One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Rein Avara]

Youll now get every panel smoker vs Vergo, wait a minute.

Please only post the panels relevant to the point you're trying to make, anything extra will result in your post being deleted.
We don't need to see the whole fight.

 

[McNuss]

It starts chapter 683.

Vergo is bullying Law, who is unable to get his heart back on his own.
Smoker witnesses that and stops Vergo from going any further.
No fight between the two so far.

Chapter 684:

Smoker attacks Vergo with his jutte, which Vergo blocks, using hardening and his bamboo staff. Then Vergo uses his hardenend staff to shoot an explosive projectile at Smoker, which surprises him, but he dodges it effortlessly nonetheless

Next, Smoker tries to get behind Vergo, which Vergo dodges to counter Smoker with a kick, their legs clashing evenly.

Next Smoker puches Vergo in the face with hardening, sending him flying a short distance to the ground. Vergo starts bleeding. A further panel of Smoker at the end of the chapter shows the fight still ongoing.

Chapter 685

Smoker hits Vergo in the face with a hardened elbow, making him spill blood.

Chapter 690

Smoker and Vergo are both covered in bruises and blood. Vergo wonders why Smoker fights so oddly, insisting on using his ability against a superior Haki user, which specifically is very odd for Smoker.

Smoker charges at him, Vergo hits him in the belly hard with his Oni Take and Armament Haki. Despite Smoker using Hardening, the Jutte breaks and he goes down, but is still conciouss, coughing out of energy.

Next Law gets up, has the heart back from Smoker who says they are even now. Vergo enrages, Law cuts him down. Smoker gets back up, end of fight.

So for two out of three chapters showcasing the fight, Smoker has the upperhand. In the final chapter, they are both bruised and covered in blood, Vergo has the upperhand but points out Smoker fights without logic and unlike his self, next Vergo gets beaten because Smoker tricked him. Going on for 7 chapters, this is the longest fight in PH, further highlighting how close those two are.

How Vergo being leagues above Smoker can be inferred from that fight is beyond me, because that is not what was shown in the Manga at all. Maybe the anime changed it a bit, but in the manga, it's a close battle, Smoker tricks Vergo and wins.

Please only post the panels relevant to the point you're trying to make, anything extra will result in your post being deleted.
We don't need to see the whole fight.

I've already said I won't post images, and it is not a long fight. This is a comic, not a picture gallery. Sequence of action is important.
In order to prove that Smoker and Vergo can be put into the same tier (not that they are equal, i have never claimed that and explained five times already how the tierlist works), that they are comparable in strenght. For that, I am going to need to the full fight but its not going to be a lenghty post anyways.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 22, 2022, Original Post Date: Sep 22, 2022 ---

Aww somebody is getting their feelings hurt yet calls Page One a big fat lizard and fails to see how that is an insult. LMAO oh the irony.

While you're at it, get me every panel of Pre-Time skip Characters like Zolo, Luffy, and other supernovas > Page One.

Yes I fail how an accurate description of a fictive characters attributes can be viewed as an insult. It's like saying "that is a big fat chair". It's not going to be hurt by that and will still allow me to sit on it because it is not alive it has no feelings.

When Big Mom sung the Bad End Musical in the chapter of the same name, people both here and on reddit showed up, citing: It ain't over till the fat lady sings, and given Big Mom's elbafian context, might have even been actually part of Oda's inspiration for the scene.

 

[albertwv]

It starts chapter 683.

Vergo is bullying Law, who is unable to get his heart back on his own.
Smoker witnesses that and stops Vergo from going any further.
No fight between the two so far.

Chapter 884:

Smoker attacks Vergo with his jutte, which Vergo blocks, using hardening and his bamboo staff. Then Vergo uses his hardenend staff to shoot an explosive projectile at Smoker, which surprises him, but he dodges it effortlessly nonetheless

Next, Smoker tries to get behind Vergo, which Vergo dodges to counter Smoker with a kick, their legs clashing evenly.

Next Smoker puches Vergo in the face with hardening, sending him flying a short distance to the ground. Vergo starts bleeding. A further panel of Smoker at the end of the chapter shows the fight still ongoing.

Chapter 885

Smoker hits Vergo in the face with a hardened elbow, making him spill blood.

Chapter 890

Smoker and Vergo are both covered in bruises and blood. Vergo wonders why Smoker fights so oddly, insisting on using his ability against a superior Haki user, which specifically is very odd for Smoker.

Smoker charges at him, Vergo hits him in the belly hard with his Oni Take and Armament Haki. Despite Smoker using Hardening, the Jutte breaks and he goes down, but is still conciouss, coughing out of energy.

Next Law gets up, has the heart back from Smoker who says they are even now. Vergo enrages, Law cuts him down. Smoker gets back up, end of fight.

So for two out of three chapters showcasing the fight, Smoker has the upperhand. In the final chapter, they are both bruised and covered in blood, Vergo has the upperhand but points out Smoker fights without logic and unlike his self, next Vergo gets beaten because Smoker tricked him. Going on for 7 chapters, this is the longest fight in PH, further highlighting how close those two are.

How Vergo being leagues above Smoker can be inferred from that fight is beyond me, because that is not what was shown in the Manga at all. Maybe the anime changed it a bit, but in the manga, it's a close battle, Smoker tricks Vergo and wins.

I've already said I won't post images, and it is not a long fight. This is a comic, not a picture gallery. Sequence of action is important.
In order to prove that Smoker and Vergo can be put into the same tier (not that they are equal, i have never claimed that and explained five times already how the tierlist works), that they are comparable in strenght. For that, I am going to need to the full fight but its not going to be a lenghty post anyways.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 22, 2022, Original Post Date: Sep 22, 2022 ---

Yes I fail how an accurate description of a fictive characters attributes can be viewed as an insult. It's like saying "that is a big fat chair". It's not going to be hurt by that and will still allow me to sit on it because it is not alive it has no feelings.

When Big Mom sung the Bad End Musical in the chapter of the same name, people both here and on reddit showed up, citing: It ain't over till the fat lady sings, and given Big Mom's elbafian context, might have even been actually part of Oda's inspiration for the scene.

Damn that fight lasted 200 chapters?? That is the longest fight ever indeed.
I claimed that Vergo > Smoker and indicating that there are junior and senior VA levels within the Vice Admiral Rank. Vergo is one league above Smoker, not exponentially but there is a difference in their strengths.

Also, I guess partial credit can be given since you listed the chapters, but had you listed the page number of the fight scene it would be great. You could have added the actual panels of what you were describing and then added SPOILER tags, in order for your post to not be extremely long (like your list), just for future reference.
Over all report C+. You're ready for high school.

You insulting Page One (who actually is pretty slim in his human form and hybrid form, IDK how you can say his Dino form is fat when that's how dinosaurs are portrayed) just tells me that you don't like him for whatever reason plus the way you ranked him pretty low. Not only that but didn't call Sasaki (who actually is bigger in weight than P1 in both human and DF forms) a "big fat lizard".
I can determine that you dislike Page One for whatever strange reason. Its like the Sanji haters insulting Sanji, especially the ones who downplay him because he refuses to hit a woman. They just don't like Sanji for whatever reason.

Also, I am still waiting on the chapters, pages, panels, vivre cards or whatever that backs up your ridiculous claim that Pre Time Skip Zolo/Luffy/Law/Kid can defeat Page One.

 

[McNuss]

Also, I guess partial credit can be given since you listed the chapters, but had you listed the page number of the fight scene it would be great. You could have added the actual panels of what you were describing and then added SPOILER tags, in order for your post to not be extremely long (like your list), just for future reference.
Over all report C+. You're ready for high school.

Dude, you don't need pages or panel numbers, One Piece chapters aren't that long. You pick the chapter, you can flip the pages in seconds. This is not a book, it has pictures. You didn't read the chapters, right?

 

[catagon87]

Dude, I even wrote why this cannot be compared to that scenario.

No one here ever does anything like that. You just have a personal problem with me, I am not dumb and have long since noticed how you are picking on my postings. The same goes for quite a chunk of other users. It is very unfriendly behavior.

It's not worth getting that upset over.
I'm sorry you feel that I have a personal issue with you. I don't feel that I do, but your experience is your experience. If I disagree with someone then I will point it out. I may be a bit cheeky about it. If you feel I am, then I suggest just hitting the ignore button. There's no shame in it, and I've used it for plenty who I feel are either consistently low quality posters, or just assholes.

 

[XXGenesis]

@McNuss Your list makes sense; but you are incorrect on your perspective on Page One’s.

None of the SN Characters Pre TS would defeat him. Narratively it doesn’t even make sense; He’s apart of a Yonkou’s crew Mid-lv fighters….MF Luffy loses to an opponent of that physical level with haki. As do all the SN.

I personally like the Tiers of your list. As we seen Pre TS Luffy be able to defeat the Boa Sisters & they were haki users. This imo should be your benchmark when comparing New World characters to Paradise Characters…

So Yes. You have characters like P1; XDrake; Gecko in the wrong tier.

The whole Smoker/Vergo/Sanji/Law Debate…..It’s Law > Vergo > Sanji/Smoker.

Law was losing because he was at a disadvantage with his heart gone. He stomped once he stopped being at a disadvantage.

Sanji sadly needed his RS & multiple arcs to show feats of superiority over Vergo; Vergo was simply stronger & Has better feats in PH arc than Sanji did & even in WCI.

Smoker took A L from Law easy. Then he took another L & beat down from Vergo. Forced to help a Pirate the only other person around that could have defeated Vergo. Smoker physically & his haki was lower than Vergo’s.

 

[McNuss]

@McNuss Your list makes sense; but you are incorrect on your perspective on Page One’s.

None of the SN Characters Pre TS would defeat him. Narratively it doesn’t even make sense; He’s apart of a Yonkou’s crew Mid-lv fighters….MF Luffy loses to an opponent of that physical level with haki. As do all the SN.

Luffy already beat two Shishibukai, and Rob Lucci and Blueno of CP9, as well as the Gorgon Sisters Marigold and Sandersonia. The latter four are all CoA users. They even had an online errata to clarify that the CP9 users really are.

Page One's Armament has never been shown to be anything special and I cannot recall any instance of him using hardening, unlike some of his Tobi Roppo colleagues. Smoker and Vergo were both shown as better CoA users than him.

Page One is a Yonko's mid tier but so is Curiel who was matched with Moria in Marineford and nothing special happened, whereas when Jinbe was facing him, he completely overwhelmed him.

We'll have to stop overinflating the Yonko crews. All of the commanders are behind Crocodile in their perfomance in Marineford, they didn't leave as much an impact on the war as him or Luffy himself or freaking Mr. 3.

Pre-skip Luffy is 400M, Page One is 290M. Pre skip Luffy took out characters and institutions that are far more central to the world Oda created than Page One.

The opponents that the Straw Hats really struggled with pre skip are all stronger than Page One: Oars, Kuma, Sentomaru, Kizaru, Magellan, ... Luffy brought the latter to his knees. He is someone who supposedly fought with all of the Level 6 escapees Blackbeard released, and survived.
Zoro also could cause damage to Kuma with Shishi Sonson, Asura should definitely have great impact on Page One.

We also get characters comparable to the Supernova in form of Cavendish and Bartolomeo. The former has been in the New World for longer than the Worst Generation, yet is weaker than them, but still had established himself as an indepent Pirate in the New World. Bartolomeo has only been in the New World for one year but ate Maynard for breakfast.

All of the Supernova except the Straw Hats entered the New World without training (that was even specifically cut for each character!), yet the all pulled of crazy stuff in the two years preceding the storyline. Drake is pretty much implied to have joined the Beast Pirates quite immediately after entering the New World.

Lastly, you have to keep in mind the incompleteness of the list. The Charlottes are a huge block of powerful characters, with the as of yet unranked probably filling out a lot of the lower New World and the Paradise tier, but its very hard to include them, since while an internal ranking is quite possible, its hard to put that in the grid.

Wano arc characters are also mostly missing. It is even more messy here, I feel like Oda somewhat lost tabs on all his characters in the war, like if I compare it to Enies Lobby, I do have quite the idea of Zambai etc., but the Yakuza bosses...uff.

So my plan is to go through the alphabetical all characters category in the wiki until I have completed everything pre-wci.

I personally like the Tiers of your list. As we seen Pre TS Luffy be able to defeat the Boa Sisters & they were haki users. This imo should be your benchmark when comparing New World characters to Paradise Characters…

So Yes. You have characters like P1; XDrake; Gecko in the wrong tier.

The whole Smoker/Vergo/Sanji/Law Debate…..It’s Law > Vergo > Sanji/Smoker.

Why would post skip Sanji before power ups be in the same tier as Smoker, he has no feats suggesting that? But honestly, had Sanji been in Smoker's place, and otherwise the same fight happened, people would probably not question that Sanji could have low diffed Vergo had he not tried to get the heart or something.

Law was losing because he was at a disadvantage with his heart gone. He stomped once he stopped being at a disadvantage.

Yeah, no question. It's still Law's most powerful move pre-awakenening, except for Gamma Knife

Sanji sadly needed his RS & multiple arcs to show feats of superiority over Vergo; Vergo was simply stronger & Has better feats in PH arc than Sanji did & even in WCI.

Yeah, which is why post skip Sanji > Smoker, too.

Smoker took A L from Law easy. Then he took another L & beat down from Vergo. Forced to help a Pirate the only other person around that could have defeated Vergo. Smoker physically & his haki was lower than Vergo’s.

Except that there is no beat down. For two of the three chapters that showcase the fight, Smoker is shown having the upperhand, so readers believed he would win. Only on conclusion its revealed that Smoker had been taking hits, and he goes down with Vergo's next strike but succeeds in getting the heart.

Honestly, that all was 10 years ago and I can feel the anime to have sipped into the perception of the readers here a lot.

 

[grey matter]

Who cares if the Boa sisters are haki users? They got solo by pre timeskip Luffy.

The same Luffy was probably as strong as a Pacifista.

Sanji immediately coming out of TS could one shot a Pacifista.
Page One > beginning of Wano base Sanji > Sanji that one shot Pacifista >> pre TS Luffy > Boa Sisters

Easiest scaling of my life.

Haki or no haki doesn't matter. If you hit hard enough, you can damage the opponent unless he's a logia or few other exceptions.
Franky, Robin and Brook are relative to Tobiroppo, inspite of them having zero haki.

 

[albertwv]

Luffy already beat two Shishibukai, and Rob Lucci and Blueno of CP9, as well as the Gorgon Sisters Marigold and Sandersonia. The latter four are all CoA users. They even had an online errata to clarify that the CP9 users really are.

Page One's Armament has never been shown to be anything special and I cannot recall any instance of him using hardening, unlike some of his Tobi Roppo colleagues. Smoker and Vergo were both shown as better CoA users than him.

Page One is a Yonko's mid tier but so is Curiel who was matched with Moria in Marineford and nothing special happened, whereas when Jinbe was facing him, he completely overwhelmed him.

We'll have to stop overinflating the Yonko crews. All of the commanders are behind Crocodile in their perfomance in Marineford, they didn't leave as much an impact on the war as him or Luffy himself or freaking Mr. 3.

Pre-skip Luffy is 400M, Page One is 290M. Pre skip Luffy took out characters and institutions that are far more central to the world Oda created than Page One.

The opponents that the Straw Hats really struggled with pre skip are all stronger than Page One: Oars, Kuma, Sentomaru, Kizaru, Magellan, ... Luffy brought the latter to his knees. He is someone who supposedly fought with all of the Level 6 escapees Blackbeard released, and survived.
Zoro also could cause damage to Kuma with Shishi Sonson, Asura should definitely have great impact on Page One.

Why would post skip Sanji before power ups be in the same tier as Smoker, he has no feats suggesting that? But honestly, had Sanji been in Smoker's place, and otherwise the same fight happened, people would probably not question that Sanji could have low diffed Vergo had he not tried to get the heart or something.

Yeah, no question. It's still Law's most powerful move pre-awakenening, except for Gamma Knife

Yeah, which is why post skip Sanji > Smoker, too.

I shortened my post. I will explain how Page One > Post TS Sanji > Pre TS Characters.

The way I rank Page One is by using logic and reasoning and examples from the manga.
In P1 vs Sanji with Raid Suit (we established that this is a power up for Sanji). But first let's establish a few things, I'm sure most of the readers here will agree that Punk Hazard Sanji is not the same as Wano Sanji much less Raid Suit Sanji. Sanji throughout the NW has progressively gotten stronger as an individual even if there are no apparent power ups mentioned like the Raid Suit.

Therefore a smart person can conclude that Raid Suit Sanji > Wano Sanji > Punk Hazard Sanji. Keep in mind this is important.
The Sanji that was fighting Page One was stronger than the Sanji fighting Vergo.
In Chapter 931, page 8, we see Sanji in his Raid Suit mentioning how durable and faster the suit is, granting him a stronger defense and faster speed.
In page 9, we see P1 attack Sanji, with Sanji blocking it with a kick (Sanji's skill) and send Sanji flying several blocks.
Sanji then comments that it hurt a bit, but the suit is durable, interpreting that it was thanks to the suit's defense that the attack by Page 1 did not hurt as much as it would. Then we have no other fight scenes and later on we see Sanji being fine (days later). We never get an actual conclusion not even by mention. But I would conclude that Raid Suit Sanji defeated P1 with somewhat mid difficulty. And Im sure most readers would agree.
From that I can go back and say since Raid Suit Sanji > Wano Sanji > PH Sanji then Page 1 > PH Sanji.

Now Vergo vs PH Sanji, one of the most heated debates. I argue Vergo > Sanji, chapter 681.
Chp. 681, pg 17, Vergo kicks Sanji and Sanji blocks with his leg. In this page it is important to note that Sanji's leg bone was cracking from blocking Vergo's kick and Sanji expresses through his face that it really hurt him. Then they clash with their legs a few more times.
Before this panel, Sanji had kicked and injured Vergo twice, stating that Vergo was like a mass of iron.
We have no idea if Vergo or Sanji used CoA in their attacks but since we see no coating, I can assume Vergo did NOT use CoA in his battle with Sanji, unlike his battle with Smoker and Law.

In the next chapter 682, page 5, after Vergo left to find Law, we see Sanji suffer from the aftershock of the fight in his leg. Sanji himself states that if the fight would have continued on it would have been.... this implies it would have gone bad for Sanji and maybe even worse condition for his leg. I think Sanji admitted to himself that Vergo was stronger.
So I can deduce that Vergo > PH Sanji.

Ultimately leading to Raid Suit Sanji > Page One > Wano Sanji >= Vergo > Punk Hazard Sanji.

One last thing. If you continuing claiming that P1 is weaker than Pre Timeskip Luffy, Zolo, Pre TS Lucci, etc. then by association you are claiming that Vergo and Punk Hazard Sanji are weaker than all those Pre Time skip characters and it destroys the whole power level scaling and the so called world building you keep mentioning. I refuse to believe that Pre TS Zolo or Lucci can defeat a Post TS Sanji.
Post TS Sanji could one shot a Pacifista while Pre TS Zolo could NOT one shot it and had to combine his strongest attack Ashura with Sanji's Diable Jambe and Luffy's Gear 3 punch to finish off the Pacifista, AFTER the Pacifista had fought the entire SH crew, chapter 510 page 18.
Post TS Sanji > Pacifista > Pre TS Luffy > Pre TS Lucci > Pre TS Zolo with Ashura or whatever.

You see @McNuss, that is how you defend and support your claims, with factual reasoning and supportive evidence from credible sources. No head cannon or imagination or opinions.
Sorry to all for the long post but somebody had to prove McNuss how wrong he is with evidence.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Never thought I'd see Sanji vs Vergo discussions in the year 2022.

 

[Fox666]

I shortened my post. I will explain how Page One > Post TS Sanji > Pre TS Characters.

The way I rank Page One is by using logic and reasoning and examples from the manga.
In P1 vs Sanji with Raid Suit (we established that this is a power up for Sanji). But first let's establish a few things, I'm sure most of the readers here will agree that Punk Hazard Sanji is not the same as Wano Sanji much less Raid Suit Sanji. Sanji throughout the NW has progressively gotten stronger as an individual even if there are no apparent power ups mentioned like the Raid Suit.

Therefore a smart person can conclude that Raid Suit Sanji > Wano Sanji > Punk Hazard Sanji. Keep in mind this is important.
The Sanji that was fighting Page One was stronger than the Sanji fighting Vergo.
In Chapter 931, page 8, we see Sanji in his Raid Suit mentioning how durable and faster the suit is, granting him a stronger defense and faster speed.
In page 9, we see P1 attack Sanji, with Sanji blocking it with a kick (Sanji's skill) and send Sanji flying several blocks.
Sanji then comments that it hurt a bit, but the suit is durable, interpreting that it was thanks to the suit's defense that the attack by Page 1 did not hurt as much as it would. Then we have no other fight scenes and later on we see Sanji being fine (days later). We never get an actual conclusion not even by mention. But I would conclude that Raid Suit Sanji defeated P1 with somewhat mid difficulty. And Im sure most readers would agree.
From that I can go back and say since Raid Suit Sanji > Wano Sanji > PH Sanji then Page 1 > PH Sanji.

Now Vergo vs PH Sanji, one of the most heated debates. I argue Vergo > Sanji, chapter 681.
Chp. 681, pg 17, Vergo kicks Sanji and Sanji blocks with his leg. In this page it is important to note that Sanji's leg bone was cracking from blocking Vergo's kick and Sanji expresses through his face that it really hurt him. Then they clash with their legs a few more times.
Before this panel, Sanji had kicked and injured Vergo twice, stating that Vergo was like a mass of iron.
We have no idea if Vergo or Sanji used CoA in their attacks but since we see no coating, I can assume Vergo did NOT use CoA in his battle with Sanji, unlike his battle with Smoker and Law.

In the next chapter 682, page 5, after Vergo left to find Law, we see Sanji suffer from the aftershock of the fight in his leg. Sanji himself states that if the fight would have continued on it would have been.... this implies it would have gone bad for Sanji and maybe even worse condition for his leg. I think Sanji admitted to himself that Vergo was stronger.
So I can deduce that Vergo > PH Sanji.

Ultimately leading to Raid Suit Sanji > Page One > Wano Sanji >= Vergo > Punk Hazard Sanji.

One last thing. If you continuing claiming that P1 is weaker than Pre Timeskip Luffy, Zolo, Pre TS Lucci, etc. then by association you are claiming that Vergo and Punk Hazard Sanji are weaker than all those Pre Time skip characters and it destroys the whole power level scaling and the so called world building you keep mentioning. I refuse to believe that Pre TS Zolo or Lucci can defeat a Post TS Sanji.
Post TS Sanji could one shot a Pacifista while Pre TS Zolo could NOT one shot it and had to combine his strongest attack Ashura with Sanji's Diable Jambe and Luffy's Gear 3 punch to finish off the Pacifista, AFTER the Pacifista had fought the entire SH crew, chapter 510 page 18.
Post TS Sanji > Pacifista > Pre TS Luffy > Pre TS Lucci > Pre TS Zolo with Ashura or whatever.

You see @McNuss, that is how you defend and support your claims, with factual reasoning and supportive evidence from credible sources. No head cannon or imagination or opinions.
Sorry to all for the long post but somebody had to prove McNuss how wrong he is with evidence.

All that to explain why Page One is stronger than pre-timeskip characters?

Here's my power level list


Pre-timeskip:

- Luffy: 160
---- Gear 2: 240
- Zoro: 140
- Sanji: 140

- Rob Lucci: 240
- Pacifista: 350


Post-timeskip:

- Luffy: 600
---- Gear 4: 900
- Zoro: 540
- Sanji: 540
- Law: 800

- Smoker: 600
- Vergo: 650
- Trebol/Pica/Diamante: 450


Start of Wano:

- Luffy: 800
---- Gear 4: 1,200
- Zoro: 720
- Sanji: 720
- Law: 1,100

- Page One: 750
- Drake: 1,000
- Kaido: 4,500


End of Wano:

- Luffy: 3,000
---- Gear 5: 4,500
- Zoro: 1,200
- Sanji: 1,200
- Law: 2,500
- Kid: 2,500
- Yamato: 2,800

- Page One: 750
- Drake: 1,000
- Kaido: 4,500

 

[grey matter]

All that to explain why Page One is stronger than pre-timeskip characters?

Here's my power level list


Pre-timeskip:

- Luffy: 160
---- Gear 2: 240
- Zoro: 140
- Sanji: 140

- Rob Lucci: 240
- Pacifista: 350


Post-timeskip:

- Luffy: 600
---- Gear 4: 900
- Zoro: 540
- Sanji: 540
- Law: 800

- Smoker: 600
- Vergo: 650
- Trebol/Pica/Diamante: 450


Start of Wano:

- Luffy: 800
---- Gear 4: 1,200
- Zoro: 720
- Sanji: 720
- Law: 1,100

- Page One: 750
- Drake: 1,000
- Kaido: 4,500


End of Wano:

- Luffy: 3,000
---- Gear 5: 4,500
- Zoro: 1,200
- Sanji: 1,200
- Law: 2,500
- Kid: 2,500
- Yamato: 2,800

- Page One: 750
- Drake: 1,000
- Kaido: 4,500

He actually explained it better based on logical scaling, without relying on random numbers.

Also, your numbers are bad. Few instances:
- Zoro and Sanji pre TS below base Luffy? Nah. They got their own powerups in the EL arc. Base Luffy and Blueno were kinda evenly matched, while Zoro and Sanji defeated much stronger opponents after they got their powerups
- Zoro and Sanji are same power level? Nah again. Zoro is stronger, this is not debatable.
- Gap between current Luffy and Kaido isn't that big. Luffy will give him a high-extreme diff even without G5, your numbers make it seem like it's some mid diff.
- Yamato, Law and Kid more than twice as strong as current Zoro. Wow....current Sanji himself would give them a mid-high, let alone Zoro. And no, Law/Kid/Yamato are not that close to Luffy, Luffy would mid diff them.

 

[Fox666]

- Zoro and Sanji pre TS below base Luffy? Nah. They got their own powerups in the EL arc. Base Luffy and Blueno were kinda evenly matched, while Zoro and Sanji defeated much stronger opponents after they got their powerups

Luffy was evenly matched with Rob Lucci before using Gear 2

And Luffy is the only who got a "power-up", Zoro and Sanji only have new finisher moves

- Zoro and Sanji are same power level? Nah again. Zoro is stronger, this is not debatable.

The difference is not enough to bother with it

- Gap between current Luffy and Kaido isn't that big. Luffy will give him a high-extreme diff even without G5, your numbers make it seem like it's some mid diff.

When Luffy used Gear 4, Kaido pulled some new tricks... so I think he wasn't giving everything he had all the time.

- Yamato, Law and Kid more than twice as strong as current Zoro. Wow....current Sanji himself would give them a mid-high, let alone Zoro. And no, Law/Kid/Yamato are not that close to Luffy, Luffy would mid diff them.

Yamato could fight Kaido on his own, that automatically puts him very close to Luffy

Law and Kid is hard to tell... but their awakening was a pain in the ass to Big Mom

At the start of Wano arc, Luffy had already defeated a Emperor right-hand, and was one-shot by Kaido... there's still an abyss between Kaido and Zoro, and by extension there's an abyss between these who can fight the Emperors and Zoro.

 

[Nie Li]

Yamato could fight Kaido on his own, that automatically puts him very close to Luffy

Law and Kid is hard to tell... but their awakening was a pain in the ass to Big Mom

At the start of Wano arc, Luffy had already defeated a Emperor right-hand, and was one-shot by Kaido... there's still an abyss between Kaido and Zoro, and by extension there's an abyss between these who can fight the Emperors and Zoro.

Some people love diminishing Zoro's slash on Kaido because "it was a cut, so of course it's gonna bleed and scar him, it's a cat scratch", but then don't acknowledge Zoro's slashes never push his opponents, for them to fall from his cuts they need their strength to falter. Unlike Yamato's "bonk", which is a physical hit which pushes the opponent.

Biggest double standard in a while.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 24, 2022, Original Post Date: Sep 24, 2022 ---

At the start of Wano arc, Luffy had already defeated a Emperor right-hand, and was one-shot by Kaido... there's still an abyss between Kaido and Zoro, and by extension there's an abyss between these who can fight the Emperors and Zoro.

And this would make sense if either Law or Kid could solo Big Mom, but they can't. Zoro can also fight an emperor with help, his haki now being much superior to Law's and Kid's thanks to CoC coating.

 

[grey matter]

Luffy was evenly matched with Rob Lucci before using Gear 2

And Luffy is the only who got a "power-up", Zoro and Sanji only have new finisher moves

Why are you just showing this, but not the whole picture?

Lucci was EASILY dealing with Luffy before he pulled out the G2. Like, he was smacking around him and Franky at the same time.

The difference is not enough to bother with it

Zoro is closer to Law/Kid than to Sanji.
Law/Kid/Zoro are all in the same tier.

Zoro scarred Kaido with an accident outburst of conqueror's haki. Now he can willingly clad his swords in conqueror's haki.

When Luffy used Gear 4, Kaido pulled some new tricks... so I think he wasn't giving everything he had all the time.

What you just said Kaido pulled up new tricks that he never demonstrated before against G4 Luffy, and then you're saying Kaido didn't give everything he had? What is that logic??

Hybrid Kaido started using all his drunken modes, and got PTSD from his interrupted fight with Oden when Luffy also fell to distraction.

Indicating that G4 Luffy was definitely at a level where Kaido thought Luffy at least had a remote chance of winning.

G4 Luffy is definitely relative to Kaido, even if he's weaker.
It's at least a high diff. They are dead equal in combat, but Kaido has more stamina and durability.

Yamato could fight Kaido on his own, that automatically puts him very close to Luffy

Law and Kid is hard to tell... but their awakening was a pain in the ass to Big Mom

At the start of Wano arc, Luffy had already defeated a Emperor right-hand, and was one-shot by Kaido... there's still an abyss between Kaido and Zoro, and by extension there's an abyss between these who can fight the Emperors and Zoro.

LOOOL

You stab someone, he doesn't fall down.
You punch someone, he falls down.

Punch >>>>>>>>>> Stab
Your logic

Beginning of Wano Luffy, who could do ZERO damage to Kaido, could also knock Kaido to the ground.
I suppose beginning of Wano Luffy has higher attack power than rooftop Zoro


The "he didn't even fall down" was obviously to create the distinction between what Oden did, vs what Zoro could accomplish at that point in time, not to make comparison between blunt force and sword attacks

As for Law/Kid.
Yeah, they were a pain in the ass in a 2v1 fight. Individually it would be a mid diff at best, and current Zoro can definitely give BM a similar challenge.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 24, 2022, Original Post Date: Sep 24, 2022 ---

Some people love diminishing Zoro's slash on Kaido because "it was a cut, so of course it's gonna bleed and scar him, it's a cat scratch", but then don't acknowledge Zoro's slashes never push his opponents, for them to fall from his cuts they need their strength to falter. Unlike Yamato's "bonk", which is a physical hit which pushes the opponent.

Biggest double standard in a while.

Exactly.
Basic sword vs blunt force logic.

Anyone not truly getting it is low IQ, sorry no other way to put it.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Some people love diminishing Zoro's slash on Kaido because "it was a cut, so of course it's gonna bleed and scar him, it's a cat scratch", but then don't acknowledge Zoro's slashes never push his opponents, for them to fall from his cuts they need their strength to falter. Unlike Yamato's "bonk", which is a physical hit which pushes the opponent.

This is disingenuous.

Zoro himself was upset he couldn't make Kaido fall.

Yes blunt force makes it easier to knock someone down and slashing makes it easier to make someone bleed but people were expecting Zoro could make Kaido bleed.

Zoro himself was the one who set that bar no one else did.

Now. Is Zoro an Idiot for thinking his attack could do little more than scratch Kaido? Yes, but Law, Kidd, and Luffy were also idiots for playing chicken with one of big mom's fire attacks

 

[XXGenesis]

Let’s discuss the Surgeon of Death. I wouldn’t dare Rank him outside of YC1+…but there’s a big issue with his characters portryal….All of Law’s Major feats are created from openings made from another character….

Just how effective is Law really against someone in his Tier or higher when 1 vs 1. A lot of his techniques have only been pulled off because there was someone else there….Takes???

 

[grey matter]

Let’s discuss the Surgeon of Death. I wouldn’t dare Rank him outside of YC1+…but there’s a big issue with his characters portryal….All of Law’s Major feats are created from openings made from another character….

Just how effective is Law really against someone in his Tier or higher when 1 vs 1. A lot of his techniques have only been pulled off because there was someone else there….Takes???

Yeah, against competent CQC fighters, Law would struggle.

Within his tier, it comes down to matchup really. I'd consider three fighters that I consider within that tier, to explain what I mean. Kid, Zoro and Marco.

- Kid is more of a brawler, he's brute power, tank and less combat skill. I think Law will mid diff Kid.
- Zoro has great combat speed and reflex, Law would find it very hard to land hits on him. But all Law needs, is a few shots, I think Law can 3 shot Zoro (Law should be able to get at least that many blows on Zoro). Law wins against Zoro high-extreme diff
- Marco would be Law's greatest nightmare. Marco is even better than Zoro in combat speed, making it incredibly hard for Law to land attacks. Law's techniques eat up stamina, and he's facing against someone who casually heals up his arm being chopped off. Marco wins with mid diff

This is disingenuous.

Zoro himself was upset he couldn't make Kaido fall.

Yes blunt force makes it easier to knock someone down and slashing makes it easier to make someone bleed but people were expecting Zoro could make Kaido bleed.

Zoro himself was the one who set that bar no one else did.

Now. Is Zoro an Idiot for thi king his attack could do little more than scratch Kaido? Yes, but Law, Kidd, and Luffy were also idiots for playing chicken with one of big mom's fire attacks

Yeah, Zoro though he could at least briefly knock down Kaido with his slash, which turned out to be the same thing Oden did.
Kaido not falling down, was Oda's way to demonstrate the distinction between what Oden did, versus what Zoro could manage at his level during rooftop.

The narrative clearly is to compare what Zoro did, to what Oden did. Zoro was able to scar Kaido like Oden did, but what Oden did was superior because Oden also knocked Kaido down. This is clearly Oda's intent, because throughout the fight Zoro was being paralleled with Oden.

I think current Zoro using Asura could definitely replicate what Oden did, i.e scar him AND knock him down.

Also, it's clear downplay to say Zoro just scratched Kaido, it was deep enough and Kaido said it would remain a scar.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Yeah, against competent CQC fighters, Law would struggle.

Within his tier, it comes down to matchup really. I'd consider three fighters that I consider within that tier, to explain what I mean. Kid, Zoro and Marco.

- Kid is more of a brawler, he's brute power, tank and less combat skill. I think Law will mid diff Kid.
- Zoro has great combat speed and reflex, Law would find it very hard to land hits on him. But all Law needs, is a few shots, I think Law can 3 shot Zoro (Law should be able to get at least that many blows on Zoro). Law wins against Zoro high-extreme diff
- Marco would be Law's greatest nightmare. Marco is even better than Zoro in combat speed, making it incredibly hard for Law to land attacks. Law's techniques eat up stamina, and he's facing against someone who casually heals up his arm being chopped off. Marco wins with mid diff



Yeah, Zoro though he could at least briefly knock down Kaido with his slash, which turned out to be the same thing Oden did.
Kaido not falling down, was Oda's way to demonstrate the distinction between what Oden did, versus what Zoro could manage at his level during rooftop.

The narrative clearly is to compare what Zoro did, to what Oden did. Zoro was able to scar Kaido like Oden did, but what Oden did was superior because Oden also knocked Kaido down. This is clearly Oda's intent, because throughout the fight Zoro was being paralleled with Oden.

I think current Zoro using Asura could definitely replicate what Oden did, i.e scar him AND knock him down.

Also, it's clear downplay to say Zoro just scratched Kaido, it was deep enough and Kaido said it would remain a scar.

Asura Zoro with Advanced CoC could very possibly knock him down if it landed. At worst it can cut through Kaido's club if he didnt coat it in his own haki

And scratches are deep enough to scar. Ask any cat owner

 

[Nie Li]

This is disingenuous.

Zoro himself was upset he couldn't make Kaido fall.

Yes blunt force makes it easier to knock someone down and slashing makes it easier to make someone bleed but people were expecting Zoro could make Kaido bleed.

Zoro himself was the one who set that bar no one else did.

Now. Is Zoro an Idiot for thinking his attack could do little more than scratch Kaido? Yes, but Law, Kidd, and Luffy were also idiots for playing chicken with one of big mom's fire attacks

Zoro hoped he would do more than he could, yes, what does that have to do with the comparison being bad and silly? Once again calling his attack a scratch and diminishing it because it affected Kaido differently than a blunt attack.

You ignored the point of my post.

Yes, cutting makes it easier to make someone bleed, but the effect of his cut was way above what other swordsmen like the Nine Scabbards could, while attacking all together on the same spot at the same time, by Kaido's own admission. And every one of those 9 can make Kaido "bleed" with a slash, so Zoro's attack was definitely above simply cutting him because he wields a blade.

Also, in the same spirit of comparing weapons, hitting someone downward with a club makes it "easier" to push him onto the ground. Using that as a means to say "Yamato is stronger than Zoro because Zoro was sad he couldn't make Kaido fall but Yamato did" is what is truly disingenuous. Zoro did Kaido tremble with his slash, it simply would have taken Kaido to be truly close to defeat to go down with a slash.

You only take into account it was a slashing attack for one aspect (the aspect that serves to diminish the feat), but entirely ignore it for his comparison with Yamato ("coincidentally" ignoring it also serves the same purpose). What's disingenuous about pointing that out?