One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Nie Li]

Enel didn't have Future Sight.

Yes, he did. And so did his subordinate, Satori, who was defeated by Luffy and Sanji.

 

[BlackTiger]

Yes, he did. And so did his subordinate, Satori, who was defeated by Luffy and Sanji.

They only had basic CoO. Again compare Katakuri with Akainu if you want to compare FS with logia intangibility. Not with fodder like Enel

 

[Pirate Queen]

Yes, he did. And so did his subordinate, Satori, who was defeated by Luffy and Sanji.

I do not think Enel had FS. Can you show us where that was shown?

My recollection is that he combined his Logia to enhance his matara(CoO) to tap into air wave frequencies and sense the intentions of everyone in skypeia. It was God level basic CoO. I do not think he ever predicted the future.

I could be wrong though and would not be surprised in the slightest if he had it now

 

[Nie Li]

I do not think Enel had FS. Can you show us where that was shown?

My recollection is that he combined his Logia to enhance his matara(CoO) to tap into air wave frequencies and sense the intentions of everyone in skypeia. It was God level basic CoO. I do not think he ever predicted the future.

I could be wrong though and would not be surprised in the slightest if he had it now

It wasn't explicitly named future sight, since everything was named Mantra, but I'm positive that it was.

Satori, when he first faced Sanji and Luffy, said out loud "Oh, so you can stretch your limbs" before Luffy first attacked him, which surprised him and made him notice he could see the future.

Enel had to close his eyes to focus and use CoO, but with how his mantra was hyped (as, indeed, empowered by his logia) as being above any other known mantra user, I can only think that he could also see the future.

Having to calm down and focus also fits the way Katakuri and Luffy use future sight currently.

 

[BlackTiger]

It wasn't explicitly named future sight, since everything was named Mantra, but I'm positive that it was.

Satori, when he first faced Sanji and Luffy, said out loud "Oh, so you can stretch your limbs" before Luffy first attacked him, which surprised him and made him notice he could see the future.

Enel had to close his eyes to focus and use CoO, but with how his mantra was hyped (as, indeed, empowered by his logia) as being above any other known mantra user, I can only think that he could also see the future.

Having to calm down and focus also fits the way Katakuri and Luffy use future sight currently.

You are reaching. Rayleigh confirmed that Mantra is just basic CoO.

Rayleigh explained about basic CoO and Luffy had flashback about Enel's Mantra. Mantra is just basic CoO. It's not FS.

Sandersonia predicted Luffy's next attack but Luffy referred Sandersonia ability as basic CoO. Not FS.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 16, 2022, Original Post Date: Dec 16, 2022 ---

@Lobo

Enel just read the next attack of Luffy. Each attack has a will according to Rayleigh

Spoiler

Enel cannot predict Luffy's attack here because Luffy attacked randomly. Luffy did not have any intent on his attacks. He just hit the wall and each deflected fists hit Enel. If Enel had Future Sight, he should have seen that coming. Enel was using Mantra 24/7 so there's no excuse how he failed to dodge those deflected hits.

Spoiler

As long as Luffy could control his attacks, Enel/Satori could predict Luffy's next attacks. Luffy hitting the wall with Luffy having no control of who his deflected fists would hit disturbed Enel's CoO because Enel cannot predict attacks that Luffy had no control of.

What Satori was using was basic CoO. With CoO he could predict Luffy's next attack which was stretching his arm. Because Luffy had intent of that attack. The attack's intent was to hit Satori.

 

[LaGOAT]

Current Zoro will down kizaru extreme diff

 

[kkck]

Basic CoO and future sight are fundamentally the same ability, the main difference is that the future sight version allows you to anticipate things from futher ahead. In katakuri's case we even saw him anticipating conversations.... There's no specific reason to think folk at skypeia were using future sight rather than basic haki.

 

[Nie Li]

Basic CoO and future sight are fundamentally the same ability, the main difference is that the future sight version allows you to anticipate things from futher ahead. In katakuri's case we even saw him anticipating conversations.... There's no specific reason to think folk at skypeia were using future sight rather than basic haki.

Then it's all "future sight" with a difference in seconds, which is neat and all, but counterable with the exact same methods.

As far as I'm concerned Satori seeing Gomu gomu no pistol in detail in the future and commenting about it before Luffy attacked isn't a any ifferent from Katakuri anticipating a sentence or two. What sets Katakuri apart from Satori as a fighter is that his overall stats are obviously in a whole other league and he also has very strong CoA, and his reaction speed, which should be considered a different stat from CoO itself, is on a different tier as well. It's someone on his level having that kind of CoO that makes it scary, unlike Satori, not simply the CoO by itself. It's also scarier knowing that Kaido can use it.

Some people in Wano use advanced armament haki as if it were the most natural thing in the world, so it's not a stretch to think some Shandians have a similar predisposition towards "advanced observation haki". They even have the "having their own naming conventions for the power" in common.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 16, 2022, Original Post Date: Dec 16, 2022 ---

Also, now that we're talking about Enel...

After recent chapters, I'm really looking forward to admiral-level Enel. The longer it takes for him to reappear in the story, the more broken he will be, and I'm not even mad about it.

 

[kkck]

Then it's all "future sight" with a difference in seconds, which is neat and all, but counterable with the exact same methods.

As far as I'm concerned Satori seeing Gomu gomu no pistol in detail in the future and commenting about it before Luffy attacked isn't a any ifferent from Katakuri anticipating a sentence or two. What sets Katakuri apart from Satori as a fighter is that his overall stats are obviously in a whole other league and he also has very strong CoA, and his reaction speed, which should be considered a different stat from CoO itself, is on a different tier as well. It's someone on his level having that kind of CoO that makes it scary, unlike Satori, not simply the CoO by itself. It's also scarier knowing that Kaido can use it.

Some people in Wano use advanced armament haki as if it were the most natural thing in the world, so it's not a stretch to think some Shandians have a similar predisposition towards "advanced observation haki". They even have the "having their own naming conventions for the power" in common.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 16, 2022, Original Post Date: Dec 16, 2022 ---

Also, now that we're talking about Enel...

After recent chapters, I'm really looking forward to admiral-level Enel. The longer it takes for him to reappear in the story, the more broken he will be, and I'm not even mad about it.

Welp, a difference in seconds that makes a gigantic difference in combat. Before the new world the only instances of futuresight would be rayleigh and aokiji... Outside of that anyone on screen having this degree of skill in observation haki/mantra is a pretty big sell. Absurd even. Nothing we see in skypeia actually evidences future sight over average ass haki.

 

[BlackTiger]

Then it's all "future sight" with a difference in seconds, which is neat and all, but counterable with the exact same methods.

As far as I'm concerned Satori seeing Gomu gomu no pistol in detail in the future and commenting about it before Luffy attacked isn't a any ifferent from Katakuri anticipating a sentence or two. What sets Katakuri apart from Satori as a fighter is that his overall stats are obviously in a whole other league and he also has very strong CoA, and his reaction speed, which should be considered a different stat from CoO itself, is on a different tier as well. It's someone on his level having that kind of CoO that makes it scary, unlike Satori, not simply the CoO by itself. It's also scarier knowing that Kaido can use it.

Some people in Wano use advanced armament haki as if it were the most natural thing in the world, so it's not a stretch to think some Shandians have a similar predisposition towards "advanced observation haki". They even have the "having their own naming conventions for the power" in common.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 16, 2022, Original Post Date: Dec 16, 2022 ---

Also, now that we're talking about Enel...

After recent chapters, I'm really looking forward to admiral-level Enel. The longer it takes for him to reappear in the story, the more broken he will be, and I'm not even mad about it.

Why are you ignoring my arguments about any attack has an intent stated by Rayleigh therefore Satori could predict which attack that Luffy would use (stretching his arm).

Luffy countered Mantra by punching the wall since deflected Luffy's fists cannot be controlled by Luffy toward who those deflected fists would land. So Enel cannot see the intents of those deflected hits.

FS should allow to see into the future the direction of Luffy's deflected fists would be to the user. Enel cannot do that. He cannot see into the future the direction of Luffy fists toward him

 

[Nie Li]

Welp, a difference in seconds that makes a gigantic difference in combat. Before the new world the only instances of futuresight would be rayleigh and aokiji... Outside of that anyone on screen having this degree of skill in observation haki/mantra is a pretty big sell. Absurd even. Nothing we see in skypeia actually evidences future sight over average ass haki.

We'll agree to disagree on shandians and birkans skill.

 

[XXGenesis]

Mantra is confirmed to be Haki. It’s not head cannon. It’s very cannon.

King Vs Zoro debate.. On Defense mode vs ACoC. I dare not argue with you good civilians. It’s all on Oda. We could debate that forever and everyone would be correct. I rather criticize Oda for doing a bad job there. I seriously doubt we’ll ever get a concrete answer.

 

[HereNThere]

Eh, I think Oda's intentions are to have basic CoO's predictions different from Future Sight. At least, going by his explanation in 894, it would seem that he views basic CoO and FS as two separate stages. There is just regular sensing of intentions and straight-up viewing of the future. I get the idea, but I can also see why some could view it as a splitting hairs level of difference. And while Future Sight may not be completely unbeatable, Oda has hyped it up in the story to be something that is attainable by the strongest of the strong and an exceedingly powerful asset to have. Oda's spending chapters glowing it up also makes me think it's supposed to be reserved for the strongest of characters. Right now, we've only got Luffy, Kaido, and Katakuri as it's confirmed users, so I think that idea holds up for now.

So I'd say that, at least back then, Enel and Satori were not using FS. When Enel comes back? I'd say he'd for sure be able to use Future Sight. Oda's already said that if he were a Pirate on the Grand Line, he'd have a bounty of 500 million, which is pretty given how early he was introduced.

 

[kkck]

Eh, I think Oda's intentions are to have basic CoO's predictions different from Future Sight. At least, going by his explanation in 894, it would seem that he views basic CoO and FS as two separate stages. There is just regular sensing of intentions and straight-up viewing of the future. I get the idea, but I can also see why some could view it as a splitting hairs level of difference. And while Future Sight may not be completely unbeatable, Oda has hyped it up in the story to be something that is attainable by the strongest of the strong and an exceedingly powerful asset to have. Oda's spending chapters glowing it up also makes me think it's supposed to be reserved for the strongest of characters. Right now, we've only got Luffy, Kaido, and Katakuri as it's confirmed users, so I think that idea holds up for now.

So I'd say that, at least back then, Enel and Satori were not using FS. When Enel comes back? I'd say he'd for sure be able to use Future Sight. Oda's already said that if he were a Pirate on the Grand Line, he'd have a bounty of 500 million, which is pretty given how early he was introduced.

Welp, it is the highest degree of observation haki we know of. It shouldn't be something that any average joe has. It's weird to imagine jackasses with barely a notion of haki to begin with from the early stages of the grand line saga having an ability whose weakest user so far is a YC1. Also, rayleigh is a confirmed user of it (seeing that he demonstrated it to luffy) and we should kinda just assume shanks has it.

 

[Fox666]

King Vs Zoro debate.. On Defense mode vs ACoC. I dare not argue with you good civilians. It’s all on Oda. We could debate that forever and everyone would be correct. I rather criticize Oda for doing a bad job there. I seriously doubt we’ll ever get a concrete answer.

Ugh

I hate how there's so much stuff in Wano, but important details like that are not properly explained

 

[JStackz26]

All I'll say, not to disrupt anyone's conversation... I don't write One Piece but may Sanji get Haoshoku Haki and all the levels Zoro and Luffy unlock, or at least Zoro unlocks. Or may they all 3 get different advanced versions of Haoshoku Haki.

Complete nonsense that Sanji searching for the all blue makes him unqualified. I and others have said it, White beard just wanted a family and a few others.
But again the All Blue is similar in the realm of presumed non existent just like the One Piece. And very possible both are One Piece World altering discoveries, given some people say All Blue involves the Destruction of the Red Line. This whole thing is kind of similar to the Luffy Bellamy stuff about Sky Island and Blackbeard whole talk about it. Based on the whole concept of One Piece, the idea of such a thing invalidating someone having Conqueror's Haki is a bit odd. I mean Zoro doesn't want to find One Piece. And of course there are other people seeking other treasures as well. And very likely Sanji's goal itself requires him being strong in the New World (in One Piece).

 

[Nie Li]

All I'll say, not to disrupt anyone's conversation... I don't write One Piece but may Sanji get Haoshoku Haki and all the levels Zoro and Luffy unlock, or at least Zoro unlocks. Or may they all 3 get different advanced versions of Haoshoku Haki.

Complete nonsense that Sanji searching for the all blue makes him unqualified. I and others have said it, White beard just wanted a family and a few others.
But again the All Blue is similar in the realm of presumed non existent just like the One Piece. And very possible both are One Piece World altering discoveries, given some people say All Blue involves the Destruction of the Red Line. This whole thing is kind of similar to the Luffy Bellamy stuff about Sky Island and Blackbeard whole talk about it. Based on the whole concept of One Piece, the idea of such a thing invalidating someone having Conqueror's Haki is a bit odd. I mean Zoro doesn't want to find One Piece. And of course there are other people seeking other treasures as well. And very likely Sanji's goal itself requires him being strong in the New World (in One Piece).

It's not impossible but Oda already activated all those super-powered-genes to make up for his lack of good haki (compared to current enemies) and he's keeping up just fine in his own way, so it becomes a little doubtful that he'll ever get it. Unless... there's a CoO version of haoshoku, with Luffy getting both and Zoro and Sanji getting one each, but so far it's very unlikely that's a thing or Kaido would have had it.

 

[Pirate Queen]

All I'll say, not to disrupt anyone's conversation... I don't write One Piece but may Sanji get Haoshoku Haki and all the levels Zoro and Luffy unlock, or at least Zoro unlocks. Or may they all 3 get different advanced versions of Haoshoku Haki.

Complete nonsense that Sanji searching for the all blue makes him unqualified. I and others have said it, White beard just wanted a family and a few others.
But again the All Blue is similar in the realm of presumed non existent just like the One Piece. And very possible both are One Piece World altering discoveries, given some people say All Blue involves the Destruction of the Red Line. This whole thing is kind of similar to the Luffy Bellamy stuff about Sky Island and Blackbeard whole talk about it. Based on the whole concept of One Piece, the idea of such a thing invalidating someone having Conqueror's Haki is a bit odd. I mean Zoro doesn't want to find One Piece. And of course there are other people seeking other treasures as well. And very likely Sanji's goal itself requires him being strong in the New World (in One Piece).

Sanji being equivalent to Zoro without CoC is even more impressive in my opinion.

I do not thinkbSanji will get CoC, especially if Yamato does end up joining the crew.
4 CoC users would be a bit much

 

[JamJar12]

All I'll say, not to disrupt anyone's conversation... I don't write One Piece but may Sanji get Haoshoku Haki and all the levels Zoro and Luffy unlock, or at least Zoro unlocks. Or may they all 3 get different advanced versions of Haoshoku Haki.

Complete nonsense that Sanji searching for the all blue makes him unqualified. I and others have said it, White beard just wanted a family and a few others.
But again the All Blue is similar in the realm of presumed non existent just like the One Piece. And very possible both are One Piece World altering discoveries, given some people say All Blue involves the Destruction of the Red Line. This whole thing is kind of similar to the Luffy Bellamy stuff about Sky Island and Blackbeard whole talk about it. Based on the whole concept of One Piece, the idea of such a thing invalidating someone having Conqueror's Haki is a bit odd. I mean Zoro doesn't want to find One Piece. And of course there are other people seeking other treasures as well. And very likely Sanji's goal itself requires him being strong in the New World (in One Piece).

I think the biggest head scratcher is Trafalgar Law not having Haoshoku. I understand Oda is trying to do something with him and Kidd having facets of Luffys special features but it just looks silly when in context of the story.

 

[HereNThere]

Sanji may indeed get CoC. It's certainly possible. I hope he does, personally. I'm also aware that he may not get it and that's fine too as he has his own thing going on that seems to be working just as well.

In terms of his general haki abilities, I think they are fine. Personally, given the fact that he confirmed he strengthened his haki and he trained with the Samurai, I feel he has to know the flowing variation. It'd be weird if he didn't pick it up as well during Wano.

But, on the off chance he didn't, he's likely in the mastery "limbo" that Kidd resides in where they have no advance level feats, but we can assume their basics are high level due to their opponents and strength. Kidd wouldn't have stood a chance against Big Mom had his haki not been up to snuff to defend against her own armament infused attacks. Sanji's kicks were pre power up strong enough to inflict damage, to the point where Queen felt he had to use hardening to defend and admitted Sanji's kicks were strong.

Sanji's haki isn't focused on and he doesn't have the variations, as far as we know, but as it stands, I'd say he can be considered high level with what he has.