Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.
It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.
For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.
As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.
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The point is, it is pretty certain that we have not seen the full extent of Jinbe's powers.
He made Who's Who look like a kitten and that is his only 1v1 after more than 400 chapters.
We've been given a very detailed look into Fishman Karate as of now, and it's mostly through Hody.
I have also been doing Karate when I was young. What Jinbe does is actual Karate. But it is mostly basic techniques you already learn as a white belt.
The Ogi techniques are very powerful though and the way they are shown, they would work on Kaido or Big Mom, too. One of them literally shoots water through your rupturing body without leaving any hole.
What you also have to consider is the progression of plot and the narrative importance of each Strawhat. Compared to Sanji, Jinbe is not a major character. Full feature fights are rare, and it sounds unbelievable Jinbe would get more fights than Sanji. In fact, the most likely scenario is one fight for Jinbe and two for Sanji and that's it.
Jinbe is kinda old, and he hasn't even shown his current potential yet. Very unlikely Jinbe receives a power up. The character seems maxed out. Sanji on the other hand is very likely to receive another power-up, especially if he will fight an Admiral which seems rather likely at this point.
I'll stick with Jinbe > Sanji as of now. As I said, Sanji is still about pinpoint damage, that even with the increased power should not matter against the strongest characters, especially since his skills in CoA have never been highlighted to be special (unlike Jinbe's whom could believably be introduced as always having been an aCoA user right now).
I think there are few characters that got as humiliated in a fully featured fight as Who's Who. After his power-up, Sanji overpowered Queen to a large extent, but end of the day, Queen went down after a long struggle. Had all the other stuff not happened, like..fighting Marco, Queen and Sanji would still be fighting.
And again I see Jinbe being said to be stronger than Sanji even after the cook's super buff. In fact, he is the most overrated character.
Sanji only passed out afterwards as a side effect of having his genes awakened.
Sanji before getting angry to find out that it was Queen who did "that", was with his heart in doubt and not fighting with everything he could. Then he found out what he got and the result was what we saw: an all-out massacre on top of calamity. Sanji has shown enough speed, to literally go invisible in front of a commander. Her string of attacks with Ifrit Jambe did more damage than all the hits Queen had previously taken together. Oda, like many mangaka, demonstrates how injured a character is by the grooves in them. Notice that before the final sequence of Sanji's attacks, Queen was practically clean and at the end he appears flying away from Onigashima with his body full of wounds. Queen is not able to keep up with Sanji and if you want to use the argument that the fight would continue, Sanji just had to increase the number of blows in the sequence.
Marco made minimal contribution to reducing Queen's HP bar. We know the resilience of calamities. No complaints were ever made by the two about Marco's damage.
It's overrated exactly because in addition to what I said and the manga itself struggles to present, there are still people who think Jinbei is superior without relevant achievements. Sanji, realizing his real level reached, beat Queen more easily than Jinbe beat WW, Queen>>Jack>>WW, and again, Jinbe still has his hype effect. Basically you ignored the capabilities that Sanji has the most and put the Fishman as superior for two things you pointed out: Busoshoku Haki which is guesswork seen Sanji also has and Kyojin Karate causing internal damage, but current Sanji is also able to do this with electricity (IFJ) that causes internal burns.
Weakened Big Mom or not she was an obstacle that not even Luffy could overcome at the time. Jimbei knocked her off the Sunny
????? Zesus attack did hit Big Mom?? It left a crater took out her children, Big Mom continued her pursuit of the SHP uninjured.
Franky riding a motorcycle across her face is a gag & outlier showing of Big Mom. Nor did it take Big Mom out??
It is not impossible as the manga shows for a weaker opponent to get the 1 up on a stronger opponent. Whether they can win or not. I can use numerous example of this.
Robin did not land a hit on Big Mom, she used her DF powers to continue rolling Big Mom the direction Jimbei flipped her.
Some revisionist facts in post, main point Jimbei being stronger than lower trio had merit at a point in time. You can try to discredit feats by saying Big Mom has gag moments. We just seen Big Mom go all out & Kidd & Law barely manage a win
And even then that "win" was thoroughly helped by the bombs going off that Law had no idea about. Just being pushed out of Onigashima she'd have made her way right back up if Law's attack didn't JUST SO HAPPEN to drop that bomb in the armory. Some people will see a goofy-ish design and go BIG MEME- FACT, and ignore Kawaii Kaidou because he's a traditionally "cool looking" design normally. It's flippin' One Piece. Even Roger knew better than to outright fight Big Mom on her turf. That's fucking cred in her favor.
Are you a long time lurker or just totally new to the community? Because Sanji might be the most hated character in the Strawhats according to vocal forum goers.
@really_jonny Thinks Jimbei is overrated. Kool, I think many just disagree as for your reasoning why you think so.
@McNuss Sanji is stronger than Jimbei. Not by a lot! But he’s stronger for sure. Who’s Who’s got low-mid Diff & Queen got Mid Diff…Sanji’s opponent is of a higher Caliber…Even though Jimbei has got the one up on Big Mom twice he’s never actually caused her damage.
Jimbei has a long record of Piracy within the story and has consistent Showings imo. Pretty well balanced Warlord imo; I think Sanji became stronger than Jimbei once his Genes awakened.
Tell some examples of Sanji overestimation in this forum. I'm totally new, the day I met I created an account.
I've never seen Sanji be compared to characters two levels above him just for hype like they do with Jinbe for being ex Shichibukai and a mediocre feat on top of an extremely weakened Big Mom.
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Level of damage that Big Mom Full takes without a scratch and without pain:
Damage level capable of injuring and generating screams of pain in a weakened Big Mom who faced Jinbe (it being clearly said that she was too thin):
Are you a long time lurker or just totally new to the community? Because Sanji might be the most hated character in the Strawhats according to vocal forum goers.
And unreasonably so, with BS/hypocritical reasons.
Jinbei isn't overrated, but he does have some feats like stopping BIg Mom and throwing her. Luffy and Sanji weren't able to do anything to her, while it took Kidd and Law to take her down, and mainly thanks to the bombs.
Monkey D. Luffy
Roronoa Zoro, Trafalgar D. Water Law
Jinbe
Vinsmoke Sanji, Donquixote Doflamingo
Vergo
Pica
Franky
Nico Robin
Cavendish (&Farul)
Brook, Sai
Nami
Monet
Trebol
Bartolomeo
Diamante
Tony Tony Chopper
Dellinger, Gladius, Senor Pink, Lao G
Bellamy
Hajrudin, Ideo, Blue Gilly
Baby 5, Stansen, Road, Goldberg, Gerd, Machvise
Usopp, Chinjao, Buffalo
Sugar
Leo, Orlumbus
Giolla
Suleiman, Gambia, Boo, Abdullah, Jeet
Kabu, Bian
Bomba, Ranpo
Inhel, Cotton, Wicca, Baxcon, Daikon, Flapper, Bobomba, Mauji, Nubon, Pellini, Chao, Eikon, Chicory
Viola
Nefeltari Vivi (&Carue)
Kyuin
Columbus
Disco
Pls try to talk about anything else but the Strawhats. This is not the final product until I have added all relevant Post-Timeskip characters, and I would like to see wether I missed something relevant to the level of a mistake.
Dude, most of what you said aren't facts, most of them involved massive reach that I didn't even bother addressing them, and wanted to get straight to the point.
And again, I asked for a panel stating that she was weakened or tired of anything. Such a simple thing and you can't provide it lmao
- Big Mom is comic relief where Tobiroppo-level characters manage to successfully attack her and take her out of the picture. The same is not true of a serious Yonko like Kaido or Admirals. FACT
- Zeus most powerful attack was totally ignored, while nerfed a visually tens/hundreds of times weaker attack caused him damage and screams of pain. FACT
- It was exactly this mega ultra omega nerfed version that Jinbe took down. FACT
- As a comic relief, even if she were Full, such a feat by Jinbe could be invalid. Basic logical link. FACT
- Jinbe in territorial advantage, had problems with a beginner Ace unable to master Haki, in which he was defeated by sleeping WB, that is, light years of a top tier character. FACT
- Opinion. She's not a comic relief character. She was caught off guard by Jinbe + Robin's strategy in the raid. Not the same as Jinbe facing her head on in the ship.
And again, basic understanding of narrative lets us distinguish between moments that are comic relief and moments that are not. BM chasing Chopper and Ussop was 100% comic relief. Jinbe and Robin throwing her, maybe, but probably not - it seemed like it was just them catching her off guard. Jinbe facing BM in the ship is 100% serious, zero comic relief there
- The first was Zeus' strongest attack while latter 10 or 100 times weaker according to who? Where TF are you getting these numbers from? Complete headcanon. She had similar expressions to both the attacks, which debunks your "fact" that the attack was completely ignored
If anything, the image you posted suggest otherwise. The latter attack had Zeus completely discharged.
- Ultra omega nerfed according to who? You? Post panels suggesting it, or it's not fact.
- Nothing about those panels suggest comic relief. It was as serious as you could get in that arc. Saying it was comic relief and therefore invalid, is nothing but your opinion and a massive reach.
- That's more of a feat for Ace, than anti feat for Jinbe.
Also, it is confirmed that Ace knew haki by the time he faced Jinbe. No facts there my guy
- Just by swinging his swords without naming attacks, Zoro was able to cut through a statue said to be the size of a city. Showing level of destructive power superior to Luffy G3. FACT
- In the same chapter, the owner of the statue, when shielding himself from Busoshoku Koka, said he was much more resistant than such a statue (the size of a city/big mountain) and that Zoro could not cut it. Zoro cut him. FACT
- Zoro is able to use Busoshoku Advanced Ryou since the beginning of Time Skip, as shown when mentioning his barrier against Hyouzou on Fishman Island. - Zoro didn't face anyone relevant before Kaido after Team Skip, it hasn't been long since the crew joined, there's no reason to believe that Zoro has increased his Douriki so much, the only difference is that he awakened his Haoshoku and on the very first day learned to imbue it.
- Zoro has several jumping and dodging techniques (Tourou Nagashi).
- It was a named attack. 3000 punds, 9 worlds or something. It's one of his strongest attacks. So again, no fact there.
Regardless, I agree that Zoro has high attack power, and hits above his tier. I can agree that Dresrossa Zoro had more attack power than Jinbe. How about the rest of the stats though? We aren't sure.
- Ok....sure. Zoro has high attack power. How does this prove that Jinbe is weaker than him, overall?
- Ok....maybe Zoro had advanced armament right from the getgo (it's unclear, but I lean on agreeing). How does this prove that Dresrossa Zoro is above Jinbe? Raizo has advanced armament, that makes him superior to Jinbe as well?
- He clearly has.
You think Dresrossa Zoro could defeat Doflamingo, the one who needed combined effort from Dresrossa Luffy and Law to take down? Plus, citizens and fodder buying time for Luffy?
Current Zoro can scar Kaido and is on or above YC1 level.
Clearly Zoro has had a massive improvement since Dresrossa.
- These have been displayed only in the raid. Zoro "flying" using slashes and all. So, I'll just assume it's something he developed in his training in Wano, since it was never shown before
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Holy shit, never though I'd be making posts arguing for Jinbe lmfao
Okay okay, Big Mom was as strong as ever. Her kids didn't comment that she was too thin for nothing, Oda made them say that for nothing in the manga, no no no, actually the fact that Big Mom was losing weight was making her stronger. Oh yeah, she took a "Kirin" that left a crater, which visually Oda made every effort to show.... THAT THE SECOND SHOCK OF ZEUS WAS MUCH MORE STRONG AND ATTACK POWER DOES NOT EXIST IN ONE PIECE, as she appeared much more damaged after the second
We saw Luffy being defeated by a blow by Kaido and Queen being slaughtered by Big Mom, in Sunny's feat, Jinbei surpassed them both, Oda is very unfair to the Sea God, Jinbei's bounty should be 4 billion lmao
What happened in Dressrosa was necessary for the script, Sabo could also defeat Doflamingo, but it was Luffy who did it. Fujitora is also obviously above Doflamingo, but it helped buy Mugiwara time.
It is the protagonist who must defeat the main villain. It always was and always will be.
I don’t think Zoro could break out of parasite though , I don’t think he has the sheer raw power of gear 4 in dressrosa
And luffy could solo doflamingo , he switched to gear 4 cause of bird cage
Well, Zoro without Haki achieved a level of destructive power similar to Haki's G3 over Pica with his 1080 Pound Ho technique. With Haki we saw that he was much more powerful by the feat in Pica completely shielded by Busou Koka (when he said he was much harder to cut than his city/big mountain statue). Luffy with G3 was unable to break through Doflamingo's threads, Luffy G4 was able to break through layers of awakened threads, thus showing a glaring difference between Luffy G3 and G4.
So maybe Zoro only matched attack potency in Asura Mode. Anyway, I gave my opinion that there is not much difference between Zoro Wano and Zoro Dressrosa and I explained the reasons. The only difference is that Zoro can use Haoshoku, but if you see the fight against King, Emma disturbed Zoro a lot during that fight. If anyone wants to think that Zoro became much more powerful in Wano like Law and Luffy, that's fine.
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If I can say why I believe Zoro already had more destructive power than the G4 even without Asura, it's because of Advanced Busoshoku. I'll leave a text here in spoiler:
I saw in some media people wondering what the hell Zoro used to drive King away in this scene.
this is called "Kekkai - 結 界" Barrier, Zoro used this technique for the first time in Fish Men's Island in his battle against Hyouzou, the only difference between the two uses is that against Hyouzou Zoro it creates a Busoshoku Haki barrier, against King the barrier created is Haoshoku Haki and so it is evidently much superior and we can also see the various black rays in the process, some people interpreted as the Clash of Haki, but note that Oda made a point of emphasizing that King wasn't coating his Blade with Busoshoku Haki at the time, instead opting to apply his sword with flames this time.
結界 - "Kekkai" (Barrie) - Zoro used this technique for the first time in Fish Men Island in his battle against Hyouzou, for some reason I'm not aware this scene was altered and cut off the moment when Zoro talks about the barrier , in my country's Scam they translated the Kaji from the Original as Kekkai, but I saw that in some Scans from USA this mention doesn't exist either, in case you want to check it is in chapter #642, in some Scans from USA the term Kekkai is also used. , this ability of Zoro to create barriers is also not specified in the Wiki, as an ability of Busoshoku Haki and Haoshoku Haki.
This moment is much forgotten by fans as the Anime distorts it completely and makes it look like Zoro cut all of Hyouzou's swords in the same place where the division of the blade's edge is, but no!! Hyouzou hits Zoro's barrier hard with all of his swords, but he can't get through because of the sorbing power difference between the 2 and then the blades split.
As Oda has talked about before in SBS, Zoro is very proficient in Busoshoku Haki so much so that he first used it on his own in Alabasta when he passed Wado Ichimonji through a Tree Leaf and didn't cut it (Practically applying what Koushirou and Hyogoro explained about how Ryou - "Flow" is used), he, unlike Sanji and Luffy, used the Emission first and then Mihawk taught him the stiffening technique, which in this case, Sanji and Luffy learned first and in this case Sanji doesn't know yet the Issuance and Luffy mastered it with the help of Hyogoro now in Wano's arc.
Other less noticeable moments are when Zoro talks about using Haki to block King's Explosion and also when Zoro momentarily stopped Kaido and Big Mom's "Hakai" that covered a large area of several kilometers, it wouldn't be possible to hold all that energy with just the physical, obviously it would need a barrier to hold it and keep it from hitting the other supernovas that are relatively far apart.
I consider this one of Zoro's best abilities and played a big role in his defense against massive blows, even if the blow is tens of times more powerful than Zoro, he could still survive because of this barrier, and now that she can too. be used with Haoshoku Haki, I wonder if Zoro could at least survive the Hakai, even if defeated. Efim hope that Oda brings this great utility more often.
Créditos: Bússolavertical
With all this information, I can say that Zoro did have more destructive power than Luffy G4 due to the difference between Ryou's compound attacks and the normal Busou Koka. Luffy in chapter 1001 using Ryou was able to damage Kaido, as commented by Yonko himself and suggested by the other supernovas. Even with dozens of hits from G4, Luffy was unable to deal that level of damage. Zoro also showed Ryou to attack, by launching a small flying slash with Haki on Monet face (Logia).
It’s hard to gauge Jinbei, as he hasn’t gone all out yet and always seem to have a special technique up his sleeve. He did trash WW without any difficulty, which makes him YC level to say the least. I’d say his experience and technique could make him Sanji’s equal at least.
Actually I think its well within the realm of possibility that Ace was crazy strong. There are no Haki visuals Pre-skip, and we didn't see the impact of Dai Enkai: Entei either, but it must be crazy strong, it's a miniature sun.
There's also the fact he fought Jinbe to a standstill, and here's the thing, Jinbe uses water. Pre-Skip One Piece was all about providing natural counters when it came to fighting Logias, so Ace's feat is to be ranked quite high.
The thing is, I think it is actually pretty silly to mix timelines in Tierlists. In Pre-Skip One Piece, Ace ranks indeed crazy high, maybe even Top 20, as Kaido and Big Mom only existed via name only and their crews didn't exist at all.
If you make a mixed timeline tierlist, and claim Ace ranks, let's say as the fifth strongest (just an example), then the actual meaning is not that Ace is the fifth strongest, but would be the fifth strongest, if he were alive - and that's a fallacy. Two years have passed. Maybe Ace would have continued to grow, but maybe he also would have broken his spine from falling down the stairs. Another strong character actually died from that, and it's not like we make Tierlists that have Mihawk = Kuina.
As some kind of frozen in time ghost, Ace will always look weaker in combined Pre-Skip, Post-Skip Tierlists, as all the young characters grew during the 2 years but for many there is no Pre-Skip version to place (ex. Ulti, Page One).
It’s hard to gauge Jinbei, as he hasn’t gone all out yet and always seem to have a special technique up his sleeve. He did trash WW without any difficulty, which makes him YC level to say the least. I’d say his experience and technique could make him Sanji’s equal at least.
Ehh, current Sanji is borderline YC1 level. No way Jinbe is that strong.
Pre Germa powerup Sanji though, I can see Jinbe >= that version of Sanji.
Plus, we kinda know how strong Jinbe is. He stalemated Ace, and Jinbe was ~40 years old then, i.e very close to his current level, if not right at his current level. Peak Ace maybe as strong or stronger than current Sanji, but the Ace before joining WB pirates, who got one shot by WB in his sleep? Don't think so
I don’t think Zoro could break out of parasite though , I don’t think he has the sheer raw power of gear 4 in dressrosa
And luffy could solo doflamingo , he switched to gear 4 cause of bird cage
What is this based on? Doflamingo himself said it: Gear 2 had speed but lacked power, while Gear 3 had power but lacked speed, so if he didn't use Gear 4, he would've lost to Doflamingo.
Not really overestimated, when Oda himself is doing it.
I think Wano arc raid especially has Oda working a lot with Toei, since he kinda had to rush through the fights and providing only outlines or outright offscreening them in the manga. Point being, how the fights who, likely has Oda's input in it, how he wants it to be etc.
Oda made Ace, two years prior to Marineford, stalemate Yamato.
And even in the manga, it didn't seem like he went all out (neither did Yamato tbf, she didn't use her hybrid form), but was just having fun. I don't see much inconsistency, except that the entire thing was offscreened
So, it's kinda the author himself doing the over-estimation lol.
Plus, everything we know of Ace from the novel, which the author has greenlit.
The issue with Ace is that, he was killed off before haki really became a thing and changed the entire dynamics of how fights in OP were executed.
He took two Ls, from top tier characters who also hard countered him. Which makes him look weak while glossing over or breezing through the episodes, but not really when we think of it in detail retrospectively.
That said, I think there are many characters who are weaker than admirals who can beat him.
Just naming commanders alone, those who we have somewhat of an understanding of their powers - Marco and King for sure beats him. Katakuri and Vista may beat him.
