One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Nie Li]

Agreed for the most part.

Sanji having Raid suit would've been much better than this though. It would've achieved the same thing.
Had great buildup over years, had some subplot behind it etc.

The bad part about Sanji evolving like this is that it kind of ruins the point of the WCI arc and we already had Franky as the crew's "cyborg". But well, it's not that bad.

Regardless, Sanji's regeneration when Queen squeezed him in his "snake form" was Wolverine-like and he was just like "oh, just like my siblings".

Are Ichiji and Niji also supposed to regenerate like that from such injuries? If so, they're much more dangerous than I thought.

 

[MakMatik]

I don't have much to add to the ZvS part since as you say here we are all just guessing, but I want to comment something regarding Sanji's durability.

It is true that we don't know the upper limits of Sanji's durability, that is very true. In fact, even without the exoskeleton, we didn't know the upper limit of his CoA durability but we can estimate it to be inferior to King's YC1 CoA, since Sanji thought he would have died without his suit when King divebombed him into the ground beak-first.

Now, we also know that some characters (King with the flames on his back, and very likely Jozu) have sturdier bodies than Kaido himself through their race and/or DF powers. King especifically tanked attacks from Zoro like they were nothing even when Zoro was using CoC. Meanwhile, Kaido was hurt (even if of course very lightly) while in dragon form by Zoro's Tatsumaki when Zoro was still barely taping into his CoC. A full-powered CoC tatsumaki would reasonably deal more damage even if it would of course also be more draining to Zoro.

So the question here is: do we assume Sanji with haki + exoskeleton is sturdier than dragon Kaido? Because if not, he wouldn't come unscathed from a Tatsumaki.

Not to say he can't see it coming with CoO and stay away from it. It's not like Sanji is out of options, I'm merely debating his durability now.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now, regarding what you said about Sanji's power.

I do agree that I like it more when power ups are earned through some form of training rather than just "unlocked out of nowhere" but when has Sanji ever trained for his powerups in the series?

Spoiler: Sanji's curriculum so far

Sanji went from having trouble with Mr.2, to not having any major fight through which to push himself and evolve for two arcs, and then suddenly, like three arcs later, there he was still being comparable to Zoro (who busted his ass training) on Enies Lobby where he was kicking Jyabura around with mild difficulty even before somehow coming up with Diable Jambe. Even his two year time skip as far as the manga was concerned involved more running around than anything else, though at least the anime did expand on that making up those Okama Kenpo challenges. And after the timeskip more of the same: he barely holds up against Vergo, doesn't get a fight in Dressrosa, no proper fight in WCI either, and then suddenly he's kicking an All-Star around with no training inbetween.

So I'd say his new power-up is actually the most reasonable/justified one he's got in the series.

Perhaps tank is the wrong word. He wouldn't come come out unscathed but I don't think it would finish him. You're right that there are also the others ways he could handle it.

You're right that this would technically be his most explained power up. I guess it comes down to how one see's his portrayal in the NW. For me at least, there were glimpses of brilliance but no payoff if you get what I mean.

The bad part about Sanji evolving like this is that it kind of ruins the point of the WCI arc and we already had Franky as the crew's "cyborg". But well, it's not that bad.

Regardless, Sanji's regeneration when Queen squeezed him in his "snake form" was Wolverine-like and he was just like "oh, just like my siblings".

Are Ichiji and Niji also supposed to regenerate like that from such injuries? If so, they're much more dangerous than I thought.

The regeneration is a huge aspect. I'm not sure if.it was that OP because that's when his genes were fully awakening or if it will still be OP post wano. The closest thing I can remember from the -ji siblings is Yonji after Sanji mashed his face in, but he needed a hydraulic press to help him recover. Maybe Sanji's strength at this stage made his exo & recovery stronger than if he had had them since the beginning.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 22, 2022, Original Post Date: Mar 22, 2022 ---

Just reread 840. Niji did just crack his face back into place.

 

[Nie Li]

Sanji even dented Niji's head, but it returned to normal like it was plastic. Anyway, Katakuri defeated Ichiji in seconds. Sanji is much stronger than his brothers, I guess they are at best a Tobiroppo level.

I think with the dent thing you're referring to Yonji. The guy seemed to need help to recover from it even if it was quick and had no lasting effects. Niji just got a dislocated jaw from Sanji and putting that back in isn't that impressive. None of that made me think they could go full Wolverine.

Regarding the Katakuri incident, didn't Ichiji also bounce back from the offscreen beating in seconds and continue actively fighting and running throughout the rest of the arc? I used to think he took barely any damage from Katakuri but now I think he just regenerated whatever Katakuri did to him.

I don't doubt Sanji's stronger than his siblings now and I don't think any Vinsmoke can defeat Katakuri but I really don't see Ichiji and Niji as being much weaker and taking this kind of regeneration into account really puts into perspective how much they can last in a fight. And the longer one can last in a fight, the more time he has to deal out damage and possibly win. It's a great battle trait. Just think of Marco and King: they're very strong overall but where they shine is in just how much punishment they can take (either by tanking anything like King or by regenerating anything like Marco). If we take those traits out, King's and Marco's other stats aren't that special.

Yonji and Reiju do seem to be on a lower tier than them (although Reiju might have a bit of "hax" with her poison) but even them should go up a little in the power ladder if they can regenerate like this.

And as I was writing this I saw MakMatik's last post so I'll quote it as it relates directly to the topic.

The regeneration is a huge aspect. I'm not sure if.it was that OP because that's when his genes were fully awakening or if it will still be OP post wano. The closest thing I can remember from the -ji siblings is Yonji after Sanji mashed his face in, but he needed a hydraulic press to help him recover. Maybe Sanji's strength at this stage made his exo & recovery stronger than if he had had them since the beginning.

If you're right and his regeneration won't be this OP in the long run or if it's somehow unique to Sanji then my "hypothesis" regarding his siblings will become void. However, it did pick my attention how Sanji was specifically reminded of his siblings bodies when he insta-regenerated his bones.

There are two options:
- It can be that the strongest siblings (perhaps not Yonji) have that level of regeneration
- Or Sanji was simply reminded of their regeneration quirks even though what he was going through was on a completely different scale from what they're capable from.

We will see. I bet we will see more of his brothers in the final war arc, even if they do nothing major.

 

[really_jonny]

They are actually much resistant than they look. Although Ichiji was defeated in seconds by Katakuri, a short time later he was active. Yonji and Niji were crushed(?) by Big Mom and shortly afterwards were active carrying their father. I don't believe Yonji is inferior, he is equally respected, just clearly has a weaker skill.
Perhaps the head is more difficult to heal if it is badly crushed.

Anyway, in my opinion Sanji is superior even in genetic abilities. He is tougher, has better regeneration, has 3 elements (fire, electricity and explosion) and is invisible.

 

[MakMatik]

I think with the dent thing you're referring to Yonji. The guy seemed to need help to recover from it even if it was quick and had no lasting effects. Niji just got a dislocated jaw from Sanji and putting that back in isn't that impressive. None of that made me think they could go full Wolverine.

Regarding the Katakuri incident, didn't Ichiji also bounce back from the offscreen beating in seconds and continue actively fighting and running throughout the rest of the arc? I used to think he took barely any damage from Katakuri but now I think he just regenerated whatever Katakuri did to him.

I don't doubt Sanji's stronger than his siblings now and I don't think any Vinsmoke can defeat Katakuri but I really don't see Ichiji and Niji as being much weaker and taking this kind of regeneration into account really puts into perspective how much they can last in a fight. And the longer one can last in a fight, the more time he has to deal out damage and possibly win. It's a great battle trait. Just think of Marco and King: they're very strong overall but where they shine is in just how much punishment they can take (either by tanking anything like King or by regenerating anything like Marco). If we take those traits out, King's and Marco's other stats aren't that special.

Yonji and Reiju do seem to be on a lower tier than them (although Reiju might have a bit of "hax" with her poison) but even them should go up a little in the power ladder if they can regenerate like this.

And as I was writing this I saw MakMatik's last post so I'll quote it as it relates directly to the topic.

If you're right and his regeneration won't be this OP in the long run or if it's somehow unique to Sanji then my "hypothesis" regarding his siblings will become void. However, it did pick my attention how Sanji was specifically reminded of his siblings bodies when he insta-regenerated his bones.

There are two options:
- It can be that the strongest siblings (perhaps not Yonji) have that level of regeneration
- Or Sanji was simply reminded of their regeneration quirks even though what he was going through was on a completely different scale from what they're capable from.

We will see. I bet we will see more of his brothers in the final war arc, even if they do nothing major.

Yeah. They will probably come back to the main story eventually. If you consider that Sanji is awake this chapter, that may be as a result of the healing. If his body doesn't auto heal like against Queen he'll just have to stick himself back into place. I just re read the end of WCI and they do bounce back real quick.

 

[grey matter]

I think that Sanji's healing was a one time thing. When his biology was changing, his body was probably reconstructing itself over and over again.
So, in this process, Sanji was healing as well.

But once it was complete, his body is now permanently faster and "harder" (similar to his brothers), but it probably won't be able to heal itself anymore since no more changes are to be made.
Him not healing himself against Queen kinda indicates that.

But, another thing I noticed was Sanji's "eyebrows" changing direction.
IIRC it resembled his brothers, and now it reverted back.

Does that mean his entire biology reverted back to how it used to be? If yes, maybe this change is something that would keep happening whenever Sanji gets in trouble. A second wind, I suppose.
In this case, whenever he's in trouble, his Germa genes will activate, start restructuring his body and he'll heal.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Debatable IMO.

Beginning of rooftop, it seemed to me like Zoro was hitting harder.

So I assume the same could be the case once both got advanced Conqueror's as well.

Now, an argument could be made that Luffy is a better Conqueror than Zoro, hence advanced Conqueror's provides a bigger boost in attack power to Luffy. Which I agree is true. So things aren't quite clear.

There is also Zoro scarring Kaido with his initial burst of advanced Conqueror's haki. Current Zoro with should be able to hit harder

I suppose we can agree that they're close in attack power?

That's not how it works. Luffy was arguably hitting harder regardless but Luffy has significantly stronger Hao than Zoro. I have no reason to believe that Zoro's hao is better than chapter 1010 Luffy's. Luffy's hao has increased twice since then.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 23, 2022, Original Post Date: Mar 23, 2022 ---

Category	Luffy	Zoro
Attack Power	10	7.5
Speed	10	6.5
Durability	9.0	8.0
Stamina	9.0	8.5
Skill	9.0	9.0
Haki	9.5	7.0
Total	56.5	46.5

 

[grey matter]

That's not how it works. Luffy was arguably hitting harder regardless but Luffy has significantly stronger Hao than Zoro. I have no reason to believe that Zoro's hao is better than chapter 1010 Luffy's. Luffy's hao has increased twice since then.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 23, 2022, Original Post Date: Mar 23, 2022 ---

Category	Luffy	Zoro
Attack Power	10	7.5
Speed	10	6.5
Durability	9.0	8.0
Stamina	9.0	8.5
Skill	9.0	9.0
Haki	9.5	7.0
Total	56.5	46.5

Yeah, I've changed my mind. I have Zoro's attack power > 1010 Luffy, but marginally below 1042 Luffy.
Reasoning:
I think while scarring Kaido with his initial burst of conqueror's haki, Zoro showed attack power >= 1010 Luffy. Current Zoro knows he's a conqueror and can use conqueror's haki with low level of control. This Zoro should hit considerably higher than 1010 Zoro who accidentally used conqueror's haki.
1042 Luffy's conqueror's haki can split sky and has attack power somewhat comparable to Kaido's, it was a mistake for me to consider current Zoro's attack power above

Esp with how spoilers are looking, not putting Zoro above current Luffy in attack power for sure, until he proves otherwise.

But one thing to note is that, even though current Zoro has in no way conqueror's haki superior or even comparable to 1010 Luffy, Zoro probably "supplies" comparable conqueror's haki per attack. More than what he would otherwise do, because of Enma's demand. This is why he runs out of haki fast, but also hits hard.

If 1042 Luffy's attack power is 10, I put current Zoro at 9.5, 1010 Zoro at 9, 1010 Luffy at 8.5, 1000 Zoro at 7.5, 1000 Luffy at 7

Interesting how we see stats overall though.
I put Zoro's attack power relatively higher, but overall I put him relatively slightly lower than you did.

 

[really_jonny]

Luffy was already able to injure Kaido before Haoshoku advanced. Zoro before advanced Haoshoku was unable to harm King, and even when King was vulnerable he was unable to deal considerable damage. Already Zoro with Advanced Haoshoku completely dominated, defeated King IN HIS DEFENSE MODE with a single attack, thus showing a gigantic difference, greater than Luffy before using Haoshoku. Besides, Zoro's cut on Kaido was the only one he's received so far that left a scar. If Kaido won, the only mark left on him was Zoro's slash, so it was the most damage from one hit Kaido took.

In short, the difference Zoro showed before and after overpowering Haoshoku is bigger than Luffy.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Luffy was already able to injure Kaido before Haoshoku advanced. Zoro before advanced Haoshoku was unable to harm King, and even when King was vulnerable he was unable to deal considerable damage. Already Zoro with Advanced Haoshoku completely dominated, defeated King IN HIS DEFENSE MODE with a single attack, thus showing a gigantic difference, greater than Luffy before using Haoshoku. Besides, Zoro's cut on Kaido was the only one he's received so far that left a scar. If Kaido won, the only mark left on him was Zoro's slash, so it was the most damage from one hit Kaido took.

In short, the difference Zoro showed before and after overpowering Haoshoku is bigger than Luffy.

We just ignoring the big ass throbbing scar that aches till this day that oden gave kaido ?

 

[really_jonny]

@Lord Traffy Law

Zoro's scar wasn't completely on top of Oden's scar. A new one was left over him to the left of his body.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Yeah, I've changed my mind. I have Zoro's attack power > 1010 Luffy, but marginally below 1042 Luffy.
Reasoning:
I think while scarring Kaido with his initial burst of conqueror's haki, Zoro showed attack power >= 1010 Luffy. Current Zoro knows he's a conqueror and can use conqueror's haki with low level of control. This Zoro should hit considerably higher than 1010 Zoro who accidentally used conqueror's haki.
1042 Luffy's conqueror's haki can split sky and has attack power somewhat comparable to Kaido's, it was a mistake for me to consider current Zoro's attack power above

Esp with how spoilers are looking, not putting Zoro above current Luffy in attack power for sure, until he proves otherwise.

But one thing to note is that, even though current Zoro has in no way conqueror's haki superior or even comparable to 1010 Luffy, Zoro probably "supplies" comparable conqueror's haki per attack. More than what he would otherwise do, because of Enma's demand. This is why he runs out of haki fast, but also hits hard.

If 1042 Luffy's attack power is 10, I put current Zoro at 9.5, 1010 Zoro at 9, 1010 Luffy at 8.5, 1000 Zoro at 7.5, 1000 Luffy at 7

Interesting how we see stats overall though.
I put Zoro's attack power relatively higher, but overall I put him relatively slightly lower than you did.

When he scarred Kaido, Zoro lamented over the fact he couldn't even knock Kaido down...And Luffy immediately gets up and knocks Kaido on his ass. Not to mention, Kaido didn't seem too impressed with Zoro being able to scar him. It's blown out of proportion because Oden did the same thing, though the narrative was leaning towards Oden possessing the power to beat Kaido, something Zoro can't do. There's absolutely no reason to think that current Zoro hits harder than he did in 1010; in fact, 1010 Zoro actively tried to use his full power while Zoro against King simply stopped resisting his sword.

I'm not putting Zoro on the level of Luffy who was making Kaido spit up blood while just in base and G2, the gap gets more ridiculous when you start to factor in things like Boundman which is an enormous boost in raw power, Zoro doesn't compare. Luffy is just that much above his crew, I'd do the same in regards to Sanji vs Luffy in speed

 

[really_jonny]

The Scabbards managed to take down Kaido, and even then their combined attack was not at the level of Zoro's Ashura (which by the way is not even a high level of Haoshoku that Zoro possesses now, with big lightning bolts and green flames on his swords).

 

[Crimson Ice]

The Scabbards managed to take down Kaido, and even then their combined attack was not at the level of Zoro's Ashura (which by the way is not even a high level of Haoshoku that Zoro possesses now, with big lightning bolts and green flames on his swords).

Scabbards pinned Kaido down to the floor when attacking him. Zoro was talking about the pure force of his blow knocking Kiado down, and that's what Luffy did.

 

[XXGenesis]

Zoro’s scar left in Kaido wasn’t deeper than Oden’s Scar…

Kaido is point blank a Beast; Oden with how he used his swords and faired up against WB & Roger is much stronger than Zoro.

Luffy has surpass all of that with the damage he was doing to Kaido with his ACoC attacks.

So no I wouldn’t compare Zoro’s power or Haki to Luffy’s at all.

 

[really_jonny]

I don't know where you guys get that Luffy's attacks are more powerful using takedown as an argument (which Scabbards could do) and the skies split (that's just a collision effect of two COCs). For Kaido, Luffy's punches progressed from negligible to ordinary punches (ordinary punches deal damage). It's obvious that Luffy's punches have a knockdown effect, as they are impactful. It's easier to get knocked down by a punch than by a horizontal cut or even a knife perforation, but obviously the knife does a lot more damage. They're also ignoring what I said about the effects of Zoro's attacks on King before and after using En-You Haoshoku, as his attacks without Haoshoku were already noticed by Big Mom as a threat. Anyway, Luffy is superior to Zoro in everything except the ability to deal damage, physical strength is obvious that Luffy has more.

Furthermore, Zoro's Haoshoku has developed a lot more since then. Imagine an En-You Kyotoryu now.

Luffy's Haoshoku follows the same, he just has better control not to waste more Haki than necessary.

Luffy has surpass all of that with the damage he was doing to Kaido with his ACoC attacks.

What damage man, Kaido's expressions are always the same for every attack he takes, Haoshoku hasn't changed that. If Luffy wasn't revived now, a few days would pass, Kaido fully recovered would only have a mark left in this battle and it wouldn't be the shape of Luffy's punches.

Anyway, I've said all I have to say. If you guys don't agree, fine, in a manga discussion there is no owner of the truth.

 

[McNuss]

The bad part about Sanji evolving like this is that it kind of ruins the point of the WCI arc and we already had Franky as the crew's "cyborg". But well, it's not that bad.

No, the bad part is that Germa are the Nazis. Everyone hates them, Sanji, and Law, Drake...

Like what kind of image is this, here be my Nazi Superpower..

 

[Core D. Roy]

What damage man, Kaido's expressions are always the same for every attack he takes,

Much like the visual representation of Zoro's attacks are always the same for every big attack he makes.

Zoro scarred Kaidou, but he didn't make him fall down. It was a purposeful distinction on Oda's part to explicitly put that in the dialogue and contrast it directly with how Luffy's attacks effect him.

 

[really_jonny]

Okay guys. Zoro is many levels below Luffy. Its most powerful blow is weaker than a simple punch from Luffy in his base form. Zoro is slower and doesn't have Advanced Kenbunshoku. Zoro's cuts are like mere scratches on Luffy who has long taken several more powerful blows than Zoro's most powerful blow. Luffy would beat Zoro with a single hit as well (since Luffy's single basic punch is stronger than Zoro's most powerful attack). Zoro to Luffy is like Krillin to Goku. Luffy doesn't even need to use the Gomu Gomu no Mi against Zoro using En-You Kyotoryu Ashura. I believe it would take 9 Zoros and 10 Sanjis to force Luffy to at least use his Devil Fruit powers, and twice that to force Luffy to use his marches. Right?

 

[Nie Li]

No, the bad part is that Germa are the Nazis. Everyone hates them, Sanji, and Law, Drake...

Like what kind of image is this, here be my Nazi Superpower..

Well, outside of the story I loved the Germa in general even though they're Nazi Power Rangers. lol

Instory, they may be hated, but this is just the reverse of Tom building Oro Jackson: "Who cares what they used it for? Be it evil or not? What matters is to be proud of your creation".

Here it's: "Who cares who created it? What matters is what you make out of those powers and what you use them for".