Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
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It's just an example, yamato handle the bomb is just some scenario so she had something to do. Or just give king/queen to marco from the start if we remove 1 of zoro/sanji, just handle 1 of them not king & queen together.
Whatever it is, what I want to tell you, if we remove queen/king or sanji/zoro it's same, if you remove king you lack peoples to handle strong enemy, if you remove queen you also lack people to handle strong enemy, remove zoro lack people to handle king, remove sanji lack people to handle queen, same consequence in same margins. But remove kaido/luffy is definitely different case. That's why I said you can't compare it.
Just like when wb death, wb's remnants automatically became death meat in marineford till shanks join. It's still be a big blow when it was ace who died, but not as great as when you remove wb. And when ace died, as long as wb still around, they will not be death meat even without shanks, wb still can help them to run from battlefield.
Or when they remove sanji in dressrosa, they still doing well. Remove zoro in wci arc, they still can doing well. Althought if they keep zoro in wci or keep sanji in dressrosa it will became more easy. But they will became death meat if it was luffy who you remove from dressrosa/wci.
It's not specifically about power levels alone, but it will definitely relate. Simply put if we take every action & feats from every characters to point/score, like in video game, beat last boss will give you highest score.
Beat strong enemy also has a good score, but you can't compare it with score from last boss.
And you also can't compare score from beat fodder to score from beat strong enemy
Unless you also collect another score from another action & enough to keep up with the score from beat strong enemy.
For example, definitely tama feats surpass franky, but I think it's still debatable if you compare it to jinbe. Althought franky & jinbe beat enemy at same level, jinbe did another big feats, he save everyone from became grilled meat.
So to make it simple, u can just count every feats king & queen had in onigashima.
If it's like you said, only count their feats in raid situation, as long as I remember each of them didn't had any specific or great feats at all & just end up in failure, so I think they're even.
They didn't beat zoro/sanji
King failed to guard/kill momo, queen failed to kill tama.
Etc.
As long as I remember their only success in onigashima was beat marco. But not really beat him, marco can still bother kaido & help everyone, so I won't count it as feats, even if we count it, they did it together.
But if we count outside onigashima/raid, queen had more feats than king
This issue with this strategy is the fact that there was no way for Queen to limit the infected to just the Pleasures. The Ice Oni would have gone and infected Gifters and Pleasures throughout Onigashima along with the Samurai. Heck even mid level fighters like Tobi Roppo could have easily been infected too. And the longer the Ice Oni stayed around the higher the chances that even the strongest of fighters would have been infected. We saw that even the Plague physically affects people as strong as Luffy.
Most likely queen actually has a way to prevent it affect important person, it's not like he will just left kaido to death if he get affected by his virus (althought it's mostly impossible), jack (who seems like has a good relationship with queen), or even if queen himself affected by it.
Just like in zou, jack has a way so the poisonous gas only affected minks. As the creators, queen must be more clever & also can handle it properly.
The case is, it's just exactly like he said, he just feel everyone at live floor is worthless subordinate which can easily replaced any time. Same concept with king, he easily kill his subordinate just bcs they see his face, but I don't think he will do that if it was gifyers/tobbi roppo who see it, queen even mock him in front of his face & everyone face, just imagine if it was pleasures/waiters who did that.
So, just like that, queen will also act different if it was gifters, tobbi roppo, jack, or even kaido who get caught by his virus, and he has solution for it (but I don't think he will help king unless kaido order him )
Anyway, he already has a antidote. It's not like he really only has 1 of it, why he giveaway it if it's really the only 1 instead of keep it for himself. Even if he didn't have it anymore, he already know the formula, he can create it way faster than chopper who still need to find out the formula, he is also a genius afterall, have worked with judge & vegapunk.
I wouldn't even be surprised if he actually had a virus counterpart to make someone immune to his viruses, and most likely he already had used it on himself, he already modified all of his body anyway, it will be odd if he didn't make his body immune to his viruses when he like playing with viruses, and as long as queen felt it necessary, she would also apply it to others.
I'd be more impressed by the upgrade if she had soloed a Tobi like Franky did (while heavily outnumbered by beasts pirates) but it's definitely a big power up mostly to her technical fighting style so it's hard to rate for me: I can see her taking down Franky-level opponents by outsmarting them like she did to Kalifa back in the day (who was otherwise her clear superior).
I feel very bad for Usopp. He didn't get any love at all in such an important battle. I hope his moment is being saved for helping against the WG now if they still come.
I'd be more impressed by the upgrade if she had soloed a Tobi like Franky did (while heavily outnumbered by beasts pirates) but it's definitely a big power up mostly to her technical fighting style so it's hard to rate for me: I can see her taking down Franky-level opponents by outsmarting them like she did to Kalifa back in the day (who was otherwise her clear superior).
I feel very bad for Usopp. He didn't get any love at all in such an important battle. I hope his moment is being saved for helping against the WG now if they still come.
Usopp got haki in Dressrosa, and he hasn't been able to show it off at all ever since. He really was sidelined this arc. I wish he and Nami beat Page One and Ulti on their own. I'd argue that the power difference between Usopp and Page 1 is less than the difference between Usopp and the fishmen he beat. He has real weapons and haki now. Back then he had rubber bands, a mallet, and some hot sauce, and he'd never really had his own fight that he won on his own at the time, he was a rookie.
Most likely queen actually has a way to prevent it affect important person, it's not like he will just left kaido to death if he get affected by his virus (althought it's mostly impossible), jack (who seems like has a good relationship with queen), or even if queen himself affected by it.
Just like in zou, jack has a way so the poisonous gas only affected minks. As the creators, queen must be more clever & also can handle it properly.
The case is, it's just exactly like he said, he just feel everyone at live floor is worthless subordinate which can easily replaced any time. Same concept with king, he easily kill his subordinate just bcs they see his face, but I don't think he will do that if it was gifyers/tobbi roppo who see it, queen even mock him in front of his face & everyone face, just imagine if it was pleasures/waiters who did that.
So, just like that, queen will also act different if it was gifters, tobbi roppo, jack, or even kaido who get caught by his virus, and he has solution for it (but I don't think he will help king unless kaido order him )
Anyway, he already has a antidote. It's not like he really only has 1 of it, why he giveaway it if it's really the only 1 instead of keep it for himself. Even if he didn't have it anymore, he already know the formula, he can create it way faster than chopper who still need to find out the formula, he is also a genius afterall, have worked with judge & vegapunk.
I wouldn't even be surprised if he actually had a virus counterpart to make someone immune to his viruses, and most likely he already had used it on himself, he already modified all of his body anyway, it will be odd if he didn't make his body immune to his viruses when he like playing with viruses, and as long as queen felt it necessary, she would also apply it to others.
Yes I agree that I don't think Queen would have let it kill himself or people like King/Jack/Kaido. He definitely has an antidote to the virus but it must be administered to the individual. He never showed us anything like Choppers antidote that actually is itself a virus that can be aerosolized.
I personally don't have as much of an issue with Queen not caring about his soldiers since this is not unique to him and matches up the behavior of many pirates we've seen. I just don't think the virus was a smart move since:
Aside from plot, Queen had no way to contain the virus to the live floor. This means he risked killing the Beast Pirates 30k soldiers on Onigashima in order to kill just 5k Samurai soldiers. This was a short sighted decision that could have cost them
Queen didn't have any known method of mass curing people. We can't just assume he did because he's a scientist. In fact if he had this technology it would have been more effective for him to use this tech to spread the virus in the first place.
Also if he did have a method, it would need to only work for the Beast Pirates soldiers for it to be an advantage to him. Otherwise he'd be curing everyone like Chopper did
I don't think Queen could inoculate/vaccinate soldiers from his diseases in advance. If he could why didn't he?
This would be similar to how Jack on Zou had all his soldiers wear the gas masks before releasing the poison. The absence of this targeting by Queen is what makes him seem foolish compared to Jack.
I'm not arguing that Queen's bioweapons are inherently flawed, just the way Queen uses them is flawed/problematic. For example a smart way to use his weapon by the Beast pirates would have been to:
Have all the Beast pirates retreat from Onigashima (or as many of them as possible) into boats back into the Sea
Keep only the really strong BP members (All Stars, Headliners, Tobi Roppo, Numbers, etc) on Onigashima to keep the Samurai/Pirate/Mink alliance stuck on the island
Once most of the BP are on boats, have Kaido lift the island into the sky
Once the island is in the sky release all of Queen's bio weapons and let them reek havoc
If they had done something like the above, using the virus are advantageous since they decimate your enemies. The way Queen used it was let me risk 30k soldiers to kill 5k soldiers which made no sense. If the Samurai used the weapon it would make more sense since it would have been risking 5k soldiers to kill 30k soldiers.
For destructive power only, I will even put her above jinbe (at least till we see more of his technique, it's not like he already go all out), or even put her above sanji, technically it's just like enel lighting attack, right? It's crazy destructive
But over all power, I still will not put her that high, she didn't has speed & durability. Robin can easily unarmed her, franky can just shoot his laser (laser way faster than lighting/thunder).
I think it will still became,
Luffy > zoro >= sanji > jinbe > brook >= franky > robin > chopper >= nami > usopp
And till end of the series I think it will still became like that. Just like when oda said he want to make usopp to always became the weakest. And just like the case of monster trio who will always became the strongest no matter who joins (just like jinbe case), I think chopper, nami, usopp will always be the weakest.
Listening to KOL argue to the death that Sanji is stronger than Yamato actually hurt my brain.
His argument being Ifrit Jambe is stronger than Ikouku Sovereignty and Boro Breath .
Also question, why do people bring up the fact that Sanji's flames are blue when using Ifrit Jambe? Was it stated somewhere that I missed?
Listening to KOL argue to the death that Sanji is stronger than Yamato actually hurt my brain.
His argument being Ifrit Jambe is stronger than Ikouku Sovereignty and Boro Breath .
Also question, why do people bring up the fact that Sanji's flames are blue when using Ifrit Jambe? Was it stated somewhere that I missed?
Man y'all really be arguing about Queen and his ice oni plan. Lol that happened last year why are you discussing it now, and also it's not even a power level discussion related. Anyways let's drop it. Aside from the fact that I thought it was a stupid plot device.
Honestly, I was expecting much much more from the Beasts Pirates in terms of raw strength, but they were underwhelming. I was expecting from the YCs city busting attacks. The numbers were disappointing and a waste of panels, they only served to show case that Luffy could one hit k.o. a Number in gear 4. Not impressed. I would have been impressed if it was Nami and Usopp who had solo'ed a Number or together.
Nami, Brook, and Usopp deserved their own battles, not Cat or Lion or Izo.
Power levels were thrown out the window in the Raid.
We didn't get to see the full extent of Jack's power. Sasaki was a joke even the Fukuro vs Franky fight was hilarious but filled with tension and good fighting. Otama should have not been there.
Listening to KOL argue to the death that Sanji is stronger than Yamato actually hurt my brain.
His argument being Ifrit Jambe is stronger than Ikouku Sovereignty and Boro Breath .
Listening to KOL argue to the death that Sanji is stronger than Yamato actually hurt my brain.
His argument being Ifrit Jambe is stronger than Ikouku Sovereignty and Boro Breath .
Also question, why do people bring up the fact that Sanji's flames are blue when using Ifrit Jambe? Was it stated somewhere that I missed?
Listening to KOL argue to the death that Sanji is stronger than Yamato actually hurt my brain.
His argument being Ifrit Jambe is stronger than Ikouku Sovereignty and Boro Breath .
Also question, why do people bring up the fact that Sanji's flames are blue when using Ifrit Jambe? Was it stated somewhere that I missed?
Kaido can fight against multiple commander-level characters and even one-shot them... and since Yamato fought Kaido one-on-one for some time, I suspect he can do something similar.
So I think Yamato could beat Zoro and Sanji together.
Yes this was Queen's plan. I just don't think it made any sense since there was no way of physically keeping the Ice Oni on the live floor, which was my problem with it all.
The Ice Oni plan was dumb and idiotic, but it was needed because that was the only way to make Chopper contribute and be relevant. He is outclassed by the Tobi Roppo, Oda had to make something to make him shine.
As people said, had Queen stayed away from the Ice Oni plan, the Beast Pirates fodders would've overwhelmed the samurais even with Tama's help.
Kaido can fight against multiple commander-level characters and even one-shot them... and since Yamato fought Kaido one-on-one for some time, I suspect he can do something similar.
So I think Yamato could beat Zoro and Sanji together.
What? She 1v2 them? No way lol.
Either of them alone is giving her a tough fight.
I say Yamato vs Zoro can go either way.
Yamato vs Sanji is a high diff win for Yamato.
About Yamato 1v1 Kaido for a while. Yeah she did.
But the supernova and Sanji grew a lot in PL as well, since the start of the raid.
Kid went from struggling with Apoo, to holding his own against BM. Law also 1v1'd BM for the duration of Killer vs Hawkins.
Point is to demonstrate the massive jump in PL that happened during the raid. It's easier to demonstrate with these two, who fought and "defeated" BM
Man y'all really be arguing about Queen and his ice oni plan. Lol that happened last year why are you discussing it now, and also it's not even a power level discussion related. Anyways let's drop it. Aside from the fact that I thought it was a stupid plot device.
Honestly, I was expecting much much more from the Beasts Pirates in terms of raw strength, but they were underwhelming. I was expecting from the YCs city busting attacks. The numbers were disappointing and a waste of panels, they only served to show case that Luffy could one hit k.o. a Number in gear 4. Not impressed. I would have been impressed if it was Nami and Usopp who had solo'ed a Number or together.
Nami, Brook, and Usopp deserved their own battles, not Cat or Lion or Izo.
Power levels were thrown out the window in the Raid.
We didn't get to see the full extent of Jack's power. Sasaki was a joke even the Fukuro vs Franky fight was hilarious but filled with tension and good fighting. Otama should have not been there.
Bro, how can you complain about power levels being thrown out of the window (which I 100% agree with), but then complain about Nami and Ussop not having their own fights?
They are complete fodders, in a straight up fight any Tobiroppo can one shot them within a second.
Not everyone needs to be strong in 1v1 combat.
They are good supports, and it would be perfectly fine to have them fulfill that role. Deal damage through distraction, create openings etc.
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