One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Because who Kaido 1 shot was Boundman which is not as good as base Luffy when it comes to taking damage. Who Kaido couldn't 1 shot was base Luffy. Base Luffy seems to be better in taking damage compared to Boundman Luffy.

Base Luffy tanked dozen conqueror coating in ch. 1037 while Boundman almost passed out from 1 Kaido's Thunder Bagua (ch. 1042)

G4 Luffy has higher physical defense/durability than base Luffy. That is the whole point of coating himself in CoA haki. I have no idea where you are getting that base Luffy is the more a durable form. The only advantage base Luffy has is endurance since G4 has a time limit.


Also this panel is lacking context. It is important to note that this is not Thunder Bagua! This attack was Kaidou's Roaring Thunder Bagua which he used to counter Luffy's Over King Kong Gun so power wise it is a lot stronger than Thunder Bagua. Comparing this to the standard Thunder Bagua would be like comparing Kong Gun to King Kong Gun.

The fact Luffy's G4 took this hit and continued fighting is evidence of the forms durability.

 

[BlackTiger]

G4 Luffy has higher physical defense/durability than base Luffy. That is the whole point of coating himself in CoA haki. I have no idea where you are getting that base Luffy is the more a durable form. The only advantage base Luffy has is endurance since G4 has a time limit.


Also this panel is lacking context. It is important to note that this is not Thunder Bagua! This attack was Kaidou's Roaring Thunder Bagua which he used to counter Luffy's Over King Kong Gun so power wise it is a lot stronger than Thunder Bagua. Comparing this to the standard Thunder Bagua would be like comparing Kong Gun to King Kong Gun.

The fact Luffy's G4 took this hit and continued fighting is evidence of the forms durability.

I think it is also important to note that Kaido is weakened in those panels. So his Thunder Bellow Bagua is not stronger than his Thunder Bagua.

For someone whose armament is below Boundman, Boundman looks very durable (Doflamingo for example). Kaido's armament surpassed Boundman so there is not a difference between him hitting base Luffy and Boundman Luffy. Boundman Luffy almost passed out from Kaido's Thunder Bagua while base Luffy tanked dozens of Kaido's conqueror coating. Ch. 1037 and ch. 1042 prove it.

Gear 4 is also prone to lose a lot of energy if he is hit by strong attack (Thunder Bagua in this case). The powerful attack forces the steam from Luffy's body to come out of Luffy's mouth which in turn reduces Luffy's energy. Base Luffy does not have that risk therefore base Luffy seems to be better in term of taking conqueror coating attacks compared to Boundman.

 

[HereNThere]

Because who Kaido 1 shot was Boundman which is not as good as base Luffy when it comes to taking damage.

I'm with you on the argument about Kaido's speed, but this is completely untrue. Aside from the simple fact that Boundman boost Luffy's muscle density, greatly improving his physical capabilities, we know through Doffy that the properties of his rubber are greatly increased as well, further boosting hos defense.

Plot based durability aside (I still find Luffy withstanding Boro Breath pretty ridiculous, especially considering the threat Blazing Drum was supposed to represent), I'd say Kaido's Bagua variants are his strongest techniques, which is why they are constantly shown to be nigh fight ending moves against everyone who's hit by it. Luffy tanking regular CoC infused blows in base doesn't correlate to his base form being more durable than Gear 4th.

If you want to argue for Katakuri's strength and Luffy's durability between arcs, just focus on the differences in haki proficiency as that is the key game changer. Luffy could physically knock Kaido around in Kuri, but it didn't do anything because his haki wasn't up to snuff enough at that point in time. Kaido could one shot Luffy because his CoC infused attacks were far beyond anything could muster up defensive wise at that moment.

Katakuri could likely bounce around Kaido in the same way, which would mean he's capable enough to an extent, but it doesn't matter as, as far as we know, he doesn't have CoC infused attacks.

So when it comes to Kidd, as I mentioned before, I think they could square off decently. Kid's feats, on paper, put him in a better position, but I think the main issue with Katakuri would be his Awakened ability would be potentially lessen Kid's arsenal if turned to mochi. That plus future sight is tough. On the flip side, Kid's durability is no joke and his upper end attacks could swiftly deal with Katakuri if he catches him at the right time.

 

[BlackTiger]

I'm with you on the argument about Kaido's speed, but this is completely untrue. Aside from the simple fact that Boundman boost Luffy's muscle density, greatly improving his physical capabilities, we know through Doffy that the properties of his rubber are greatly increased as well, further boosting hos defense.

Plot based durability aside (I still find Luffy withstanding Boro Breath pretty ridiculous, especially considering the threat Blazing Drum was supposed to represent), I'd say Kaido's Bagua variants are his strongest techniques, which is why they are constantly shown to be nigh fight ending moves against everyone who's hit by it. Luffy tanking regular CoC infused blows in base doesn't correlate to his base form being more durable than Gear 4th.

If you want to argue for Katakuri's strength and Luffy's durability between arcs, just focus on the differences in haki proficiency as that is the key game changer. Luffy could physically knock Kaido around in Kuri, but it didn't do anything because his haki wasn't up to snuff enough at that point in time. Kaido could one shot Luffy because his CoC infused attacks were far beyond anything could muster up defensive wise at that moment.

Katakuri could likely bounce around Kaido in the same way, which would mean he's capable enough to an extent, but it doesn't matter as, as far as we know, he doesn't have CoC infused attacks.

So when it comes to Kidd, as I mentioned before, I think they could square off decently. Kid's feats, on paper, put him in a better position, but I think the main issue with Katakuri would be his Awakened ability would be potentially lessen Kid's arsenal if turned to mochi. That plus future sight is tough. On the flip side, Kid's durability is no joke and his upper end attacks could swiftly deal with Katakuri if he catches him at the right time.

Doflamingo cannot tickle Boundman because his armament haki was below Boundman's armament. So his armament attack did 0 damage to Boundman while he could damage base Luffy.

Kaido's armament is above Boundman. So he could damage Boundman and with strong attack like Thunder Bagua, he could force Luffy to lose energy in the form of steam coming out of Luffy's mouth which leads to lose of energy. Base Luffy does not have this risk. He could take dozens of Thunder Bagua and he won't lose energy since there is no steam when Luffy is in his base form.

Kaido's Thunder Bagua was his strongest which almost made Luffy pass out in chapter 1042 but keep in mind that was weakened Kaido. Not full power Kaido. So it's too far fetched to assume that Thunder Bagua was stronger than Thunder Bagua Kaido used on act 1 Luffy.

Kidd is much less durable than Luffy. I doubt Kidd can take conqueror coating attack from Kaido. Katakuri only need much fewer hits to take Kidd down. Assign needs Kidd to touch his opponent. It's not possible when he faces CoO master and Snakeman speed like Katakuri.

In term of ap Katakuri has Mochi Thrust which almost made Luffy pass out (the attack did not hit Luffy directly) while the same Luffy had no problem taking conqueror coating from Kaido head on. Katakuri also has no problem landing Mochi Thrust on Kidd since Kidd has 0 observation haki's feat, very slow compared to base Luffy and he is not made of rubber like Luffy which enables him to bend his neck to dodge Mochi Thrust to the head.

 

[kkck]

Pre Udon Luffy

Post Udon Luffy against weakened Kaido

There is no power creep. Luffy's speed is consistent. Kaido is just not as fast as Katakuri outside his Thunder bagua move which has the potential to surpass Katakur's attack speed.

no power creep? Pre udon luffy was basically at 100% of his strength and was taken out in one shot. Luffy from the point you mentioned was basically on his last leg, you even see him literally holding back his last strength from escaping him. Add to that, pre udon kaido was in his base form while the post udon bit you show has kaido using his hybrid form. Let alone that shortly before that luffy was fighting without any gears whatsoever and taking hits from kaido without using gear 4.

 

[BlackTiger]

no power creep? Pre udon luffy was basically at 100% of his strength and was taken out in one shot. Luffy from the point you mentioned was basically on his last leg, you even see him literally holding back his last strength from escaping him. Add to that, pre udon kaido was in his base form while the post udon bit you show has kaido using his hybrid form. Let alone that shortly before that luffy was fighting without any gears whatsoever and taking hits from kaido without using gear 4.

Pre Udon and post udon Luffy got blitzed by Thunder bagua. Look at the panels I posted. So I don't know what powercreep you are talking about. Luffy's speed is consistent. Kaido is just that slow compared to Katakuri. Got hit a lot by base Luffy. Also Gear 4 act 1 Luffy did not use Future Sight while base Luffy on the rooftop used Future Sight. Base Lufy with Future Sight is a much better dodger than Gear 4 Luffy without Future Sight.

Post Udon Kaido who 1 vs 1 Luffy was weakened Kaido. Luffy did not get faster/more durable. Kaido just got weaker. Yamato confirmed this. Luffy was in full power. He ate and slept. Kaido was not so Luffy was not on his last leg.

Kaido 1 shot Boundman Luffy. Luffy who tanked conqueror's coating from Kaido was base Luffy. Base Luffy seems to be better than Boundman when it comes to taking damage. So there is no powercreep in durability. Kaido just 1 shot much less durable Luffy.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I think it is also important to note that Kaido is weakened in those panels. So his Thunder Bellow Bagua is not stronger than his Thunder Bagua.

I disagree with this statement. Kaidou was not weaker in the sense that his attacks were no longer as powerful, he was weaker in the sense that he had less HP. In every single arc Luffy and the villain use their most powerful attack at the very end of their fights when they are low in HP and not once has Oda indicated that those final attacks were not full power, let alone the final attack being weaker than a non final technique. Examples:

• Luffy v Doffy - King Kong Gun v God Thread. Would you argue that Luffy's Kong Gun is stronger than his King Kong Gun here because Luffy was weaker at this point in the fight?
• Luffy v Katakuri - King Cobra v Zan Giri Mochi. Would you argue that Luffy's Black Mamba was stronger than his King Cobra here because Luffy was weaker at this point in the fight?
• Luffy v Kaido - Monkey God Gun v Rising Dragon Flame Bagua. Would you argue any of Luffy's or Kaidou's previous attacks were stronger than these final attacks becuase this was both characters were at their weakest?

For someone whose armament is below Boundman, Boundman looks very durable (Doflamingo for example). Kaido's armament surpassed Boundman so there is not a difference between him hitting base Luffy and Boundman Luffy. Boundman Luffy almost passed out from Kaido's Thunder Bagua while base Luffy tanked dozens of Kaido's conqueror coating. Ch. 1037 and ch. 1042 prove it.

I don't think this is the right way to think about this. When using a defensive technique like CoA it doesn't matter if the opponent is above or below you for the defense to have some effect. A defensive technique not being able to neutralize an attack completely doesn't mean it doesn't reduce the damage you'd take without it.

A real life example is air bags in a car. When you crash head on to something the air bags deploy and your head hits them. You can still get severely injured even with the air bag. However, you would be far more injured if there was no air bag at all. The only situation where this would not apply practically is if the damage was so severe the person dies e.g. if you die even with an air bag it wouldn't have mattered whether you had it or not.

From a manga point of view, a similar comparison is Luffy vs Katakuri. In that fight Katakuri's CoA haki was superior to Luffy's (particularly when using chikara mochi). However, Luffy didn't stop using CoA because at the end of the day it still provided him some defense even if it didn't outright neutralize the damage.

Gear 4 is also prone to lose a lot of energy if he is hit by strong attack (Thunder Bagua in this case). The powerful attack forces the steam from Luffy's body to come out of Luffy's mouth which in turn reduces Luffy's energy. Base Luffy does not have that risk therefore base Luffy seems to be better in term of taking conqueror coating attacks compared to Boundman.

G4 is a literal balloon. Luffy was not losing energy he was losing air, which would make him lose the form. However, I do agree and did already concede that G4 is does not have good stamina. I'm arguing that G4 has higher defense than base Luffy.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 25, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 25, 2022 ---

Please stop comparing a no name aCoC infused attack to Roaring Thunder Bagua! They are no where near the same level of attack. It would be akin to comparing a pistol to a missile.

 

[BlackTiger]

I disagree with this statement. Kaidou was not weaker in the sense that his attacks were no longer as powerful, he was weaker in the sense that he had less HP. In every single arc Luffy and the villain use their most powerful attack at the very end of their fights when they are low in HP and not once has Oda indicated that those final attacks were not full power, let alone the final attack being weaker than a non final technique. Examples:

• Luffy v Doffy - King Kong Gun v God Thread. Would you argue that Luffy's Kong Gun is stronger than his King Kong Gun here because Luffy was weaker at this point in the fight?
• Luffy v Katakuri - King Cobra v Zan Giri Mochi. Would you argue that Luffy's Black Mamba was stronger than his King Cobra here because Luffy was weaker at this point in the fight?
• Luffy v Kaido - Monkey God Gun v Rising Dragon Flame Bagua. Would you argue any of Luffy's or Kaidou's previous attacks were stronger than these final attacks becuase this was both characters were at their weakest?

It affects speed and power too. When Zoro tried to slash Arlong's nose, Arlong mocked Zoro that if Zoro was in full power, he could have left a scar in Arlong's nose. (that was Zoro after he was injured by Mihawk). Kaido's power and speed also decreased.

Luffy vs katakuri --> Both were weakened.
Luffy vs Doflamingo --> Both were weakened.
Luffy vs Kaido. Luffy was in full power while Kaido was weakened.
Different comparison.

I don't think this is the right way to think about this. When using a defensive technique like CoA it doesn't matter if the opponent is above or below you for the defense to have some effect. A defensive technique not being able to neutralize an attack completely doesn't mean it doesn't reduce the damage you'd take without it.

A real life example is air bags in a car. When you crash head on to something the air bags deploy and your head hits them. You can still get severely injured even with the air bag. However, you would be far more injured if there was no air bag at all. The only situation where this would not apply practically is if the damage was so severe the person dies e.g. if you die even with an air bag it wouldn't have mattered whether you had it or not.

From a manga point of view, a similar comparison is Luffy vs Katakuri. In that fight Katakuri's CoA haki was superior to Luffy's (particularly when using chikara mochi). However, Luffy didn't stop using CoA because at the end of the day it still provided him some defense even if it didn't outright neutralize the damage.

This is the right way. Boundman looked durable to Doflamingo because Doflamingo's armament was below Boundman while Kaido's armament was above Boundman so Kaido could force Luffy to lose energy (steam comes out of Luffy's mouth) by attacking Luffy with Thunder Bagua.

This is One Piece not real life. Oda clearly showed how base Luffy is a better tanker than Boundman.

G4 is a literal balloon. Luffy was not losing energy he was losing air, which would make him lose the form. However, I do agree and did already concede that G4 is does not have good stamina. I'm arguing that G4 has higher defense than base Luffy.

Luffy losing air means he loses energy. The lose of energy is caused by strong attack like Thunder Bagua.

Losing air could lead Luffy to turn back to his base form. This happened in Kuri act 1

Boundman only has higher defense than base Luffy to someone whose armament is below Boundman (Doflamingo). For Kaido whose armament is above Boundman, he could hit Boundman so hard that Boundman would lose a lot of energy (steam comes out of Luffy's mouth) and base Luffy does not have this risk. That's why I said base Luffy is a better tanked than Boundman.

Please stop comparing a no name aCoC infused attack to Roaring Thunder Bagua! They are no where near the same level of attack. It would be akin to comparing a pistol to a missile.

Base Luffy also took Ragnarok, Gundari Ryuseigun

 

[DeadlyBeast]

It affects speed and power too. When Zoro tried to slash Arlong's nose, Arlong mocked Zoro that if Zoro was in full power, he could have left a scar in Arlong's nose. (that was Zoro after he was injured by Mihawk). Kaido's power and speed also decreased.

Luffy vs katakuri --> Both were weakened.
Luffy vs Doflamingo --> Both were weakened.
Luffy vs Kaido. Luffy was in full power while Kaido was weakened.
Different comparison.

So is King Kong Gun weaker than Kong Gun in Luffy's fight with Doffy?

This is the right way. Boundman looked durable to Doflamingo because Doflamingo's armament was below Boundman while Kaido's armament was above Boundman so Kaido could force Luffy to lose energy (steam comes out of Luffy's mouth) by attacking Luffy with Thunder Bagua.

This is One Piece not real life. Oda clearly showed how base Luffy is a better tanker than Boundman.

So you saying this is not real life concedes that your argument doesn't have actual logic to it. My comparison was just to make a simple point. I can make up numbers in OP version to make the same point:
- Luffy CoA gives him 10 points in defense
- Doffy CoA gives him 8 points in attack
- Doffy attacks Luffy but doesn't hurt him because in net he is -2 in attack
- Kaidou CoA gives him 20 points in attack
- Kaidou attacks Luffy and hurts him because in net he is +10 in attack
- If Luffy doesn't use CoA and Kaidou attacks it would be +20 in attack
- 20 > 10 so CoA even if it can't neutralize an attack still offers defensive capability

What evidence does the manga offer on this? Every character who uses CoA doesn't suddenly just stop using it to defend just because their opponent was able to hurt them despite it.

Luffy losing air means he loses energy. The lose of energy is caused by strong attack like Thunder Bagua.

Losing air could lead Luffy to turn back to his base form. This happened in Kuri act 1

Since when is air the same thing as energy. You just literally made that up. No where has this ever been stated or indicated.

Boundman only has higher defense than base Luffy to someone whose armament is below Boundman (Doflamingo). For Kaido whose armament is above Boundman, he could hit Boundman so hard that Boundman would lose a lot of energy (steam comes out of Luffy's mouth) and base Luffy does not have this risk. That's why I said base Luffy is a better tanked than Boundman.

Boundman has higher defense.PERIOD.

Base Luffy also took Ragnarok, Gundari Ryuseigun

And guess what? Luffy was literally knocked out from Ragnorak which proves my point. Named attacks are far stronger than normal attacks (not counting characters that don't have named attacks at all a la Mihawk/White Beard).

 

[BlackTiger]

So is King Kong Gun weaker than Kong Gun in Luffy's fight with Doffy?

Luffy both used King Kong Gun and Kong Gun when he was in weakened state so King Kong Gun was obviosly stronger than Kong Gun. On the other hand, Kaido used Thunder Bellow Bagua while he was in weakened state. Different comparison.

So you saying this is not real life concedes that your argument doesn't have actual logic to it. My comparison was just to make a simple point. I can make up numbers in OP version to make the same point:
- Luffy CoA gives him 10 points in defense
- Doffy CoA gives him 8 points in attack
- Doffy attacks Luffy but doesn't hurt him because in net he is -2 in attack
- Kaidou CoA gives him 20 points in attack
- Kaidou attacks Luffy and hurts him because in net he is +10 in attack
- If Luffy doesn't use CoA and Kaidou attacks it would be +20 in attack
- 20 > 10 so CoA even if it can't neutralize an attack still offers defensive capability

What evidence does the manga offer on this? Every character who uses CoA doesn't suddenly just stop using it to defend just because their opponent was able to hurt them despite it.

The fact that Doflamingo cannot tickle Boundman implies that his armament was below Boundman while Kaido could hit Boundman Luffy so hard that Luffy started foaming (lose energy) means Kaido's armament was above Boundman. If Kaido's armament was below Boundman, his attack won't cause Luffy to lose energy (steam comes out of Luffy's mouth).

Boundman Luffy clearly used armament coating but Kaido's armament was just that much stronger than Boundman so Kaido's Thunder Bagua forced Boundman to lose energy when steam came out of Luffy's mouth.

Since when is air the same thing as energy. You just literally made that up. No where has this ever been stated or indicated.

The panels I posted show Luffy said he would lose strength at the same moment that steam came out of Luffy's mouth

Boundman has higher defense.PERIOD.

And almost passed out from conqueror coating while base Luffy tanked Gundari Ryuseigu, Ragnarok and dozen conqueror coating when he fought Kaido beforehand (when Luffy told Zoro to go below).

And guess what? Luffy was literally knocked out from Ragnorak which proves my point. Named attacks are far stronger than normal attacks (not counting characters that don't have named attacks at all a la Mihawk/White Beard).

Luffy was not knocked out in those panels from Ragnarok. Luffy who was knocked out from Ragnarok was the Ragnarok used by full power kaido (before Kaido took Ashura from Zoro). Weakened Kaido cannot knock out base Luffy while weakened Kaido almost made Boundman pass out.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Yes but Doflamingo was also weakened due to the amount of damage he took from Boundman attacks, Gamma Knife so it balances out. In Kaido vs Luffy, only Kaido was weakened while Luffy was in full power.

I'm not asking about Doflamingo. I'm just asking you is Luffy's King Kong Gun that he used in that fight weaker than Luffy's Kong Gun that he used ealier in that fight e.g. if Luffy time traveled and clashed with himself would King Kong Gun lose to Kong Gun?

The fact that Doflamingo cannot tickle Boundman implies that his armament was below Boundman while Kaido could hit Boundman Luffy so hard that Luffy started foaming (lose energy) means Kaido's armament was above Boundman. If Kaido's armament was below Boundman, his attack won't cause Luffy to lose energy (steam comes out of Luffy's mouth).

Again being able to do damage to a person with CoA does not mean the CoA offered 0 protection. It's not a binary thing.

The panels I posted show Luffy said he would lose strength at the same moment that steam came out of Luffy's mouth

He would lose his G4 form if the air came out. Not his energy.

And almost passed out from conqueror coating while base Luffy tanked Gundari Ryuseigu, Ragnarok and dozen conqueror coating when he fought Kaido beforehand (when Luffy told Zoro to go below).

Kaido's Roaring Thunder Bagua is his 3rd strongest move, only surpassed by Death Destruction Bagua and his Flame Bagua. So still not a good comparison.

Luffy was not knocked out in those panels from Ragnarok. Luffy who was knocked out from Ragnarok was the Ragnarok used by full power kaido (before Kaido took Ashura from Zoro). Weakened Kaido cannot knock out base Luffy while weakened Kaido almost made Boundman pass out.

Ah my bad, yes you're right this was the second time he used that attack. My understanding is once Luffy started using aCoC he is able to tank more hits because he's now coated in it defensively. This is not confirmed but myself and many others think this is the case but will have to wait for Oda to confirm.

 

[BlackTiger]

I'm not asking about Doflamingo. I'm just asking you is Luffy's King Kong Gun that he used in that fight weaker than Luffy's Kong Gun that he used ealier in that fight e.g. if Luffy time traveled and clashed with himself would King Kong Gun lose to Kong Gun?

Luffy both used King Kong Gun and Kong Gun when he was in weakened state so King Kong Gun was obviosly stronger than Kong Gun. On the other hand, Kaido used Thunder Bellow Bagua while he was in weakened state. Different comparison.

Again being able to do damage to a person with CoA does not mean the CoA offered 0 protection. It's not a binary thing.

It clearly did not help Luffy that much because Kaido used conqueror coating in his Thunder Bagua when Kaido 1 shot act 1 Luffy. Thunder Bagua is a conqueror coating attack. It is much stronger than normal armament attack. The thing is Kaido's Thunder Bagua was strong enough it forced Luffy to lose energy while base Luffy does not have risk to lose energy (steam comes out of Luffy's mouth).

He would lose his G4 form if the air came out. Not his energy.

Losing air=losing energy. When Luffy got hit by Thunder Bellow Bagua in ch. 1042, steam came out of his mouth and Luffy implied he would lose strength/energy if he did not cover Luffy's mouth. Ch. 923 is a same scenario. Steam came out of Luffy's mouth meaning Luffy lost energy but he did not cover his mouth with his hand therefore he lost a lot of energy until Luffy went back to his base form.

Kaido's Roaring Thunder Bagua is his 3rd strongest move, only surpassed by Death Destruction Bagua and his Flame Bagua. So still not a good comparison.

Still a good comparison. Boundman Luffy only took 1 Thunder Bellow Bagua and Boundman almost passed out. Base luffy may not take attack as strong as that but he took much more attacks. Dozen conqueror coating attacks, Gundari Ryuseigun, Ragnarok and base Luffy still did not pass out. Those attacks combined easily surpass Thunder Bellow Bagua.

Ah my bad, yes you're right this was the second time he used that attack. My understanding is once Luffy started using aCoC he is able to tank more hits because he's now coated in it defensively. This is not confirmed but myself and many others think this is the case but will have to wait for Oda to confirm.

If Luffy used conqueror coating to tank attacks, we would see lightning streak from body part of Luffy which he coated with conqueror. Luffy did not use conqueror coating to tank Kaido's attacks imo.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Luffy both used King Kong Gun and Kong Gun when he was in weakened state so King Kong Gun was obviosly stronger than Kong Gun. On the other hand, Kaido used Thunder Bellow Bagua while he was in weakened state. Different comparison.

Luffy was weaker when he used King Kong Gun than when he used Kong Kong. You can't use a blanket statment of a character is weaker so their more attacks are weaker. But it seems you are already starting to see the problem with your logic since you can't bring yourself to say that King Kong Gun is weaker than Kong Gun in that fight.

It clearly did not help Luffy that much because Kaido used conqueror coating in his Thunder Bagua when Kaido 1 shot act 1 Luffy. Thunder Bagua is a conqueror coating attack. It is much stronger than normal armament attack. The thing is Kaido's Thunder Bagua was strong enough it forced Luffy to lose energy while base Luffy does not have risk to lose energy (steam comes out of Luffy's mouth).

It may have helped him. For all we know Luffy could have straight up died from that attack if he didn't use CoA to defend. If what you are saying is true than why do characters still defend against attacks that they can't block? You keep arguing that defense is only useful if it is higher than the attack power being defended against e.g. G4 Luffy vs Doffy but have not addressed the fact many characters defend even when the attack is too powerful to stop.

Losing air=losing energy.

You made this up. I've already said this several times. There is no evidence that losing air is losing energy. Losing air makes Luffy lose his G4 form, that is it.

Still a good comparison. Boundman Luffy only took 1 Thunder Bellow Bagua and Boundman almost passed out. Base luffy may not take attack as strong as that but he took much more attacks. Dozen conqueror coating attacks, Gundari Ryuseigun, Ragnarok and base Luffy still did not pass out. Those attacks combined easily surpass Thunder Bellow Bagua.

Again not good comparison because his Bagua attacks are far stronger. Also he didn't take dozens of hits there. A lot of the attacks canceled each other out since Luffy was using Gattling.

If Luffy used conqueror coating to tank attacks, we would see lightning streak from body part of Luffy which he coated with conqueror. Luffy did not use conqueror coating to tank Kaido's attacks imo.

I semi agree. I think black lighting is indicative of aCoC the same way that black shading is indicative of CoA. However, we already now there is invisible CoA so a visual display may not be necessary to be coated in aCoC. I know this has yet to be confirmed so I won't say this is absolutely factual.

 

[BlackTiger]

Luffy was weaker when he used King Kong Gun than when he used Kong Kong. You can't use a blanket statment of a character is weaker so their more attacks are weaker. But it seems you are already starting to see the problem with your logic since you can't bring yourself to say that King Kong Gun is weaker than Kong Gun in that fight.

Luffy was in weakened state when he used those attacks. Luffy when he regained his haki (after he used Kong Gun and before he used King Kong Gun), only took 3 Doflamingo attacks. It was not similar with Kaido who took dozen attacks from Ashura which scarred him, Roc Gun, scabbards who performed Togen Totsuka and other conqueror coating attacks from Luffy before his final clash with Luffy until he was weakened that the cloud lifting Onigashima started to disappear.

This is weakened Luffy (after he fought Sanji and Cracker) against fodders (weaker than veterans).

Spoiler

Do you think fresh Luffy would be treated like this? Don't you think injuries affected Luffy's attack power and speed in these panels?

If you want another example, here is weakened Luffy after his fight with Katakuri got tagged by fodder like Raishin who Sanji easily blitzed and one shot

Spoiler

Being weakened affected Luffy's speed to the point that fodder like Raishin could tag him.

It may have helped him. For all we know Luffy could have straight up died from that attack if he didn't use CoA to defend. If what you are saying is true than why do characters still defend against attacks that they can't block? You keep arguing that defense is only useful if it is higher than the attack power being defended against e.g. G4 Luffy vs Doffy but have not addressed the fact many characters defend even when the attack is too powerful to stop.

Many characters defend from attacks if the attacks are too powerful by blocking or coating their body with armament. Luffy did not block. He has passive armament in Boundman form.

It did not help Luffy at all. Conqueror coating>>>>armament. Thunder Bagua is conqueror coating attack. The gap is too big between conqueror coating Thunder Bagua with Boundman's armament.

Boundman could lose energy if it is hit by strong attacks (ch. 1042 shows this) base Luffy does not have this risk. I said many times this is the reason why I think base Luffy is a better tanker than Boundman.

You made this up. I've already said this several times. There is no evidence that losing air is losing energy. Losing air makes Luffy lose his G4 form, that is it.

Then what came out of Luffy's mouth here? It is clearly air

and what did Luffy say when those air came out? he'll lose energy.

Again not good comparison because his Bagua attacks are far stronger. Also he didn't take dozens of hits there. A lot of the attacks canceled each other out since Luffy was using Gattling.

Luffy took dozen basic conqueror coating attacks offscreen. He took Ragnarok head on. It did not reduce Kaido's Gundari Ryuseigun even if he was hit by Luffy's Gatling Gun. Luffy took those Gatling and he was fine. Those combined easily surpass Thunder Bellow Bagua/on par with Thunder Bellow Bagua

I semi agree. I think black lighting is indicative of aCoC the same way that black shading is indicative of CoA. However, we already now there is invisible CoA so a visual display may not be necessary to be coated in aCoC. I know this has yet to be confirmed so I won't say this is absolutely factual.

Oda drew shading on Katakuri and Snakeman Luffy face when both exchanged blows. Conqueror coating needs lighting streak indication. Otherwise, that character does not use conqueror coating.

Upon closer look Thunder Bagua might be Kaido's strongest attack. Pre Udon Boundman and post udon Boundman Luffy passed out after taking it (post Udon Luffy almost passed out but it was weakened Kaido so it is justified). So Luffy did not get durability boost imo. Kaido just did not attack Luffy with his strongest attacks (Thunder Bagua). He hit base Luffy with attacks like Ragnarok, Gundari Ryuseigun.

 

[john ellis]

Luffy is not always that durable that is a joke, otherwise crocodile hits as hard as a yonko. The simple fact is post udon luffy stomps kata. And that yes udon was a huge power creep for luffy. Post Wano luffy low diffs kata. Kata just isn’t relative to any captain on the roof top. He gets defeated mid dif at best for him.

to be frank kata is proabbly speed blizted and one shot by g5 luffy.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I go camping for one week and the power levels forum goes to shit? How dare all of you.

 

[Crimson Ice]

No it does matter when Oda never showed Luffy trained his speed and durability. When Oda never stated conqueror coating improves speed and durability and also when Luffy's feat against kaido was against weakened Kaido. I'm not rationalizing. I'm just stating facts from the manga which you ignored because it does not fit your agenda.

It doesn't matter at all, Luffy needed to get stronger overall and he did. Oda did it, not me. Oda never said conqueror coating improves speed and durability, good thing I'm not claiming that.

It has never happened. You still have not answered if Baratie Sanji>Shells Town Zoro if you think powercreep always happen in each arc.

It's happened before, a matter of fact it happened in Wano, and the most famous example is Enis Lobby.

You don't care about my argument because you cannot wank Kidd sure. It makes Kidd bad he cannot damage WCI Luffy.

LOOOOL Ask anyone who's seen me post here regularly, I am no huge fan of Kid. I don't care about your argument because it's fucking terrible, not because of Kid

Gear 4 Luffy got white eyed by weakened Kaido (Ch. 1042)
Base Luffy tanked dozen conqueroro coating from weakened Kaido (ch. 1037)

I don't give a shit, he wasn't knocked out in either which is the point. And my goodness, look at the chapters both of these taken place in as well, Luffy in chapter 1042 had just accumulated more damage overall, even your own argument is flawed.

Sure you don't care because you can't answer how Gear 4 Luffy got white eyed by weakened Kaido while base Luffy tanked dozen conqueror coating from Kaido. Also it was weakened Kaido so it made sense that Gear 4 Luffy was not knocked out. Does not change that Luffy's durability is consistent.

I DON'T CARE BECAUSE THAT'S NOT MY ARGUMENT. I said Act 1 Luffy got one shot, meanwhile, he survived stronger attacks later on. Neither versions of Luffy were knocked out, you're bringing up irrelevant shit. Kaido's haki is expressively gotten stronger post drunk state.

Gear 4 Luffy got white eyed by weakened Kaido (Ch. 1042)
Base Luffy tanked dozen conqueroro coating from weakened Kaido (ch. 1037)

I already said this. Also ch. 1042 Luffy took Thunder Bagua from weakened Kaido. If ch. 1042 Luffy took Thunder Bagua from fresh Kaido, it would knock out Gear 4 Luffy.

You're repeating yourself, so ima just post this whenever you say this same point again.

And Kaido was also drunk when he 1 shot pre Udon Luffy. Both situations Kaido was drunk and both situations his armament got stronger. Kaido was weakened when he almost knocked out ch. 1042 Luffy so it balances out with base Kaido knocked out pre Udon's Luffy. You are ignoring that Kaido was injured when he fought ch. 1037 and ch. 1042 Luffy. Luffy's durability is consistent. So doesn't change what I said.

Say it with me! HEAD-CANNON!!!!!! It was only said Kaido got the haki bloom on the rooftop, he doesn't get it every time he's drunk. You have to prove that.

Current Luffy>>>WCI Luffy only in ap

Current Luffy>>>>>WCI Luffy across the board.

Luffy did not get durability boost. Pre udon Luffy got white yed by drunken Kaido. Post Udon Luffy (ch. 1042) almost got knocked out by drunked weakened Kaido. Luffy did not get durability boost but he was strong enough to tank conqueror coating which could harm Kaido whose durability shits on Big Mom. Kidd is just not that guy. He might beat WCI Luffy if Luffy stands there and Kidd spams his awakening attacks on Luffy. Luffy would take damage but he would tank it no problem. He can take dozen of those and they still won't knock him out. You are just giving Luffy the power up he never had because you cannot admit WCI Luffy is just that durable. Why cannot you admit that? Because you cannot downplay Katakuri's ap that way.

Ignoring the headcanon about Kaido's haki.

Big Mam might be more durable than Kaido but she's the second most durable character in the show who easily shit on boundman Luffy in WCI. Luffy is not that durable, before the rooftop he has been hurt by a multitude of people way weaker than Kaido. Your post is full of bullshit and headcannon.

 

[BlackTiger]

It doesn't matter at all, Luffy needed to get stronger overall and he did. Oda did it, not me. Oda never said conqueror coating improves speed and durability, good thing I'm not claiming that.

Yes it does matter. Luffy's training in udon was armament and conqueror coating boosts attack power. Yes Oda did it. Oda showed pre Udon Luffy and post udon Luffy (ch. 1042) got blitzed by Thunder Bagua. Luffy's speed is consistent. Oda showed pre Udon Luffy passed out from Thunder bagua while post Udon Luffy (ch. 1042) almost passed out from weakened Kaido. Luffy's durability is consistent. Two Luffy's stats which are consistent Oda clearly showed Luffy's speed and durability in Onigashima were similar with his speed and durability pre Udon something that you ignored.

It's happened before, a matter of fact it happened in Wano, and the most famous example is Enis Lobby.

LOOOOL Ask anyone who's seen me post here regularly, I am no huge fan of Kid. I don't care about your argument because it's fucking terrible, not because of Kid

It's not terrible. You just refused to admit Kaido was weakened when he blitzed and almost 1 shot Boundman Luffy. In your head Kaido was fresh when he 1 shot and blitzed ch. 1042 Boundman Luffy. It's not my take which is terrible. it's your reading comprehension which is terrible ignoring the obvious manga panels.

You put Big Mom's durability over Kaido. Not even Big Mom's fans put her durability over Kaido. Neutral readers know Kaido>>>Big Mom in durability. The reason why you are wanking Big Mom's durability is to wank Kidd. You are Kidd wanker and the extremes one at that. You need to twist the manga putting Big Mom's durability over Kaido just to make Kidd looked good. It's bad.

In Enies Lobby Nami said Luffy and Zoro got stronger if they fought for their friends. Luffy and Zoro did not fight for that in Water 7 while in Eneis Lobby the fought for Robin. Pre Udon and post Udon Luffy on the other hand fought for his friends and in Boundman form he got blitzed and almost passed out. Luffy's speed and durability are consistent.

You still have not answered if Baratie Sanji>Shells Town Zoro if you think powercreep happens in each arc. Why are you ignoring this question?

I don't give a shit, he wasn't knocked out in either which is the point. And my goodness, look at the chapters both of these taken place in as well, Luffy in chapter 1042 had just accumulated more damage overall, even your own argument is flawed.

Nah you need to give a shit because Kaido was weakened stated by Yamato. Kaido in ch. 1042 was arguable weaker than Kaido in act 1 in term of strength and speed who fought Luffy. The reason why ch. 1042 was a harder battle was because Kaido's used a lot of his strongest attacks (drunken mode, stronger version of Thunder Bagua and Ragnarok). Kaido accumulated more damage since he fought fresh Luffy (ch. 1027) while Kaido was weakened stated by Yamato. Kaido was even more damaged than Luffy so his strength and speed decreased even more while Luffy's strength and speed remained constant so it makes sense why Luffy almost passed out. Fresh Kaido 1 shot ch. 1042 Boundman Luffy.

I DON'T CARE BECAUSE THAT'S NOT MY ARGUMENT. I said Act 1 Luffy got one shot, meanwhile, he survived stronger attacks later on. Neither versions of Luffy were knocked out, you're bringing up irrelevant shit. Kaido's haki is expressively gotten stronger post drunk state.

Post Udon Luffy also almost got 1 shot by weakened Kaido (ch. 1042) so I don't know what your argument is. Luffy's durability is consistent. Thunder Bagua is Kaido's strongest attack.

You need to care because Luffy survived Kaido's attacks since Kaido used weaker attacks on Luffy (not his Thunder Bagua) so no durability boost. Unless you can show me panels of Luffy casually tanked Thunder bagua. That never happened.

I also said Act 1 Kaido was also drunk and act 1 Kaido's haki also got stronger so it does not help your arguments at all.

You're repeating yourself, so ima just post this whenever you say this same point again.

And I already said act 1 Kaido was also drunk. His haki also got stronger in act 1 so it does not help your argument.

Say it with me! HEAD-CANNON!!!!!! It was only said Kaido got the haki bloom on the rooftop, he doesn't get it every time he's drunk. You have to prove that.

No he got haki bloom when he was drunk. Act 1 Kaido was drunk therefore his haki also got stronger. Luffy literally said his haki got stronger after Kaido became drunk. Kaido stated Luffy was the first person to go toe to toe with him meaning Kaido viewed Yamato, scabbards, other 4 SN beneath him. Haki bloom happens in extreme battle stated by rayleigh. Why would Kaido got haki bloom fighting opponents he consider beneath him?

Kaido is drunk herwhen he is headbutting Luffy

You can see him crying in that panel.
The next page Luffy stated Kaido's haki got stronger.

Does not take a genius to figure it out that being drunk boosts Kaido's haki.

Current Luffy>>>>>WCI Luffy across the board.

Current Luffy=WCI Luffy in speed and durability

Ignoring the headcanon about Kaido's haki.

Big Mam might be more durable than Kaido but she's the second most durable character in the show who easily shit on boundman Luffy in WCI. Luffy is not that durable, before the rooftop he has been hurt by a multitude of people way weaker than Kaido. Your post is full of bullshit and headcannon.

I addressed kaido's haki. Act 1 Kaido was also drunk therefore his haki also got stronger.

No you just underestimated Katakuri, refused to admit Kaido got haki bloom from being drunk, running from my question if Baratie Sanji>Shells Town Zoro if powercreep exists, ignored that Kaido was weakened in ch. 1042 simple. Luffy's durability to external attacks is very high. Luffy did not get durability boost. Pre Udon Luffy got 1 shot by fresh Kaido while post Udon Luffy (ch. 1042) almost got 1 shot by much weaker Kaido (Yamato stated Kaido got weaker. He was in hybrid but it does not change that his power and speed decreased) in term of strength and speed. Luffy's durability is consistent. Luffy tanked an attack that could harm Kaido. Kaido's durability>>>Big Mom who almost died when she fell from Wedding Cake plateau. WCI Luffy has no trouble taking current Kidd's strongest attacks.

Big Mom needed armament to block Boundman's attack. So much for being more durable than Kaido. Falling from the waterfall gave her amnesia while Kaido survived falling from Skypiea. Big Mom being more durable than Kaido is a joke.

 

[grey matter]

People pretending that Luffy's speed and durability isn't increasing over the arcs


I suppose current base Luffy is only as fast and durable as Marinford or Alabasta Luffy

 

[john ellis]

ok g5 luffy speed blitz and 1 shots kata in many many ways... but even if he doesn't speed blitz kata for some.... reason he's atleast as fast as him monkey god fists him, which good luck dodging or tanking. Also how does kata harm g5 luffy? g5 luffy can take tank kaido attacks extremely well, like g5 luffy is just so so so so above kata it's not even close. but yes how does g5 luffy outpace base luffy, well simple he moves faster and just does. He also can use future sight in g5 clearly he just didn.t Nor would future sight matter, g5 luffy is just so much stronger then base luffy. May i remind you monkey god fist punched kaido from the middle of the sky into the lava of earth's core. Kaido is a fucking unbeatable yonko who'se immunie to basically everything. Imagine someone like kata being hit by that. It's also the size of a small island, how do you dodge it?

also your post above is simple being weakend by battle doesn't matter much people still hit as hard when there weakened it's always been the case look at final attacks, they're always the strongest no matter how much damage people have taken. Kaido being weakened by damage doesn't reduce his AP power or speed. Hybrid kaido> kaido so yes kaido has to try harder to hit post udon luffy also i believe there was another yonko making it harder to dodge attacks with kaido.

also no aCoC boosts durabillity aswell, look at the yonko. aCoC+g5 luffy is probably untouchable from anyone yc1 and below.