Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.
It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.
For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.
As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.
This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.
Bro, how can you complain about power levels being thrown out of the window (which I 100% agree with), but then complain about Nami and Ussop not having their own fights?
They are complete fodders, in a straight up fight any Tobiroppo can one shot them within a second.
Not everyone needs to be strong in 1v1 combat.
They are good supports, and it would be perfectly fine to have them fulfill that role. Deal damage through distraction, create openings etc.
They could still have their own fights and possibly win. Them winning over the F6 would definitely be power levels thrown out the window, I understand that part. Yet Nami and Usopp's fights have kinda always been out of power level sense. Nami was not stronger than Kalifa or Ms. Doublefinger, just like Usopp was not stronger than Mr. 4 and Ms. Groundhog Day or stronger than the Fishman. Yet somehow Oda made sense of their fights.
While I would have preferred Oda had stuck with Nami vs Ulti and Usopp vs Page One , I would have accepted that final outcome, because I know Oda would have made their wins somewhat sensible. Nami vs Ulti seemed like an asspull and not entirely Nami's win, though. Oda could have handled that better.
But like I mentioned they could have still shined in their moments, yet Oda decided for Usopp to do almost nothing.
The fact that Oda in the past decade has decided to neglect some of the weaker straw hats in lieu of non-shp supporting characters, made the series lose appeal to me. I could care less of the Grand fleet or 9RS or samurai. I would prefer ALL of the SHPs show off their skills and be pushed to their limits during the climax fights.
Out of all of the F6, Ulti was seen as the most tenacious and ferocious one, the rest only had their looks that made them powerful, but Ulti was straight fighter. How would we rank the Beasts Pirates, to include the Supernova allied? King > Queen > Jack > WW > Drake > Sasaki > Ulti > Page One > BM > Apoo > Hawkins
Hmmm, Zeus was nerfed, right? Nami herself said she could take down Ulti because she was weakened after Big Mom's attack. I think Franky's lasers could do more than that...
What? She 1v2 them? No way lol.
Either of them alone is giving her a tough fight.
I say Yamato vs Zoro can go either way.
Yamato vs Sanji is a high diff win for Yamato.
About Yamato 1v1 Kaido for a while. Yeah she did.
But the supernova and Sanji grew a lot in PL as well, since the start of the raid.
Kid went from struggling with Apoo, to holding his own against BM. Law also 1v1'd BM for the duration of Killer vs Hawkins.
Point is to demonstrate the massive jump in PL that happened during the raid. It's easier to demonstrate with these two, who fought and "defeated" BM
They could still have their own fights and possibly win. Them winning over the F6 would definitely be power levels thrown out the window, I understand that part. Yet Nami and Usopp's fights have kinda always been out of power level sense. Nami was not stronger than Kalifa or Ms. Doublefinger, just like Usopp was not stronger than Mr. 4 and Ms. Groundhog Day or stronger than the Fishman. Yet somehow Oda made sense of their fights.
While I would have preferred Oda had stuck with Nami vs Ulti and Usopp vs Page One , I would have accepted that final outcome, because I know Oda would have made their wins somewhat sensible. Nami vs Ulti seemed like an asspull and not entirely Nami's win, though. Oda could have handled that better.
But like I mentioned they could have still shined in their moments, yet Oda decided for Usopp to do almost nothing.
The fact that Oda in the past decade has decided to neglect some of the weaker straw hats in lieu of non-shp supporting characters, made the series lose appeal to me. I could care less of the Grand fleet or 9RS or samurai. I would prefer ALL of the SHPs show off their skills and be pushed to their limits during the climax fights.
Ussop was playing a support role IIRC, to create openings for Chopper who was the real damage dealer there.
Nami vs Kalifa was massive CIS from Kalifa's part, and it still made no sense.
Ussop and Namis shines best when they are out of direct combat, and making stuff happen with their skill that affects the combat in some way. Case in point:
- Ussop's best moment post timeskip (IMO) was him awakening observation haki and stopping Sugar. This had nothing to do with direct combat
- Nami's best moment post timeskip (IMO) was her using BM's vivre card to control the tree homie, hide in it, and spam rain clouds to help Luffy beat Cracker. Again, nothing to do with direct combat.
We don't need them to be in direct combat to shine and fulfill their role. It's BS, would involve massive CIS and usually leave a bad taste (at least for me).
Out of all of the F6, Ulti was seen as the most tenacious and ferocious one, the rest only had their looks that made them powerful, but Ulti was straight fighter. How would we rank the Beasts Pirates, to include the Supernova allied? King > Queen > Jack > WW > Drake > Sasaki > Ulti > Page One > BM > Apoo > Hawkins
Hmmm, Zeus was nerfed, right? Nami herself said she could take down Ulti because she was weakened after Big Mom's attack. I think Franky's lasers could do more than that...
Yeah, Zeus couldn't have taken down Ulti at all. She was taken down only because she was at low health after whatever BM did to her.
But then again, Franky's lasers only worked because it landed on the soft side of Sasaki's zoan form.
So, it's not like Franky can take down a Tobiroppo straight up, using his laser as well.
- Zoro is relative to Law and Kid (as strong or at least close). Either of them are strong enough to replicate what Yamato did as we saw in the manga itself, so Zoro can as well be scaling.
- Yeah, Kaido fought Scabbards who range from YC2-4 level. But, first commanders are built different from the rest. Marco fought BM for almost as long as Scabbards vs Kaido, and came out unscathed and then fought King and Queen alone for a long duration.
Sanji post Germa bio awakening pretty much mid diff'd Queen. He's as strong as or right at the doorsteps of 1st commander level..
Zoro, even before fighting King, was strong enough to hold his own against Yonkos. He could damage Kaido, tank his attacks and give him scar. Zoro post fight with King is a lot stronger than the Zoro we saw at rooftop
Theoretically this can be a viable strategy to take down stronger opponents while sacrificing weaker ones.
But the execution was quite poor.
I think, as others pointed out here, it was a sub-plot introduced for Oda to make Chopper somehow relevant.
Plus, it wasn't like Queen even saw the alliance as a threat, he was really overconfident. So, he really just wanted to have some sadistic fun rather than actually thinking about strategic value of what he was doing.
Zeus alone would be quite weak now. He has no powers of his own.
With prep from Nami, Zeus is almost/around Franky level in attack power.
If Zeus was as strong as he was under BM, then he strikes at a level close to YC3, not more than that.
Because, a Zeus under BM, after being supercharged from clouds and BM herself, was striking at levels which were tankable by Killer even when offguard. Killer is someone I consider to somewhere between 1st and 2nd commander level.
They could still have their own fights and possibly win. Them winning over the F6 would definitely be power levels thrown out the window, I understand that part. Yet Nami and Usopp's fights have kinda always been out of power level sense. Nami was not stronger than Kalifa or Ms. Doublefinger, just like Usopp was not stronger than Mr. 4 and Ms. Groundhog Day or stronger than the Fishman. Yet somehow Oda made sense of their fights.
While I would have preferred Oda had stuck with Nami vs Ulti and Usopp vs Page One , I would have accepted that final outcome, because I know Oda would have made their wins somewhat sensible. Nami vs Ulti seemed like an asspull and not entirely Nami's win, though. Oda could have handled that better.
But like I mentioned they could have still shined in their moments, yet Oda decided for Usopp to do almost nothing.
The fact that Oda in the past decade has decided to neglect some of the weaker straw hats in lieu of non-shp supporting characters, made the series lose appeal to me. I could care less of the Grand fleet or 9RS or samurai. I would prefer ALL of the SHPs show off their skills and be pushed to their limits during the climax fights.
Out of all of the F6, Ulti was seen as the most tenacious and ferocious one, the rest only had their looks that made them powerful, but Ulti was straight fighter. How would we rank the Beasts Pirates, to include the Supernova allied? King > Queen > Jack > WW > Drake > Sasaki > Ulti > Page One > BM > Apoo > Hawkins
Are you not taking their ranking (i.e. Apoo or Hawkins being only Headliners) too serious? I think Apoo or Hawkins proved themselves to be among the strongest. I don't see Franky or Robin standing a chance against them.
I think Apoo or Hawkins are equal to Drake, and they are stronger than any of the Flying Six. Although I'm not sure how they compare against Jack.
Next we have Ulti and Who's Who. Ulti pushed Luffy to use Gear 4 until their fight was interrupted. But I'm not sure if Ulti is stronger than Who's Who or not. Still they don't appear to be as strong as Drake or Jack.
Page One was a pain in the ass to Sanji with the Raid Suit. And while Ulti was clearly stronger than Page One, I think it was implied their levels is not too far away.
1 - King
2 - Queen
3 - Jack, Drake, Apoo, Hawkins
4 - Ulti, Who's Who
5 - Page One
6 - Sasaki, Black Maria
Ranking the Beast Pirates, sans the All-Stars for obvious reasons, is a bit hard given some of the matchups and the fact that there isn't really a good point of comparison for the lot of them.
I was only impressed with Ulti, Apoo, and Black Maria honestly.
Going purely off of feats, Ulti was the main stand-out and was popping off left and right against heavy hitters. She even bounced back from a Big Mom trademarked laser, something her peer Sasaki couldn't do against Franky's laser. WW and Sasaki were worried about Drake becoming the next All-Star, they should've been worried about Ulti. The Beast Pirates were a meritocracy and she was the only one putting in real work.
Apoo fled for most of the Raid, but he low-key put in work against some decently strong characters. He took some decent punishment as well and kept on trucking. Taking a Shishi Sonson from Zoro and hopping back up is pretty impressive. Same with taking a direct hit from CP0 and managing to escape from them.
Black Maria held the advantage over Robin for most of their fight and heavily countered the majority of Robin's moves until the end. Given the way Robin's abilities function and their range of effect, that't mighty impressive, in my opinion. She had the right tool set for her and made the most of it.
Everyone else was various forms of meh or outright disappointing. Even my boy Hawkins, who I still like, had to hold the idiot ball to get his L.
Apoo is a random one since we really didn't see much from him. Yet I would not rank Apoo, Hawkins, even Drake equal to Jack. Jack is a YC3, equal to Cracker and Doffy. No other Supernova besides Law and Traffy and Zolo now (Sanji too) can defeat a YC3 IMO.
Apoo was knocked out by Zolo in one shot and was able to come back. Zolo did more damage than Apoo did to Zolo and Luffy.
Drake is kinda mysterious and popular. The reason why so many people rank him the highest F6 is because he is popular and a supernova, but honestly his performance was subpar, I was expecting more from him, Oda should've stayed with the part of Drake vs Apoo and Drake winning. Instead he ruined the character and let Apoo go trusting him into fighting as a pair vs CP0. I wouldn't rank him higher than WW. I see Drake same as Page One or even Ulti.
Sasaki seem tough and ready to fight an All Star but his performance was a joke. I think he is stronger than Franky just that General Franky was able to expose his weakness and that is how he won through the underbelly. But if it was Franky without his General, Sasaki would've won. Even so, I wouldn't say Sasaki is near YC3 level.
Page One was great vs Sanji and terrifying. I had high hopes for the F6 when I saw him. Too bad Oda decided to make his character a joke just like so many and off screen their fight. Then at Onigashima, he was taken out so early. I was still hoping we would see a Sanji and Page One encounter again OR a full Usopp vs Page One.
BM didn't seem that strong and it was good match up vs Robin.
Ulti, I think its safe to say that she is most likely the favorite F6 because of her tenacity. She upheld the title of F6 and was probably the most loyal F6 to Kaido besides maybe BM. I enjoyed how she basically pulled a Nami by saying "Kaido will be the Pirate King" and fought Luffy.
Her and Page One were treated bad in those chapters with Big Mom that made no sense at all.
Hawkins was somewhat impressive at the beginning of Wano but during the Raid he was useless in strength. Relied too much on his DF power and hostage instead of damaging Killer. Also he took too many hits dead on from Zolo and Killer. I expected more from him but I rank him low.
I think the Flying 6 are the strongest headliners and Apoo or Hawkins are below them in strength. I don't think it is a requisite to be an Ancient Zoan to be part of the team, it turns out they are all Ancient Zoans though.
Nothing much to say about that...
Yonko > Admirals >= some YC(exceptional ones like Marco Beckman(cause of hype) Rayleigh(of course) Zoro(at some point in the future)) > others YC
Also remember the Strawhat grand fleet are making a ruckus in the new world and they’re pretty powerful in their own right
Law and kidd don’t have forces like thatv
Come on somebody get it going..lol
Alright with all seriousness. I feel like this fan base just deals with extremities or absolutes way too much. & for some reason doesn’t agree much or finds something to disagree about.
My personal opinion. Yonkou > Admirals;
Yonkou are superior imo because they know ACoC.
Admirals imo pose a High-mid diff challenge to a Yonkou. At least the OG 3 Admirals. I’m gonna say Fuji & Akimari can put up a mid diff fight…
-I also believe the Admirals have Awakened Elemental DF.
Still confident admirals can fight the emperors. None of the three admirals went down against Whitebeard, they were still fighting to the very end and were still standing in the end.
Still confident admirals can fight the emperors. None of the three admirals went down against Whitebeard, they were still fighting to the very end and were still standing in the end.
Tobiroppo/Yonko-executive tier:
- Rest of the Scabbards
- Perospero
- Crocodile
- Snack
- Who's Who
- Ulti
- Apoo/Hawkins/Bege
- Page One/Ovens
- Cavendish (Hakuba)
- Don Sai
- Don Chinjao (old)/Lao G
- Sasaki/Daifuku
- Franky
- Black Maria
- Robin/Brook
Honourable mentions:
The character mentioned here are those who we have no idea where they exactly stand, based on both feats and narration. By taking vague hype/portrayal into account:
- Imu (at minimum PK tier, maybe even above it in a tier of his own)
- Gorosei (Yonko tier)
- Kong (Yonko tier)
- Zunesha (Yonko tier)
- Scopper (Admiral tier)
- Ben Beckman (Admiral tier)
- Weevil (Admiral tier or YC1+)
- Sabo (YC1+)
- Shiryu (Admiral tier, or YC1+)
- Gecko Moria (peak: YC1+, current: on/below Tobiroppo)
- Yassop/Lucky Roo (YC2)
- Urogue (YC3)
- Thatch (YC3)
- Boa Hancock/Kuma (YC3, or Tobiroppo)
NOTE:
This is just what I think of overall power level, and doesn't take into account individual matchups. Some characters might be below others in a straight 1v1, but can win against them due to matchups.
For example: Akainu and Aokiji were evenly matched and fought for 10 days, but I consider Akainu's "peak" or overall power level above Aokiji's.
This may lead to some disagreements, and that's fine, I understand where it's coming from. We can agree to disagree.
Some characters are ranked based on what we know of them, it's possible they got stronger off screen and we wouldn't know about it until well into the next arc. While some others are only known to be as high tier and relative to each other. Some examples:
- Blackbeard : no info of current level. Position based on his portrayal (and bounty) in beginning of the timeskip.
- Akainu/Whitebeard (old) : we have info only of them relative to each other, Akainu might come out as a God next arc and I'll have to readjust both of their positions. I positioned them where they are at, because I think WB at Marineford was the weakest Yonko.
Kid was the one who was mostly fighting BM straight up, giving room for Law the launch his devastating attacks. His combat speed is somewhat relative to BM's own.
He has enough attack power to break BM's bones, and make her cough up blood, scream in pain.
Do you think Katakuri can replicate what Kid did against BM? I don't think so
Assign is pretty damn OP if you think about it. He can make powerful weapons like EM canons by assigning various polarities, can screw up movements of opponents by assigning polarity etc.
All he needs to do is get close enough and wave hand to assign polarity, he doesn't even need to touch.
We also have to consider portrayal/author intent as well.
Kid is clearly portrayed as the top 3 figures of the new generation, and one who can potentially challenge Luffy (has conqueror's haki too, portrayal in prison as someone who can match Luffy in will/physical strength etc)
Killer is portrayed together with Zoro, and has some form of rivalry with him, similar to Sanji.
Killer also gave pre-Enma Zoro a high diff, while not having his main weapons.
He had attack power high enough to damage Kaido, and tanked attacks from Kaido and BM.
He pretty much stomped Hawkins once the threat of hostage situation was resolved, and this was after he was injured in the rooftop fight. Hawkins is someone who is pretty strong himself
Killer was also portrayed/chosen by Oda as one of the 5 leading figures of the next generation. Clearly Oda considers Killer as special.
