One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

goldb

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Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

  • For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
  • Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
  • Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
  • We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

  1. Shanks v Mihawk
  2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
  3. Zoro > Luffy
  4. Zoro v Sanji
  5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
  6. Mihawk's rank within the story
  7. Law having CoC currently.
  8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

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Pirate Queen

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The writing of the fight (and some others in Onigashima) in general was plainly no-IQ. Just little flexes to show what he can do, a couple of flashy panels and an epic panel of, in this case, Zoro winning.
While I agree, Zoro showed impressive ingenuity with using ACOC to separate from King at a Critical point in their battle, with no training, AND figured out King's exploit relatively quickly.
 

Nie Li

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What's to blame is Oda wanting to spend only ~2 chapters in the actual fight. He crammed too much into them, he dedicated the minimum panels to show and explain King's powers and show Zoro's "evolution", and the result feels like an underwhelming speedrun. The feats and strengths implied (and showed), however, are still there, despite it being a ****** fight.
 

I Am Atomic

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I don't remember it being said he used any kind of explosive device? Did I actually miss that?

The most obvious explanation to me was just him flexing his fire powers a bit harder.
That's what I thought. King had all sorts of hidden weapons; spikes/knives in his gloves/boots, that weird katana switch and explosive device inside his outfit (only explodes when triggered).

Never thought blowing himself up was an Lunarian ability. It's just that he can withstand the explosion due to being a lunarian.
 

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While I agree, Zoro showed impressive ingenuity with using ACOC to separate from King at a Critical point in their battle, with no training, AND figured out King's exploit relatively quickly.
True that. Although it was kind of forced how Zoro was all "I need to figure out his race to figure out how to beat him", as if other races had obvious weaknesses to exploit. Zoro's intelligence in that fight was just a narrative method for Oda to introduce lunarians (and hype Seraphims).
 

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Wouldn't he have to penetrate Kaido's skin?

I assume he can beat anyone in a arm wrestling match

But I think he's not more durable, and someone fast like Kaido can one-shot him
Kinda? Kaido was not literally invulnerable, in the end causing damage to him was ultimately an issue of either shenanigans or hitting him hard enough. Same as anyone else.
 

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If King had the ability to use mountain level explosions and only used it once, his battle iq is even lower than previously thought
We have seen Zoro using mountain-level attacks way back in Dressrosa

I'm sure the Flying Six and Calamities all could do stuff in that scale

What happens in a story when dozens of people capable of destroying a mountain are fighting inside of a castle? Apparently not the level of damage you would expect 🤷‍♂️
 

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King vs Zolo fight was great but not what we I expected from a Yonko Commander, especially the right hand man of Kaido.
It was way too short, the Kaku fight was longer. I wasn't expecting an hour long fight but at least longer than it actually was.
We barely saw King's abilities.
I think it is a Lunarian trick to be able to blow themselves up, I don't think it was an explosion device. Even Zolo mentioned "he blew himself up"
The explosion was huge but not Mountain size and there is NO indication of King not being able to use it again, just because he didn't use it more than once, doesn't necessarily mean he couldn't use it. Who knows.

Unfortunately the whole Onigashima battles to include the rooftop were "contained" in reality I was expecting to see Luffy and Kaido destroy the whole skull castle and move on to Wano mainland. We only saw rubble coming down from the roof from the few times Kaido hit the ground with his club.
Which I found odd, why is there ground and rock and cliffs on top of the skull dome? Whatever another one of Oda's unexplainable mysterious.

But hey Oda wanted to maintain the suspense of Kaido possibly dropping Onigashima on the Flower Capital. Wack. There ALWAYS has to be a suspense that pushes the climax. Alabasta: a time bomb, Skypiea: a Lightning Bomb, ENies Lobby: Buster Call, Thriller Bark: the sun, Fishman Island: Noah falling down, PH: "Toxic" gas, Dressrosa: Bird cage, WCI: Big Mom and her fleet, Wano: Onigashima falling down or exploding.
 

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King vs Zolo fight was great but not what we I expected from a Yonko Commander, especially the right hand man of Kaido.
It was way too short, the Kaku fight was longer. I wasn't expecting an hour long fight but at least longer than it actually was.
We barely saw King's abilities.
Yonko commanders have been hyped since Marineford arc, especially the 1st commanders

Luffy vs Katakuri blew everyone minds

Zoro vs King or Sanji vs Queen were super generic Straw Hat fights, not very different from what we got in Fish-man Island arc
 

Demonspeed

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Fire is the only reason why I think Katakuri would probably lose to King.
 

HereNThere

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Fire is the only reason why I think Katakuri would probably lose to King.
I mean, Katakuri has a technique called Burning Mochi that has him producing his own fire randomly. I think he'd be fine with the flames.

Personally, I lean towards Katakuri for this comparison. Narratively, he seems to have more going for him. CoC, Future Sight, the fact that he was Luffy's previous opponent, his likely being the next Captain of the Big Mom Pirates, etc. Also, I'm pretty sure Oda slid in a hint that he had AdCoC.
 

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Fire is the only reason why I think Katakuri would probably lose to King.
I feel like if fire was the key to beating Katakuri, more emphasis would have been put on Luffy using his fire based attacks and there just wasn't

A panel of Katakuri addressing Luffy's Red Hawk and why he needed to avoid it would have worked as well
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

I mean, Katakuri has a technique called Burning Mochi that has him producing his own fire randomly. I think he'd be fine with the flames.

Personally, I lean towards Katakuri for this comparison. Narratively, he seems to have more going for him. CoC, Future Sight, the fact that he was Luffy's previous opponent, his likely being the next Captain of the Big Mom Pirates, etc. Also, I'm pretty sure Oda slid in a hint that he had AdCoC.
Outside of offensive power, Katakuri wins in almost every conceivable category: CoC, CoA, Block Mochi, CoO, Future Sight, Versitility, Awakened DF, Battle IQ, Endurance. Whereas King just has Higher Offense and durability(that can easily be exploited)

Even were hax is concerned, FS seems better than Lunarian Defense because it is not so easy to exploit against someone who rwgularly turns off flame mode for no reason. King did not need to turn off his flame mode during his last attack with Zoro. He was just flying in place while his magma dragon did the moving, he didn't need to be in his speed mode. Unless of course he couldn't use his Flame on mode while using magma dragon... which seems like nonsense.

King would have to keep his Flame on during the length of the battle, but likewise Katakuri can just use FS to dodge and Awakening to keep King at a distance
 

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Why would fire make a difference against Katakuri?

It's not like Luffy needed to find a weakness similar to how he used water against Crocodile. Luffy could hurt Katakuri with Haki. The problem is that Katakuri was using future sight to avoid the attacks.


I think Katakuri would win against King.

The most important thing is how Katakuri would handle King's speed and defense.

Because of future sight, Katakuri should be capable of dodge King charging towards him.

If Zoro could figure out how King's defense works, Katakuri should be able to. King was able to see Gear 4 before Luffy used it, so he should be capable of "testing" King's defense in alternate realities, without wasting any real attack.
 

grey matter

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.........
I guess it's just pointless lol, nobody is gonna change their mind on this.

Anyway, we will get to know a bigger picture of how lunarian defence works in a few chapters, should make things less muddied.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

@grey matter I like your ranking scale but I'm not sure about prediction match ups. I don't see Rayleigh fighting WB or Garp fighting Shiki. I think it was Garp and Roger vs Rocks and for the rest well its unclear to decide.
Probably.
Just making up something lol, someone has to deal with that crew.

I mean, I can see maybe BM betraying Rocks since Kaido's flashback kinda hinted at her not liking Rocks. Maybe Kaido tagged along too.

But WB definitely wont' double cross anyone. Dude has honour written all over him. Shiki doesn't seem like that dude either.
 

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Yeah Oda hyped up the Yonko crew so much, especially with Jack being one of the first Yonko Commanders of an opposing villain crew introduced with the highest bounty shown at that time, $1 billion, handling both Mink Kings for 5 days, AND being brave or stupid enough to rescue Doffy from 4 battleships that had an Admiral, former Fleet Admiral, and various Vice Admirals.
Seeing all that made me believe that the Yonko Commanders were beasts of their own close to Admirals, also with Marco and Jozu fighting Admirals in Marineford.

WCI kept the hype up of the YC's, especially the Katakuri vs Luffy fight. Though I think it was overkill and unnecessary to include "hour long" fights when for the most part were off-screened. But that kept the hype up.

So when we arrived to Wano and were introduced to Queen and King, mocking Jack who was a beast by himself, the hype kept growing at least for these 2 unknown Yonko Commanders. I was believing that we were gonna see hour long fights at Onigashima for Queen, King, and Kaido fights.
That wasn't the case and in reality the fights were mediocre and didn't seem to push Sanji or Zolo to their extremes like it did Luffy.

@grey matter I don't think the Rocks pirates betrayed Xebec at God Valley, but I don't think they helped him either. After his defeat they were glad and disbanded. They probably respected his strength.
 

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I’ve yet to read a convincing non bias argument for either character as to who would win

When I think about how they are both YC1, with exceptional abilities. For me it’s 50/50, either of them could defeat the other.

It’s just too close to call without making up head cannon logic so I’m fine with however people rank them, as long as they are closely ranked.

I figured Lunarians durability would be mentioned soon, after those attacks. I hope we get a definitive answer.
 

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If we do an assessment based on what we've seen I'd give Katakuri the edge. I'd say if they were to fight 100 times (each time with the same starting conditions and no memory of each other), that Katakuri would take 55-60 of those fights and King would take 40-45 of those fights.

What gives Katakuri the edge for me is his fighting style & much wider skill set. King's only stands out to me with his Lunarian defense. His speed and attack power while great with his flames off are not stand out speed & attack power since we have plenty of other characters that can keep up with that (Zoro & Sanji, now Kaku/Lucci by proxy of Seraphims). Considering Katakuri kept up with Snakeman I think he has the speed required to not be overwhelmed by King's attack mode. However, I will admit that few people have displayed a defense as strong as his Lunarian flame on defense so King definitely shines here in a way that few other defenses do (only Jozu's diamond & BM/Kaido even come to mind as comparisons).

As a result the larger battle becomes a question of can Katakuri get past King's defenses? To me the simple answer is Yes. All a fighter needs is a single strategy to defeat King - fast & timed counter attacks to exploit his attack mode needing flames off. Counter attacking King while he is attacking is the best way to beat him.

Guess what Katakuri's battle speciality is? Fast & timed counter attacks. This is due to his of aCoO which is best utilized to exploit opponents openings while attacking. Katakuri to me has an advantage due to his fighting style being King's natural weakness.

So the fight becomes one of two things:
  • King stays in defense flame on mode entire fight. This likely results in draw out battle since I don't think King has enough attack/speed to take out Katakuri without leaving defense mode. Similarly I don't think Katakuri has enough attack power to take out King while still in defense mode. This fight would be long and give King an advantage since he is a Ancient Zoan & be bad for Katakuri since he would need to maintain aCoO in case of King switching modes on him out of no where.
  • King uses attack mode every once in a while to try and land large blows. This is where Katakuri will end up having advantage since he specializes in fast & timed counter attacks. I think King will end up losing more of these fights than win. Katakuri's future sight is not 100% so I'm sure King will still come out on top at least 20% of the time here.
 
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shailks

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he should be capable of "testing" King's defense in alternate realities, without wasting any real attack.
Perhaps i missed it but was Katakuri’s future sight implied to have doctor strange type versatility?
 

Nie Li

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If we do an assessment based on what we've seen I'd give Katakuri the edge. I'd say if they were to fight 100 times (each time with the same starting conditions and no memory of each other), that Katakuri would take 55-60 of those fights and King would take 40-45 of those fights.

What gives Katakuri the edge for me is his fighting style & much wider skill set. King's only stands out to me with his Lunarian defense. His speed and attack power while great with his flames off are not stand out speed & attack power since we have plenty of other characters that can keep up with that (Zoro & Sanji, now Kaku/Lucci by proxy of Seraphims). Considering Katakuri kept up with Snakeman I think he has the speed required to not be overwhelmed by King's attack mode. However, I will admit that few people have displayed a defense as strong as his Lunarian flame on defense so King definitely shines here in a way that few other defenses do (only Jozu's diamond & BM/Kaido even come to mind as comparisons).

As a result the larger battle becomes a question of can Katakuri get past King's defenses? To me the simple answer is Yes. All a fighter needs is a single strategy to defeat King - fast & timed counter attacks to exploit his attack mode needing flames off. Counter attacking King while he is attacking is the best way to beat him.

Guess what Katakuri's battle speciality is? Fast & timed counter attacks. This is due to his of aCoO which is best utilized to exploit opponents openings while attacking. Katakuri to me has an advantage due to his fighting style being King's natural weakness.

So the fight becomes one of two things:
  • King stays in defense flame on mode entire fight. This likely results in draw out battle since I don't think King has enough attack/speed to take out Katakuri without leaving defense mode. Similarly I don't think Katakuri has enough attack power to take out King while still in defense mode. This fight would be long and give King an advantage since he is a Ancient Zoan & be bad for Katakuri since he would need to maintain aCoO in case of King switching modes on him out of no where.
  • King uses attack mode every once in a while to try and land large blows. This is where Katakuri will end up having advantage since he specializes in fast & timed counter attacks. I think King will end up losing more of these fights than win. Katakuri's future sight is not 100% so I'm sure King will still come out on top at least 20% of the time here.
That's well thought out, but I've noticed two things that are usually left out.

I'm going to make my first and likely last post about why exactly I believe King would logically win most of the times.

I'll elaborate, but as an introduction: one is that aCoO can also be deactivated, and the other is that Katakuri isn't in the same physical tier as King. If they were exactly equals, Katakuri's skills would indeed hardcounter King, but as we know, people who's behind in physical power won't just win by "superior hax" in this series (more on that later). An example of that would be Kaido and Law, who has a lot more versatility and broken superpowers than the former, but lower attack power and durability.

I always see arguments about "what would it take to make King go speed mode", because he's objectively broken and invincible while in defense mode. However, almost the same is true for Katakuri: he's close to invincible using his advanced CoO, but that is also a mode of sorts that can be turned off, in his case unwillingly, either by being distracted or by the fight truly being too dragged out.
So what should be compared is, what happens when King goes out of his invincible mode, and what happens when Katakuri goes out of his invincible mode?

King - Speed Mode
- Still keeps all of his fire and magma-based arsenal, including huge AoE.
- Becomes fast enough to disappear from Zoro's eyesight without using his DF, which should make him arguably faster in hybrid form.
- Still has attack power strong enough to send Zoro flying despite blocking his swing. Can also parry normal CoC imbued attacks with his sword.
- Is still so physically resistant that he took minor damage from two direct CoC imbued hits (he was devastated by KoH so yes, he goes down with a single CoC imbued ougi, but we know how devastating every little CoC imbued punch is supposed to be). Once again, this was without using his ancient zoan DF.

Katakuri can use his CoO to keep up with his speed, but, strength-wise, Katakuri is below advancedCoA level of attacks and King (speed mode without his DF) can endure normal CoC-imbued attacks without going hybrid. This means Katakuri's normal attacks on speed mode King wouldn't be too different from Zoro vs Mr.1.

Katakuri does have the advantage of, by seeing the future, known the exact timing in which King's flames are going to disappear, but CoO can also be obscured through AoE (if King had enough IQ so I guess not).

King may be possibly turned into a big punching bag if he goes speed mode, but Katakuri's progress to taking him down would be more than slow and King wouldn't just sit still and let him launch every attack freely either, especially considering that, unlike with Luffy, Katakuri can't freely clash attacks with King throughout the fight. Why is that? Because King can clash attacks with CoC-imbuement and send post-rooftop Zoro flying backwards against a mountain after clashing attacks. Katakuri started overpowering WCI Luffy but Luffy managed to match his attacks one by one by the end of it, which makes Katakuri be possibly a full tier behind King in pure physical strength. It would take a long time for Katakuri to score a win by countering speed mode King.

Katakuri - aCoO turned off
- Keeps his big versatility.
- Keeps his speed (that was not on the level of Snakeman without his aCoO, meaning his attack speed is not an outlier stat).
- Loses his way of dodging attacks.

Just like he took some hits from Snakeman as soon as his aCoO waned, if he takes "some hits" from King, which is likely if King goes speed mode, it's GG immediately. As explained in the recent paragraph King's attack power is above Katakuri's own attack power, but even more so above Katakuri's durability, which gets bypassed by WCI's Luffy before he even had aCoA.

Both Haxes on
Even with both their haxes activated, King would spend zero effort taking attacks, like we see the Seraphims do now, while Katakuri would spend an active effort dodging big-ass AoE and quick-rate ranged attacks that can probably OHK him and that he can't just keep blocking like Luffy's. I won't argue that Katakuri simply slips up and fails a dodge, but there's still this to consider:
- aCoO requires full concentration. Said attacks, and the danger behind them (which Luffy's lacked) puts pressure, meaning Katakuri probably wouldn't be that chill as we saw then for long.
- Katakuri's "logia invulnerability" works by deforming his body to dodge by deforming his body around attacks. He can't do that around mountain-sized explosions and magma dragons.
Meaning King can take Katakuri down while both their haxes are active, but not the other way around.



This all is why I think King would beat Katakuri unless Oda had a narrative reason for the later to win against his odds.

And, just to be clear: I'm not saying Katakuri can never beat King, just that the scenario is a lot more unlikely to me, but this is the series in which Law and Kid beat Big Mom after all so what am I even doing giving it this much thought.

Peace out, I'll read counterarguments that aren't toxic (not referring to you @DeadlyBeast or anyone in particular, just saying) but if I haven't been convinced by the arguments I've read so far it's likely we'll end up agreeing to disagreeing.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Perhaps i missed it but was Katakuri’s future sight implied to have doctor strange type versatility?
If he sees the future, he can probably see King turning off his flames a taking a punch a few seconds in the future, that much is true.

However, with the difference of attack power, and the fact that King (and the Seraphims) acts as if he took damage for a few seconds every time he's hit with flames on, I wonder if Katakuri would really understand the trick and differenciate King's reactions for good, certainly not unless he hits him multiple times with his spear thrust or something. Oh, well, too late to comment on that in my rant now.
 

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Perhaps i missed it but was Katakuri’s future sight implied to have doctor strange type versatility?
Time Stone is a bit too much

But he did he Luffy turning into Gear 4 before it even happened

He did seemingly avoided attacking Gear 4 in the "hard rubber" areas like Doflamingo
 

Nie Li

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Time Stone is a bit too much

But he did he Luffy turning into Gear 4 before it even happened

He did seemingly avoided attacking Gear 4 in the "hard rubber" areas like Doflamingo
Satori did the same in Skypiea. In the end, most CoO users can see the future, Sanji can see the future, the difference is in the amount of seconds.
 
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