One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[XXGenesis]

Learn when to leave stubborn ppl be. After so many pages of trying to reason, just agree to disagree.

The ambiguity of Oda’s illustration of haki & lack of content of a concrete fundamental explanation of haki. Results in such passionate debates.

 

[Core D. Roy]

Udon was probably luffy's biggest training arc in the entire story as much as you want to hate it.

Not the two years being personally tutored by the right hand of the Pirate King, no, it was working out for a couple weeks in a prison. That arc was there so Luffy could learn a special form of armament haki, he didn't become x1000 faster lifting rocks.

 

[Rein Avara]

Can we move on from this topic, I've forgotten what we were initially debating in the first place.

Post your closing arguments and move on to another topic!

 

[BlackTiger]

THIS IS KAIDO AT HIS WEAKEST (post fighting everyone and having no time to recover)

BECAUSE KAIDO IS AT HIS WEAKEST HIS MOVES ARE WEAKER TOO. HENCE THIS IS KAIDOS WEAKEST ATTACK OF THE FIGHT

Yeah that's Kaido's strongest attack. Dealing 100000 damage at his weakest still higher damage than Roaring Thunder Bagua. At his strongest it would deal 2000000000000 damage. So what's your point?

You still have not answered if Luffy did not get speed/durability boost when he fought Katakuri/Doflamingo then why do you insist Luffy got speed/durability boost when he fought Kaido?

 

[Rein Avara]

@DeadlyBeast @BlackTiger, we're getting no where with this topic, it's fine to have differing opinions on the manga. Please can we move on to another topic, the walls of text are surely getting annoying for everyone.

Topic: Who's stronger Current day admirals or Prime Garp & Sengoku? Elaborate on the why.

 

[BlackTiger]

@DeadlyBeast @BlackTiger, we're getting no where with this topic, it's fine to have differing opinions on the manga. Please can we move on to another topic, the walls of text are surely getting annoying for everyone.

Topic: Who's stronger Current day admirals or Prime Garp & Sengoku? Elaborate on the why.

Just make a thread if Luffy got faster/more durable when he fought kaido then tag us so we can debate there. Move our posts from this thread to that thread as well.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

@DeadlyBeast @BlackTiger, we're getting no where with this topic, it's fine to have differing opinions on the manga. Please can we move on to another topic, the walls of text are surely getting annoying for everyone.

Topic: Who's stronger Current day admirals or Prime Garp & Sengoku? Elaborate on the why.

I actually also would like to add another topic, Prime Oden with some training vs current Kaido?

 

[Rein Avara]

Just make a thread if Luffy got faster/more durable when he fought kaido then tag us so we can debate there. Move our posts from this thread to that thread as well.

You're free to create a thread yourself like everyone else, I'll move the posts when that's done

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 27, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 27, 2022 ---

Moderator Notice:

Suggested Topics:

1. Prime Oden with some training vs current Kaido?
2. Who's stronger Current day admirals or Prime Garp & Sengoku? Elaborate on the why.

~ Ēsu Taichou

 

[grey matter]

Topic: Who's stronger Current day admirals or Prime Garp & Sengoku? Elaborate on the why.

Prime Garp was as strong as prime WB and Roger.
Roger considered prime Sengoku a significant threat.

Old Whitebeard (in meds):
- still had conqueror's haki on par with Shanks, arguably the strongest conqueror's haki user alive.
- had "always on" observation haki, which allowed him to no diff Ace, who back then was at least as strong as Jinbe
- was considered by pretty much everyone as the strongest pirate.
Prime Garp ~ Prime WB > Old WB (in meds) > other Yonkos.

IMO, current day admirals scale to Yonkos. Akainu maybe on that level or slightly stronger (I'm considering Akainu also amongst "modern day admirals").
The rest of the admirals slightly weaker.

So, IMO prime Garp was definitely stronger than all the current admirals, and the margin isn't small.

As for prime Sengoku, we don't know how strong he was. He was never directly compared to anyone. But the fact that Roger considered him strong enough to be a legit threat, suggests he was definitely strong. I'd say, probably as strong as Kaido or Akainu at least, and stronger than every other modern admiral for sure.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 27, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 27, 2022 ---

I actually also would like to add another topic, Prime Oden with some training vs current Kaido?

IMO, Kaido would've won with extreme diff even 20 years ago.

They were both at their peak (or very close to their peak) then anyway, since both in their late 30s.
So, I'd not expect a significant increase in power level.

Since they were relative then, I'd expect the levels to be relative even after 20 years if Oden had survived.
Since I think Kaido back then would've extreme diff'd Oden, I think current Kaido would still extreme diff the hypothetical Oden who survived.

 

[HereNThere]

Prime Oden with some training vs current Kaido?

It's really hard to say. I think it depends on how far you think Kaido 20 years ago was in strength from the current Kaido. I'm slowly realizing that Kaido may have been close to his peak 20 years ago, which just doesn't feel right for some reason to me, but it is likely true. If that is true, then the fight would likely still be close. However, as it stands, Kaido's feats blow Oden's out of the water, so I'm leaning towards him.

Who's stronger Current day admirals or Prime Garp & Sengoku? Elaborate on the why.

Given the implications so far, I feel like Garp and, to a lesser extent, Sengoku in their Prime were probably on another level when compared to those three. Same as Roger and WB being on another level compared to the Yonkou. Roger and Primebeard just seem to be the gold standard in the series and surpassing them has been something hyped up to be pretty nigh impossible, and we have both Garp and Sengoku as the only ones that were able to fight with them back in the day, going by their own words.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

IMO, Kaido would've won with extreme diff even 20 years ago.

They were both at their peak (or very close to their peak) then anyway, since both in their late 30s.
So, I'd not expect a significant increase in power level.

Since they were relative then, I'd expect the levels to be relative even after 20 years if Oden had survived.
Since I think Kaido back then would've extreme diff'd Oden, I think current Kaido would still extreme diff the hypothetical Oden who survived.

I think Kaido would have ended up winning too since that's the way Oda wanted it to go for the plot. I just didn't like the way it ended which implied Kaido only won because of a cheat. From seeing Luffy's fight with Kaido, at their level they need to be durable enough to handle a hit like that. Both Kaido and Luffy showed that being hit with powerful aCoC attacks aren't full one hit KOs by the end of it. I want Oden to have a shot at this fight again without any distractions in the current period, especially after getting some training time in to catch up to any growth Kaido has made in the past 20 years. I know its a fantasy but hey maybe once OP is over they will go back and flesh out things like this.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 27, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 27, 2022 ---

It's really hard to say. I think it depends on how far you think Kaido 20 years ago was in strength from the current Kaido. I'm slowly realizing that Kaido may have been close to his peak 20 years ago, which just doesn't feel right for some reason to me, but it is likely true. If that is true, then the fight would likely still be close. However, as it stands, Kaido's feats blow Oden's out of the water, so I'm leaning towards him.

I think that fight just wasn't done justice since Oda didn't showcase much from either of them, mainly to not spoil Kaido's attacks, hybrid form etc. However, since it was a high diff fight for Kaido back then I feel if we got a rematch today we'd get a much more epic fight. I do think Kaido may win again but I was wondering if Oden wasn't at his peak yet. Haki and technique get better with time and both Kaido and Oden were young (by OP standards) so they may have had enough room to grow that would change the outcome. Like who has the higher potential, Kaido or Oden?

 

[kkck]

It's really hard to say. I think it depends on how far you think Kaido 20 years ago was in strength from the current Kaido. I'm slowly realizing that Kaido may have been close to his peak 20 years ago, which just doesn't feel right for some reason to me, but it is likely true. If that is true, then the fight would likely still be close. However, as it stands, Kaido's feats blow Oden's out of the water, so I'm leaning towards him.



Given the implications so far, I feel like Garp and, to a lesser extent, Sengoku in their Prime were probably on another when compared to those three. Same as Roger and WB being on another level compared to the Yonkou. Roger and Primebeard just seem to be the gold standard in the series and surpassing them has been something hyped up to be pretty nigh impossible, and we have both Garp and Sengoku as the only ones that were able to fight with them back in the day, going by their own words.

Kaido was 39 when he confronted oden and won against him. That's an age at which characters have not exactly peaked yet. Kaido is an oni so his lifespan and how he ages is unclear but if its comparable to humans then he had at least just over a decade to reach his peak, maybe somewhat longer, and then perhaps just over a decade to stay at said peak. Ultimately I think it's a fair assumption that current kaido was at his absolute strongest possible and he grew stronger since then. Even oden told kaido to grow stronger. I wish the series had been more explicit on whether oden and kaido knew cladding during their confrontation.

To me it always sounded incredible that both garp and sengoku could have gone toe to toe with WB an roger. However garp is mentioned as someone roger would want to fight while he completely ignores oden during their short confrontation. I suppose they could have been stronger back then but in turn the ocean was more chaotic for their power to have turned the tide in favor of the marines. Their age seems to have had more people closer to roger and wb tbh. A lot of xebec's crew had people that would be dangerous them, presumably. And those in rocks probably weren't the only monsters around. From rocks of course came the big powers which would eventually come to control the new world. And the yonko went unchallenged for the better part of nearly 3 decades. What it looks like now is that the previous age was more chaotic and from it came the great age of piracy where the yonko became centralizing forces.

 

[Fox666]

However garp is mentioned as someone roger would want to fight while he completely ignores oden during their short confrontation.

No he didn't

If anything, Roger reaction proved Oden was something

 

[kkck]

No he didn't

If anything, Roger reaction proved Oden was something

I mean, oden was brushed aside and roger immediately focused on WB.

 

[Core D. Roy]

I mean, oden was brushed aside and roger immediately focused on WB.

Whitebeard did the older sibling equivalent of snatching the controller away from the little sibling because they're not playing the game right. Roger's interest in Oden and acknowledgement of his power was clearly there to inform the reader that Oden is crazy strong, but ain't nobody stacking up to the challenge of the World's Strongest Man in his prime.

I do think Oden could have defeated Kaidou without Higurashi's interference, but I have to wonder if Kaidou had his full arsenal back then. I seriously doubt he had access to Flame Dragon Torch back then, since that's apparently the pinnacle of his current power. One has to wonder just how high Oden's "ceiling" would go in the intervening decades after his death though. I have no reason to believe Oden wouldn't have kept pace with Kaidou at least.

 

[kkck]

Whitebeard did the older sibling equivalent of snatching the controller away from the little sibling because they're not playing the game right. Roger's interest in Oden and acknowledgement of his power was clearly there to inform the reader that Oden is crazy strong, but ain't nobody stacking up to the challenge of the World's Strongest Man in his prime.

I do think Oden could have defeated Kaidou without Higurashi's interference, but I have to wonder if Kaidou had his full arsenal back then. I seriously doubt he had access to Flame Dragon Torch back then, since that's apparently the pinnacle of his current power. One has to wonder just how high Oden's "ceiling" would go in the intervening decades after his death though. I have no reason to believe Oden wouldn't have kept pace with Kaidou at least.

Maybe? Roger's interest in fighting oden didn't last long anyways.

What I dislike about how this played out... is that kaido effectively took out oden in a single hit. Isn't that... lackluster? The supernova were able to take multiple hits from kaido, and this 20 years later. Oden also made the point that he had basically peaked, though its unclear whether he had cladding at that point.

 

[Fox666]

I mean, oden was brushed aside and roger immediately focused on WB.

Because Whitebeard was there

 

[albertwv]

So I don't think the current admirals can match up versus Prime Garp and Sengoku. It would be a high diff. I wish Oda would mention Zephyr in the manga as well and also the 3rd unknown Admiral during Roger's era. We know Sengoku, Zephyr were the admirals, with Kong being the Fleet Admiral, we're just missing one more admiral. Not that it is relevant but I would like to know.

 

[M3J]

Akainu is probably the only one that comes the closest to matching prime Garp and Sengoku, but makeups matter.

 

[grey matter]

I think Kaido would have ended up winning too since that's the way Oda wanted it to go for the plot. I just didn't like the way it ended which implied Kaido only won because of a cheat. From seeing Luffy's fight with Kaido, at their level they need to be durable enough to handle a hit like that. Both Kaido and Luffy showed that being hit with powerful aCoC attacks aren't full one hit KOs by the end of it. I want Oden to have a shot at this fight again without any distractions in the current period, especially after getting some training time in to catch up to any growth Kaido has made in the past 20 years. I know its a fantasy but hey maybe once OP is over they will go back and flesh out things like this.

I think the "cheat" was a plot point that Oda wanted to use. It served the following purposes:
- give Kaido PTSD of now being allowed to fight an enemy all out. Which played out again versus Luffy
- Purposefully create room for multiple interpretations, and preserve the legend of Oden. If Kaido straight up won against Oden, then the legend and the hope that citizens of Wano held onto, would've had less meaning and impact

IMO: Oden would've been a bit stronger than base Kaido, and a bit weaker than hybrid Kaido.

No he didn't

If anything, Roger reaction proved Oden was something

Ehh, Oden would've been more of a match for Rayleigh than Roger.
Roger's poker face suggest that it's just him wanting to face Oden who was strong, so he was just making poor excuses that Rayleigh immediately called out.

It thematically makes sense. The "partner" of Roger, vs the "brother" of Whitebeard. These two have similar narrative/portrayal.

And this would kinda make sense feat wise as well. A retired and drunkard old Rayleigh, was almost a match for Kizaru (they were equal in combat, but Rayleigh was lacking in stamina).
It makes sense that peak Rayleigh would be as strong or slightly stronger than Oden, who was almost a match for Kaido.