One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[grey matter]

I think there is room, and always have insisted, that there are valid ways to maintain Mihawk maintaing his title while Shanks is the overall better combatant. Oda has shown clear distinctions between those that dedicate their lifestyles around swordsmanship and those that merely use their swords as a tool.

Black blades and those that strive to obtain them(only Zoro at this point but you get what I mean) are the distinction here, which is why you have characters like Rocks, Roger, WB, Shanks who are the top of the world blade wielders but do not have black blades nor do they seem to strive to get one.

I think once Black Blades are fully explained, the distinction would further be made.

Ahh, the classic reduction of "true swordsmen" to like 3-5 characters in the verse, making the title effectively worthless. The only title where there is so much mental gymnastics......

There is no sense in comparing Mihawk's swordsmanship to Shanks, if Shanks wasn't a swordsmen.
The only way Shanks wouldn't be one, if he showed some form of haki that isn't clearly a part of swordsmanship

 

[Pirate Queen]

Ahh, the classic reduction of "true swordsmen" to like 3-5 characters in the verse, making the title effectively worthless. The only title where there is so much mental gymnastics......

There is no sense in comparing Mihawk's swordsmanship to Shanks, if Shanks wasn't a swordsmen.
The only way Shanks wouldn't be one, if he showed some form of haki that isn't clearly a part of swordsmanship

I'm willing to accept I can be wrong here or even worse, Oda just doesn't address it but my post was for your benefit. Not mine.

The worst thing that happens is that I end up having to admit Mihawk is the stronger of the two and then I get shit from the Fandom for a few weeks.

Shanks is not a character I expect to see the end of the Manga so I'm not as attached to the character as I appear to be, if Hancock were to die however I'd freak.

I do think that it's obvious that Shanks is the stronger of the two and I've stated my reasons ad nauseam but when it appears more obvious Shanks IS stronger, I will still maintain Mihaek has the better sword skills... and the Manga directly tells us.

And as something more lighthearted, when Shanks dies... I'll admit Mihawk is NOW the stronger one lol

 

[shailks]

Ahh, the classic reduction of "true swordsmen" to like 3-5 characters in the verse, making the title effectively worthless. The only title where there is so much mental gymnastics......

There is no sense in comparing Mihawk's swordsmanship to Shanks, if Shanks wasn't a swordsmen.
The only way Shanks wouldn't be one, if he showed some form of haki that isn't clearly a part of swordsmanship

The only difference between Shanks and Mihawk in my view was that the latter used to be a lone wolf. That has changed now and therefore they are now equals in all terms.

 

[Fox666]

The only way Shanks wouldn't be one, if he showed some form of haki that isn't clearly a part of swordsmanship

And why can't that be the case?

Why they didn't simple say Mihawk is stronger than Shanks, but instead went oddly-specific with his swordsmanship?

That tells me that Shanks is stronger than Mihawk, but not with his sword.


I think Morj makes a good point in one his videos. If Shanks could, for example, fire a Hadouken of Haki with his hands, then that wouldn't be considered swordmanship.

 

[grey matter]

And why can't that be the case?

Why they didn't simple say Mihawk is stronger than Shanks, but instead went oddly-specific with his swordsmanship?

That tells me that Shanks is stronger than Mihawk, but not with his sword.


I think Morj makes a good point in one his videos. If Shanks could, for example, fire a Hadouken of Haki with his hands, then that wouldn't be considered swordmanship.

Yes, it could be the case.

My position is pretty much same as Morj's

So far, everything haki related seen yet in the series is applicable to swordsmanship. All basic and advanced haki so far are part of swordsmanship.

But if in the future, Shanks displays some variant of haki that exists that clearly isn't applicable to swordsmanship, then yes Shanks being stronger than Mihawk becomes a possibility.
Like for example, to use Morj's own example........... if Shanks puts his sword down and uses a kamehameha attack with his hand, then yeah that obviously won't be a part of swordsmanship

Why they didn't simple say Mihawk is stronger than Shanks, but instead went oddly-specific with his swordsmanship?

That tells me that Shanks is stronger than Mihawk, but not with his sword.

The straightforward interpretation is that it simply means Mihawk as a swordsman is stronger than Shanks.
The comparison exists because Shanks is also a swordsman, hence why marines used him as someone to compare Mihawk to. Because why not compare to Kaido? Because Kaido isn't a swordsman, hence that comparison fails.

There is nothing in this particular instance indicating that Shanks is somehow stronger than Mihawk.

If Shanks somehow ends up not being a swordsman, then Mihawk vs Shanks becomes debatable based on what we see further in the series.

 

[HereNThere]

It's more likely that, as the manga has been implying, the two are equals.

Shanks is the lesser swordsman compared to Mihawk. That can no longer be questioned given the fact that it is seemingly a publicly accepted fact given that panel with the marines.

By that same token, that evidence is clearly based on their past duels, seeing as how they stopped fighting when Shanks lost his arm. The same duels that they've never officially settled. So, apparently, despite it being obvious that Mihawk was the better swordsman back then, Shanks was still doing something to stalemate Mihawk, who couldn't overcome the now Yonkou. And despite this mysterious something, Shanks also couldn't overcome the now WSS.

And I think we are supposed to take that "swordsmanship" statement at face value and consider them to be referencing just the skill itself. Imagine if that statement read "Yasopp has better marksmanship than either Shanks or Mihawk!". We'd take that at face value without immediately jumping to the conclusion that Yasopp's CoO is better than either of theirs. We can assume that haki is just as applicable to Markmanship as Swordsmanship at higher levels, but Markmanship itself is the main skill being focused on.

 

[Fox666]

I would like to add that after what Shanks did to Kid, Mihawk being stronger than Big Mom is easy to believe

 

[grey matter]

I would like to add that after what Shanks did to Kid, Mihawk being stronger than Big Mom is easy to believe

At this point, I think it's insulting to put BM above any "top tiers" except the old trio (Garp/Ray/Sengoku) and the new admirals lol.

It's more likely that, as the manga has been implying, the two are equals.

Shanks is the lesser swordsman compared to Mihawk. That can no longer be questioned given the fact that it is seemingly a publicly accepted fact given that panel with the marines.

By that same token, that evidence is clearly based on their past duels, seeing as how they stopped fighting when Shanks lost his arm. The same duels that they've never officially settled. So, apparently, despite it being obvious that Mihawk was the better swordsman back then, Shanks was still doing something to stalemate Mihawk, who couldn't overcome the now Yonkou. And despite this mysterious something, Shanks also couldn't overcome the now WSS.

And I think we are supposed to take that "swordsmanship" statement at face value and consider them to be referencing just the skill itself. Imagine if that statement read "Yasopp has better marksmanship than either Shanks or Mihawk!". We'd take that at face value without immediately jumping to the conclusion that Yasopp's CoO is better than either of theirs. We can assume that haki is just as applicable to Markmanship as Swordsmanship at higher levels, but Markmanship itself is the main skill being focused on.

Regarding Shanks/Mihawk, I think the following makes most sense IMO;

- Mihawk was famous when Shanks started dueling him, and Shanks got his fame from dueling Mihawk. This implies to me that Mihawk was initially stronger than Shanks, but Shanks eventually closed the gap to the point where the gap was pretty much non existent and they started stalemating each other over their many duels.
During this time, there was no definitive strongest swordsman, so Shanks stalemating Mihawk has no implication on Mihawk currently being WSS.......because Mihawk wasn't WSS back then based on our knowledge (at least there is no confirmation regarding this).

- Shanks probably had more potential than Mihawk, and would've eventually surpassed him after some years. This makes sense to me, since IMO 2 armed current Shanks would be Roger. But then he lost his arm, betting his potential on the new era, symbolized with passing on the Strawhat.
This is also why Mihawk is stated to be waiting for a swordsman surpassing his rival Shanks.
2 armed Shanks (hypothetical) >= Mihawk >= Shanks


- Yassop being a stronger marksman than Shanks/Mihawk would have some implication on haki, if Shanks/Mihawk were also marksmen. But since they
aren't, this is like comparing apples to oranges.

Anyway, I get the point that swordsmanship has skill involved in it. But ultimately, it is both skill and haki, with haki playing a bigger role from what we have seen in the series. There is a reason why ALL of Zoro's powerups post timeskip was with his haki, there is a reason why the first thing Mihawk taught Zoro was haki with specifically saying that even a scratch on the sword is an insult to swordsman.
The world's strongest swordsman is simply that - stronger than anyone in a swordsfight, haki included. Yes, WSS doesn't necessarily need to have the best haki amongst all swordsmen, he just need to be strong enough overall to be WSS (meaning haki + skill + physical stats + whatever else, "overall power level" should be the highest)

I personally believe that Shanks has stronger conqueror's haki than Mihawk (he's pretty much confirmed to have it through Zoro's ambition being confirmed a conqueror's ambition), while Mihawk have stronger armament and observation haki, making the "overall power level" slightly higher for Mihawk.

 

[Crimson Ice]

And why can't that be the case?

Why they didn't simple say Mihawk is stronger than Shanks, but instead went oddly-specific with his swordsmanship?

That tells me that Shanks is stronger than Mihawk, but not with his sword.


I think Morj makes a good point in one his videos. If Shanks could, for example, fire a Hadouken of Haki with his hands, then that wouldn't be considered swordmanship.

Because Oda will not flat-out state when one rival character is stronger than the other (he dodges Sanji vs Zoro questions even though Zoro is clearly stronger). In a manga where Law, Kaku and Fujitora are considered swordsmen, Shanks using an ability everyone else uses, will not separate himself.

 

[SanaNeOlm]

But ultimately, it is both skill and haki, with haki playing a bigger role from what we have seen in the series. There is a reason why ALL of Zoro's powerups post timeskip was with his haki, there is a reason why the first thing Mihawk taught Zoro was haki with specifically saying that even a scratch on the sword is an insult to swordsman.

I believe Haki and Skill to be intertwined, meaning your Skill Level unlocks your specific Haki type. Hence why all-round strong characters like Sanji and Zoro have more than 1 Haki type while Usopp seemingly only having observation. It is probably like, you can do only so much with raw strength and talent, at some point the next skill tree is Haki based. I so believe Shanks and even Dragon being on another Haki tier all together. I'm one of those who believe that Dragon not having a DF but being able to command the elements with his Haki alone. And i believe Shanks is on a similar tier, though it is to be seen if he trained his Haki and Sword skills together, which Divine departure is a good indication of. Or his Haki is just so powerful that whataver attack he does infused with Haki, it is just plain deadly.

 

[kkck]

I for one have stopped using "YC1" as a level.
But anyway, IMO the ranking for Kid hasn't changed much. Replace Kid by Law, and the outcome would be same.
I would generally put Law above Kid, simply because Law has top tier attack power, while Kid isn't really top tier in anything. But they still belong to the same tier - just on opposite ends of the spectrum.
Where do I see Kid? Generally speaking - comparable to Marco/King, above Katakuri, below Zoro/Law/Yamato.

Kidd is a bit of a wonky fighter in the story but he definitely has top tier attack power. Where he is wonky is in the haki department, instead relying way too much on his devil fruit, specifically his awakening. With his awakening kidd has managed:

1.-His assign power managed to burry big mom and actually broke her arm. Which she then healed using his own life force. Clearly a yonko level attack.
2.- Kidd has a freaking railgun that lives up to the hype. It definitely hurt big mom (imagine if kidd could put haki into these shots kuja style) and it packed enough of a punch to actually have shanks respond by going all out against kidd's sorry ass. Just look at shanks reaction to it. This is the yonko equivalent of shitting your pants.

I feel like its fair to put kidd in the king-katakuri-marco ballpark, which could be a fairly wide category, but he does have attacks that hit a lot harder than anything we ever saw from any of them up to this point. As far as we know katakuri couldn't even injure kaido-big mom if he tried and king's fire maybe kinda does something if it lives up to its hype of being as hot as magma and even then not that much.

 

[albertwv]

Kidd is a bit of a wonky fighter in the story but he definitely has top tier attack power. Where he is wonky is in the haki department, instead relying way too much on his devil fruit, specifically his awakening. With his awakening kidd has managed:

1.-His assign power managed to burry big mom and actually broke her arm. Which she then healed using his own life force. Clearly a yonko level attack.
2.- Kidd has a freaking railgun that lives up to the hype. It definitely hurt big mom (imagine if kidd could put haki into these shots kuja style) and it packed enough of a punch to actually have shanks respond by going all out against kidd's sorry ass. Just look at shanks reaction to it. This is the yonko equivalent of shitting your pants.

I feel like its fair to put kidd in the king-katakuri-marco ballpark, which could be a fairly wide category, but he does have attacks that hit a lot harder than anything we ever saw from any of them up to this point. As far as we know katakuri couldn't even injure kaido-big mom if he tried and king's fire maybe kinda does something if it lives up to its hype of being as hot as magma and even then not that much.

Nah, Kid's attacks are mid. Kid was able to break BM's one arm due to the help of Law's ability. Law internally stabbed her arm and used "Shock Wille" which hurt BM from the inside AND then Kid used his Bull attack on BM. That is how BM got her arm broken. IT was a combined effort, most likely thanks to Law. Kid cannot take that feat of breaking one Yonko's arm by himself.
His railgun lived down the hype.... He used it twice on BM and she did not even feel it. She laughed, it only worked to pin her down. That was a disappointment.

The ONLY REASON why Shanks was worried about Kid's railgun is because he saw a future of where the railgun killed and destroyed his allies/friends/crew. Which we found out that they are weak and that Shanks cares for them by putting them under his wing because he is that type of guy. SO Shanks obviously got mad that Kid was about to kill his weak friends and quickly put a stop to it.
So it is not because Shanks feared Kid, but its because he wanted to protect his friends, just like Luffy would.
Stop giving One-Shot Kid credit for that.

 

[HereNThere]

Yassop being a stronger marksman than Shanks/Mihawk would have some implication on haki, if Shanks/Mihawk were also marksmen. But since they
aren't, this is like comparing apples to oranges.

Anyway, I get the point that swordsmanship has skill involved in it. But ultimately, it is both skill and haki, with haki playing a bigger role from what we have seen in the series. There is a reason why ALL of Zoro's powerups post timeskip was with his haki, there is a reason why the first thing Mihawk taught Zoro was haki with specifically saying that even a scratch on the sword is an insult to swordsman.
The world's strongest swordsman is simply that - stronger than anyone in a swordsfight, haki included. Yes, WSS doesn't necessarily need to have the best haki amongst all swordsmen, he just need to be strong enough overall to be WSS (meaning haki + skill + physical stats + whatever else, "overall power level" should be the highest)

At higher levels of fighting, haki is involved in every aspect and there's going to be overlap, no matter your preferred method of combat. It's why I brought up Yasopp. He's likely the World's Strongest Marksman and can likely outshoot Shanks, Mihawk, and Ben Beckman, someone who we know is also likely a marksman of some kind given he also has a gun. But I'd be hardpressed to say that Yasopp has stronger or better haki than any of them. It's his skill with the gun that makes him stand out.

In another example, Mihawk having a higher grade than Shanks in, let's say, Science, doesn't mean he's inherently better than Shanks at Math as well, despite both subjects being closely linked. There are individuals out there who are aces at science, but can't do math to save their lives and vice versa. It's not something we should assume just because there is some overlap between the two concepts.

Haki plays a larger role in general in this part of the story and is necessary to become the cream of the crop, but that goes for every style of fighting, as I brought up earlier. Mihawk is the WSS because he is the strongest with a sword and has exceptionally strong haki. Nothing indicates that his haki is any stronger than Shanks' or any of the other individuals who are at the top with them nor does it automatically mean he's superior to them in everything else except swordsmanship.

Ceding any trait in Mihawk's favor because he's the WSS and swordsmanship makes use of stats, therefore, he's the strongest in said stat, doesn't jive with me.

 

[grey matter]

At higher levels of fighting, haki is involved in every aspect and there's going to be overlap, no matter your preferred method of combat. It's why I brought up Yasopp. He's likely the World's Strongest Marksman and can likely outshoot Shanks, Mihawk, and Ben Beckman, someone who we know is also likely a marksman of some kind given he also has a gun. But I'd be hardpressed to say that Yasopp has stronger or better haki than any of them. It's his skill with the gun that makes him stand out.

Skill is there, yes. But if he is called "strongest", he simply is that.
If Yassop's title is the strongest gunman or whatever, then nobody is beating him with a gun.

But anyway, he isn't that.
He probably will be strongest sniper or something, not strongest gunman.

Haki plays a larger role in general in this part of the story and is necessary to become the cream of the crop, but that goes for every style of fighting, as I brought up earlier. Mihawk is the WSS because he is the strongest with a sword and has exceptionally strong haki. Nothing indicates that his haki is any stronger than Shanks' or any of the other individuals who are at the top with them nor does it automatically mean he's superior to them in everything else except swordsmanship.

I never said Mihawk definitively has better haki than Shanks. He may or may not, we don't know.

What I am saying however is that, in a sword fight (haki included), Mihawk will defeat Shanks. This is simply what it means to be the world's strongest swordsman.

The world's strongest swordsman is simply that - stronger than anyone in a swordsfight, haki included. Yes, WSS doesn't necessarily need to have the best haki amongst all swordsmen, he just need to be strong enough overall to be WSS (meaning haki + skill + physical stats + whatever else, "overall power level" should be the highest)

 

[Rein Avara]

This is one of those topics were people are always gonna have different interpretation.
The Viz specifies Sword skill which I personally take at face value to just mean strictly ones understanding and proficiency in using the blade (this is before you go applying haki to it).

I'm willing to wait and see to what the actual answer is though, after all this is topic that has the fanbase split.

 

[albertwv]

All Im saying is take away Mihawk's title of WSS and let's see what on-manga feats he has over Shanks.
None.
Nada.

 

[Pirate Queen]

All Im saying is take away Mihawk's title of WSS and let's see what on-manga feats he has over Shanks.
None.
Nada.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Where do you keep finding these

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 4, 2023, Original Post Date: Apr 4, 2023 ---

I think we have to be reasonable with these WSM, WSS, WSC titles. They are very good hype generators and give a lot of narrative weight to the holder of the title, WB was impressive, Kaido was impressive, so I expect Mihawk to be just as impressive.

However, the titles should not be taken too literally since are in all fairness pretty nebulous. What does strongest exactly mean - the ability to win? the ability to lift more weight? etc? Similarly what does man mean? What does creature mean? I was around long enough to remember the days people debated this type of semantics endlessly.

Swordsman as a term though sounding specific also is vague. There are too many ways to qualify what a swordsman is and no consensus even in real life on the term. So when we see WSS title in OP what that exactly means is vague, all that is certain is Oda is hyping the man and he will be very powerful.

 

[Fox666]

All Im saying is take away Mihawk's title of WSS and let's see what on-manga feats he has over Shanks.
None.
Nada.

Which is more than Shanks from chapters 1 to 1078...

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Which is more than Shanks from chapters 1 to 1078...

I think a clash with WB and stopping kaido, ending marineford are at least still hella impressive
I think my mihawk hype died after marineford cause he didn’t look all too impressive granted he wasn’t trying but the marine hunter and bounty reveal got it back up