One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Fox666]

It could be shallow and still do damage how do you not understand such a simle concept?

It was both too shallow, but not as effective as it could have been. Those 2 things are NOT mutually exclusive(do you know what that means?)

YOU made the goal post that signifiganct damage is bleeding from the mouth, when i show you that Luffy made him bleed from the mouth witg 1 hit you proceed to move the goal post further back.

It WaS In BaSe So It DoEsnT CoUnT



I guess that isn't blood because Luffy was in base. So interesting. Everyone eyes must not being working well

Luffy damaging Kaido:

Zoro damaging Kaido:

The last one left a scar, so it's stronger right?

 

[Nie Li]

aCoC is always above aCoA, that's why Luffy powered up after learning aCoC, and even after aCoC, he still needed to hit Kaido with tens or hundreds of punches before he brought him down.

Kaido dodged a basic aCoA punch, sure, it hurt, just like the cat scratch hurts, but looking at the rest of the fight without tunel visioning that single scene should be enough to know Luffy wasn't really doing much at the time. Even when he was only using aCoA, Luffy hit Kaido with a huge barrage in Gear 4 and achieved nothing, while a single cut from aCoC Zoro left a big scar on his torso.

Luffy's punches can't be compared to a brick falling on a person's head if a 100 bricks falling on a person's head don't bring that person down (or outright kill him), just like a scar covering a torso can't be compared to a cat's scratch: Had Zoro hit Kaido a 100 times with Asura, Kaido would be sashimi. The damage output is obviously bigger.

It's a different matter to argue that Zoro is slower or that he would become exhausted sooner or whatever. aCoA Luffy doesn't have nearly as much damage output as aCoC Zoro.

 

[Rein Avara]

It's a different matter to argue that Zoro is slower or that he would become exhausted sooner or whatever. aCoA Luffy doesn't have nearly as much damage output as aCoC Zoro.

But Zoro didn't use aCoC on the roof though, you can assume he did but then it'd just be head cannon, we didn't see the standard conqueror lightning streaks from his attack.

 

[Nie Li]

But Zoro didn't use aCoC on the roof though, you can assume he did but then it'd just be head cannon, we didn't see the standard conqueror lightning streaks from his attack.

It's not headcanon at all: he used aCoC on Kaido. I already argued it on that chapter, and the fight with King confirmed it.

- Zoro said he "didn't know how he did it, he just put everything he had into his attack".
- Soon after, when he fought King, we learnt the nature of his "new power up": Enma helped him imbue CoC, by draining him of even that to make the attack. In his fight against King he started controlling the CoC imput and learnt to apply it to the rest of his swords as well, only after he once again imbued it accidentally.
- Even Kaido noticed he had been slashed with CoC and asked him, rethorically in surprise, if he had CoC, right before we learnt in that very chapter from Luffy that CoC can be imbued. Zoro opened the curtain for that revelation.

Oda didn't spoonfeed us word by word that "Zoro is using CoC" (although he pretty much did through Kaido), but for those who wasn't clear at the time, it should have become clear when he fought King and we got a confirmation of what Enma was making him do.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 24, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 24, 2022 ---

I'll even say this: If Zoro hadn't used CoC accidentally throughout his fight on the rooftop, he wouldn't have injured Kaido. Nor with the Asura nor with the Tatsumaki.

 

[LadyVados]

Do cat scratches even leave life-long scars ?

 

[Rein Avara]

It's not headcanon at all: he used aCoC on Kaido. I already argued it on that chapter, and the fight with King confirmed it.

- Zoro said he "didn't know how he did it, he just put everything he had into his attack".
- Soon after, when he fought King, we learnt the nature of his "new power up": Enma helped him imbue CoC, by draining him of even that to make the attack. In his fight against King he started controlling the CoC imput and learnt to apply it to the rest of his swords as well, only after he once again imbued it accidentally.
- Even Kaido noticed he had been slashed with CoC and asked him, rethorically in surprise, if he had CoC, right before we learnt in that very chapter from Luffy that CoC can be imbued. Zoro opened the curtain for that revelation.

Oda didn't spoonfeed us word by word that "Zoro is using CoC" (although he pretty much did through Kaido), but for those who wasn't clear at the time, it should have become clear when he fought King and we got a confirmation of what Enma was making him do.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 24, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 24, 2022 ---

I'll even say this: If Zoro hadn't used CoC accidentally throughout his fight on the rooftop, he wouldn't have injured Kaido. Nor with the Asura nor with the Tatsumaki.

I suppose our opinions differ here, but I generally do not see it that way.

Zoro was cutting Kaido without CoC, we saw that with the Dragon twister. It doesn't make sense to show Luffy and Kaido using ACoC (via visuals too) and not do the same with Zoro.

The scabbards could pierce Kaido's skill with Ryuo, so I don't think ACoC is the only way to scar or wound Kaido, it's definitely the most effective way though.
I think if Zoro had hit Kaido with a CoC attack it would have much more of an impact on him.

I lean more on the side of Kaido sensed the haki leak out, but Zoro didn't actually use it in the attack.
We know this can happen, as seen with Ulti and Luffy where he was in the rubble and she could still sense his Haki.

I don't think Zoro truly gave everything to Enma till he fought King which then allowed him to draw out his ACoC, up until then he was still holding back somewhat as he alluded himself.

 

[Nie Li]

I suppose our opinions differ here, but I generally do not see it that way.

Zoro was cutting Kaido without CoC, we saw that with the Dragon twister. It doesn't make sense to show Luffy and Kaido using ACoC (via visuals too) and not do the same with Zoro.

The scabbards could pierce Kaido's skill with Ryuo, so I don't think ACoC is the only way to scar or wound Kaido, it's definitely the most effective way though.
I think if Zoro had hit Kaido with a CoC attack it would have much more of an impact on him.

I lean more on the side of Kaido sensed the haki leak out, but Zoro didn't actually use it in the attack.
We know this can happen, as seen with Ulti and Luffy where he was in the rubble and she could still sense his Haki.

I don't think Zoro truly gave everything to Enma till he fought King which then allowed him to draw out his ACoC, up until then he was still holding back somewhat as he alluded himself.

They do. We can just agree to disagree on this one but I'll still tell you my opinion on those points. For healthy discussion.

I believe Zoro already put but traces of his CoC in that dragon twister just like in the attack that missed during the early part of the fight, which is why his sword blackened with an aura in my opinion and why Big Mom reacted like that to it (inb4 some other commenters: no, that was not Oden's haki, Enma just forcefully pulls out more haki that Zoro intends to, that's all it does).

The scabbards did indeed injure Kaido but, as Kaido said: "their CoA was not enough to even open Oden's old scar"... with a simultaneous ultimate attack of the 7 scabbards right on top of his old scar. To me, that tells me something more powerful than just CoA is required, and I believe we especifically saw Oden use CoC to make that scar in the flashback.

It's possible that Kaido sensed CoC despite it not being on the attack, but while it's possible, I'll try to argue I don't believe it's likely:
- The literal same thing happened to him again against King. He accidentally used it on King when he poured through Enma by trying to "go all out" with it. Despite knowing nothing about CoC, he just poured it into the sword at the time of his attack.
- Just like he said he would stop holding back against King, stop trying to preserve his haki, his last attack against Kaido was one in which he admittedly put all he had left, mostly because he was on his last leg and he stopped caring about holding back. He didn't even know what he did, because he just "poured all he had into his sword", and that included something he didn't know he had.
- It would be too much of a coincidence, in my honest opinion, if pouring his all against King imbued CoC but pouring his all against Kaido minutes earlier just made his CoA stronger but coincidentally he also released a CoC wave for the first time.

The difference in the fight with King, is that he wasn't as half dead and wasn't going for a single all out attack when he decided to "go all out" on his haki, which allowed him to properly use CoC for a prolongued time instead of a single instant.

I do acknowledge that black streaks were not drawn in his attack on the rooftop, but this doesn't outweight the reasons I have to believe he used aCoC for a single moment. I have been arguing it since that very chapter, and was pretty excited when the King made an actual repeat and continuation of what I argued (sadly, I was off the forum at the time of that fight).

I'm surprised I'm pretty much arguing that I believe Zoro is weaker without his aCoC than you (non-specific plural) believe, me being a Zoro fanboy and all.

 

[HereNThere]

I like Enma as a power-up, but I do believe Oda may have still been playing around with the direction he wanted Enma to go in.

Kaido recognized Oden's essence or whatever in the blade during Zoro's first major attack on him, which does imply that Oden's haki still resided in the blade. Which, okay, Enma absorbs haki and we don't know what it does with it. Perhaps that's the clue to how to blacken one's blade and Zoro would just have to overwrite Enma like a hard drive. That's what I initially thought.

Then the next time, Kaido, who was able to recognize Zoro's Asura as CoC infused and who is intimately familiar with Oden's Haki, noted that it was a "strange haki" coming from the sword, which kind of goes against what he said earlier and implied that the sword is producing haki on its own. This is extremely weird as that's the only time in the series a weapon has been pointed out to have an "aura" on that level and has me wondering if it was Oda leaning more into the "disposition" angle early on and potentially implying that swords can produce their own form of haki...which would open an entirely different can of worms.

By the time Zoro was going against King though, all of that strange haki and Oden's essence stuff was gone, and it was just Enma testing Zoro and it is forcing him to push himself to meet its expectations and his own, making it 100% clear that it's his haki it was being used.

What does this have to do with anything? Well, nothing really. Just another weirdly inconsistent aspect of Wano.

 

[Fox666]

aCoC is always above aCoA

That's absurd.

It's like saying that an awakened Devil Fruit user is always stronger than a non-awakened Devil Fruit user.


Zoro is much weaker than Luffy, Haki Infusion is not enough to make up for the difference.

Luffy's Red Roc was so ridiculously powerful that Kaido compared him to legendary pirates. That proves that nothing Zoro did that arc ever compares to that attack.

After this point, Luffy gets even stronger. When Luffy uses Haki Infusion, he splits the sky. That's the level above Red Roc.

When Zoro learned Haki Infusion, he defeated a Yonko right-hand. Something Luffy already managed before learning any advanced form of Armament.


To put it in numbers:

Luffy: 4,000
Luffy (Haki Infusion): 6,000
Zoro: 1,000
Zoro (Haki Infusion): 1,500

that's why Luffy powered up after learning aCoC, and even after aCoC, he still needed to hit Kaido with tens or hundreds of punches before he brought him down.

Had Zoro hit Kaido a 100 times with Asura, Kaido would be sashimi. The damage output is obviously bigger.

Based on what?

Luffy was splitting the sky with his Haki. He was obviously on a completely different level from Zoro.


Kaido is ridiculously durable. If he could take a hundred punches from Luffy, he could take a thousand Asura's from Zoro.

 

[grey matter]

That's absurd.

It's like saying that an awakened Devil Fruit user is always stronger than a non-awakened Devil Fruit user.


Zoro is much weaker than Luffy, Haki Infusion is not enough to make up for the difference.

Luffy's Red Roc was so ridiculously powerful that Kaido compared him to legendary pirates. That proves that nothing Zoro did that arc ever compares to that attack.

After this point, Luffy gets even stronger. When Luffy uses Haki Infusion, he splits the sky. That's the level above Red Roc.

When Zoro learned Haki Infusion, he defeated a Yonko right-hand. Something Luffy already managed before learning any advanced form of Armament.


To put it in numbers:

Luffy: 4,000
Luffy (Haki Infusion): 6,000
Zoro: 1,000
Zoro (Haki Infusion): 1,500



Based on what?

Luffy was splitting the sky with his Haki. He was obviously on a completely different level from Zoro.


Kaido is ridiculously durable. If he could take a hundred punches from Luffy, he could take a thousand Asura's from Zoro.

A completely flawed argument.
Zoro defeated a 1st commander whose entirely schtick was his hardness and durability. King no sold attacks that even damaged Kaido. Post WCI Luffy would get completely demolished by King.

To put it in perspective:
- beginning of Wano Luffy did zero damage to Kaido
- rooftop Luffy and rooftop Zoro damaged Kaido even before using advanced conqueror's. Obvious implication here is that Zoro's and Luffy's attack power in rooftop >> beginning of Wano Luffy
- same attacks used by Zoro in rooftop, got no sold by King.


Zoro with advanced conqueror's scarred Kaido, something previously done only by Oden.
Yeah, one Asura scarred Kaido. He will surely need a 1000 of them to be taken down

Your headcanon numbers make no sense. Pretty sure you're the only one who actually believes that lmao

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 24, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 24, 2022 ---

I suppose our opinions differ here, but I generally do not see it that way.

Zoro was cutting Kaido without CoC, we saw that with the Dragon twister. It doesn't make sense to show Luffy and Kaido using ACoC (via visuals too) and not do the same with Zoro.

The scabbards could pierce Kaido's skill with Ryuo, so I don't think ACoC is the only way to scar or wound Kaido, it's definitely the most effective way though.
I think if Zoro had hit Kaido with a CoC attack it would have much more of an impact on him.

I lean more on the side of Kaido sensed the haki leak out, but Zoro didn't actually use it in the attack.
We know this can happen, as seen with Ulti and Luffy where he was in the rubble and she could still sense his Haki.

I don't think Zoro truly gave everything to Enma till he fought King which then allowed him to draw out his ACoC, up until then he was still holding back somewhat as he alluded himself.

Yep.
Not sure what is the confusion here, this is the straight forward reasoning.

Both advanced armament and advanced conqueror's can harm Kaido, just that advanced conqueror's is much more effective.

Scabbards, Luffy and Zoro were damaging Kaido with just advanced armament as well. Zoro wasn't using conqueror's before, neither was Luffy.
If they were, Kaido would've obviously noticed and mentioned it. Like he did when Zoro used Asura.

 

[LadyVados]

Spoiler: 1058

Delete Rule 1. It's finished. Mihawk > Shanks confirmed.

 

[Fox666]

Yeah, one Asura scarred Kaido. He will surely need a 1000 of them to be taken down

Luffy attacks can split the sky

How many of these Kaido took?

It's on a completely different level

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Spoiler: 1058

Delete Rule 1. It's finished. Mihawk > Shanks confirmed.

Spoiler: 1058

I think this also deletes rule 6. It's clear now Mihawk is fully a Yonko level fighter.

 

[Fox666]

The "Is Smoker a top 30 character?" rule is so weird

It's so oddly specific

It's like if there was a rule for "Can Zoro beat Luffy after he wakes up at 3:15 AM and wants to eat chicken?"

 

[Pirate Queen]

The "Is Smoker a top 30 character?" rule is so weird

It's so oddly specific

It's like if there was a rule for "Can Zoro beat Luffy after he wakes up at 3:15 AM and wants to eat chicken?"

We have King Moe's to thank for that one

 

[LadyVados]

Spoiler: 1058

My current Tier List

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 25, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 24, 2022 ---

Luffy attacks can split the sky

How many of these Kaido took?

It's on a completely different level

How do we know Zoro's can't ? Zoro has never clashed with another AdCoC user.

Zoro with one week of AdCoC experience > Luffy with 2 hours of experience

 

[Nie Li]

The "Is Smoker a top 30 character?" rule is so weird

It's so oddly specific

It's like if there was a rule for "Can Zoro beat Luffy after he wakes up at 3:15 AM and wants to eat chicken?"

That discussion lasted for three days or so.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 25, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 25, 2022 ---

I like Enma as a power-up, but I do believe Oda may have still been playing around with the direction he wanted Enma to go in.

Kaido recognized Oden's essence or whatever in the blade during Zoro's first major attack on him, which does imply that Oden's haki still resided in the blade. Which, okay, Enma absorbs haki and we don't know what it does with it. Perhaps that's the clue to how to blacken one's blade and Zoro would just have to overwrite Enma like a hard drive. That's what I initially thought.

Then the next time, Kaido, who was able to recognize Zoro's Asura as CoC infused and who is intimately familiar with Oden's Haki, noted that it was a "strange haki" coming from the sword, which kind of goes against what he said earlier and implied that the sword is producing haki on its own. This is extremely weird as that's the only time in the series a weapon has been pointed out to have an "aura" on that level and has me wondering if it was Oda leaning more into the "disposition" angle early on and potentially implying that swords can produce their own form of haki...which would open an entirely different can of worms.

By the time Zoro was going against King though, all of that strange haki and Oden's essence stuff was gone, and it was just Enma testing Zoro and it is forcing him to push himself to meet its expectations and his own, making it 100% clear that it's his haki it was being used.

What does this have to do with anything? Well, nothing really. Just another weirdly inconsistent aspect of Wano.

I agree that it wasn't portrayed in the clearest of way but, on the other hand, everything we learnt about Enma when Zoro fought King, almost word by word, are the same things I kept arguing for weeks on this thread and the weekly ones regarding Enma during the rooftop fight, so it's not like Oda just changed his mind: it could be interpreted correctly since the beginning, simply by not taking Kaido's and Big Mom's every word literally and by taking into account what we already knew about Enma when Zoro received it (which really explained everything).

Not saying this as a "look how smart I am, I figured everything", just as a "I think the portrayal was a bit messy, but not necessarily inconsistent".

 

[LadyVados]

There are obviously more top tiers and commanders than 30

 

[Nie Li]

There are obviously more top tiers and commanders than 30

The debate was from when Onigashima was starting. My good friend King Moe was the one who made a big fuss over Smoker being a top 30 character. And I think he started by saying top 10 and then moved to 30.

 

[HereNThere]

I agree that it wasn't portrayed in the clearest of way but, on the other hand, everything we learnt about Enma when Zoro fought King, almost word by word, are the same things I kept arguing for weeks on this thread and the weekly ones regarding Enma during the rooftop fight, so it's not like Oda just changed his mind: it could be interpreted correctly since the beginning, simply by not taking Kaido's and Big Mom's every word literally and by taking into account what we already knew about Enma when Zoro received it (which really explained everything).

Not saying this as a "look how smart I am, I figured everything", just as a "I think the portrayal was a bit messy, but not necessarily inconsistent".

I mean, why wouldn't we take those particular words at face value? Especially at that moment? We can't feel haki. They can. They have been masters of haki for decades and should be experts on the topic. So if they note something strange going on with the sword, but ignore the wielder for some reason, it's fair to interpret that as something weird is going on with the blade that wasn't related to Zoro's haki.

I'm not saying it's all inconsistent, as Enma's introduction and the information we learned during King's fight is all good. It's just the Rooftop stuff that adds a bunch of stuff that wasn't relevant or consistent.

Enma absorbs haki to force it's wielder to go all in, per it's personality. Everything Kaido and Big Mom should've been sensing on the roof, should've been Zoro's haki. But having them ignore him altogether to focus on the sword or reference other folks' haki doesn't make any sense.

If Kaido just recognized Enma as Oden's sword from sight alone and the two of them noted that Zoro's haki was fluctuating wildly, that'd make the Enma story consistent from start to finish. But Kaido first recognized the sword as having Oden's haki and then noted a strange (third?) haki that apparently wasn't Zoro's or Oden's. Those word choices were intentional on Oda's part and supposed to be more hints towards the nature of Enma, but they don't meld with what we started on and what we ended on.