One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Lol at Kid being "admiral level", any admiral destroys Kid too. The next headcanon that is about to bust is the takes that Yonkos can somehow clown on admirals like what Shanks did to Kid. Admirals will likely be slightly weaker than Yonkos "on average", but still in the same tier to at least warrant a high diff.

Lol at you misunderstanding.

Kidd is Yc1+ the only rank above him would be Yonko/Admiral so unless Mihawk performs a better feat then one shoting a YC1+ then there isn't much to discuss.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I don't think Big Mom's loss was PIS at all. It was ridiculous literal plot armor making Kidd and especially Law tank attacks they had no business being able to tank, the incredible coincidence of the armory's bombs going off in her face at just the right time *on top of* the incredible coincidence of there being a bed of magma to send her down to. Without any of those three things, Law and Kidd would have lost miserably.

These are all good points and were heavy contributors to BMs loss. However, I do think there is PIS involved too since she didn't use any aCoC against Kid/Law and there as also a point where she had both of them on the floor but she didn't finish them off. Kaido also had some PIS but none to this degree.

 

[Fox666]

If he really is a wind user

The manga is ambiguous about that, but the anime made it annoyingly obvious it's a DF ability

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 12, 2023, Original Post Date: Apr 12, 2023 ---

Kidd and especially Law tank attacks they had no business being able to tank

There's isn't much consistency in the tankiness in One Piece, it's all plot convenience

 

[albertwv]

I never believed Kid + Law > BM with strength alone or that Kid + Law could defeat an Admiral or close to an Admiral level.
Nope. It was all thanks to PLOT. As people have pointed it out .
So I didn't have my hopes up high for Kid and thanks to Shanks we saw proof that Kid isn't where people think he is on the scaling level.
Kid doesn't even deserve a $3b bounty, not even Law. Best they deserve is $2b and that is pushing it.

Even Luffy had PLOT to help him defeat Kaido, I still wouldnt even place Luffy as Admiral level or Yonko level.

The thing is with this sub/thread is that people heavily rely on NARRATIVE and PLOT to scale characters ,which is the wrong way to do it with One Piece. This isn't DBZ where the next opponent is hundreds time stronger than the one before (well at times it is) OR that Luffy is automatically stronger than the opponent he "defeated".

I can argue that Crocodile > Enel, depending on setting.
Lucci > Moria
Katakuri > WCI Luffy
Kaido > G5 Luffy.

In his past 3 villain fights (Kaido, Kata, Doffy)
Luffy has had outside help or influence to help him "win" the battles. It stopped being a true 1v1 (including Lucci's fight in Enies Lobby)

Law helped Luffy weaken Doffy and the Colosseum fighters bought time for Luffy to recover before taking down Doffy.
Luffy kept running away from Kata, Kata self-inflicted wound helped level the playing field.
Kaido fought various YC level fighters, kept the island floating, and didn't really have much of a break while fighting everybody.
If it wasn't for Usopp encouraging Luffy, Lucci would have won that fight, but thanks to the power of friendship and speech Luffy got back up.

 

[Fox666]

I never believed Kid + Law > BM with strength alone or that Kid + Law could defeat an Admiral or close to an Admiral level.
Nope. It was all thanks to PLOT. As people have pointed it out .
So I didn't have my hopes up high for Kid and thanks to Shanks we saw proof that Kid isn't where people think he is on the scaling level.
Kid doesn't even deserve a $3b bounty, not even Law. Best they deserve is $2b and that is pushing it.

Even Luffy had PLOT to help him defeat Kaido, I still wouldnt even place Luffy as Admiral level or Yonko level.

The thing is with this sub/thread is that people heavily rely on NARRATIVE and PLOT to scale characters ,which is the wrong way to do it with One Piece. This isn't DBZ where the next opponent is hundreds time stronger than the one before (well at times it is) OR that Luffy is automatically stronger than the opponent he "defeated".

I can argue that Crocodile > Enel, depending on setting.
Lucci > Moria
Katakuri > WCI Luffy
Kaido > G5 Luffy.

In his past 3 villain fights (Kaido, Kata, Doffy)
Luffy has had outside help or influence to help him "win" the battles. It stopped being a true 1v1 (including Lucci's fight in Enies Lobby)

Law helped Luffy weaken Doffy and the Colosseum fighters bought time for Luffy to recover before taking down Doffy.
Luffy kept running away from Kata, Kata self-inflicted wound helped level the playing field.
Kaido fought various YC level fighters, kept the island floating, and didn't really have much of a break while fighting everybody.
If it wasn't for Usopp encouraging Luffy, Lucci would have won that fight, but thanks to the power of friendship and speech Luffy got back up.

It depends of which Crocodile you are talking about. The one that was defeated by Luffy in Arabasta? Enel is definitely stronger than him.

Luffy punched Crocodile hard, and despite that, once Enel realized the effect of Luffy's ability on his, this happened after 5 seconds:

Enel only lost because he made the mistake of attaching that metal ball to Luffy's hand, which was the perfect weapon to defeat him.

On top of that, Enel has an Admira-level Logia ability. That easily puts him way above Rob Lucci.

Of course if we were to compare Enel to Crocodile during Marineford, it would be a completely different story.


We don't Luffy could defeat Moriah in normal circumstances, since when Luffy defeated Moriah both were already at their limits.

However, since we don't have anything else to compare, I guess that Luffy with Gear 2 and 3 could defeat Moriah.

Since Rob Lucci was so closely matched with Luffy, then it would mean he's also above Moriah.


I'm not sure about Hody Jones vs Ceasar Clown. The later has some tricky abilities, and even knocked down Luffy, but it took much less to take him down.


These are my power levels for the Grand Line villains:

- Crocodile: 100,000,000
- Smoker: 80,000,000
- Enel: 400,000,000
- Rob Lucci: 240,000,000
- Moriah: 200,000,000
- Oars: 500,000,000
- Kuma: 1,500,000,000
- Pacifistas: 300,000,000

- Magellan: 2,000,000,000
- Marine Admirals: 3,000,000,000 - 4,000,000,000
- Crocodile (during Marineford): 600,000,000
- Smoker (during Marineford): 300,000,000

- Hody Jones: 350,000,000
- Ceasar Clown: 300,000,000
- Doflamingo: 750,000,000
- Fujitora: 2,000,000,000
- Katakuri: 1,200,000,000
- Kaido: 4,500,000,000

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 13, 2023, Original Post Date: Apr 13, 2023 ---

Because it's not a regular attack? It's a named attack, performed in a way we've only seen from the likes Elizabello who needed a lot of prep time.
Big Mom and Kaido were also simped for the Ocean's Sovereignty, attacks like this just gives us a little bit of insight of what a character is capable of, Garp was written off as being old and 'weak' by a number of people in the fanbase so this past chapter was a bit of a refreshing one for those who wanted this see the Legendary Hero in action.

Just let the people enjoy the scene/attack/chapter or what have you, if you feel different then fine, but don't attempt to invalidate how people react to a chapter because of that.

So you guys are thirst

 

[DeadlyBeast]

- Fujitora: 2,000,000,000

You are sleeping on Fujitora man. I don't think the new admirals are going to be any weaker than the old admirals (at least not in a way to make them different tier). The separation of old and new admirals is just time in the story, aside from that they are the same. If you put the old admirals at 3-4B range the new ones will also be in that range, even if they average less.

 

[Core D. Roy]

Enel only lost because he made the mistake of attaching that metal ball to Luffy's hand, which was the perfect weapon to defeat him.

Enel lost the same way Kaidou lost: sheer ego getting in the way of tactics. Both were clearly way above Luffy's level, had every means of defeating him through their CoO in future sight/mantra respectively, and both chose to take Luffy's big attack head-on for no reason other than arrogance and more importantly, the plot demanding it.

 

[Crimson Ice]

It depends of which Crocodile you are talking about. The one that was defeated by Luffy in Arabasta? Enel is definitely stronger than him.

Luffy punched Crocodile hard, and despite that, once Enel realized the effect of Luffy's ability on his, this happened after 5 seconds:

Enel only lost because he made the mistake of attaching that metal ball to Luffy's hand, which was the perfect weapon to defeat him.

On top of that, Enel has an Admira-level Logia ability. That easily puts him way above Rob Lucci.

Of course if we were to compare Enel to Crocodile during Marineford, it would be a completely different story.


We don't Luffy could defeat Moriah in normal circumstances, since when Luffy defeated Moriah both were already at their limits.

However, since we don't have anything else to compare, I guess that Luffy with Gear 2 and 3 could defeat Moriah.

Since Rob Lucci was so closely matched with Luffy, then it would mean he's also above Moriah.


I'm not sure about Hody Jones vs Ceasar Clown. The later has some tricky abilities, and even knocked down Luffy, but it took much less to take him down.


These are my power levels for the Grand Line villains:

- Crocodile: 100,000,000
- Smoker: 80,000,000
- Enel: 400,000,000
- Rob Lucci: 240,000,000
- Moriah: 200,000,000
- Oars: 500,000,000
- Kuma: 1,500,000,000
- Pacifistas: 300,000,000

- Magellan: 2,000,000,000
- Marine Admirals: 3,000,000,000 - 4,000,000,000
- Crocodile (during Marineford): 600,000,000
- Smoker (during Marineford): 300,000,000

- Hody Jones: 350,000,000
- Ceasar Clown: 300,000,000
- Doflamingo: 750,000,000
- Fujitora: 2,000,000,000
- Katakuri: 1,200,000,000
- Kaido: 4,500,000,000

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 13, 2023, Original Post Date: Apr 13, 2023 ---

So you guys are thirst

Admiral tier logia mean nothing when your physical stats are ass. Enel was being tagged by pre gears Luffy. Enel is above pre-TS Lucci off logia intangibility.

 

[I Am Atomic]

We don't Luffy could defeat Moriah in normal circumstances, since when Luffy defeated Moriah both were already at their limits.

However, since we don't have anything else to compare, I guess that Luffy with Gear 2 and 3 could defeat Moriah.

Since Rob Lucci was so closely matched with Luffy, then it would mean he's also above Moriah.

I think otherwise. From what I remember, Moria was stronger than Lucci by a big margin. Luffy needed a temporary power up (Gear 4 knock off) to damage Moria, which wasn't required for Lucci. Luffy also used Gear 2nd and 3rd simultaneously to defeat Moria in Asgard form, which was a first too. Adding onto the fact that SHs get stronger across arcs as well.

 

[Fox666]

You are sleeping on Fujitora man. I don't think the new admirals are going to be any weaker than the old admirals (at least not in a way to make them different tier). The separation of old and new admirals is just time in the story, aside from that they are the same. If you put the old admirals at 3-4B range the new ones will also be in that range, even if they average less.

Dunno, but Fujitora and Ryokugyu feats are lacking compared to the others.

I think otherwise. From what I remember, Moria was stronger than Lucci by a big margin. Luffy needed a temporary power up (Gear 4 knock off) to damage Moria, which wasn't required for Lucci. Luffy also used Gear 2nd and 3rd simultaneously to defeat Moria in Asgard form, which was a first too. Adding onto the fact that SHs get stronger across arcs as well.

Nightmare Luffy defeated Oars, whom I ranked as 500 million worth.

 

[I Am Atomic]

Nightmare Luffy defeated Oars, whom I ranked as 500 million worth.

Wasn't Moria inside Oars and got damaged?

 

[Fox666]

Wasn't Moria inside Oars and got damaged?

Yes?

 

[kkck]

TBH I don't think TB moria was weaker than luffy at the time. Moria was mostly fighting like a jackass through it all but during the short confrontation we actually saw between normal moria and normal luffy for the most part luffy couldn't even get past moria's shadow. After that moria used oar's corpse, until nightmare luffy showed up and beat him into unconsciousness, briefly. And the moria, who had eaten enough damage to lose consciousness, went with 1000 shadows which at the time proved too much for him to control. I doubt gear 2-3 luffy was even close to nightmare luffy... However moria ultimately managed to stand up from nightmare luffy's beating, albeit with a ton of damage, and in his shadow asgard form gear 2-3 luffy pushed him enough that he lost control over his ability completely. Add to that moria having enough firepower to nuke oar's jr, which he never even bothered with during TB arc. 2 years ago moria lost not because he was weaker than luffy but because his lazy approach to battle simply gave the strawhats all the space they needed to wear him down to the point where he could be defeated. Which is a common theme in arcs with the strawhats engaging more powerful enemies. (crocodile took 3 attempts, doflamingo fought potentially hundreds of people, katakuri simply allowed luffy a fair fight until luffy became strong enough to overcome him, kaido an big mom took a lot of damage over insanely long battles).

 

[I Am Atomic]

Yes?

So, doesn't that put Moria above Lucci in terms of strength?

 

[Fox666]

So, doesn't that put Moria above Lucci in terms of strength?

But Oars was the strongest opponent, not Moriah

 

[I Am Atomic]

But Oars was the strongest opponent, not Moriah

Wasn't Oars controlled by Moria due to his DF? Which means it's Moria's strength?

Same argument could be made for necromancers who has their summons.

Some people can fight anytime using their bare fist, but others need preparation. Doesn't take away their strength tho.

 

[kkck]

Wasn't Oars controlled by Moria due to his DF? Which means it's Moria's strength?

Same argument could be made for necromancers who has their summons.

Some people can fight anytime using their bare fist, but others need preparation. Doesn't take away their strength tho.

very murky subject IMO. At a minimum it's a safe bet that this was still a significant upgrade for moria at that point in time. But it's not exactly his own innate strength. Even on the summoner angle it's not like moria was spending mana keeping oars or oar's own physical might was contingent on moria's power. It's also a bit weird because with moria's own powers you'd think oar's would be somewhat redundant. For instance, moria used his ability to modidy oar's shape... but you'd think moria could do that to his own body, which he never did.

Part of the issue here is that in hindsight's moria's plan with oar's was so bad because it obviously would have never worked. Moria got pretty weak by competent new world pirate standards over time. And as impressive as oars was during thriller bark when backed by moria... what could it have done in the new world as we have seen it? I could see moria soloing a pacifista if he gets a hit in (his firepower was clearly very high) but him getting a hit is by no means something obvious given what we saw. And the level oar's showed does not appear to be something that much higher than what others in the new world can do. Obviously a yonko would fart oar's away ten times over without any effort. Calamity/sweet commanders would have easy victories over him as well. Honestly, I could see tamago/pekoms types soloing oar's/moria with ease. On a military angle I suppose the thing is pretty dangerous but I don't like it's chances against even less than executive types in yonko crews at this point.

 

[albertwv]

Nah y'all wrong on Moria take.
Lucci put Luffy through a more difficult battle than Moria and Oars did. Luffy's body wasn't responding to him and thanks to Usopp he got a friendship boost.

During TB, Moria did manage to STALL Luffy from fighting him with his shadow that doesnt mean he was stronger.
Moria was stronger than Oars, the giant zombie was only difficult to beat because he was a ZOMBIE, huge, and Moria gave him a power up. Nightmare Luffy wasn't needed, the Straw Hats could have handled Oars by himself, themselves. But it was Moria's ability that gave them a hard time.
Not saying NM Luffy wasn't strong, he was definitely the strongest pre-time skip form.
NM Luffy vs Oars + Moria, Luffy dominated that fight and Moria was a punching bag due to him being inside Oars and not getting out. Sucks for him lol.

But then we saw Gear 2+3 Luffy fighting Shadows Asgard Moria, but honestly it was no issue to Luffy. Moria barely damaged him. On the other hand Luffy was landing all the blows.
Luffy had it harder fighting Lucci than Moria.

Lucci has better stats than Moria and I bet Lucci would beat Moria.
Although I place the Pre TS Pacifistas stronger than Pre TS Luffy, Moria, and Lucci in a 1v1. It would definitely be a close call but after seeing how the Monster Trio had to use their strongest attacks to take one down after a long fight.

 

[Fox666]

Wasn't Oars controlled by Moria due to his DF? Which means it's Moria's strength?

Same argument could be made for necromancers who has their summons.

Some people can fight anytime using their bare fist, but others need preparation. Doesn't take away their strength tho.

Oars is not a summon, it's a separate corpse

For instance, moria used his ability to modidy oar's shape... but you'd think moria could do that to his own body, which he never did.

I think it's because Oars is a zombie

Otherwise, I assume if Moriah stretched a living person body like that it would kill them

Nah y'all wrong on Moria take.
Lucci put Luffy through a more difficult battle than Moria and Oars did. Luffy's body wasn't responding to him and thanks to Usopp he got a friendship boost.

During TB, Moria did manage to STALL Luffy from fighting him with his shadow that doesnt mean he was stronger.
Moria was stronger than Oars, the giant zombie was only difficult to beat because he was a ZOMBIE, huge, and Moria gave him a power up. Nightmare Luffy wasn't needed, the Straw Hats could have handled Oars by himself, themselves. But it was Moria's ability that gave them a hard time.
Not saying NM Luffy wasn't strong, he was definitely the strongest pre-time skip form.
NM Luffy vs Oars + Moria, Luffy dominated that fight and Moria was a punching bag due to him being inside Oars and not getting out. Sucks for him lol.

But then we saw Gear 2+3 Luffy fighting Shadows Asgard Moria, but honestly it was no issue to Luffy. Moria barely damaged him. On the other hand Luffy was landing all the blows.
Luffy had it harder fighting Lucci than Moria.

Lucci has better stats than Moria and I bet Lucci would beat Moria.
Although I place the Pre TS Pacifistas stronger than Pre TS Luffy, Moria, and Lucci in a 1v1. It would definitely be a close call but after seeing how the Monster Trio had to use their strongest attacks to take one down after a long fight.

I don't think the Straw Hats have the power to defeat Oars

They could only do it because they know Luffy's personality, and gained time to use a plan against him

But in terms of strength, they were completely outmatched

 

[kkck]

Oars is not a summon, it's a separate corpse


I think it's because Oars is a zombie

Otherwise, I assume if Moriah stretched a living person body like that it would kill them


I don't think the Straw Hats have the power to defeat Oars

They could only do it because they know Luffy's personality, and gained time to use a plan against him

But in terms of strength, they were completely outmatched

Not sure how the logic there works. Why would it kill moria? because it stretches and maims it's bones? But... in that case, it would do the same to a corpse.