One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Pirate Queen]

To be fair, it's not just Haki infusion that does that

I'm not sure how what you posted relates to my point?

The point is the attack BB used uses the same sound effects as ACoC not the Gura Gura, which makes a different sound effect.

It was clearly black lightening being used as the sound was "ZAP"

People ignore the sound effects alot but if you pay attention to those it can help clarify alot.

The Gura Gura would never make a Zap sound because quakes don't sound like lightening. It really shouldn't be a hard concept for readers to understand.

Certainly not directed at you however @Fox666

 

[Nie Li]

I'm not sure how what you posted relates to my point?

The point is the attack BB used uses the same sound effects as ACoC not the Gura Gura, which makes a different sound effect.

It was clearly black lightening being used as the sound was "ZAP"

People ignore the sound effects alot but if you pay attention to those it can help clarify alot.

The Gura Gura would never make a Zap sound because quakes don't sound like lightening. It really shouldn't be a hard concept for readers to understand.

Certainly not directed at you however @Fox666

It relates in that it's not necessarily aCoC, even if it's not Gura Gura.

 

[Pirate Queen]

It relates in that it's not necessarily aCoC, even if it's not Gura Gura.

What do you think it is? Baring in mind it makes the same sound as black lightening from ACoC

The claim went from:

"We don't know if it's ACoC or CoA lightening"

I debunked that

And then the chapter came out and people said, "it's still not clear"

So I gave more evidence.

Then the next chapter comes out and the claim is now that it was cracks from the Gura Gura

Now I have equally disproven that due to the sound effects that had been made.

And no one claiming it isn't ACoC can explain why black lightening that looks and sounds like ACoC is present without it being ACoC lol


Like I said, I'm willing to admit Oda made a mistake if it isn't ACoC but the fact remains it was drawn, written, and has the sound effects of ACoC

 

[kkck]

In regards to black lightning, the series is not consistent on whether it's due to cladding or just using conqueror's haki. Back at dressrosa we had clashes between luffy and chinjao and luffy and doflamingo and in both cases characters noted this was a clash between conqueror haki users and haki in both we saw black lightning going in every direction. Essentially, black lightning at the most shows the person has active conqueror haki but not necessarily cladding. The visual representation of cladding so far is the black lightning specifically emanating from a weapon or limb like we have seen from kaido, roger, WB, yamato...

 

[Pirate Queen]

In regards to black lightning, the series is not consistent on whether it's due to cladding or just using conqueror's haki. Back at dressrosa we had clashes between luffy and chinjao and luffy and doflamingo and in both cases characters noted this was a clash between conqueror haki users and haki in both we saw black lightning going in every direction. Essentially, black lightning at the most shows the person has active conqueror haki but not necessarily cladding. The visual representation of cladding so far is the black lightning specifically emanating from a weapon or limb like we have seen from kaido, roger, WB, yamato...

I would just be happy if people could admit it to themselves that it was neither the Gura Gura nor ACoA.

If people want to think what BB showed here

is a one sided basic CoC haki clash with himself and the ocean, that's on them and I just dont really care.

It presents like CoC and people won't even agree on that, consistency or not.

 

[XXGenesis]

@albertwv As you said I’ve also been fed up with Oda. Bounties being handed out like as if they were Power levels basically LoL; Warlords New hype; As of lately the inconsistency of Haki….

I’m enjoying the Plot Since departure from Wano.
A lot of shit has gone down. My fav so far is BB vs Law

 

[Core D. Roy]

I love how Law's grab bag powers were all shelved immediately after Punk Hazard. Dude could incapacitate entire crews by swapping enemies' minds, could give his whole damn crew wings and other animal limbs if he wanted, can casually remove peoples' literal hearts, can make a Room big as a mountain but can't seem to just teleport his DF enemies directly into the ocean and his big final move awakening is just sword-but-real-big. What a disappointment.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Damn the whole BB aCoC thing still going on

All the panels make me wonder if there is another level to aCoC like aCoA had 2 levels. I'd bet it would using aCoC from a distance to do physical harm i.e. aim the lighting towards someone or maybe even enhance a DF raw power. Would be cool if this would be Luffy's next hurdle that is such a high bar it would put him as the best haki user in universe.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Oda retconning the Warlords leaves a bad taste. I think it is hard to say that because Hancock and Crocodile and Jimbei have received bounties higher than a YC1, they are automatically YC1 + (minus Jimbe). I personally think Oda over exaggerated in giving them such huge bounties when nothing shows they are of that level. If anything I am disappointed in Oda. But it is probably pure wank. I remember seeing the Warlords with huge bounties and thinking they were a step below the Yonkos. Then after DD's defeat we saw how strong the YC's were with Jack, Cracker and Katakuri, with them being barely around $1billion. The warlords were then forgotten and treated as below YC's. Now the Warlords are given huge bounty amounts that surpass the YC's and people think they are YC1+ now. Lol.
Besides Mihawk who rivals Shanks, no other warlord is close to Kaido/Shanks/BM/WB's level.

Btw, I wouldn't place Sanji as YC1, just yet. I would put him as high YC2. Zolo personally would be a high YC1 but not YC1+ or "low Yonko level".
I don't automatically place them higher after they've defeated a certain character, depending on how the fight went. We saw how exhausted both Sanji and Zolo were after defeating the YC's. Could they defeat them in a second round, both fighters full health? I definitely think so, with still some difficulty BUT will win either way.
Just like I don't believe current Luffy is stronger than Kaido in a second 1v1. but let's not go down that road.

He’s not retconning per say
I think people are connecting bounties to straight up power
Kid and law are both 3b men , Zoro is 1.1
And they’re somewhat on the same level
Captains bounties will always far exceed commander bounties
Hancock is a captain + ruler with a a busted fruit that’s enough boost
Mihawk was never retconned
People need to realize the shichibukai weren’t trying at marineford and were almost actively sabotaging the marines
There’s a reason they were the third force placed to face the yonkou
Crocodile the only somewhat retcon
Moriah had clearly fallen off

 

[Rein Avara]

Crocodile the only somewhat retcon

Even then, I highly doubt his bounty is a direct correlation of his current strength, it's more to do with his intelligence and how he's able to scheme, especially off the back of the incidents in Alabasta.

 

[Rmstorm]

Damn the whole BB aCoC thing still going on

All the panels make me wonder if there is another level to aCoC like aCoA had 2 levels. I'd bet it would using aCoC from a distance to do physical harm i.e. aim the lighting towards someone or maybe even enhance a DF raw power. Would be cool if this would be Luffy's next hurdle that is such a high bar it would put him as the best haki user in universe.

Luffy used this in chapter 1044 when he had hiss second haki bloom post "dying" and Awakening. It even had Kaido shook.

 

[Franckie]

Maybe someone can explain to me the whole YC1, YC2, etc. because it literally makes no sense to me. Oda doesn't think in those terms. Rather, he does the following:

• People "stronger" than an Admiral (e.g., Kaido, decanonized Zephyr)
• People "equal" to an Admiral (e.g., Marco, possibly Ben Beckman)
• People who can briefly match an Admiral (e.g., Old Rayleigh)

Oda has indicated that the Yonkou are "equal" to each other and that the Admirals are "equal" to each other. Regarding Commanders, however, they vary in power and little is known about them. With the Sweet Commanders, 2 are unknown (Snack + Smoothie). With the WB pirates, they vary in power whereas the bulk of unknowns. Marco fought "equal" to the Admirals and Vista fought "equal" to Mihawk whereas others like Jozu were turned into a footstool. It's only with the Beast Pirates we've seen feats from all 4 "commanders" (Oda has stated that Doflamingo is a de facto member of the Beast Pirates and likened him to elites like King).

To me this looks more like how the manga portrays them has changed along with the power creep. Early in the story they were said to be one of the worlds 3 powers along with the marines and yonko. But its fairly clear 7 shichibukai can't possible compare to the marines or the whole of yonko. In context they were more along the lines of 7 strong but uncooperative folk. It's also the case that the first iteration of shichibukai we saw was lackluster at best. Crocodile was defeated by luffy, by all accounts less than worthless fodder by current standards, and moria was pretty weak as well. During the war it took the whole of marine forces to actually put a halt to the WB pirates...

In the end even the shichibukai are merely 7 dudes. The marines and yonko are world powers because they have actual military might.

The Shichibukai always struck me as privateers whose principle purpose is to hunt pirate fodder. Both Mihawk and Crocodile were introduced hunting pirate fodder. Doflamingo during the Jaya Arc was shown taking pirate fodders as allies when he punished Bellamy for his incompetence. Moria too has a reputation for hunting fodder. Hancock is known to attack pirates on occasion. Lastly, Kuma has a reputation for being brutal toward his opponents, as showcased with Zoro and pirate fodder.

 

[Core D. Roy]

Maybe someone can explain to me the whole YC1, YC2, etc. because it literally makes no sense to me. Oda doesn't think in those terms. Rather, he does the following:

• People "stronger" than an Admiral (e.g., Kaido, decanonized Zephyr)
• People "equal" to an Admiral (e.g., Marco, possibly Ben Beckman)
• People who can briefly match an Admiral (e.g., Old Rayleigh)

Oda has indicated that the Yonkou are "equal" to each other and that the Admirals are "equal" to each other. Regarding Commanders, however, they vary in power and little is known about them. With the Sweet Commanders, 2 are unknown (Snack + Smoothie). With the WB pirates, they vary in power whereas the bulk of unknowns. Marco fought "equal" to the Admirals and Vista fought "equal" to Mihawk whereas others like Jozu were turned into a footstool. It's only with the Beast Pirates we've seen feats from all 4 "commanders" (Oda has stated that Doflamingo is a de facto member of the Beast Pirates and likened him to elites like King).

There's a pretty clear difference in most crews between YC1/YC2, and everything below. YC3/YC4 are far more broad and frequently they help scale other non-commander executives, just as a point of reference. Just like there's a pretty clear difference between YC1/YC2 and everything above them. "YC1+" is just a shorthand to describe the scale of people like Marco and Oden and Rayleigh who, while not Emperors, have all demonstrated potential to be one, not just critically by the reader but even in-universe by higher-ups like the Gorosei. This is why we say Primebeard is "Pirate King" level- he was acknowledged as such by characters in the story in the know, and that places him a level above the casual Emperor or Admiral. Too bad time makes fools of us all.

"Oda doesn't think in those terms" is an opinion I don't buy. Sure he isn't iron-clad about it, because it'd be utterly lame if rankings were themselves iron-clad. And also given the DF power system, it just wouldn't work to have DBZ power levels. That doesn't mean he's just throwing shit at a wall to see what sticks when it comes to YC positions.

 

[Franckie]

There's a pretty clear difference in most crews between YC1/YC2, and everything below. YC3/YC4 are far more broad and frequently they help scale other non-commander executives, just as a point of reference. Just like there's a pretty clear difference between YC1/YC2 and everything above them. "YC1+" is just a shorthand to describe the scale of people like Marco and Oden and Rayleigh who, while not Emperors, have all demonstrated potential to be one, not just critically by the reader but even in-universe by higher-ups like the Gorosei. This is why we say Primebeard is "Pirate King" level- he was acknowledged as such by characters in the story in the know, and that places him a level above the casual Emperor or Admiral. Too bad time makes fools of us all.

"Oda doesn't think in those terms" is an opinion I don't buy. Sure he isn't iron-clad about it, because it'd be utterly lame if rankings were themselves iron-clad. And also given the DF power system, it just wouldn't work to have DBZ power levels. That doesn't mean he's just throwing shit at a wall to see what sticks when it comes to YC positions.

YC1, YC2, etc. is fine if limited to 1 organization, like the Beast Pirates. It becomes a problem, however, when this ranking system is applied universally. Large organizations (e.g., Beast Pirates, MHQ) have the widest gaps in power whereas the differences are far lesser with smaller organizations (e.g., Shanks' crew). Furthermore, the #2s vary in power. For example, Ben Beckman is on par with Shanks whereas Marco is not on par with WB. Another issue is using this ranking system for non-Yonkou crews. How exactly does YC1 scale to the Admirals? Do they scale to Jozu who lost an arm to an Admiral or to an Old Rayleigh who can stalemate an Admiral until his stamina issues kick in?

Oda doesn't think in terms of YC1, YC2, etc. Yet he does have a general idea of how rankings go. Top-tiers collectively are referred to as legendaries within the manga. Characters like Ace are at the very bottom whereas characters like Roger and Kaido are at the very top. Admirals fall midway with the exception of the decanonized Zephyr. Oda also has various titles to give people an idea where they go: Admiral, Great Pirate, Swordsmaster, Greater Swordsmaster, World's Strongest Swordsman, etc.

I don't think YC1, YC2, etc. is an appropriate way of scaling top-tiers. Rather, it'd be better to scale them as low, mid, and high.

 

[albertwv]

I don't know I like the YC ranking levels, because it gives us a platform to judge characters who aren't "Yonko Commanders". I think Oda kinda put some emphasis on it during the Yonko Saga for the crews of BM and Kaido. He wanted to show the difference between Cracker and Katakuri as seen with Luffy fighting 2 commanders in one arc. Then at the beginning of Wano, we saw the difference between a "YC1" and an actual Yonko, and a "YC2" vs another Yonko, which kinda threw off everything. We saw how huge the difference was and when we saw Marco, Old Ray, and Yamato we created the "YC1+" in between the YC's and Admirals.

While the YC's ranking are becoming unpopular, I think it was a great replacement for the "S, A, B, C, D" tiers or the "GL, NW, platinum, PK, gold, diamond, etc" tiers, a certain someone created. Also, numbers 0-100, do not work for OP.

Also, I don't believe DD is in the same ranking as King or Katakuri, rather he is in the same ranking as Cracker. I state that due to how Luffy vs Cracker and Luffy vs DD went. Then from there placing DD as a YC3 (either low, mid, high) I can compare other characters (say Jimbei) to how he would fare against DD.
I personally don't think Jimbei could defeat DD, there is no technique I can see Jimbei overpowering DD. Jimbei may be more physically strong and capable martial artists but overall, DD is a better fighter.

YC1+ is reserved for characters that can compete with an Admiral, not necessarily defeat them but can handle them to a point. MF war gave some great but blurry examples. When it first came out, I thought Marcos and Jozu were near Admiral levels. Marco straight up attacked all 3 admirals and only lost to Garp (I won't get into Garp's ranking tho). Not saying that Marcos would win over the Admirals but he could stand a chance better than what King or Kata may. Jozu is tough one, he did manage to make Aokiji bleed (no one but Akainu has done so) and was confident that he could handle Aokiji. The WBP lost the advantage once they were distracted, which people like to ignore when comparing the Admirals vs the WBP.

 

[XXGenesis]

@Franckie Rlly Bro. What’s the difference between High, Mid, Low & 1,2,3……..Pleaseeee Explain….Cause now we are being asinine.

The terms YC1-3 is accepted by the Majority of the fan Base. 1st Mates are also considered commanders so they are YC1, then it follows.


There is a tier above YC1 & Below Yonkou/Admiral….Where they can give low Diffculty to a Low Diff to a Yonkou/Admiral & win a Mid/High Diff Vs YC1….

 

[Franckie]

@Franckie Rlly Bro. What’s the difference between High, Mid, Low & 1,2,3……..Pleaseeee Explain….Cause now we are being asinine.

One Piece is unique in that the author has various ways of giving a general assessment of a character's strength. You have MHQ's ranking system, CP9's ranking system, and the various titles for swordsmen (WSS, greater swordmaster, swordmaster). One ranking system may not even be relevant anymore, which is "Grand Line level" that was introduced during Croc vs Luffy.

I don't recall using 1,2,3. Honestly, I'm not entirely sure what is the most effective ranking system to use when addressing high/top tiers. I don't think it's appropriate though to utilize MHQ's ranking system for Yonkou crews and vice versa because of how they're structured so differently from one another. With MHQ, there are two ranks above the Admirals (Fleet Admiral, Commander-in-Chief), yet the Admirals are stated to be MHQ's strongest fighters. YC1, YC2, YC3 may be appropriate for groups like the Beast Pirates because of the wide gaps in power that exist within their rankings, but I fail to see how this ranking system can be applied universally because the gaps in power for Yonkou crews like Shanks' crew are much smaller compared to their peers.

High vs Mid vs Low is something I'm in the process of working on. I do know Oda uses a rare title for denoting select top tiers: 大海賊 Daikaizoku (Great Pirate in English). Shanks Kaido, Big Mom, and Roger all share this title. This title may be interchangeable with other titles like the Yonkou and Pirate King titles.

The terms YC1-3 is accepted by the Majority of the fan Base. 1st Mates are also considered commanders so they are YC1, then it follows.

There is a tier above YC1 & Below Yonkou/Admiral….Where they can give low Diffculty to a Low Diff to a Yonkou/Admiral & win a Mid/High Diff Vs YC1….

Fanon != canon, and even canon material is inapplicable under select situations: outliers, retcons, and plot induced stupidity.

How exactly is someone like Ben Beckman a YC1? Ben is stated in both the Vivre Card and databook to be on par with Shanks. That suggests he is just as strong, if not stronger, than the Admirals. Isn't it better to assess commanders individually than a questionable one size fits all approach?

 

[HereNThere]

Maybe someone can explain to me the whole YC1, YC2, etc. because it literally makes no sense to me. Oda doesn't think in those terms. Rather, he does the following:

• People "stronger" than an Admiral (e.g., Kaido, decanonized Zephyr)
• People "equal" to an Admiral (e.g., Marco, possibly Ben Beckman)
• People who can briefly match an Admiral (e.g., Old Rayleigh)

Oda has indicated that the Yonkou are "equal" to each other and that the Admirals are "equal" to each other. Regarding Commanders, however, they vary in power and little is known about them. With the Sweet Commanders, 2 are unknown (Snack + Smoothie). With the WB pirates, they vary in power whereas the bulk of unknowns. Marco fought "equal" to the Admirals and Vista fought "equal" to Mihawk whereas others like Jozu were turned into a footstool. It's only with the Beast Pirates we've seen feats from all 4 "commanders" (Oda has stated that Doflamingo is a de facto member of the Beast Pirates and likened him to elites like King).

It was basically a quick scaling guideline fans used to tier certain characters during the previous saga. Oda patterned the Yonkou, Big Mom's 3 Sweet Commanders and Kaido's All Stars specifically, to consist of the Captain and three notable underlings that were always portrayed as being above the rest of the crew, i.e. YC1, YC2, and YC3.

Personally, I've eased back on using it to rank characters as things are ramping up and getting a bit more muddled, as you've already pointed out using Marco, Beckman, and Vista as examples. At the least, I don't think characters going forward can easily be tossed into those categories. Hell, I consider Luffy's "Elite 3" are, in my opinion, well above those standards at this point, though it makes sense given his eventual Pirate King status.

 

[XXGenesis]

One Piece is unique in that the author has various ways of giving a general assessment of a character's strength. You have MHQ's ranking system, CP9's ranking system, and the various titles for swordsmen (WSS, greater swordmaster, swordmaster). One ranking system may not even be relevant anymore, which is "Grand Line level" that was introduced during Croc vs Luffy.

I don't recall using 1,2,3. Honestly, I'm not entirely sure what is the most effective ranking system to use when addressing high/top tiers. I don't think it's appropriate though to utilize MHQ's ranking system for Yonkou crews and vice versa because of how they're structured so differently from one another. With MHQ, there are two ranks above the Admirals (Fleet Admiral, Commander-in-Chief), yet the Admirals are stated to be MHQ's strongest fighters. YC1, YC2, YC3 may be appropriate for groups like the Beast Pirates because of the wide gaps in power that exist within their rankings, but I fail to see how this ranking system can be applied universally because the gaps in power for Yonkou crews like Shanks' crew are much smaller compared to their peers.

High vs Mid vs Low is something I'm in the process of working on. I do know Oda uses a rare title for denoting select top tiers: 大海賊 Daikaizoku (Great Pirate in English). Shanks Kaido, Big Mom, and Roger all share this title. This title may be interchangeable with other titles like the Yonkou and Pirate King titles.


Fanon != canon, and even canon material is inapplicable under select situations: outliers, retcons, and plot induced stupidity.

How exactly is someone like Ben Beckman a YC1? Ben is stated in both the Vivre Card and databook to be on par with Shanks. That suggests he is just as strong, if not stronger, than the Admirals. Isn't it better to assess commanders individually than a questionable one size fits all approach?

I still think your being a bit picky.

One Piece has too many characters & not enough manga content to go off to List/Rank the characters from #1-#??. That’s how most list work when dealing with few characters.

When dealing with a Big cast Tiers/Spectrum/Levels comes into place. As there are clear difference in capabilities of those on different levels/Tier…Your suggestion of High/Mid/Low is still applicable to using Levels & Tiers. Would be applicable to One Piece as being in the same Level/Tier does not make you equal to someone else on that tier.

Using the titles of One Piece would get us no where..Such a WSM,WSS, WSC. The Narrative also hypes events & titles that aren’t accurate or outdated.

Fandom doesn’t have a proper term or title for the level in between Yonkou/Admiral & YC1…So we use YC1+……To distinguish Admiral from Yonkou doesn’t make any sense. The titles hold the same weight. You are either Admiral/Yonkou lv OR you are YC1+…

Marco is not Equal to an Admiral.
Marco fought 2 commanders he didn’t win.
An Admiral No diff same 2 commanders & their supporting cast; Marco cannot defeat any Admirals.

Ben Beckman is a 1st Mate. He is not equal to Shanks. He’s hyped to be stronger than most other 1st Mates; So he’s YC1+

 

[Pirate Queen]

Ben Beckman is a 1st Mate. He is not equal to Shanks. He’s hyped to be stronger than most other 1st Mates; So he’s YC1+

Alot of people got that implication from the vivre card which states:

"Comparable to Shanks, this man's(Beckman's) existence is feared throughout the new world..."

It's open to interpretation I guess, I personally think it's referring to his renown, sort of like Rayliegh who can't contend with TOP Teirs but his name certainly cares unbelievable weight.