Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.
It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.
For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.
As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.
This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.
According to the internet at least (specifically wikipedia though):
"According to Shinji Shimizu, a staff of Toei Animation and producer of One Piece anime, One Piece Film: Red is the only One Piece film that Eiichiro Oda has actively participated the most. Oda is the executive producer, character designer, and also the script reviewer of the film."
The bare minimum for the film to be canon would be oda going way out of his way to irrefutably state the film is canon to the story and that it's perfectly clear where in the story it fits into. Otherwise it should be treated the same as your generic OP filler or worst.
I disagree with anyone that makes this point. I believe Oda was giving us Parallels between the 2 Yonkou fights. Law/Kidd Vs Big Mom…Luffy vs Kaido.
Luffy unlocking ACoC & fighting Kaido in G4 while you had Law/Kidd using Awakening to fight BM; Oda imo was trying to portray the new boost still weren’t enough. Luffy lost in the end interference or not…Kidd/Law only won because of PIS; Very very very circumstantial advantage to remove BigMom from the battle field for good; They had nothing left to continue such a fight effectively, as their crew mates had to defend them later on.
Interesting enough. The Top tier has a solid 13 Characters who are Yonkou/Admiral Tier.
With another 10+ Characters Which only Official title to give them is YC1 but they are credible threats to the Top tier due to feats & hype.
But... what PIS caused big mom to lose against kidd and law? Big mom had a somewhat lackluster showing when she was fighting alongside kaido but she didn't make any agregious mistakes when fighting law and kidd iirc. Law and kidd simply overpowered her when their awakenings came into play. Even kid, whom before awakening didn't seem to be doing anything to big mom, managed to cause meaningful damage AND consistently took attacks from her.
Thought it'd be best to just pop this over to the Power Level thread given the direction the discussion was going and to which I was going to contribute.
Regarding Film Red, Oda reviewed the script, but that is a far cry from actually writing it. The only part of Film Red we should be taking as canon is the Film Red supplementary material in Volume 4 Billion, which we know is from Oda directly. We should not take the film as gospel like the manga. Keep in mind that the last movie Oda had similar involvement with was Strong World, which had pre-time skip Luffy taking out Shiki. The same Shiki who was not only one of Roger's rivals, but we now know is a former member of the Rox Pirates. Luffy had no business fighting that man.
Now, as for Kidd and Law vs Big Mom, I'd say circumstances played heavily into their victory (and Luffy's as well). Big Mom was far from out after taking their two final attacks and was still ready to fight. The fact that they had to knock her off the island is evidence enough for me to say that Oda never intended for them to beat her outright. The main point of that fight was to show that they were capable enough and had the willpower to stand against her as they did. The bombs weren't there to end her, but to basically ensure she was blown off the island.
Luffy and the combo of Kidd and Law are now strong enough to take on top-tier opponents, but there is still room for growth in regards to them beating them on an even playing field. The latter two especially need to grow to even go toe to toe with individuals of that caliber solo, while Luffy has at least dipped a toe into the type of fight.
I disagree with anyone that makes this point. I believe Oda was giving us Parallels between the 2 Yonkou fights. Law/Kidd Vs Big Mom…Luffy vs Kaido.
Luffy unlocking ACoC & fighting Kaido in G4 while you had Law/Kidd using Awakening to fight BM; Oda imo was trying to portray the new boost still weren’t enough. Luffy lost in the end interference or not…Kidd/Law only won because of PIS; Very very very circumstantial advantage to remove BigMom from the battle field for good; They had nothing left to continue such a fight effectively, as their crew mates had to defend them later on.
Interesting enough. The Top tier has a solid 13 Characters who are Yonkou/Admiral Tier.
With another 10+ Characters Which only Official title to give them is YC1 but they are credible threats to the Top tier due to feats & hype.
I understand that how Oda wrote the fight is a bit vague, so there is room for valid disagreements there.
With Luffy, there is more of a case to be made for your argument IMO. Cause Kaido was in a gauntlet, non stop fighting. While Luffy got healed twice.
With Law/Kid however, it's a bit different IMO. Before law/kid vs BM. They got damaged in the rooftop fight, while Kaido was the one pretty much taking all the damage in rooftop, he got ganged up on. Kid also got stabbed and smacked due to Hawkins shenanigans. BM however, started the fight pretty much without any injuries.
We can at least agree that Law/Kid pushed BM to an extreme diff at minimum? If not, why?
Now, as for Kidd and Law vs Big Mom, I'd say circumstances played heavily into their victory (and Luffy's as well). Big Mom was far from out after taking their two attacks and was still ready to fight. The fact that they had to knock her off the island is evidence enough for me to say that Oda never intended for them to beat her outright. The main point of that fight was to show that they were capable enough and had the willpower to stand against her as they did. The bombs weren't there to end her, but to basically ensure she was blown off the island.
I think it's pretty likely that the bombs knocked big mom out. They were massive... and a fall alone is probably not going to do all that much to big mom. If she was conscious she could have probably resisted the lava at the pit and gotten out of there with whichever new homie.
I think it's pretty likely that the bombs knocked big mom out. They were massive... and a fall alone is probably not going to do all that much to big mom. If she was conscious she could have probably resisted the lava at the pit and gotten out of there with whichever new homie.
The explosion in the lava, sure, but I was moreso talking about the explosions inside Onigashima that went off when she was searching for a foothold, which I think were the bombs that are being referenced. Those bombs didn't harm her, but were the main reason she was blown out the bottom of the island.
The explosion in the lava, sure, but I was moreso talking about the explosions inside Onigashima that went off when she was searching for a foothold, which I think were the bombs that are being referenced. Those bombs didn't harm her, but were the main reason she was blown out the bottom of the island.
If you look at big mom as she was falling from onigashima the implication is pretty strong that the bombs actually did do some damage. At a minimum she had a pained expression through it. The bombs alone blew off a meaningful chunk of onigashima to begin with. They didn't knock her out of course but she absolutely felt that. And that was just a preview of what she took later when the rest of the bombs exploded as she fell.
He can shamble more than one person at a time. Law teleported all of the scabbards downstairs at the same time, and in this very scene he teleported everyone away from the attack at the same time, too, so Zoro did react and act before Law could use his shambles.
Just by taking into account the damage Zoro took from blocking it for a few seconds, all of them would have been massively injured or defeated right there. Zoro has always been portrayed as a huge tank (for his tier) and there's nothing to say Kid and much less Law are above him in physical resilience.
Feats are very iffy, more than ever, on Onigashima, but Oda did purposefully portray this combo attack in a very different light from the melee attacks they dish separately. Given its size and how massively it injured Zoro (broke almost all his bones just from trying to block it momentarily), it can be estimated that the attack was exponentially many times stronger than their average attacks (and certainly stronger than anything Law and Kid tanked from Big Mom, sadly, who didn't even bother using CoC on them).
Luffy was also pre-CoC imbuement in that scene, so he wasn't as tanky as he was later in that fight.
I do think roof piece would have ended right then and there had it not been for Zoro and Law. I do acknowledge that Zoro's efforts would have been for naught without Law using shambles, but Law wouldn't have been fast enough for it without Zoro.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Now that I think about it. I'll double down in this particular point: Most of the bones in Zoro's body broken from blocking momentarily. None of them would have stood up after taking it for real.
Also about Zoro being a huge tank, well I reread Baratie because I was looking for something regarding Zeff (would be funny if that Log Book is very similar to Oden's as looking back we'd think Krieg believing Zeff's log book could get him through the grand line was an entire joke and him underestimating the grand line but then again it might turn out to be bigger, as they said he sailed the grand line for a year unscathed. Would be funny if he's similar to crocus secretly. If so Oda would not reveal that so early. It is an aspect of Oda's style to leave the clues there then drop it on us later if it is that. I'm just not getting hopes up).
Interesting that arc really threw all the monster Trio's dreams in there at once. Notice the only dreams that were discussed in an arc that at one point featured Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Usopp and Sanji, were basically Luffy, Zoro and Sanji while Oda sent Usopp and Nami out of the arc basically. And I guess eventually Zoro (I'm not sure if he was there during the Krieg fight or left with the chase Nami crew) but not before Zoro's dreams were mentioned. So at least there definitely is a monster Trio. I just feel like Oda can skip this not making Sanji as important as the Supernova stuff now that his plot about having to be a mystery figure for WCI is done. I mean interestingly with Big Mom in Wano and the rooftop, Oda didn't even have any contact with Sanji and Big Mom, which is odd to me since he basically saved her kingdom or maybe it was because Big Mom's story isn't done or Sanji in relation to the Big Mom Pirates.
Anyway back to Zoro now, is the Mihawk thing a situation where he tanked and survived Mihawk's attack or rather that Mihawk said that he left Zoro alive. So again Zoro is alive because Mihawk chose to leave him that way.
BUT the Arlong thing does speak to his durability. The comments.
Which also randomly brings to my attention Luffy used a sword in that fight. Wonder if he gets one later on.
Anyway I wonder how durability ranks on the crew after Luffy basically (including Yamato).
If you look at big mom as she was falling from onigashima the implication is pretty strong that the bombs actually did do some damage. At a minimum she had a pained expression through it. The bombs alone blew off a meaningful chunk of onigashima to begin with. They didn't knock her out of course but she absolutely felt that. And that was just a preview of what she took later when the rest of the bombs exploded as she fell.
If you look at big mom as she was falling from onigashima the implication is pretty strong that the bombs actually did do some damage. At a minimum she had a pained expression through it. The bombs alone blew off a meaningful chunk of onigashima to begin with. They didn't knock her out of course but she absolutely felt that. And that was just a preview of what she took later when the rest of the bombs exploded as she fell.
No rest of the bombs exploded. Yamato protected them and they didn't fall. A single bomb exploded that pushed BM out. The rest was the volcanic eruption caused by Law.
Edit: It didn't really "push" Big Mom either. It's like she tried grabbing a balloon and it exploded. A fail on her part trying to prevent the fall.
Also about Zoro being a huge tank, well I reread Baratie because I was looking for something regarding Zeff (would be funny if that Log Book is very similar to Oden's as looking back we'd think Krieg believing Zeff's log book could get him through the grand line was an entire joke and him underestimating the grand line but then again it might turn out to be bigger, as they said he sailed the grand line for a year unscathed. Would be funny if he's similar to crocus secretly. If so Oda would not reveal that so early. It is an aspect of Oda's style to leave the clues there then drop it on us later if it is that. I'm just not getting hopes up).
Interesting that arc really threw all the monster Trio's dreams in there at once. Notice the only dreams that were discussed in an arc that at one point featured Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Usopp and Sanji, were basically Luffy, Zoro and Sanji while Oda sent Usopp and Nami out of the arc basically. And I guess eventually Zoro (I'm not sure if he was there during the Krieg fight or left with the chase Nami crew) but not before Zoro's dreams were mentioned. So at least there definitely is a monster Trio. I just feel like Oda can skip this not making Sanji as important as the Supernova stuff now that his plot about having to be a mystery figure for WCI is done. I mean interestingly with Big Mom in Wano and the rooftop, Oda didn't even have any contact with Sanji and Big Mom, which is odd to me since he basically saved her kingdom or maybe it was because Big Mom's story isn't done or Sanji in relation to the Big Mom Pirates.
Anyway back to Zoro now, is the Mihawk thing a situation where he tanked and survived Mihawk's attack or rather that Mihawk said that he left Zoro alive. So again Zoro is alive because Mihawk chose to leave him that way.
BUT the Arlong thing does speak to his durability. The comments.
Which also randomly brings to my attention Luffy used a sword in that fight. Wonder if he gets one later on.
Anyway I wonder how durability ranks on the crew after Luffy basically (including Yamato).
I have those arcs very fresh in my mind even though I haven't read them in years because they were the only ones I could buy for a long time before I started reading online, as a teenager.
Regarding Luffy, I don't think he'll ever get a sword seriously. Back then he only used one against Arlong to make the point that "he can't use it, just like he can't cook, shoot or navigate, and that's why he needs his crew to cover the fields that he lacks". That'll likely stay that way forever.
Regarding Zoro's tankiness, you're absolutely right about Zoro in those two arcs. He only survived Mihawk because Mihawk especifically wanted him to live. He left the arc before the Krieg fight resumed with Johnny and Yosaku. There's no feat there, but there absolutely is later on Arlong Park.
With his wound still recent (and entirely open later in the fight) he singlehandedly defeated all of the fodders in the crew and then went on to fight Hatchan, who he absolutely demolished as soon as he was lended two swords for santouryu. And then there's Arlong, who actually gets freaked out by Zoro's determined look and strength despite his blood loss (in an SBS it was specified he had lost like 4 liters of blood I think). Arlong actually tries to finish him off fast by instinct because he actually felt intimidated by his half dead ass.
Zoro's durability (durability/resilience/endurance) has only been highlighted arc after arc. The best examples off the top of my head:
1- It started with his fight with Cabaji.
2- Then there was the Arlong Park thing.
3- With Mr. 1 he got even more half dead (I think the same SBS mentioned an even heavier blood loss than against Arlong) before he turned the fight around.
4- At Thriller Bark he was already injured up by Oars and then he took on the pain of a Luffy who was already passed out from the damage, who had also been injured by Oars, Moria and was also suffering from the heavily damaging effects of overusing Gear 2 + 3 + Nightmare Luffy, which on itself was supposed to already be devastating, and Zoro managed staying on his feet and conscious until Sanji woke up.
Post time skip he's barely been around (Kaido and King where his first serious fights in all the timeskip... how sad), so I can't remember any recent example, but Zoro being the tank of the strawhats is a well established pre-TS fact. I don't want to argue that he's more resilient than Luffy (he's been at some points of the story, like on Thriller Bark) but he's definitely "the tank" of the crew, and no other straw hat other than Luffy can be argued to be more resilient than him.
Actually, not just of the crew, but of whatever tier he's currently in. He's a damage sponge while his opponents usually go down after one or two good hits. There may be other tanky monsters on his own tier, but if an attack can devastate Zoro, they won't brush it off either.
I understand that how Oda wrote the fight is a bit vague, so there is room for valid disagreements there.
With Luffy, there is more of a case to be made for your argument IMO. Cause Kaido was in a gauntlet, non stop fighting. While Luffy got healed twice.
With Law/Kid however, it's a bit different IMO. Before law/kid vs BM. They got damaged in the rooftop fight, while Kaido was the one pretty much taking all the damage in rooftop, he got ganged up on. Kid also got stabbed and smacked due to Hawkins shenanigans. BM however, started the fight pretty much without any injuries.
We can at least agree that Law/Kid pushed BM to an extreme diff at minimum? If not, why?
OG Yonkos > Admiral team right here.
Few things:
- Akainu getting promoted to FA does not necessarily mean he got stronger, he got older by definition he could have gotten weaker but that's not the point. FA title/position is not really for the stronger but smarter since FA's don't go out to fight but to administer. Heck even Garp could have been FA but chose not to. I do agree that Akainu is slightly above Aokiji and Kizaru but not over Kaido or BM or Shanks
- Shanks vs 3 admirals, Shanks loses, maybe I could see Shanks fight 2 but depends on who the 2 are. 2 admirals could high diff 1 Yonko
- Kid + Law > Big Mom, I disagree. Just like G5 Luffy > Kaido. The way the Yonko lost was due to convenient circumstances whether you like it or not. Was it a high diff fight for the Yonko, definitely. Kid/Law won due to plot armor. Oda failed by showing Law getting ragged by Doffy 3-4 arcs ago, then in the same arc semi-struggle with Hawkins, to being able to handle BM's punches, the same punches that almost killed Bege's castle. How the hell did Law get so powerful (physically) to survive? Plot armor. Not only that but Law had to get BM out in order to defeat her and used the magma/volcano to win. Oda used the magma conveniently to defeat the Yonko. If it wasn't for that a force of nature, BM would still be in Onigashima or Wano and continue to fight and win versus those two. She had defeated them already but through "sheer willpower" aka plot armor, both Law and Kid stood up again for one more attack. On their own abilities they would not have been able to defeat BM, damage her and her reputation YES, but ultimately defeat her NO.
- Now, Law/Kid are NOT Admiral level maybe together they would be. I don't think they deserved such a high bounty, since they tag teamed to "defeat" Big Mom.
Also, why bother ranking individuals who we literally have no idea if they are even a fighter to begin with???????
Imu and the Gorosei, why do you bother ranking them. Wait until they show us what they can do. One of them has a supreme grade sword but that doesn't necessarily mean he is a top ranking fighter. He may have it just for collection, I mean c'mon is a top grade sword and he is a high ranking official, I'm pretty sure he bought it.
Imu, we literally have no idea who she/he is or does. The WG just like any other government appoints civilian officials as the ruling figureheads.
They can be the last end of series villain but I will wait until they show us what they can do, to rank them.
Dragon, is another one. Just wait. He could very be Yonko level, but just wait before you rank him.
Sabo and Lucci clashed only once in a movie. That does not necessarily mean they are equals. Should we claim Zolo and Fujitora are equals because of their clash in the movie?
Why would akainu be any stronger , the fleet admiral position is legit based on ideology and decision , either akainu or aokiji would have been fine ( kizaru really isn’t the leadership type ) it’s more of what the powers that be , there’s really nothing like “fleet admiral level” in regards to the OG 3
Why wouldn’t he u can’t tell me the marineford akainu would the same power lvl as current akainu unless u think he was holding back a lot in marineford. i agree that fleet admiral has leadership qualities too but strength is another factor I don’t think any of the admirals are as strong as any past fleet admiral. i see “fleet admiral lvl” =Yonko lvl imo
What is subjective about Kaido having an outright superior portrayal to BM?
You agree Luffy always gets the strongest. Kaido has additional portrayals such as 1v1 bet on Kaido, being referred to as the strongest creature/pirate and so on.
I would generally not focus too much on feats. But Kaido also has future sight, something BM doesn't have. This would also contribute to tipping the scales,
What is subjective is the gap between them, I can agree on that.
Point being, we can disagree on the numbers. I may say it's Kaido 100 and BM 95, you may disagree with the numbers, that's perfectly fine. But what is undeniable is Kaido having both superior feats and superior portrayal. It would be one thing if it was just superior feats but same portrayal, but that isn't the case here really.
Yep, that's all I am saying. "Average" Yonko > "Average" admiral
The numbers themselves are subjective, it's fine to have disagreements there. Me saying 100 vs 95 is just my way of saying Yonkos will win, but it's an extreme diff
Yeah, I also believe that we will be seeing stronger hidden powerhouses in WG.
Imu is a sure thing.
I think Gorosei are also above admirals. One of them apparently has a supreme grade sword, and everyone who have them are at least Yonko tier (Roger, WB, Shanks, Mihawk). Plus, I don't think admirals and the entire marine/WG organization can be held together by Gorosei if they were some fodder figureheads. Their scars also suggest they are battle hardened veterans, probably fought back even 800 years ago and defeated the ancient kingdom,
This is something I struggle with a lot myself as well. If you have seen my rankings, Akainu's position is something I always struggle with, sometimes I put him alongside Kaido, sometimes I put him below BM. I myself flipflop on Akainu, though currently I am of the opinion that Akainu is moreso comparable to Kaido.
What isn't subjective here is that WB (off the meds) >= Akainu.
That was clearly the intent from Oda (to show an extreme diff fight where WB also gets KO'd in the end), as well as the straight up conclusive feats.
We will really have to see Akainu going all out, before being completely judging where both Akainu as well as WB (on meds as well as off meds) really stand.
If Akainu turns out to be an absolute boss, that will also elevate WB as well.
Yes, both WB in meds as well as WB off the meds.
It is very much possible that WB off the meds was stronger than BM.
There is something people miss out about WB. It wasn't that other Yonkos were comparable to him. It was that he let them share his era, and he could've become the king any time he wished to.
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To address these..........Let's talk about WB here.
Point 1:
Prime WB = Roger. Both are clearly at a different level from "Yonkos", considering both had Yonko level right hand men - in prime Rayleigh and Oden.
WB was most likely in his prime, when the concept of "Yonko" was introduced.
He was also stated to be very well capable of being PK if he chose to, multiple times in the series really. Also was considered the defacto PK, called king of the sea, strongest pirate.
Old WB (in meds) was also unanimously considered the strongest pirate and strongest man. The king of the seas.
He had conqueror's haki on par with Shanks', who is now confirmed the strongest conqueror's haki user alive, on a different level from both Kaido and BM. Old WB (in meds) also had "always on" (advanced) observation haki which allowed him to no diff a younger Ace (who was at least Jinbe tier back then) in his sleep.
Considering these, would it really an issue if old WB (in meds) is indeed considerably stronger than BM?
It wouldn't even cause any narrative issues, because WB never contested for any land and was minding his own business really.
Point 2:
Are the crews even comparable? How does WB's crew compare with Kaido's or BM's crew?
WB pirates in their peak had:
- Marco
- Ace
- Jozu
- Vista
- Thatch
- Blackbeard
- 10 other commanders implied to be at least Tobiroppo tiers
- many veteran allied captains.
Marco outright has considerable portrayal over King and Katakuri. Fought with Kizaru, matched an attack from angry Akainu. He is hyped in data books as someone who can give a challenge to admirals, which is portrayal. While we know what happened to King (full health or not, it's a bad look to get no diff'd)....
Marco also fought BM for almost the same duration Scabbards combined fought Kaido, and came out of the fight without any major injuries. After spending stamina on BM, he again spent stamina on healing up the entire floor. And then fought King + Queen for quite a considerable duration of time. And it wasn't even really like he was a punching bag relying on his DF heals, in fact he was the one mostly shown to be on the offense in what little of the offscreen fight we saw.
Jozu. Injured an admiral (though off guard). Tanked attack from Mihawk. I say he is definitely above Queen, and is in YC2 tier
Ace. Matched an attack from Aokiji. The novel also suggest he is incredibly strong, capable of fighting a non serious WB (in meds) for hours. Borderline YC1 tier IMO
Vista. Fought equally with a non serious Mihawk. Even if he's non serious, Mihawk is Mihawk, and Vista earned his praise. You aren't doing this if you aren't really strong. He's likely borderline YC1 tier
Thatch. He was portrayed to be at least stronger than a younger Ace, who stalemated Jinbe. YC3 tier at minimum.
Blackbeard (pre fruit). Strong enough to scar Shanks. Probably some commander level.
10 lower commanders.
While we don't know where they all exactly stand, they are at minimum Tobiroppo level. We saw this with Izo.
Izo defeated one of the two CP0 agents in a 1v2, each of them being strong enough to mid diff Drake, arguably the strongest Tobiroppo.
WB also had notable allied captains, who are respected veterans. Such as Whitey Bay, Oars Jr and Sqaurdo.
Considering all these......................is anyone gonna seriously argue that Kaido's or BM's crew is even remotely comparable to WB's?
WB crew blow them out the water!! It's not even close.
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What I am trying to say from the above points is. WB pirates (both the man and the crew) could very well be at another level from Beast Pirates/BMP. It fits both narratively, by portrayal and by feats.
Narratively, WB let the others share his spotlight because he couldn't care less.
By portrayal, WB was stated to have the strongest crew, the strongest pirate force in the world.
By feats, don't need much explanation
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Akainu is in his 50s, he isn't growing any stronger.
Unless explicitly stated that he got stronger, current Akainu = Mrineford Akainu IMO.
Generally I agree however.
Though Fleet admirals and admirals may be in same tier, Fleet admirals tend to be stronger.
Akainu probably can take on BM, Blackbeard (pre Wano) and current Luffy.
Prime Sengoku is treated as a real threat even by Roger, he is likely above all Yonkos individually.
I disagree to a certain extent I do believe akainu gotten stronger but it might not be like a huge boost compare to the younger chatacters thats like saying crocodile probably didn’t get stronger because he is in his mid 40s
If u believe that marineford akainu=akainu then akainu was hold back a lot then
OG Yonkos > Admiral team right here.
Few things:
- Akainu getting promoted to FA does not necessarily mean he got stronger, he got older by definition he could have gotten weaker but that's not the point. FA title/position is not really for the stronger but smarter since FA's don't go out to fight but to administer. Heck even Garp could have been FA but chose not to. I do agree that Akainu is slightly above Aokiji and Kizaru but not over Kaido or BM or Shanks
- Shanks vs 3 admirals, Shanks loses, maybe I could see Shanks fight 2 but depends on who the 2 are. 2 admirals could high diff 1 Yonko
- Kid + Law > Big Mom, I disagree. Just like G5 Luffy > Kaido. The way the Yonko lost was due to convenient circumstances whether you like it or not. Was it a high diff fight for the Yonko, definitely. Kid/Law won due to plot armor. Oda failed by showing Law getting ragged by Doffy 3-4 arcs ago, then in the same arc semi-struggle with Hawkins, to being able to handle BM's punches, the same punches that almost killed Bege's castle. How the hell did Law get so powerful (physically) to survive? Plot armor. Not only that but Law had to get BM out in order to defeat her and used the magma/volcano to win. Oda used the magma conveniently to defeat the Yonko. If it wasn't for that a force of nature, BM would still be in Onigashima or Wano and continue to fight and win versus those two. She had defeated them already but through "sheer willpower" aka plot armor, both Law and Kid stood up again for one more attack. On their own abilities they would not have been able to defeat BM, damage her and her reputation YES, but ultimately defeat her NO.
- Now, Law/Kid are NOT Admiral level maybe together they would be. I don't think they deserved such a high bounty, since they tag teamed to "defeat" Big Mom.
Also, why bother ranking individuals who we literally have no idea if they are even a fighter to begin with???????
Imu and the Gorosei, why do you bother ranking them. Wait until they show us what they can do. One of them has a supreme grade sword but that doesn't necessarily mean he is a top ranking fighter. He may have it just for collection, I mean c'mon is a top grade sword and he is a high ranking official, I'm pretty sure he bought it.
Imu, we literally have no idea who she/he is or does. The WG just like any other government appoints civilian officials as the ruling figureheads.
They can be the last end of series villain but I will wait until they show us what they can do, to rank them.
Dragon, is another one. Just wait. He could very be Yonko level, but just wait before you rank him.
Sabo and Lucci clashed only once in a movie. That does not necessarily mean they are equals. Should we claim Zolo and Fujitora are equals because of their clash in the movie?
I mean I agree to certain extent but we at the last saga I mean dragon has to be at least yonko lvl or else he would be very disappointing and a waste of a character.
imu and gorosei I know by hype has to be at the bare minimum yonko lvl too
disagree to a certain extent I do believe akainu gotten stronger but it might not be like a huge boost compare to the younger chatacters thats like saying crocodile probably didn’t get stronger because he is in his mid 40s
If u believe that marineford akainu=akainu then akainu was hold back a lot then
Well yeah, I don't think Crocodile grew unless explicitly stated. IMO Oda just "corrected" his PL to what is expected of him, considering his status as a respected veteran from New world.
Nah, Akainu didn't hold back either. He got KO'd briefly and slides off a cliff. Would've died if he didn't slide off
OG Yonkos > Admiral team right here.
Few things:
- Akainu getting promoted to FA does not necessarily mean he got stronger, he got older by definition he could have gotten weaker but that's not the point. FA title/position is not really for the stronger but smarter since FA's don't go out to fight but to administer. Heck even Garp could have been FA but chose not to. I do agree that Akainu is slightly above Aokiji and Kizaru but not over Kaido or BM or Shanks
- Shanks vs 3 admirals, Shanks loses, maybe I could see Shanks fight 2 but depends on who the 2 are. 2 admirals could high diff 1 Yonko
- Kid + Law > Big Mom, I disagree. Just like G5 Luffy > Kaido. The way the Yonko lost was due to convenient circumstances whether you like it or not. Was it a high diff fight for the Yonko, definitely. Kid/Law won due to plot armor. Oda failed by showing Law getting ragged by Doffy 3-4 arcs ago, then in the same arc semi-struggle with Hawkins, to being able to handle BM's punches, the same punches that almost killed Bege's castle. How the hell did Law get so powerful (physically) to survive? Plot armor. Not only that but Law had to get BM out in order to defeat her and used the magma/volcano to win. Oda used the magma conveniently to defeat the Yonko. If it wasn't for that a force of nature, BM would still be in Onigashima or Wano and continue to fight and win versus those two. She had defeated them already but through "sheer willpower" aka plot armor, both Law and Kid stood up again for one more attack. On their own abilities they would not have been able to defeat BM, damage her and her reputation YES, but ultimately defeat her NO.
- Now, Law/Kid are NOT Admiral level maybe together they would be. I don't think they deserved such a high bounty, since they tag teamed to "defeat" Big Mom.
Also, why bother ranking individuals who we literally have no idea if they are even a fighter to begin with???????
Imu and the Gorosei, why do you bother ranking them. Wait until they show us what they can do. One of them has a supreme grade sword but that doesn't necessarily mean he is a top ranking fighter. He may have it just for collection, I mean c'mon is a top grade sword and he is a high ranking official, I'm pretty sure he bought it.
Imu, we literally have no idea who she/he is or does. The WG just like any other government appoints civilian officials as the ruling figureheads.
They can be the last end of series villain but I will wait until they show us what they can do, to rank them.
Dragon, is another one. Just wait. He could very be Yonko level, but just wait before you rank him.
Sabo and Lucci clashed only once in a movie. That does not necessarily mean they are equals. Should we claim Zolo and Fujitora are equals because of their clash in the movie?
I agree that Law randomly jumping up the scale by tiers doesn't nature much sense. But same happened for most of the "good guys" too.
It wasn't even that he tanked all from BM. He also tanked two hits from hybrid Kaido back to back, one of which was a thunder bagua.
Anyway, there is a key difference to be noted here, between Luffy vs Kaido and Law/Kid vs BM.
- Luffy got healed up twice, got rest etc while powering up. While Kaido was in a non stop gauntlet. So, I too think that fresh current luffy loses to fresh Kaido.
- Law/Kid vs BM however started with then being injured, while BM pretty much fresh. Kid also got stabbed and all due to Hawkins shenanigans. They powered up mid fight, and gave BM an extreme diff at least. This is why I think current Law/Kid wins when fresh.
Whether we disagree with the assessment or not, I hope we can agree that there is a distinction between Luffy's and Law/Kid's situation.
As for Akainu, we will have to see. Though I can't justify it at all, my gut feeling is that Akainu > BM and possibly Shanks
That should put to rest the whole 2 admirals or even 3 admirals = 1 Yonko. That's all I'm saying
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Well yeah, I don't think Crocodile grew unless explicitly stated. IMO Oda just "corrected" his PL to what is expected of him, considering his status as a respected veteran from New world.
Nah, Akainu didn't hold back either. He got KO'd briefly and slides off a cliff. Would've died if he didn't slide off
--- Double Post Merged, ---
I agree that Law randomly jumping up the scale by tiers doesn't nature much sense. But same happened for most of the "good guys" too.
It wasn't even that he tanked all from BM. He also tanked two hits from hybrid Kaido back to back, one of which was a thunder bagua.
Anyway, there is a key difference to be noted here, between Luffy vs Kaido and Law/Kid vs BM.
- Luffy got healed up twice, got rest etc while powering up. While Kaido was in a non stop gauntlet. So, I too think that fresh current luffy loses to fresh Kaido.
- Law/Kid vs BM however started with then being injured, while BM pretty much fresh. Kid also got stabbed and all due to Hawkins shenanigans. They powered up mid fight, and gave BM an extreme diff at least. This is why I think current Law/Kid wins when fresh.
Whether we disagree with the assessment or not, I hope we can agree that there is a distinction between Luffy's and Law/Kid's situation.
As for Akainu, we will have to see. Though I can't justify it at all, my gut feeling is that Akainu > BM and possibly Shanks
Agree to disagree on Law/Kid vs BM round 2.
Yeah there is a big distinction on Luffy vs Kaido compared to Law/kid vs BM.
I don't think this arc made any sense in power ups. Oda focused too much on the extra million characters than on the original ones that needed the attention. For example, Usopp, Franky, Robin, Brook, were all backgrounded until the their Flying 6 fights and even then it made no sense. People like Carrot and Yamato for SHPs but to me that distracts form the original Strawhats and we don't get to see them shine properly. Hell its been 2-3 chapters and we still don't know the bounties for the rest of the crew.
I mean I agree to certain extent but we at the last saga I mean dragon has to be at least yonko lvl or else he would be very disappointing and a waste of a character.
imu and gorosei I know by hype has to be at the bare minimum yonko lvl too
There is no hype for them to be Yonko level. It would not make sense at all. The WG has 6 Yonko Level characters plus 3-6 admiral levels who are close to Yonkos, but yet they fear and allow the Yonko to exercise their control over the seas. NAH.
A lot of people in this forum like to run their imagination wild. Nice that you @ NO ONE IN PARTICULAR, feel that Kuro may be Yonko level with no back up evidence but please do not post it on thread. Keep some stuff to yourself unless you have concrete evidence that may support it. IF not then anybody can just make absurd claims.
Some of you guys seems like its forgetting the whole context of things that happened in the luffy fight, luffy got healed twice? wtf? he didnt got healed, he just had some time to rest a little bit, this is not a heal, common, even kaido had some time to rest after defeating luffy and when he was drinking with big mom
Luffy in the last round vs kaido was in WORST shape than kaido, that is clear, even kaido stated that he was dying and he confirms it, the guy came from the death, so the argumment of "kaido lost because was weakened" dont make ANY sense, luffy was much more weakened, luffy is stronger than kaido based on these facts, luffy with all power ups and more weakened than kaido defeated him, AND have in mind that kaido has more endurance than luffy.
