One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[HereNThere]

Satori did the same in Skypiea. In the end, most CoO users can see the future, Sanji can see the future, the difference is in the amount of seconds.

It'd really be disappointing if the difference between CoO and FS was just the amount of time to anticipate. Given that Oda went out of the way to have Rayleigh specify that it's only a handful of strong individuals were capable of FS, I think the differences between the two abilities are much greater than that and Oda was trying to get that across. Not unlike him having Kaido specifying that AdCoC was also unique to the strongest.

I think basic CoO just allows you to sense intentions, rather than allowing you to see the future and I think the biggest piece of evidence we have for that is Luffy vs Enel. Enel was doing just fine against Luffy until Luffy did his random attacks that negated Enel's ability to dodge or emptied his mind making it impossible for Enel to know how he'd defend himself. So characters like Satori, Sandersonia, WCI Sanji, and some others are able to get a decent idea of how you'll attack, but they aren't seeing the future.

On the flip side, when FS was introduced, we see that Katakuri was seeing things on an entirely different level of detail. To the point where Katakuri and, eventually, Luffy were foreseeing the very words spoken by their opponent or whoever was nearby. No one else had done that until they did. I'd also reckon that, in some of those instances, there wasn't all that much difference in the timespan compared to some of the basic CoO examples.

 

[Nie Li]

It'd really be disappointing if the difference between CoO and FS was just the amount of time to anticipate. Given that Oda went out of the way to have Rayleigh specify that it's only a handful of strong individuals were capable of FS, I think the differences between the two abilities are much greater than that and Oda was trying to get that across. Not unlike him having Kaido specifying that AdCoC was also unique to the strongest.

I think basic CoO just allows you to sense intentions, rather than allowing you to see the future and I think the biggest piece of evidence we have for that is Luffy vs Enel. Enel was doing just fine against Luffy until Luffy did his random attacks that negated Enel's ability to dodge or emptied his mind making it impossible for Enel to know how he'd defend himself. So characters like Satori, Sandersonia, WCI Sanji, and some others are able to get a decent idea of how you'll attack, but they aren't seeing the future.

On the flip side, when FS was introduced, we see that Katakuri was seeing things on an entirely different level of detail. To the point where Katakuri and, eventually, Luffy were foreseeing the very words spoken by their opponent or whoever was nearby. No one else had done that until they did. I'd also reckon that, in some of those instances, there wasn't all that much difference in the timespan compared to some of the basic CoO examples.

You're right about Enel's example. Even with his electricity-augmented mantra he was easily countered by "not thinking". However, do we know that would not counter Katakuri's CoO as well just as easily? (with the danger that, if Luffy just "turned off his mind" against Katakuri, he'd be sekewered easily and possibly instantly, because Katakuri is obviously much faster and stronger than Enel beyond his CoO). Is Katakuri's CoO really based on something entirely different or just an improvement over the same base power? Rayleigh's choice of words when he explained the ability suggest the later to me.

Satori knew Luffy specifically had "rubber" powers and could stretch moments before he demonstrated it and commented on it. That felt very close to reading around two to three seconds into the future. It's possible he only read Luffy's intentions and not his literal mind, but from his "intentions" he interpreted a glimpse of the future so clear that he knew about Luffy's DF without having seen it in action or even knowing what rubber is.

So to summarize, I do think Future Sight is a basic CoO skill, with the difference being how far you see, jus like CoA' strengthening is the basic CoA skill, but you can take it much further and it does make a difference. Kind of like Jotaro stopping time 2 seconds vs Dio stopping it 6 seconds. Sounds like a small difference, but it's the world in a fight.

 

[HereNThere]

u're right about Enel's example. Even with his electricity-augmented mantra he was easily countered by "not thinking". However, do we know that would not counter Katakuri's CoO as well just as easily? (with the danger that, if Luffy just "turned off his mind" against Katakuri, he'd be sekewered easily and possibly instantly, because Katakuri is obviously much faster and stronger than Enel beyond his CoO). Is Katakuri's CoO really based on something entirely different or just an improvement over the same base power? Rayleigh's choice of words when he explained the ability suggest the later to me.

It shouldn't counter Katakuri's. Oda portrayed Katakuri as literally seeing stuff going down in front of him in vivid detail before hand. He isn't going off of feeling or intent as we can assume Enel was, he'll actually see the attacks coming at him, despite the lack of intention/presence from Luffy. For me, Rayleigh's choice of words implied that there is a level of CoO beyond what Luffy was learning. That very same chapter had Rayleigh point out that every attack had a presence to it and he was trying to teach Luffy to feel that presence before it hit him. He goes on to explain that Luffy is attuned to sensing actions others will take, to which Luffy agrees. However, he then tells Luffy that there are others who can see the future, differentiating the two abilities as separate. And it makes sense, the ability to intuit/sense something is not the same as being able to clearly see/hear the future.

Satori knew Luffy specifically had "rubber" powers and could stretch moments before he demonstrated it and commented on it. That felt very close to reading around two to three seconds into the future. It's possible he only read Luffy's intentions and not his literal mind, but from his "intentions" he interpreted a glimpse of the future so clear that he knew about Luffy's DF without having seen it in action or even knowing what rubber is.

He knew Luffy was about to stretch, but we don't know if he knew Luffy was a rubber guy. Basic CoO allows people to dodge attacks out of nowhere if you feel it, so Satori likely felt an attack was coming from a strange range and assumed that he would stretch. At least, that's the explanation that I would give in hindsight. Oda most likely didn't have FS or the specifics of haki thought out at that time, so it's possible he treated Mantra similarly to seeing into the future. But, given what we know now and how Oda's treated FS, I don't think Oda would say Satori had FS as an ability. Plus, I'm sure he was said to be the worst Mantra user. We see how Enel was treated and we know he didn't have FS. We also see how Ohm could predict Zoro's movements, but did not foresee Zoro breaking through his shield, something a FS user would've.

So to summarize, I do think Future Sight is a basic CoO skill, with the difference being how far you see, jus like CoA' strengthening is the basic CoA skill, but you can take it much further and it does make a difference. Kind of like Jotaro stopping time 2 seconds vs Dio stopping it 6 seconds. Sounds like a small difference, but it's the world in a fight.

Again, it would really be disappointing for FS to be a basic CoO skill given how much emphasis had been put on Luffy going through hell to attain it. I think it is a completely unique version of CoO that can only be attained by the strongest of characters, as Rayleigh implied. To keep the Jojo comparison going, I think basic CoO is more like the Part 3 Stand Atum while FS is more like the Part 5 Stand Epitaph. The former basically allows you a mostly accurate guess on intent based on reading a person's "soul" while the latter gives you a clear picture of the future that is about to happen.

 

[LadyVados]

 

[Rein Avara]

This is old though

 

[LadyVados]

We have seen Zoro using mountain-level attacks way back in Dressrosa

I'm sure the Flying Six and Calamities all could do stuff in that scale

What happens in a story when dozens of people capable of destroying a mountain are fighting inside of a castle? Apparently not the level of damage you would expect

Why is it Zoro’s feats that get scaled to every character ?

I remember when VSBW had every single high tier at mountain level via scaling to the Pica feat.

Don Chinjao (a man who fought Prime Garp) was blown away by the Pica feat. I doubt most YCs could replicate it let alone headliners.

Jack or Katakuri don’t have a feat anywhere near that level. I’m not saying Kata isn’t overall superior to that version of Zoro as a fighter. But that doesn’t mean he should be above him in every stat.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 14, 2023, Original Post Date: Mar 14, 2023 ---

This is old though

No older than that databook entry people use to slander Zoro.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 14, 2023 ---

Realistically speaking Kata gets one-shot negdiffed by King’s beak attack. It is too fast to avoid and strong enough to one-shot.

 

[Nie Li]

Realistically speaking Kata gets one-shot negdiffed by King’s beak attack. It is too fast to avoid and strong enough to one-shot.

The rest of your post are facts, but this part...

King one-shots Kata if he gets him with that. Kata's CoO would, in theory, easily avoid such a straightforward move regardless of speed.

 

[grey matter]

Why is it Zoro’s feats that get scaled to every character ?

I remember when VSBW had every single high tier at mountain level via scaling to the Pica feat.

Don Chinjao (a man who fought Prime Garp) was blown away by the Pica feat. I doubt most YCs could replicate it let alone headliners.

Jack or Katakuri don’t have a feat anywhere near that level. I’m not saying Kata isn’t overall superior to that version of Zoro as a fighter. But that doesn’t mean he should be above him in every stat.

Didn't you know?
If Zoro can do it, everyone can

But anyway, I think most commander level characters can do an equivalent feat tho.
Dresrossa G4 Luffy folded a city block by punching Doffy down with his KKG, which IMO is a comparable destruction feat to what Zoro did even tho Zoro's is better....... meaning anyone scaling to him in attack power can do as well. Katakuri can do it too, since he could exchange blows with G4 Luffy

No way a Tobiroppo tier can match it, yeah

Realistically speaking Kata gets one-shot negdiffed by King’s beak attack. It is too fast to avoid and strong enough to one-shot.

Nah, he easily avoid it.
There is a prep time for the attack and it's a straightforward attack, so Katakuri tweaks his body around where it would land, regardless of it's speed.

King needs to use his AOE fire attacks or speed mode to land hits on Katakuri

 

[Rein Avara]

No older than that databook entry people use to slander Zoro.

What databook entry? I've not seen anyone here argue using databooks especially in relation to zoro.

 

[Fox666]

Don Chinjao (a man who fought Prime Garp) was blown away by the Pica feat. I doubt most YCs could replicate it let alone headliners.

1 - Could you please share a picture of Chinjao blown away by Pica?
2 - Chinjao may have fought Garp, but he was defeated by Luffy without Gear 4.

Realistically speaking Kata gets one-shot negdiffed by King’s beak attack. It is too fast to avoid and strong enough to one-shot.

I don't think King was implied to be capable of one-shotting a commander-level characters, or to be almost impossible to dodge, akin to Thunder Bagua.

 

[Bandit99]

Don Chinjao (a man who fought Prime Garp) was blown away by the Pica feat. I doubt most YCs could replicate it let alone headliners.

simply fighting shouldn't be a feat lol. you can fight someone and stand no chance

 

[Pirate Queen]

simply fighting shouldn't be a feat lol. you can fight someone and stand no chance

Luffy vs Fujitora for example

 

[Fox666]

I find it weird to compare Pica to a Yonko commander.

It was blatantly obvious in Dressrosa arc that Doflamingo was the only one at commander-level, and there was an abyss between him and his top executives, who were easily defeated.

 

[XXGenesis]

Trying to be objective as possible. For me it’s a 49/51 Split decision.

The issue is King’s & Katakuri’s ability match up as a Stalemate.

King is invulnerable with his Flames on. Fast with them off. Has ancient Zoan boosted stats. He can Fly, create fire for flame attacks, kamikaze explosions, & Lava like Dragons from small to giant sized. A Swordsman with a trick sword who fights H2H also.

Katakuri is an awakened mochi fruit user. With similar but better move pool to Luffy; His Awakening turns the environment into Mochi. He has ACoA, CoC & ACoO. ACoO with his special parmecia body allows him to avoid/dodge/counter incoming attacks. He’s also a spearman.

On Paper I believe King wins with his abilities over Katakuri. It’s a really close match. Katakuri having more chapters to display his fighting style I think gives a bias. King has less showings but they still carry weight to them.

Also FS is problematic. Ppl ignore the clear dialogue of the story of it’s counters. Clear level head is needed & haki can be overused. Luffy got lucky with the 1st counter & didn’t use the 2nd tactic as to fight Katakuri at FP;

In order for Katakuri to hurt King, he has to figure out King is vulnerable when his flames are off. He can only figure that out unless he lands a hit on King when his flames are off…..Then he would still have to wait for that exact moment to attack and land damage…But King has the stamina to take on 2 ACoC attacks..So does Katakuri really go on to win after figuring out his secret??

While all King needs to do is land his attacks. Which he has several…Especially his Best attack, I don’t think is avoidable with FS or not.

I believe it comes down to stamina. I vote King. Katakuri fought for 11hrs with Luffy running away from the fight. King is invulnerable, he can fly, & has his flame attacks…Without creating Any scenarios, I see King with more of a decisive victory

 

[Fox666]

Also FS is problematic. Ppl ignore the clear dialogue of the story of it’s counters. Clear level head is needed & haki can be overused. Luffy got lucky with the 1st counter & didn’t use the 2nd tactic as to fight Katakuri at FP;

Katakuri managed to use CoC continuously for 10 hours.

In order for Katakuri to hurt King, he has to figure out King is vulnerable when his flames are off. He can only figure that out unless he lands a hit on King when his flames are off…..Then he would still have to wait for that exact moment to attack and land damage…

I think Katakuri should be fine in that aspect. Zoro managed to land some hits by pure luck. Katakuri should have his odds multiplied since he can see his hits landing on alternate futures.

But King has the stamina to take on 2 ACoC attacks..So does Katakuri really go on to win after figuring out his secret??

That's probably the hardest part for Katakuri. His damage output is below Bounceman. Even if Katakuri hit King in attack mode, he's still crazy durable.

Even if Katakuri was plummeting King for 10 hours straight, King's Ancint Zoan regeneration abilities come into play.

 

[HereNThere]

Stamina in this series is tricky and is often used more as a hype tool than an actual measurable stat. If Oda wills it, two characters can fight for days on end, only to get downed in under an hour by other characters. Hell, Akainu is likely going to go down to Luffy in that time frame despite him and Kuzan popping off for 2 business weeks against one another. So, imo, stamina can't really be debated properly in the series.

I guess I'll go into more detail about my thoughts on Katakuri's potential performance in this fight while we're still on the topic:

The fight isn't going to be as simple as King just chilling in Flame On mode and fending off Katakuri with basic attacks. From what we've seen, King almost always used his stronger, named techniques when the fire on his back was off. That wasn't always the case, as with Imperial Wings, but all of his physical attacks had him go flame off. And it was during those attacks that Zoro managed to get the drop on King. Even early on in the fight, you can see Zoro's Tiger Trap interception break through more of King's mask, surprising him, likely implying that Zoro broke through his defenses even then. And it's during those attacks where Katakuri's FS will shine because Katakuri can more easily time his counters against King while his flames are off. The large majority of Katakuri's attacks against Luffy were basically counters to Luffy while he was still in the middle of his attacks. Of course, King could stick to the skies and his fire attacks, but I highly doubt that would be enough to take down Katakuri.

King's physical strength is his biggest asset and, while I think Katakuri's Power Mochi would allow him to not be completely outboxed given that that particular technique was still tossing around Boundman during it's short appearance during his and Luffy's fight, it may not be enough as we don't really have a good measure of it's upper limit. I think Mole would be where most of his offense would lie. Unfortunately, because he had to toss it away to give Luffy a fighting chance, we don't have much to go on for it. What little he did show makes me think it'd be enough to deal a significant blow to King when his defenses are down. His haki should definitely be up to snuff to do so. Side note, not confirmed, but as I mentioned earlier, I think the argument could be made that Katakuri may have AdCoC.

Spoiler: Chapter 883

Spoiler: Chapter 1009

Those parallels feel intentional and that scene with Kaido was right before Luffy made his realization that you could infuse CoC in 1010.

Katakuri's Awakening would also be a pretty good boon as it would give him another method of potentially downing King without worrying about bypassing his Lunarian Defenses. Plus it opens him up to a variety of possible avenues to go at King once he's in range.

All that being said, King is not an easy target. I can easily see things quickly going downhill for Kata should King catch him off guard because King not only hits hard as hell, but he can quickly put on pressure with his rapid attacks. And while I think FS is often underplayed way too much, it is not without it's flaws. But the flaw isn't related to speed or stamina. It's simply that FS revolves around the sight of its user. Katakuri got caught off guard by Snakeman not because it was faster, but because it attacked from angles he didn't initially think it would attack from. He got used to it eventually, but that is something King could take advantage of to throw Katakuri off. Especially once he makes use of his suit's hidden weapons. He would be able to keep Katakuri guessing with some attacks.

Earlier I mentioned that King sticking to the skies wouldn't be enough. I stand by that, but that'd still be a clear advantage for King as Katakuri would have no means to reach him (we don't have a clear idea of how far Katakuri's mochi can really stretch) but it would mitigate the effectiveness of Katakuri's awakening. And while I don't think the fire would be enough, King would still be the only one with a way of attacking at a range and holding that advantage for as long as he wants. It wouldn't be enough to take Katakuri down, but it gives him time and options to think of different approaches.

TL;DR: I think Katakuri's moveset is much more suited for King's than King's moveset is for Katakuri. FS especially gives Kata an advantage as it allows him to capitalize on counters, which would allow him to discover King's vulnerability easier than others and his spear gives him the offensive means to deal the necessary damage to potentially take King down.

 

[Rmstorm]

You're right about Enel's example. Even with his electricity-augmented mantra he was easily countered by "not thinking". However, do we know that would not counter Katakuri's CoO as well just as easily? (with the danger that, if Luffy just "turned off his mind" against Katakuri, he'd be sekewered easily and possibly instantly, because Katakuri is obviously much faster and stronger than Enel beyond his CoO). Is Katakuri's CoO really based on something entirely different or just an improvement over the same base power? Rayleigh's choice of words when he explained the ability suggest the later to me.

Satori knew Luffy specifically had "rubber" powers and could stretch moments before he demonstrated it and commented on it. That felt very close to reading around two to three seconds into the future. It's possible he only read Luffy's intentions and not his literal mind, but from his "intentions" he interpreted a glimpse of the future so clear that he knew about Luffy's DF without having seen it in action or even knowing what rubber is.

So to summarize, I do think Future Sight is a basic CoO skill, with the difference being how far you see, jus like CoA' strengthening is the basic CoA skill, but you can take it much further and it does make a difference. Kind of like Jotaro stopping time 2 seconds vs Dio stopping it 6 seconds. Sounds like a small difference, but it's the world in a fight.

Future Sight is not a basic skill. The katakuri fight showed this.

We already went over this before.

The difference between FS and Regular observation is unpredictable movements make regular obsrvation haki fail while FS this tactic does not work as the user actaully sees the future.

This is shown in the enel fight.



Not just this but in chapter 894, we see katakuri and luffy talking to each other using FS.

 

[Nie Li]

Future Sight is not a basic skill. The katakuri fight showed this.

We already went over this before.

The difference between FS and Regular observation is unpredictable movements make regular obsrvation haki fail while FS this tactic does not work as the user actaully sees the future.

This is shown in the enel fight.



Not just this but in chapter 894, we see katakuri and luffy talking to each other using FS.

The reason why I disagree, a reasonable doubt, is already mentioned in the post you quote.

"This is shown in the Enel fight": No, we were shown seeing a couple seconds into the future gets countered by that, we haven't seen "Future Sight" not being countered by the same method, so you can't claim it wouldn't work.

In fact, if Katakuri's "Future Sight" was anything different than what Enel did plus a few extra seconds added, he would have seen Sanji dodge his projectile, but he didn't, because "Future Sight" is still just "mind-reading" turned into predictions. He couldn't see Sanji future in the future until after he attacked because Sanji hadn't yet used his own basic CoO to choose to dodge. Katakuri was surprised that he dodge, hence his power isn't some supernatural time-bending powers that work any different from usual CoO. It's just more advanced and predicts more seconds into it.

Talking to each other in FS isn't a point in this argument, at all. You predict a few seconds of dialogue using basic CoO, but don't have to answer because as soon as you decide to do it your opponent also predicts your answer, etc. Enel could have done that.


We can go over this as many times as you want.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 14, 2023, Original Post Date: Mar 14, 2023 ---

It's also worth mentioning that Luffy's first ever glimpse of basic CoO is literally seeing one second into the future (unlike Usopp's and Coby's, which were all three different, because CoO does have ramifications).

It's not like what I'm saying downplays Katakuri, I'm only talking about the true nature of his ability as an advanced version of Enel's but pretty much equal in nature. It's effectiveness is regarless proven in the manga. A few seconds are that big of a difference.

 

[Pirate Queen]

The reason why I disagree, a reasonable doubt, is already mentioned in the post you quote.

"This is shown in the Enel fight": No, we were shown seeing a couple seconds into the future gets countered by that, we haven't seen "Future Sight" not being countered by the same method, so you can't claim it wouldn't work.

In fact, if Katakuri's "Future Sight" was anything different than what Enel did plus a few extra seconds added, he would have seen Sanji dodge his projectile, but he didn't, because "Future Sight" is still just "mind-reading" turned into predictions. He couldn't see Sanji future in the future until after he attacked because Sanji hadn't yet used his own basic CoO to choose to dodge. Katakuri was surprised that he dodge, hence his power isn't some supernatural time-bending powers that work any different from usual CoO. It's just more advanced and predicts more seconds into it.

Talking to each other in FS isn't a point in this argument, at all. You predict a few seconds of dialogue using basic CoO, but don't have to answer because as soon as you decide to do it your opponent also predicts your answer, etc. Enel could have done that.


We can go over this as many times as you want.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 14, 2023, Original Post Date: Mar 14, 2023 ---

It's also worth mentioning that Luffy's first ever glimpse of basic CoO is literally seeing one second into the future (unlike Usopp's and Coby's, which were all three different, because CoO does have ramifications). It's not like

Your basically saying FS is the equivalent of CoA hardening... a shit ton of focus in CoO and not an advanced form like CoA projection or internal damage which is a completely different aspect of CoA

 

[Nie Li]

Your basically saying FS is the equivalent of CoA hardening... a shit ton of focus in CoO and not an advanced form like CoA projection or internal damage which is a completely different aspect of CoA

Yes.

What's more: CoA projection is not a completely different aspect of CoA. According to Hyogoro it's literally just coating hard and focused on a point of your body instead of letting it disperse elsewhere.

Different aspects of CoO are feeling presences, "hearing" people dying, etc, future sight is literally what we saw in Skypiea with extra seconds. If that offends, I don't know what to tell you.