid Kaido. Zoro, who exhausted all his stamina and had many of his bones broken, got hit by thunder bagua from hybrid Kaido and was still conscious. Maybe you think rooftop Zoro and Law are tankier than beginning of Wano Luffy, but a LOT tankier? I doubt

Beginning of Wano G4 Luffy had stats comparable to Katakuri, and I don't think base Kaido can one shot Katakuri.



Actually, you're right.

He's not fighting in his "base".

Noticed it a lot clearer the second time I read it



I agree Luffy's conqueror's is in the same ballpark as that of Kaido. I see no issue in Luffy competing with him in that regard.

The issue is, without G4, I don't see how Luffy can compete with Kaido's speed and strength.
Advanced conq doesn't improve those.



Oh yes, I definitely agree that some of these "lasted for x days" fights were fully serious.

Like you said, Aokiji and Akainu were serious. So were Jack and Cat/Dog

My point is that, this is an inconsistency/BS from Oda. Because we know that if characters are truly serious, the fight isn't lasting for more than an hour. Because that is what the series has shown us. Every serious fight ends within an hour.

This is precisely the reason these are off screen fights.

The only exception to this I can buy logically, would be Marco and King.
Cause Marco can heal himself until he runs out of stamina. But that would be, him fighting above his paygrade and stalling. If he's fighting someone within his ballpark or below him, the fight ends within an hour if he's serious as well.
Or King facing against a stronger non advanced conq user, he can stall by just staying his his defence mode, until he runs out of stamina.



Yea, it was a double KO IMO.
WB would've eventually succumbed to his injuries and died.
Akainu was straight up KO'd, and would've died if he didn't get lucky and fall off a cliff.


Old WB at beginning of Marineford? Nah, would've still been an very tough battle. He was off his meds for days, was sick and was barely able to use haki.
Old WB in meds, whose conqueror's haki equaled Shanks' ? Definitely. Not destroy, but mid-high diff



The thing is, we see when Luffy is using his advanced conqueror's.
He's exclusively using it for defending himself, or for attacking. Luffy hasn't used it for boosting his speed yet at least, if he was capable of doing that, ODa would've shown it to us already.

Till now, all usages of advanced conqueror's that we have seen are for boosting attack power (deeper hits), and for defense/CQC (using gap to block/push back attacks)

Luffy iw combining Gear 2 and Gear 3 together with 3 Advanced Haki. Gear 2 and zgear 3 combo is more powerful than kaido's physical strength.

Keep in momd Gear 3 alone without Seastone base training was comoqrable to Prime Garp.

Also keep in mind what Fujiora said when it brusied him, he sed Luffy had the power to back up his words with Admirals.

We also have Doflamingo who said, Gear 3 had the power to beat, Gear 2 had the speed to defeat him.

The last time Luffy used Gear 2 + Gear 3 was Moriah's fight.

Then we have it damaging Pika easily,

 

[Core D. Roy]

The only exception to this I can buy logically, would be Marco and King.
Cause Marco can heal himself until he runs out of stamina. But that would be, him fighting above his paygrade and stalling. If he's fighting someone within his ballpark or below him, the fight ends within an hour if he's serious as well.

Fighting above his paygrade? 1v1 Marco will eventually wear down and demolish King.

 

[grey matter]

Fighting above his paygrade? 1v1 Marco will eventually wear down and demolish King.

I wasn't talking about Marco vs King.

I said the only two characters whose fight would last more than an hour if they are serious is Marco and King, if they fought against others above their paygrade.

 

[I Am Atomic]

I wasn't talking about Marco vs King.

I said the only two characters whose fight would last more than an hour if they are serious is Marco and King, if they fought against others above their paygrade.

Why King? He went down in 15 mins to Zoro. And Zoro was below him.

 

[grey matter]

Why King? He went down in 15 mins to Zoro. And Zoro was below him.

King can fight stronger opponents than him without advanced Conqueror's for many hours if he sticks in his defense mode. Traditional offense needs advanced Conqueror's to get past his defense mode

Also, Zoro was above King after he got advanced Conqueror's

 

[I Am Atomic]

King can fight stronger opponents than him without advanced Conqueror's for many hours if he sticks in his defense mode. Traditional offense needs advanced Conqueror's to get past his defense mode

Also, Zoro was above King after he got advanced Conqueror's

King hasn't fought anyone stronger than him for many hours to even make this statement. If you are talking about Marco, then it was 2v1. We don't know what happens if Marco focused solely on King. As stated, Marco was keeping them busy that's all.

Zoro was above King in only attack power. It's not like Zoro got miles ahead of King.

"Traditional offense requires ACoC to damage him and if King sticks to defense."
These points are cherry picking imo. I could say the same about any character "what if Katakuri never gets distracted? Could fight for days"
From what we have seen, King went down in 15 mins.

What if it's Law Vs King? Law will slice up King without aCoC. What then? Tough body won't help against Law since his fruit doesn't care. Only stronger haki can stop Law.

Anyway not something I want to discuss too much. I can see you are a King fan, so I understand

 

[grey matter]

King hasn't fought anyone stronger than him for many hours to even make this statement. If you are talking about Marco, then it was 2v1. We don't know what happens if Marco focused solely on King. As stated, Marco was keeping them busy that's all.

The statement is merely based on his feats.
King has feats of no selling attacks from Zoro which made Kaido bleed.

Zoro was above King in only attack power. It's not like Zoro got miles ahead of King.

Sure.

But that made the difference here really.

King was above Zoro in other stats, but was around same ballpark.

Zoro was far above King in attack power, once he got advanced conqueror's.

So overall, Zoro > King.

"Traditional offense requires ACoC to damage him and if King sticks to defense."
These points are cherry picking imo. I could say the same about any character "what if Katakuri never gets distracted? Could fight for days"
From what we have seen, King went down in 15 mins.

But the thing here is, Katakuri can get attacked even if he's not distracted. You just need to be fast enough, or have good AOE.

King in his defense mode cannot be damaged by traditional attacks if not for advanced conqueror's.
He doesn't really need to do anything here, he can keep tanking.

Katakuri needs to actively dodge the attacks.

That is the difference,
One is dependent on action, the other is a passive ability.

King went down due to advanced conqueror's.
Take that away from Zoro, and King can stay put at one position in his defense mode, and Zoro wouldn't scratch him.

Anyway not something I want to discuss too much. I can see you are a King fan, so I understand

The funny thing here is, I like Katakuri more than King lol.

These are my top 5:
Doflamingo
Rob Lucci
Enel
Law
Katakuri

King would make by top 15, but that's about it.

 

[XXGenesis]

The power scailing is Out the window with Wano. The top/mid tiers are way too cluttered with characters one shotting each other but surviving worst.

As for the 1st Mates/ Right hands; Aside from the last 2; Everyone here should not be one Shotted by Kaido. Luffy getting one shot at the time makes sense….

Rayleigh
Ben Beckman
Sabo
Marco
Shiryuu
Katakuri
Zoro
King
Killer
Beppo

 

[Pirate Queen]

I don't get the King defense when he has put on some one the worst showings for a Yonko Commander.

His biggest accomplishment is losing to someone that was arguably weaker than him in all stats but AP.

Katakuri wins 10/10 fights against him.

 

[Crimson Ice]

I don't get the King defense when he has put on some one the worst showings for a Yonko Commander.

His biggest accomplishment is losing to someone that was arguably weaker than him in all stats but AP.

Katakuri wins 10/10 fights against him.

King was more impressive than Katakuri LMAO

 

[Pirate Queen]

King was more impressive than Katakuri LMAO

Sure he was

 

[Crimson Ice]

Sure he was

Overwhelming post Enma Zoro for most of your fight>>Failing to knock out WCI Luffy after hours of beating him up.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Overwhelming post Enma Zoro for most of your fight>>Failing to knock out WCI Luffy after hours of beating him up.

 

[grey matter]

The power scailing is Out the window with Wano. The top/mid tiers are way too cluttered with characters one shotting each other but surviving worst.

As for the 1st Mates/ Right hands; Aside from the last 2; Everyone here should not be one Shotted by Kaido. Luffy getting one shot at the time makes sense….

Rayleigh
Ben Beckman
Sabo
Marco
Shiryuu
Katakuri
Zoro
King
Killer
Beppo

Killer is not one shot material for Kaido by feats. He tanked hits from both BM and Kaido, and then went onto low-mid diff Hawkins.
It's clear that the five supernovas shown in the rooftop are special, Killer is one of them and is the 5th strongest one IMO.


Bepo is Bepo
No disrespect to Bepo though

I don't get the King defense when he has put on some one the worst showings for a Yonko Commander.

His biggest accomplishment is losing to someone that was arguably weaker than him in all stats but AP.

How? He was pretty much stomping Zoro until he got advanced conqueror's.

Zoro has always had lopsided attack power relative to his tier.
Even though current Zoro's other stats are around YC1 tier, current Zoro's attack power is admiral/low-Yonko level, though he can maintain that attack power only for a short period of time currently.

If you think this is exaggeration, Zoro was injuring Kaido with his attacks with just advanced armament in the rooftop fight. BM asked Kaido to dodge his attacks. And so on.
Current Zoro's attack power is a tier above what we saw in rooftop.

King still tanked some hits from advanced conqueror's Zoro before going down, inspite of Zoro bypassing King's defense mode with his advanced conqueror's

Now, I do agree that King probably could've won that fight if not for some CIS. He should've notice that Zoro was having trouble maintaining that level of haki, and just stalled by flying around for eg. But he saw Zoro (and humans) beneath him, didn't doubt his victory, and paid the price.
But to claim that someone who was on or above rooftop Zoro in all stats in his defense mode alone and was overwhelming rooftop Zoro comfortably, had a bad showing? I don't get that.


Plus, lets get this one also out of the way.
Zoro's opponents never last as long as Luffy's, this is simply how Oda writes the fights. Katakuri was an arc boss, he was Luffy's fight of the arc. Of course his showing and depth will exceed King, who was a mini boss and right hand man of the arc boss.
This shouldn't have a bearing on overall PLs of the said characters.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 20, 2022, Original Post Date: Jan 20, 2022 ---

************

Why did we even go here lol?

All I said was that King and Marco are the only characters who are capable of fighting for more than an hour in a complete serious fight. That too, only if they fight above their paygrade.
- Because Marco can heal himself until he runs out of stamina, if he faces someone above his paygrade.
- Because King can keep tanking attacks in his defense mode until he runs out of stamina, if he faces someone above his paygrade (without advanced conqueror's)

I think these are kinda obvious?

Why did this turn into PL discussion lol?
My point was that, a completely serious fight between two characters, 99.999% of them ends within an hour. And hence the "they fought of x days" from Oda is BS. With few exceptions like these two, who excel in stalling/tanking.

I forgot Bartolomeo too . He also can stay in his barrier until he runs out of stamina.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Why did we even go here lol?

All I said was that King and Marco are the only characters who are capable of fighting for more than an hour in a complete serious fight. That too, only if they fight above their paygrade.
- Because Marco can heal himself until he runs out of stamina, if he faces someone above his paygrade.
- Because King can keep tanking attacks in his defense mode until he runs out of stamina, if he faces someone above his paygrade (without advanced conqueror's)

I think these are kinda obvious?

Why did this turn into PL discussion lol?
My point was that, in a completely serious fight between two players, 99.999% of them ends within an hour. And hence the "they fought of x days" from Oda is BS. With few exceptions like these two, who excel in stalling.

I forgot Bartolomeo too . He also can stay in his barrier until he runs out of stamina.

No WAY did you leave out Katakuri who not only has a better ability to fight for a prolonged period of time but is the only one that has ACTUALLY fought for over an hour



No one is buying this...

 

[grey matter]

No WAY did you leave out Katakuri who not only has a better ability to fight for a prolonged period of time but is the only one that has ACTUALLY fought for over an hour



No one is buying this...

I said "above paygrade" for a reason.
Luffy was BELOW Katakuri in WCI. Plus, the fight lasted many hours because Katakuri himself wasn't serious, or else Luffy = dead.

Katakuri can be taken out by high speed and/or high AOE.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 20, 2022, Original Post Date: Jan 20, 2022 ---

SMH, why is this so hard with some people?

 

[Pirate Queen]

I said "above paygrade" for a reason.
Luffy was BELOW Katakuri in WCI. Plus, the fight lasted many hours because Katakuri himself wasn't serious, or else Luffy = dead.

Katakuri can be taken out by high speed and/or high AOE.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 20, 2022, Original Post Date: Jan 20, 2022 ---

SMH, why is this so hard with some people?

Katakuri literally said Luffy was his equal at one point during their fight. Your literary choosing to ignore facts at this point to push a narrative that does not coincide with the manga.

It's hard for people because you just making things up and expect people to go along with it maybe? Just a thought.

Just because your structure your opinion well doesn't mean it makes any canonical sense

 

[grey matter]

Katakuri literally said Luffy was his equal at one point during their fight. Your literary choosing to ignore facts at this point to push a narrative that does not coincide with the manga.

It's hard for people because you just making things up and expect people to go along with it maybe? Just a thought.

Just because your structure your opinion well doesn't mean it makes any canonical sense

Katakuri was still better in offense and CQC. Luffy reached the same tier, that's all.
And the fight lasted for hours because Katakuri didn't kill off Luffy in the chances he got (you can't possibly deny this), and allowed Luffy to grow over the many hours to finally reach same tier as him.
Once Katakuri recognized Luffy, the fight ended within an hour, demonstrating my point. A completely serious fight cannot last more than an hour.


What did I make up here?


What doesn't make canonical sense?


**********

Consider Katakuri vs anyone

Both completely bloodlusted.

In which fight, does the fight last for more than an hour?