One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

goldb

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Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

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  • We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

  1. Shanks v Mihawk
  2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
  3. Zoro > Luffy
  4. Zoro v Sanji
  5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
  6. Mihawk's rank within the story
  7. Law having CoC currently.
  8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

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grey matter

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I'll post my strongest list here as well, since it's beginning of the year. Let me know what you guys think.
Read some of the explanations at the bottom as well, might address some common disagreements.

A major change since I lasted posted here would be that I no longer consider admirals and Yonkos separate tiers, my current view is that they belong to same tier even if Yonkos on "average" are stronger than admirals. Even tho the yonkos have been hyped too much by Oda (cause pirate manga duh), the narrative supports admirals being a force capable of fighting them to a standstill evenly.
I just consider all of them "top tier" now, and would distinguish between the relatively small differences there through sub groups within that tier. But that doesn't imply a huge difference, the highest in that tier (say Roger) would need at least a mid diff to defeat the lowest in that tier (say Fujitora).

I also ignore matchups and consider "overall" power level (meaning some characters below another may defeat them due to matchup issues).

Anyway, here goes my list, with characters on/above yonko commander level....................


God tier:

Imu (??)


Rocks
Roger/prime Whitebeard
Garp

old Whitebeard (in meds)
Kaido
Mihawk
Shanks/prime Rayleigh
prime Sengoku (??)
Akainu
Dragon (??)

Blackbeard
Luffy
Oden
Aokiji
Kizaru
Big Mom
Gorosei (??)
Shiliew (??)
Ben Beckman (??)

Scopper (??)
Kong (??)
old Garp
old Rayleigh
old Sengoku
Greenbull
Fujitora
old Whitebeard (off meds, i.e in Marineford)

Edward Weevil (??)
Sabo
Law
Zoro
Marco
Yamato
Prime Moria (??)
Magellan
Kid

King
Katakuri
Lucky Roo (??)
Doflamingo
Boa Hancock
Sanji
Ace
Vista
Crocodile (??)

Yassop (??)
Cat/Dog (sulong)
Jozu
Rob Lucci
Killer
Jinbe
Queen
Kyoshiro

Enel (??)
Thatch
Shutenmaru
Jack/Cracker
Kaku
Cat/Dog (base)
Izo
CP0 boss



?? = Expectation/Headcanon/Prediction
What this means is that everyone with ?? in brackets in the list is based on my prediction regarding what narrative makes sense given their portrayal. Some explanations:
- Imu being God tier, should be self explanatory given his hype. He's probably strongest in the verse over last 800 years
- Dragon. He's probably the strongest character alive given his hype and bloodline. His father was PK tier and his son will be strongest EoS, so narratively he should be up there somewhere
- Gorosei: based on expectation that they were the strongest CD from 800 years ago who overthrew the ancient kingdom, has several battle scars. One of them likely carries 1st Kitetsu blade, and everyone with a supreme grade blade so far were at least Yonko level (Roger/WB/Mihawk).
- Shiliew: He was Magellan's equal (who was portrayed an unstoppable monster in ID having all prisoners combined run from him) and above yami BB without a DF. He now has a DF and my expectation is that he has awakened it to some broken level
- Ben Beckman: hyped as one of the special RHM close to his captain. Sun/Moon portrayal. Hyped as being comparable to Shanks in databooks.
- Scopper: expectation of being 3rd strongest Roger Pirate
- Kong: based on headcanon/expectation based on him being former Fleet Admiral and being still active
- Edward Weevil: Portrayal of being comparable to "young Whitebeard" must mean something. Plus none of the WBP so far were able to stop him.
- Prime Moria: based on implication of him giving Kaido a decent fight
- Lucky Roo/Yassop: Shanks crew is hyped for it's crew's individual strength. So the 2nd and 3rd strongest commanders should be a level
- Crocodile: expectation of post retcon Crocodile
- Enel: dude's DF is that broken. Plus country level observation haki, range etc. Can honestly make a case for him being higher



Explanation for some positions I think might cause most disagreements.

1. Akainu being so far above Marineford Whitebeard (i.e WB off meds)
Yes, MF Whitebeard extreme diff'd Akainu in round 2. But that was after he saw Ace die by Akainu's hand, so my opinion is that what we saw then was momentarily Whitebeard getting PoF/adrenaline-rush becoming his healthy old self (i.e when he's in meds) that was called WSM/WSP.
We saw earlier what happens when WB vs Akainu happened, Akainu outlasted Whitebeard and won that round without even really getting injured.

2. Big gap between old WB (in meds) and old Garp/Rayleigh/Sengoku
This is because old age only nerfs physical stats and stamina. Whitebeard has a paramecia DF which is unaffected by old age. Garp and Rayleigh are pure stats with no DF, Sengoku is a zoan which relies on physical stats.
Again, I acknowledge I might be wrong, we will have to wait and see how Garp would fare now that he might get to fight against BB

3. Doflamingo's position
This is due to the recent Shichibukai wank/retcon from Oda + some realizations I had regarding Doffy vs Luffy.
Doffy had the portrayal of being 2nd strongest amongst OG 7 Shichbukai. Plus, what Luffy fought was a very nerfed version of Doffy and even then Doffy (awakened) vs G4 Luffy was an even match until the finisher. This is something many (including myself in the past) miss or don't account for, G4 Luffy vs Doffy round 2 lasted for like 20-30 minutes, with the colosseum announcer guy claiming it to be an even fight.
To see how much gamam knife nerfed Doffy, you can see his reactions to G2 Luffy. Doffy easily dodged everything from G2 Luffy pre nerfed, got hit by G2 Luffy frequently post nerf.

4. Ace's position
His position is based on scaling up from his fight against Jinbe. Plus using info from the Ace novel as well.
Ace being introduced before haki was properly developed, has lead to him being downplayed by the community in general IMO.
Sidenote: Thatch's position is because he was stronger than Ace, and by extension Jinbe, in the beginning of Ace's stay in WB's ship.



My old list from early last year, showing how my rankings/perspective have changed over the year:

I think we've seen enough to make the post Wano list now, assuming Luffy will win with extreme diff or something against Kaido.

Here is my list, with characters on and above Yonko commander level. Let me know what you guys think.
(Not including characters purely based on hype, like Imu or Kong.)

Roger / Whitebeard (prime)
Garp (prime)

Whitebeard (old: in meds)
Kaido/ BigMom (soul buffed)
BigMom/ Shanks/ Sengoku (prime)/ Mihawk/ Shiki (prime)
Rayleigh (prime)
Oden
Whitebeard (old: off meds for days)
Akainu
Blackbeard

Luffy
Aokiji
Scopper
Rayleigh (old)/Kizaru
Fujitora/Greenbull

Law
Kid
Marco
Zoro
Yamato

King
Katakuri
Ace
Vista
Sanji

Cat/Dog (sulong)
Jozu
Killer
Queen
Kyoshiro

Thatch
Doflamingo
Shutenmaru
Jinbe/Jack/Cracker
Cat/Dog (base)


Imu: Yonko +
Rocks: Yonko+
Gorosei: Yonko
Dragon: Yonko
Kong: Yonko
Ben Beckman: admiral
Sabo: YC1+
Weevil: YC1+
Smoothie: YC2
Enel: YC3


Explanation for some positions I think might cause most disagreements.

1. Akainu being Yonko tier, while Aokiji not
I think they were great match for each other. Their DF cancelled out each other, while their haki are even.
But, Akainu's ceiling is higher than Aokiji's. Because Akainu's attack power is probably the highest in the verse. Point being, an attack landing from Akainu is more deadly than which lands from Aokiji.
Plus, Oda hyping up him by saying he would've become PK in an year or two. etc
But if someone disagrees, pointing to Akainu extreme diffing Aokiji, I can understand that as well.


2. Luffy not in Yonko tier
Luffy vs Kaido started with Kaido more tired than Luffy. If fight starts with both at full power, Kaido will high diff end of Wano Luffy IMO
Luffy's will as a conqueror has reached Yonko level, but not in other stats.
Again, if you think Luffy is Yonko tier, I see where you're coming from and can respect that as well.


3. Doflamingo's position
He can strike above his level and can be beaten by characters below his level as well. Due to his DF.
His DF mastery and stats are lopsided. His DF mastery is like admiral tier, while stats being on upper Tobiroppo/Yonko-executive tier.
I just averaged it out and put him in YC3 tier.


4. Ace's position
His position is based on scaling up from his fight against Jinbe. Plus using info from the Ace novel as well.
Ace being introduced before haki was properly developed, has lead to him being downplayed by the community in general IMO.
Sidenote: Thatch's position is because he was stronger than Ace, and by extension Jinbe, in the beginning of Ace's stay in WB's ship.

Edit: Forgot to add Rocks and Weevil earlier, added them now
 

Crimson Ice

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Zoro wanked as expected, he has no business being above characters like Garp/Rayleigh yet (he's moreso comparable to Sabo/Law).

Few more random rankings like that of Smoker, Pizarro etc

But otherwise pretty good list really

Aint no way they snuk in Enel.
 

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Aint no way they snuk in Enel.
I honestly think there is a case to be made for Enel being in top 50 tho, but yeah maybe they went a bit far lol.

Enel one shotted everyone in the arc like it was nobody's business. I wouldn't overanalyize feats cause Crocodile lost to a weaker Luffy and Luffy wasn’t immune to him.

Oda back then said he would by 500 million, which was close to Ace's bounty. I take it as portrayal that he was commander level.
 

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Garp/Rayleigh yet (he's moreso comparable to Sabo/Law).
I personally have the old men, Zoro, Law and Kidd and Yamato and Sabo all in the same tier (low top tier)

I think Law may be the stronger than Zoro in group fights but In a 1v1 I think Zoro could take him pretty comfortably. Law is bad in 1v1s.
 

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I personally have the old men, Zoro, Law and Kidd and Yamato and Sabo all in the same tier (low top tier)

Nah, those old dudes still demand respect from yonko/admirals.

Old Rayleigh can give Kizaru an extreme diff and sent BB running (even tho BB would've won he wouldn't have listened unless he thought it was too close for comfort).

You think current Zoro or Law can give Kizaru an extreme diff?

I think Law may be the stronger than Zoro in group fights but In a 1v1 I think Zoro could take him pretty comfortably. Law is bad in 1v1s.

Generally speaking, Zoro is better in 1v1 and Law in team fights, yes.
But it's closer than you're making it out to be, and comes down to matchups really.

Law is just now doing a 1v1 against BB and seems to be holding his own, so he isn't "bad" in 1v1s
 

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I personally have the old men, Zoro, Law and Kidd and Yamato and Sabo all in the same tier (low top tier)

I think Law may be the stronger than Zoro in group fights but In a 1v1 I think Zoro could take him pretty comfortably. Law is bad in 1v1s.
 

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I honestly think there is a case to be made for Enel being in top 50 tho, but yeah maybe they went a bit far lol.

Enel one shotted everyone in the arc like it was nobody's business. I wouldn't overanalyize feats cause Crocodile lost to a weaker Luffy and Luffy wasn’t immune to him.

Oda back then said he would by 500 million, which was close to Ace's bounty. I take it as portrayal that he was commander level.
I see absolutely no case. Enel only has one haki with subpar physical stats. Speaking of Ace, he also went up against someone his fruit didn't work against but he actually won. And even if you wanted to sneak him there, they put his above Queen and Killer.
 

LadyVados

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Nah, those old dudes still demand respect from yonko/admirals.

Old Rayleigh can give Kizaru an extreme diff and sent BB running (even tho BB would've won he wouldn't have listened unless he thought it was too close for comfort).

You think current Zoro or Law can give Kizaru an extreme diff?




Generally speaking, Zoro is better in 1v1 and Law in team fights, yes.
But it's closer than you're making it out to be, and comes down to matchups really.

Law is just now doing a 1v1 against BB and seems to be holding his own, so he isn't "bad" in 1v1s
I think Zoro would probably beat Kizaru if he faces him now due to mid-fight growth but even if we assume his power level is frozen I think he has the endurance, AP and willpower to push him to extreme. In the infamous words of Kaido “Haki is supreme”. As you yourself said Law is giving BB a good fight. BB is above Kizaru IMO. I don’t think people in this tier are that much weaker than Top Tiers.


That won’t work on someone with Zoro’s level of Haki.


I see absolutely no case. Enel only has one haki with subpar physical stats. Speaking of Ace, he also went up against someone his fruit didn't work against but he actually won. And even if you wanted to sneak him there, they put his above Queen and Killer.
I think Enel’s rating is based on the assumption he’s gotten stronger during the Timeskip. He’s actually rated the lowest of all of Luffy’s Pre-TS opponents.
 

XXGenesis

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Top w/e honestly, has not changed in OP in the last few years…it’s the same characters, same discussion, unfortunately.

what really interest me and I find fun but gets toxic really really quick..is the nuisances between Kidd/Law/Zoro

Or

Rayleigh/Garp/Sengoku vs Any YC1+.

I feel like the rankings we have blurr into each other so much…it’s what makes Power scailing fun and annoying for OP..
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

I honestly think there is a case to be made for Enel being in top 50 tho, but yeah maybe they went a bit far lol.

Enel one shotted everyone in the arc like it was nobody's business. I wouldn't overanalyize feats cause Crocodile lost to a weaker Luffy and Luffy wasn’t immune to him.

Oda back then said he would by 500 million, which was close to Ace's bounty. I take it as portrayal that he was commander level.
The thing is…He was defeated by Luffy who didn’t know any gears…..

His physical prowess is outdone by many…

Not to say he can’t get a power up if he ever comes back…But he shouldn’t be able to defeat NW pirates like Cavendish
 

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I don't think it's incorrect. Early on in that very same chapter where the explanation was given, Hyogoro thinks to himself about how Luffy was basically already capable of using AdCoC/CoC infusion and how it was more advance than any form of Ryou/Emission he could ever teach Luffy, implying that the two aren't intrinsically linked.

Then, in chapter 1010, Oda juxtaposed Hyogoro's statement about internal destruction with Luffy's realization that he could infuse CoC into one's attacks. SO I'm pretty sure the intention was to imply that Internal Destruction = AdCoC.
There is no specific reason to think internal damage isn't armor haki. Chapter 1010 simply highlighted that internal damage was not enough to go toe to toe with a yonko and that kaido was using conqueror haki to clad his body. The implication that luffy, someone whom oda has stated leans towards conqueror haki and has shown mastery of all known forms of armor haki and most known forms of observation haki, was using cladding and he couldn't tell up until he figured out kaido was doing is beyond insane and absurd and indefensible. This isn't part 1 where luffy just used conqueror haki by accident. Even if it was the case it would simply be BS writing by oda.
 

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I see absolutely no case. Enel only has one haki with subpar physical stats. Speaking of Ace, he also went up against someone his fruit didn't work against but he actually won. And even if you wanted to sneak him there, they put his above Queen and Killer.
Yeah, I wouldn't put him above Queen/Killer lol.
But I say he can be in lower end of commander level, relative to Cracker/Jack.

Like I said before, I wouldn't overanalyze pre-TS feats. Mainly because Oda didn't plan far ahead, resulting in wack feats like commander level Crocodile losing to gearless Alabasta Luffy. For pre TS villains, IMO portrayal is more reliable.
The portrayal of Enel puts him alongside commanders IMO. 500 million meant a lot back in the days, because it was before the whole bounty inflation that Oda did later on. Enel one shotted everyone under the sun with sole exception of the dude with completely immunity, amongst the highest destruction feats till date, country level observation haki etc.

The thing is…He was defeated by Luffy who didn’t know any gears…..

His physical prowess is outdone by many…

Not to say he can’t get a power up if he ever comes back…But he shouldn’t be able to defeat NW pirates like Cavendish

And Crocodile lost to a weaker Luffy without gears. To make matters worse, Crocodile's attacks actually WORKED on Luffy while Luffy had full immunity to Enel.

Enel basically had to improvise and purely rely on CQC against Luffy and he still won in round 1.

Like I said, I wouldn't overanalyze feats of pre TS.
Oda back then didn't plan so far ahead, so feats are all wack when looked though the lens of current (i.e post TS) norms.

For pre TS villains, I use portrayal more than feats. 500 million, in pre TS context before bounty inflation, indicates a commander level for sure. Heck, Luffy only got it after everything he did in Dresrossa arc
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

I think Zoro would probably beat Kizaru if he faces him now due to mid-fight growth but even if we assume his power level is frozen I think he has the endurance, AP and willpower to push him to extreme. In the infamous words of Kaido “Haki is supreme”. As you yourself said Law is giving BB a good fight. BB is above Kizaru IMO. I don’t think people in this tier are that much weaker than Top Tiers.
Law will get mid-high diff'd by BB, same will be the case against Kizaru. I have BB a bit higher than Kizaru, but same tier.
Law put up a seemingly even fight against BB..........until BB bought out yami powers. There is a reason Oda immediately switched away the moment BB got serious and started using yami you know.

Old Rayleigh will get extreme diff'd by Kizaru.

There is a shot we will get Zoro vs Kizaru. If that happens, we will see. Maybe you're right, but I wouldn't bet on it
--- Double Post Merged, ---

what really interest me and I find fun but gets toxic really really quick..is the nuisances between Kidd/Law/Zoro
My take on it.

"Overall"
Law > Zoro > Kid

But in 1v1 matchups.
- Zoro beats Law, because Zoro has one of the best CQC/reflex and definitely much better haki.
- Kid beats Zoro, because he wouldn't even need awakening to screw with Zoro's swordsmanship
- Law beats Kid. Kid is quite tanky and is a physical brute, but lacks mobility/CQC. Law's shenanigans are best against Kid cause he ignores durability, plus Kid's haki isn't all that highlighted

Rayleigh/Garp/Sengoku vs Any YC1+.
IMO they better than all YC1+

Old Rayleigh can give Kizaru extreme diff, as well as BB extreme diff (implied)

I don't think any YC1+ is giving yonko/admirals an extreme diff
 

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I see absolutely no case. Enel only has one haki with subpar physical stats. Speaking of Ace, he also went up against someone his fruit didn't work against but he actually won. And even if you wanted to sneak him there, they put his above Queen and Killer.
Ace is damn near impossible to power scale. I have him much higher than most people put him out of sheer portrayal, near-equivalence to pre-TS Blackbeard, and how he was later retconned when Oda changed up his own scaling.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

 

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Ace is damn near impossible to power scale. I have him much higher than most people put him out of sheer portrayal, near-equivalence to pre-TS Blackbeard, and how he was later retconned when Oda changed up his own scaling.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

I trust I know you enough to know Buggy there is an easter egg.
 

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Is this confirmation Luffy and Zoro will be the Top 2 All-time by EOS ?

 

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I trust I know you enough to know Buggy there is an easter egg.
The orchestrator of the unprecedented prison break of Impel Down, the childhood rival of emperor Shanks, apprentice of the great pirate king Roger, the man who laughs off the swings of the strongest swordsman in the world, Mihawk, feared the world over for his impossible, infinite charisma, and his seemingly endless army of diehard followers, that Buggy? He is placed immaculately and I am stone-faced sincere. Mostly.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Is this confirmation Luffy and Zoro will be the Top 2 All-time by EOS ?

No.
 

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If Enel finds his way back into the story you can trust he will be retconned to commander level. There is no way Oda is wasting a character with the Goro Goro no mi post time skip on fodder. Enel will likely end up having aCoO, at the very least CoA hardening, and improved physical stats.
 

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So I'm trying something new with this breakdown. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. Personally trying to get away from the YC tiering system.

Roger
Whitebeard
Blackbeard
Kaido
Big Mom
Shanks/Mihawk
Luffy
Akainu
Aokiji
Kizaru
Fujitora
Green Bull
Garp
Sengoku
Oden
Ryuma
Tsuru~
Rayleigh~
Beckmann~

Individuals who have shown themselves to be or have been said to be comparable to the strongest of the strong on the seas. Your Yonkou, your Admirals, and your general Legends all populate this tier.

~Rayleigh
~Tsuru
~Beckmann
Kidd/Law
Yamato
Zoro
Lucci~
Weevil~

Folks who are basically a hop and a skip away from being at the Pinnacle, but still need a bit of growth/motivation. In the right circumstances, they can scrap with those in the tier above, but will not win a direct 1v1.


~Lucci
~Weevil
Sanji
Killer
Jinbe
Crocodile
Hancock
Kuma
Doflamingo
Jozu
Vista
Katakuri
King
Queen
Smoothie
Jack
Cracker
Uroge
X Drake~
Hawkins~

The most diverse tier, imo. This is where your Commanders, most Shichibukai (post Wano Patch), and various other notable or infamous pirates lie. Maybe some are already contenders, maybe some have the potential to be contenders, but for the most part, this is where most will max out due to various reasons. While there are certainly levels to this tier, I prefer leaving it a bit more open to shifts and changes rather than trying to force some of them into the whole YC1-YC4 when things are more likely on a shifting scale with some of them.

~X Drake
~Hawkins
Capone Bege
Jewelry Bonney
Franky
Robin
Brook
Perospero
Compote
Oven
Daifuku
Amande
Flying 6 minus 1
Nami
Chopper
Usopp

Your basic New World pirate. Similar to the Top Officers, this is rather diverse. You've got some who are decently strong and some who are pretty weak in the grand scheme. But, they can usually stand up to most of the others in their own tier, if not beat them comfortably in some cases.
 

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九千以上だ! / Kyuusen Ijou Da! / It's Over 9000!
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So I'm trying something new with this breakdown. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. Personally trying to get away from the YC tiering system.

Roger
Whitebeard
Blackbeard
Kaido
Big Mom
Shanks/Mihawk
Luffy
Akainu
Aokiji
Kizaru
Fujitora
Green Bull
Garp
Sengoku
Oden
Ryuma
Tsuru~
Rayleigh~
Beckmann~

Individuals who have shown themselves to be or have been said to be comparable to the strongest of the strong on the seas. Your Yonkou, your Admirals, and your general Legends all populate this tier.

~Rayleigh
~Tsuru
~Beckmann
Kidd/Law
Yamato
Zoro
Lucci~
Weevil~

Folks who are basically a hop and a skip away from being at the Pinnacle, but still need a bit of growth/motivation. In the right circumstances, they can scrap with those in the tier above, but will not win a direct 1v1.


~Lucci
~Weevil
Sanji
Killer
Jinbe
Crocodile
Hancock
Kuma
Doflamingo
Jozu
Vista
Katakuri
King
Queen
Smoothie
Jack
Cracker
Uroge
X Drake~
Hawkins~

The most diverse tier, imo. This is where your Commanders, most Shichibukai (post Wano Patch), and various other notable or infamous pirates lie. Maybe some are already contenders, maybe some have the potential to be contenders, but for the most part, this is where most will max out due to various reasons. While there are certainly levels to this tier, I prefer leaving it a bit more open to shifts and changes rather than trying to force some of them into the whole YC1-YC4 when things are more likely on a shifting scale with some of them.

~X Drake
~Hawkins
Capone Bege
Jewelry Bonney
Franky
Robin
Brook
Perospero
Compote
Oven
Daifuku
Amande
Flying 6 minus 1
Nami
Chopper
Usopp

Your basic New World pirate. Similar to the Top Officers, this is rather diverse. You've got some who are decently strong and some who are pretty weak in the grand scheme. But, they can usually stand up to most of the others in their own tier, if not beat them comfortably in some cases.
Love it. Why are you ranking Tsuru so high? Is it her relation to Gary and sengoku?
 
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