One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[grey matter]

is this a real argument ?
you're right no need to continue this if you think fujitora got tired from running around

Yes.
Cause there was pretty much no fighting involved at all. There was just Fujitora lifting stuff and running around, and that's about it.
So, he either got tired by running around, or by lifting up all the rubble.

Your arguments are straight up flawed and laughable. You think Fujitora would even remotely struggle against Dresrossa Luffy, when Greenbull, his equal, just stomped King and Queen and found it insulting at even the thought that "mere commanders" could do jackshit to him. Yeah, King and Queen weren't at 100% likely, but the portrayal is quite clear.
Fujitora ~Greenbull >> King >>> Dresrossa Luffy

 

[Fox666]

Fujitora was literally panting after that attack. how can you confidently say that.

Wasn't Fujitora just acting weird because Luffy was calling his attacks beforehand?

 

[mood]

Yes.
Cause there was pretty much no fighting involved at all. There was just Fujitora lifting stuff and running around, and that's about it.
So, he either got tired by running around, or by lifting up all the rubble.

that's just untrue why do you keep ignoring facts just to suit your agenda.
so he didn't use an attack called raging tiger that leveled a mountain, against luffy after which he started panting?

Your arguments are straight up flawed and laughable. You think Fujitora would even remotely struggle against Dresrossa Luffy, when Greenbull, his equal, just stomped King and Queen and found it insulting at even the thought that "mere commanders" could do jackshit to him. Yeah, King and Queen weren't at 100% likely, but the portrayal is quite clear.
Fujitora ~Greenbull >> King >>> Dresrossa Luffy

i've never said he struggled. you're the one saying it
you straight up said fujitora didn't even remotely try against luffy , and i showed you a panel where he absolutely 100% did actually try.
and luffy was fine, unlike when G4 luffy first fought big mom and then kaido
here again.

 

[grey matter]

that's just untrue why do you keep ignoring facts just to suit your agenda.
so he didn't use an attack called raging tiger that leveled a mountain, against luffy after which he started panting?




i've never said he struggled. you're the one saying it
you straight up said fujitora didn't even remotely try against luffy , and i showed you a panel where he absolutely 100% did actually try.
and luffy was fine, unlike when G4 luffy first fought big mom and then kaido
here again.

"I've never said Fujitora struggled"
"Fujitora actually tried against Luffy. He is huffing and puffing"

Ok, which is it? These are mutually exclusive.
You're the one here arguing that Fujitora tried, and trying to make implication about admiral vs Yonkos from this. Not me.


Lol, him using raging tiger on some mountain isn't him "fighting" with Luffy.
Again, where is the dude ever actually fighting against Luffy? There is Luffy and his allies fleeing, with Fujitora "chasing" (where he likely wanted them to escape anyway). That's about it.

 

[Fox666]

Yes.
Cause there was pretty much no fighting involved at all. There was just Fujitora lifting stuff and running around, and that's about it.
So, he either got tired by running around, or by lifting up all the rubble.

Your arguments are straight up flawed and laughable. You think Fujitora would even remotely struggle against Dresrossa Luffy, when Greenbull, his equal, just stomped King and Queen and found it insulting at even the thought that "mere commanders" could do jackshit to him. Yeah, King and Queen weren't at 100% likely, but the portrayal is quite clear.
Fujitora ~Greenbull >> King >>> Dresrossa Luffy

I'm sure Luffy was already commander-level when he fought Doflamingo... maybe not as strong as King, but the difference wasn't that big.

If the Admirals are on the level of Emperors, the difference will be massive

Admirals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> King > Dressrosa Luffy

 

[catagon87]

they weren't close to beating her is my opinion based on her final condition and the way she was taken out of the fight, she wasn't beaten only removed from the fight.
the same way when she fell into the water and lost consciousness when king kicked her ship.
all damage done to her including the broken ribs were quickly nullified due to her ability she regained her bones and health back.

Must be why she's no longer a Yonko. Because she "wasn't beaten, only removed from the fight."

She got destroyed. IDK why anyone would even argue this point. She nearly got knocked off Onigashima into the ocean from the get-go. She had her bones broken, and internal injuries that required her to take lifespan to heal. Then she had to sacrifice an entire year of her life-span to power up against them. That's before Law rendered her classic "Soul Pocus" technique useless by silencing her, and Kidd used a rail gun to blast her through the ground into Wano with a load of explosives. She was unconscious when Kaido was knocked into Wano; How do I know that you might ask? Because she can use her homies to fly, and I HIGHLY doubt she'd of spent the remainder of that arc chilling in a crater if she had any other option. Especially once the magma started flowing.

She was defeated. Her firstborn was defeated. Cracker was defeated. Katakuri was defeated. Her sole ownership of one of the Road Poneglyphs is gone as Luffy has a rubbing now. Her plan to experiment on the Germa's Niji and Yonji failed as Reiju and Ichiji were able to infiltrate Tottoland and free them. Her crew never even managed to climb the Waterfall.

She. Was. Defeated.

 

[john ellis]

Err luffy wasn’t really commander level until the end of desrossa and he was very low end yc3, he struggled vs cracker after desrossa. Crazy how that was more or less 2 arcs ago and luffy would proabbly 1 shot doffy right now

 

[kkck]

So far the implication is that a single emperor is just about enough to decimate armies. Big mom could have potentially defeated all of her crew (though I am of the idea that the combined crew could have actually eventually won). Kaido defeated the scabbards, then duked it out with multiple supernova, then luffy, then yamato, then luffy again... I am not sure if any scabbard would have defeated king but several of them were in the ballpark of jack at least, maybe even queen...

People need to consider how immense a disadvantage the WB pirates were at during the war. The WB pirates' objective was to get to where ace was to save him. The marines gathered every conceivable resource at their disposal to put as many barriers as they could between ace and the WB. This was by all intents and purposes a battle of attrition and every single step the WB pirates took forward was set up so that the marines could bombard them from above while duking it out with elite marines and every trap they could manage. The war could have ended sooner regardless of how yonko level anyone is or isn't had the massive iron wall capable of resisting WB's quakes had not been impeded by oar's stupidity. Even assuming the WB could have overcome that wall through other means it would have been after god knows how much time of the marines having absolute freedom to bombard the WB pirates without them having any immediate path to relaliate or defend themselves.

I mean, imagine the admirals being actual matches to yonko in their prime... the marines having THREE of them... And the marines not winning this in half an hour. 1 admiral keeps WB at way, the other two take a light stroll decimating everything while supported by VAs and such.

 

[grey matter]

I'm sure Luffy was already commander-level when he fought Doflamingo... maybe not as strong as King, but the difference wasn't that big.

If the Admirals are on the level of Emperors, the difference will be massive

Admirals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> King > Dressrosa Luffy

Luffy was YC3 level in Dresrossa arc. But there is a massive PL difference between YC1 and YC3.

Katakuri completely curb stomped this version of Luffy. Like, he got no-low diff'd
Luffy had to grow non stop for many hours, to eventually be comparable to Katakuri.

With King, the difference would even be more stark. Because, King is pure stats, with Katakuri Luffy could at least learn future sight and hope to do something to him.
King can just allow Luffy free hits, and he wouldn't do jackshit to him, considering he was taking no damage from attacks which even hurt Kaido. Hell, Dresrossa arc Luffy will probably lose to just recoil from hitting King lmao. King can explode upon contact, Luffy punch him and eventually KO's himself


But yeah, agree that admirals are on a different level from King too.

Admiral >>> King >>> Dresrossa Luffy

 

[mood]

"I've never said Fujitora struggled"
"Fujitora actually tried against Luffy. He is huffing and puffing"

Ok, which is it? These are mutually exclusive.
You're the one here arguing that Fujitora tried, and trying to make implication about admiral vs Yonkos from this. Not me.


Lol, him using raging tiger on some mountain isn't him "fighting" with Luffy.
Again, where is the dude ever actually fighting against Luffy? There is Luffy and his allies fleeing, with Fujitora "chasing" (where he likely wanted them to escape anyway). That's about it.

again if you're not convinced then fine but don't deny the facts. it's oda's work not mine.
he didn't use raging tiger on some mountain ,he used it on luffy

again luffy received an attack from fujitora> he was fine and ready to continue fighting!
G4 luffy received an attack from big mom> he was done! and lost consiousness.
G4 luffy received an attack from kaido> he was done! and lost consiousness.

i didn't say fujitora struggled, all i'm saying dressrosa luffy survived his attack
how is this so hard to understand for you?

Admirals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> King > Dressrosa Luffy

i love how everyone is hyped because of an off screen fight. it must be a big deal beating a bunch of recovering commanders in prison.
we still don't know the full situation of what happened.
were king and queen fighting 100% with no hindrance?
if so why are they in prison? and why are they in their base form?
and if they're not in prison , why is babanuki there with them

 

[LadyVados]

Roger most likely is treated as a swordsman by Oda. The thing is though, Mihawk has the title of WSS when Roger isn't alive now. He was in his teens when Roger died and nowhere close to his peak, so pretty sure he didn't get his title when Roger was still alive.

Mihawk also outright admitted that the title of the pirate king is harder than WSS.

The best that can be reasonably argued is that Mihawk > Shanks. Not only because Shanks is a swordsman, also because Mihawk lost interest in Shanks after he lost his arm.

But the thing is that Oda is highly unlikely to make the deuteragonist of his manga whose dream is to be the strongest swordsman in the world, anything less than the strongest swordsman ever. Ichigo became the strongest soul reaper ever, Naruto became the strongest ninja ever, etc.

It is possible Zoro beats Mihawk mid-high diff or Mihawk is actually stronger than we think or Zoro fights someone after Mihawk (Gandhi Gorosei ?) and evolves even further or we get aliens from the moon who can neg diff Yonkos. The possibilities are endless.

I just can't see there being a swordsman stronger than Zoro literally one year before he was born. That ruins his whole dream. Imagine if Zoro only became WSS because Roger died or there's no Roger level swordsman around in this era... the champion of a weak era, a vulture.

 

[shailks]

But the thing is that Oda is highly unlikely to make the deuteragonist of his manga whose dream is to be the strongest swordsman in the world, anything less than the strongest swordsman ever. Ichigo became the strongest soul reaper ever, Naruto became the strongest ninja ever, etc.

It is possible Zoro beats Mihawk mid-high diff or Mihawk is actually stronger than we think or Zoro fights someone after Mihawk (Gandhi Gorosei ?) and evolves even further or we get aliens from the moon who can neg diff Yonkos. The possibilities are endless.

I just can't see there being a swordsman stronger than Zoro literally one year before he was born. That ruins his whole dream. Imagine if Zoro only became WSS because Roger died or there's no Roger level swordsman around in this era... the champion of a weak era, a vulture.

yes i think eos Luffy is simply going at a level where he is peerless. And being his #2, Zoro can theoretically fit anywhere between Luffy and the strongest swordsman ever before him, be it Mihawk, Roger or whoever, in pure combat terms that is.

 

[grey matter]

But the thing is that Oda is highly unlikely to make the deuteragonist of his manga whose dream is to be the strongest swordsman in the world, anything less than the strongest swordsman ever. Ichigo became the strongest soul reaper ever, Naruto became the strongest ninja ever, etc.

It is possible Zoro beats Mihawk mid-high diff or Mihawk is actually stronger than we think or Zoro fights someone after Mihawk (Gandhi Gorosei ?) and evolves even further or we get aliens from the moon who can neg diff Yonkos. The possibilities are endless.

I just can't see there being a swordsman stronger than Zoro literally one year before he was born. That ruins his whole dream. Imagine if Zoro only became WSS because Roger died or there's no Roger level swordsman around in this era... the champion of a weak era, a vulture.

I think Oda has (IMO deliberately) created some wiggle room when it comes to PK vs WSS title.
Was Roger a swordsman? Undoubtedly. He placed so much importance for his sword and swordsmanship, that he named his own son after his sword. But, what is the dude's title? He is known as the Pirate King. Not the WSS back during his time, even though he undoubtedly was also the WSS back when he was alive.
Point being, the title of PK takes precedence over the title of WSS. If Roger didn't becomes the PK, he probably would've been given a title like WSS back in his days.

Now, does Zoro necessarily have to surpass Roger for his dream? No. Because the current WSS is Mihawk. For Zoro's dream to be satisfied, all he needs is to be the WSS of his lifetime, not necessarily of all time.

Another reason why I don't think it will happen, is because surpassing Roger is something left for EOS Luffy to accomplish. I don't think Oda will have anyone else surpass Roger.

All that being said, I'm not saying your route is narratively invalid. Just that, I think the chances are low. If Oda indeed goes that route and declare EOS Zoro as the strongest swordsman of all time, I will agree that Zoro surpassed Roger.

yes i think eos Luffy is simply going at a level where he is peerless. And being his #2, Zoro can theoretically fit anywhere between Luffy and the strongest swordsman ever before him, be it Mihawk, Roger or whoever, in pure combat terms that is.

Theoretically, yes.
We know EOS Luffy will be stronger than Roger. Oda can have EOS Zoro between EOS Luffy and Roger, and still maintain the relative portrayal dynamics of Luffy forever > Zoro.

It just comes down to whether Oda will do it or not.

I think not, because I think there is a ceiling to power creep.
Roger, peak WB and peak Garp (and Rocks too I guess) are kinda treated as the theoretical maximum of the power than can be achieved in the OP verse (with possible exception of Imu, who may be some kind of demi God). It is meant for those with highest potential in the verse.
This is why the current Yonkos aren't that level, because their potential/will isn't up there with those guys.

In the current generation, I think those with that potential are just Luffy and Ace (maybe Blackbeard too, but moreso with the route of stealing DF than earning).
I think Zoro will hit his ceiling at Yonko level (i.e Mihawk/Shanks level). Won't be unhappy if I end up being wrong, since Zoro is my fav strawhat, but this is what I think.

 

[shailks]

I think Oda has (IMO deliberately) created some wiggle room when it comes to PK vs WSS title.
Was Roger a swordsman? Undoubtedly. He placed so much importance for his sword and swordsmanship, that he named his own son after his sword. But, what is the dude's title? He is known as the Pirate King. Not the WSS back during his time, even though he undoubtedly was also the WSS back when he was alive.
Point being, the title of PK takes precedence over the title of WSS. If Roger didn't becomes the PK, he probably would've been given a title like WSS back in his days.

Now, does Zoro necessarily have to surpass Roger for his dream? No. Because the current WSS is Mihawk. For Zoro's dream to be satisfied, all he needs is to be the WSS of his lifetime, not necessarily of all time.

Another reason why I don't think it will happen, is because surpassing Roger is something left for EOS Luffy to accomplish. I don't think Oda will have anyone else surpass Roger.

All that being said, I'm not saying your route is narratively invalid. Just that, I think the chances are low. If Oda indeed goes that route and declare EOS Zoro as the strongest swordsman of all time, I will agree that Zoro surpassed Roger.



Theoretically, yes.
We know EOS Luffy will be stronger than Roger. Oda can have EOS Zoro between EOS Luffy and Roger, and still maintain the relative portrayal dynamics of Luffy forever > Zoro.

It just comes down to whether Oda will do it or not.

I think not, because I think there is a ceiling to power creep.
Roger, peak WB and peak Garp (and Rocks too I guess) are kinda treated as the theoretical maximum of the power than can be achieved in the OP verse (with possible exception of Imu, who may be some kind of demi God). It is meant for those with highest potential in the verse.
This is why the current Yonkos aren't that level, because their potential/will isn't up there with those guys.

In the current generation, I think those with that potential are just Luffy and Ace (maybe Blackbeard too, but moreso with the route of stealing DF than earning).
I think Zoro will hit his ceiling at Yonko level (i.e Mihawk/Shanks level). Won't be unhappy if I end up being wrong, since Zoro is my fav strawhat, but this is what I think.

Agreed and Oda will need to create a very compelling situation if he decides to show Zoro has indeed gone past everyone but Luffy.

For instance if all the battles moving forward were just stronger Yonkou groups, zoro would always end up fighting VC1s. However, if it’s a group of admirals combined with yet unknown foes and zoro is forced to take on two admiral levels foes at the same time, then you could make a case that he is indeed a class above everyone else (including Roger).

You are right we don’t have enough baddies left that we know who could rival Roger one on one.

 

[Fox666]

Agreed and Oda will need to create a very compelling situation if he decides to show Zoro has indeed gone past everyone but Luffy.

After the bullshit powerscaling in Wano?

As far we know, Zoro may go from getting bullied by Shilliew to kicking Yonko ass within a few chapters

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

But the thing is that Oda is highly unlikely to make the deuteragonist of his manga whose dream is to be the strongest swordsman in the world, anything less than the strongest swordsman ever. Ichigo became the strongest soul reaper ever, Naruto became the strongest ninja ever, etc.

It is possible Zoro beats Mihawk mid-high diff or Mihawk is actually stronger than we think or Zoro fights someone after Mihawk (Gandhi Gorosei ?) and evolves even further or we get aliens from the moon who can neg diff Yonkos. The possibilities are endless.

I just can't see there being a swordsman stronger than Zoro literally one year before he was born. That ruins his whole dream. Imagine if Zoro only became WSS because Roger died or there's no Roger level swordsman around in this era... the champion of a weak era, a vulture.

One Zoro really isn’t the deurotagonist of the manga lmao, Zoro fans kill me . Maybe that arguemenr could be somewhat made pre timekskop , but post timeskip law and sanji deffs affect and are more active story wise ( sanji literally has more panel time in the manga despite showing up after Zoro ) Zoro isn’t sasuke or DBS vegeta in regard to story
One again Zoro said his goal is mihawk to surpass mihawk not to be the strongest swordsman ever he is specific . Zoro all through the series : my goal is mihawk
You know why those characters you mentioned became the strongest ever because they were the MAIN characters , that slip is interesting cause it shows how you view Zoro

 

[LadyVados]

One again Zoro said his goal is mihawk to surpass mihawk

This is nonsense. Zoro's goal isn't to be the guy who beats Mihawk, it's to be the strongest swordsman. If tomorrow Donkey Kong beats Mihawk in swordsmanship, Zoro's goal will be to beat Donkey Kong.

 

[Fox666]

One Zoro really isn’t the deurotagonist of the manga lmao, Zoro fans kill me . Maybe that arguemenr could be somewhat made pre timekskop , but post timeskip law and sanji deffs affect and are more active story wise ( sanji literally has more panel time in the manga despite showing up after Zoro ) Zoro isn’t sasuke or DBS vegeta in regard to story
One again Zoro said his goal is mihawk to surpass mihawk not to be the strongest swordsman ever he is specific . Zoro all through the series : my goal is mihawk
You know why those characters you mentioned became the strongest ever because they were the MAIN characters , that slip is interesting cause it shows how you view Zoro

Officially, Zoro and Nami are the main characters after Luffy

I also think that besides these 3, Sanji, Usopp and Chopper are also clearly given more importance than the rest...

 

[grey matter]

Officially, Zoro and Nami are the main characters after Luffy

I also think that besides these 3, Usopp and Chopper are also clearly given more importance than the rest...

Levels, In terms of importance, Sanji is given more importance than Chopper for sure.

L1: Luffy
L2: Zoro
L3: Nami
L4: Sanji/Ussop
L5: Chopper/Robin
L6: Franky/Brook
L7: Jinbe
L8: Vivi (?)/Yamato (?)

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 18, 2022, Original Post Date: Jul 18, 2022 ---

One again Zoro said his goal is mihawk to surpass mihawk not to be the strongest swordsman ever he is specific . Zoro all through the series : my goal is mihawk
You know why those characters you mentioned became the strongest ever because they were the MAIN characters , that slip is interesting cause it shows how you view Zoro

Yeah, don't think he said he wanted to be the strongest swordsman ever in history.

But he definitely wants to be the strongest swordsman currently alive.
He goes after Mihawk only because Mihawk is that.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Officially, Zoro and Nami are the main characters after Luffy

I also think that besides these 3, Usopp and Chopper are also clearly given more importance than the rest...

Oda said they were the main after sky walk 1 you know when not even sanji and ussop had hopped on board
Context of conversations matter
We are 980 chapters removed from such statement the manga has evolved a lot since then