One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[BlackTiger]

+ @BlackTiger
The Shanks feat can simply be explained away by concluding that Shanks hits on a different tier from Big Mom.

It isn't even really hard to see why. Swordsmen are known to hit much harder relative to their tier. Plus, Shanks doesn't have durability comparable to Kaido or big mom, not even close, so he needs relatively higher attack power and CQC to be top tier

It concludes that powercreep that you kept preaching on is bullshit because Shanks blitzed much faster Kidd than his Wano self (by virtue of powercreep) who was keeping up with kaido which implies that Shanks is much faster than Kaido so Shanks>Kaido which contradicts the manga.

Then how will Kaido beat Shanks if powercreep does exist? By powercreep, Elbaf Kidd>>>Wano Kidd.

Wano Kidd was keeping up with Big Mom who was keeping up with Kaido.

By speed, Shanks>>>Elbaf Kidd>Wano Kidd=Kaido.

Shanks ap is also >Kaido ap. Shanks 1 shot Kidd and Killer when Shanks Kamusari slashed Kidd's body.
Thunder Bagua that hit Law's body did not KO Law.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 25, 2023, Original Post Date: Aug 25, 2023 ---

@grey matter

Funny you said this when you said that Kaido 1 shoting non FS Boundman Luffy implies that Kaido can 1 shot Katakuri too when Katakuri already beat non FS Boundman faster than Kaido. You didn't come up with the conclusion that Kaido ap hit on a different tier than Katakuri. However, when Shanks 1 shot Kidd who beat Big Mom, you still put Shanks on the same tier as Big Mom.

 

[grey matter]

It concludes that powercreep that you kept preaching on is bullshit because Shanks blitzed much faster Kidd than his Wano self (by virtue of powerscaling) who was keeping up with kaido which implies that Shanks is much faster than Kaido so Shanks>Kaido which contradicts the manga.

Then how will Kaido beat Shanks if powercreep does exist? By powercreep, Elbaf Kidd>>>Wano Kidd.

Wano Kidd was keeping up with Big Mom who was keeping up with Kaido.

By speed, Shanks>>>Elbaf Kidd>Wano Kidd=Kaido.

Why is Elbaf Kid >> Kid who fought BM? What did he do?

Power creep simply means you get stronger as you complete a fight or training. Because mid fight you get boosted, and training for a long period boosts you.
Start of Wano Luffy >= WCI Luffy that learned future sight. Because nothing substantial happened between, so gap is only small.
Post Udon Luffy >> WCI Luffy that learned future sight. Because Luffy trained hard for a month. This is solidified by Kaido's "what changed since I destroyed him in Kuri" followed by his famous vision of his "top 5".

It isn't really hard when you stop being dense lmao.
Current luffy >= Luffy that fought Kaido at end of Wano >> 1010 Luffy >> post Udon Luffy >> post WCI Luffy

Coming to Kaido vs Shanks. Shanks absolutely stands a chance at beating Kaido. Look at what Oden did, Shanks is a better swordsman.
Doesn't mean he's stronger, because his durability it's low as well relative to Kaido, so Kaido can also take him down quickly. Kaido has his own future sight to deal with Shanks, but if the "observation haki killer" is a thing Shanks probably wins due to matchup.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 25, 2023, Original Post Date: Aug 25, 2023 ---

Funny you said this when you said that Kaido 1 shoting non FS Boundman Luffy implies that Kaido can 1 shot Katakuri too when Katakuri already beat non FS Boundman faster than Kaido. You didn't come up with the conclusion that Kaido ap hit on a different tier than Katakuri. However, when Shanks 1 shot Kidd who beat Big Mom, you still put Shanks on the same tier as Big Mom.

??
Kaido's attack power >>> Katakuri. I've always said that lmao

Shanks is stronger than Big Mom, but it would be a high diff. They can overall be on same tier because BM has durability much superior to Shanks, AOE and versatility with homies. Shanks has higher attack power, mobility and CQC

 

[BlackTiger]

Why is Elbaf Kid >> Kid who fought BM? What did he do?

Power creep simply means you get stronger as you complete a fight or training.

Didn't Kidd beat Big Mom? By powercreep why won't Elbaf Kidd>>>Wano Kidd?

Because mid fight you get boosted, a

Start of WCI Luffy got his arm swollen from clashing with Block Mochi. Snakeman Luffy after 10 hours still got his arm swollen from clashing with Block Mochi. Luffy did not get better armament in the middle of his fight against Katakuri.

and training for a long period boosts you.

Zoro trained all the time he did not get faster. The only boost Luffy got after Udon training was his armament not his speed.

Start of Wano Luffy >= WCI Luffy that learned future sight. Because nothing substantial happened between, so gap is only small.

There's no speed gap between post Udon Luffy and WCI Luffy.

Post Udon Luffy >> WCI Luffy that learned future sight. Because Luffy trained hard for a month. This is solidified by Kaido's "what changed since I destroyed him in Kuri" followed by his famous vision of his "top 5".

Because Luffy can damage Kaido while act 1 Luffy cannot damage Kaido. Still no powercreep in speed. That means post Udon Gear 2 Luffy was slower than WCI Snakeman even if Gear 2 Luffy used advCoC still cannot beat Katakuri and will still lose since advCoC did not make Luffy faster.

Coming to Kaido vs Shanks. Shanks absolutely stands a chance at beating Kaido. Look at what Oden did, Shanks is a better swordsman.
Doesn't mean he's stronger, because his durability it's low as well relative to Kaido, so Kaido can also take him down quickly. Kaido has his own future sight to deal with Shanks, but if the "observation haki killer" is a thing Shanks probably wins due to matchup.

That means powercreep does not exist. Kidd did not get faster. Powercreep implies Shanks>>>Kaido. If Kaido=>Shanks, that means Kidd did not get faster after Wano. Fighting Big Mom did not make Kidd faster.

If fighting Big Mom did not make Kidd faster, why should post Udon Kidd be faster than pre Udon Kidd when Kidd did not fight any strong opponents?

There's no reason why Luffy should get faster after Udon too.

??
Kaido's attack power >>> Katakuri. I've always said that lmao

Shanks is stronger than Big Mom, but it would be a high diff. They can overall be on same tier because BM has durability much superior to Shanks, AOE and versatility with homies

So Katakuri vs Kaido is not a high diff? Despite speed powercreep is debunked by Shanks. And Snakeman that hit as fast as Katakuri blitzed non FS Kaido means Katakuri can blitz non FS Kaido too?

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 25, 2023, Original Post Date: Aug 25, 2023 ---

The difference between Shanks vs Kidd and Big Mom vs Kidd is not close at all. Shanks showed much better feats than Big Mom. Shanks beat Kidd in less than 10 seconds. Kidd without awakening stalemated Big Mom before Law came to help.

While Katakuri vs non FS Boundman and Kaido vs non FS Boundman is very close. Katakuri forced non FS Boundman to run away. Kaido had to wait for 30 minutes until he can 1 shot Boundman.

Despite this, you said Big Mom can push Shanks to high diff while Kaido vs Katakuri, (despite Katakuri performed better than Kaido against Boundman) will end up with Kaido 1 shoting Katakuri.

This does not make sense. This must be a joke.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 25, 2023 ---

@grey matter

So let me get this straight.

Shanks in less than 10 seconds 1 shot Kidd.
Big Mom got stalemated by non awakening Kidd.

Conclusion: Shanks high diffs Big Mom.

Kaido after 30 minutes 1 shot non FS Boundman.
Katakuri forced non FS Boundman to run away.

Conclusion: Kaido low diffs Katakuri.

Do you realize how ridiculous that is?

You cannot tell me that Shanks who 1 shot awakning Kidd high diffs Big Mom who got stalemated by non awakening Kidd while kaido who needed 30 minutes to beat non FS Boundman, the mode that lost to Cracker can low diff Katakuri when katakuri bodied non FS Boundman too like Kaido did. It's not consistent.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 25, 2023 ---

Shanks absolutely stands a chance at beating Kaido.

Kaido fought Shanks and still said only Joyboy could beat him. That means Kaido did not see Shanks as someone who is capable to beat him. This is why if there is powercreep which also implies Shanks>>>>Kaido, it does not make sense. It contradicts the manga where Kaido despite fighting Shanks still said only Joyboy can beat him. He did not deem Shanks as someone strong enough to beat him.

 

[john ellis]

I’d like to see the fandom stop down playing gear 5. No kaido at full health cannot beat g5 he is simply out classed in terms of power and versatility. Gear 5 luffy was heavily damaged when he entered the state vs kaido. He was at the very least in twice as worse as shape as kaido. and he didn’t have any help in defeating kaido. Kaido at 30% couldn’t beat g5 luffy at 15%. How possibly could a 100% kaido beat a100% g5 luffy

 

[LaGOAT]

@BlackTiger elbaf kidd might be slightly stronger than wano kidd.but both are not even yonko tier and they probably ain’t admiral tier lvl either kidd tanked big mom punches. shanks divine departure>big mom punches. When did Kidd stalemated big mom?

 

[BlackTiger]

@BlackTiger elbaf kidd might be slightly stronger than wano kidd.but both are not even yonko tier and they probably ain’t admiral tier lvl either kidd tanked big mom punches. shanks divine departure>big mom punches. When did Kidd stalemated big mom?

I'm talking the difference between Kidd who stalemated Big Mom and Elbaf Kidd. Not Kidd at the end of Wano with Elbaf Kidd.

Kidd stalemated Big Mom before Law came to his aid.

Left panel in the middle.

By powercreep, Kidd stalemated Big Mom then after having a death fight with Big Mom with law's help Kidd got much faster. That's Elbaf Kidd.

Elbaf Kidd>>>Non awakening kidd who stalemated Big Mom in term of speed. The fact that Shanks blitzed Elbaf Kidd who was much faster than non awakening Kidd who stalemated Big Mom (by virtue of powercreep) shows Shanks can blitz Kaido too.

Shanks ap>Kaido ap too which makes it like powercreep implies Shanks>Kaido which contradicts the manga. So powercreep does not make sense.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 25, 2023, Original Post Date: Aug 25, 2023 ---

@BlackTiger elbaf kidd might be slightly stronger than wano kidd.but both are not even yonko tier and they probably ain’t admiral tier lvl either kidd tanked big mom punches. shanks divine departure>big mom punches. When did Kidd stalemated big mom?

Does Shanks low diff Big Mom or not.

Powercreep makes it like Elbaf Kidd>>>>Non awakening Kidd who stalemated Big Mom in speed so it seems like Shanks low diffs Big Mom.

 

[LaGOAT]

I'm talking the difference between Kidd who stalemated Big Mom and Elbaf Kidd. Not Kidd at the end of Wano with Elbaf Kidd.

Kidd stalemated Big Mom before Law came to his aid.

Left panel in the middle.

By powercreep, Kidd stalemated Big Mom then after having a death fight with Big Mom with law's help Kidd got much faster. That's Elbaf Kidd.

Elbaf Kidd>>>Non awakening kidd who stalemated Big Mom in term of speed. The fact that Shanks blitzed Elbaf Kidd who was much faster than non awakening Kidd who stalemated Big Mom (by virtue of powercreep) shows Shanks can blitz Kaido too.

Shanks ap>Kaido ap too which makes it like powercreep implies Shanks>Kaido which contradicts the manga. So powercreep does not make sense.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 25, 2023, Original Post Date: Aug 25, 2023 ---

Does Shanks low diff Big Mom or not.

Powercreep makes it like Elbaf Kidd>>>>Non awakening Kidd who stalemated Big Mom in speed so it seems like Shanks low diffs Big Mom.

Lol how was that a stalemate? Plus law was there to help him u clearly him there lol. I know what u meant I’m saying the boost isn’t as large as some1 like luffy.

shanks might be stronger than kaid. but they both on the same tier that isn’t contradicting kaido>big mom also but they both in the same tier. Just because some1 might slightly stronger doesn’t mean it contradicting same tier=\= same exactly level.

elbaf kidd was caught off guard 2. Kidd isn’t yonko tierhe isn’t beating BM himself even law and Kidd together needed outside interference to beat BM they didn’t truly “defeated” her

 

[BlackTiger]

Lol how was that a stalemate? Plus law was there to help him u clearly him there lol. I know what u meant I’m saying the boost isn’t as large as some1 like luffy.

shanks might be stronger than kaid. but they both on the same tier that isn’t contradicting kaido>big mom also but they both in the same tier. Just because some1 might slightly stronger doesn’t mean it contradicting same tier=\= same exactly level.

elbaf kidd was caught off guard 2. Kidd isn’t yonko tierhe isn’t beating BM himself even law and Kidd together needed outside interference to beat BM they didn’t truly “defeated” her

How is that not stalemate? Kidd can keep up with Big Mom speed which means Kidd can keep up with Kaido speed too who stalemated Big Mom for 3 days. The point is Kidd can keep up with Big Mom speed. My point is Kidd speed allowed him to keep up with someone who stalemated Kaido for 3 days.

Kidd got a boost in speed does not make sense. That means Shanks>>>>Elbaf Kidd>>>>>Non awakening Kidd who stalemated Big Mom=Kaido in speed. Shanks low diffs Kaido which contradicts the maga.

Shanks is not stronger than Kaido. Kaido after he fought Shanks said only Joyboy can beat him that means Kaido did not see Shanks as someone who was capable of beating him. He still said nobody can beat him even though Kaido fought Shanks.

In middle panel. Shanks also started moving to get One piece after Kaido and Big Mom died. Shanks cannot be stronger than Kaido.

If Kidd did not get speed boost then Luffy did not get speed boost too. No need to nitpick which one gets huge boost which one does not to suit your agenda.

So Shanks who 1 shot much stronger Kidd high diffs Big Mom who got stalemated by much weaker Kidd while Kaido needing 30 minutes to beat non FS Boundman, the form that lost to Cracker implies Kaido in act 1 can 1 shot Katakuri too despite Katakuri also low diffed Boundman like Kaido did. You cannot be more biased than this.

You might as well say Katakuri and Kaido are on the same tier because Kaido did not outperform Katakuri when Kaido was fighting Boundman while Shanks far outperformed Big Mom when Shanks was fighting Kidd since Shanks beat Kidd in less than 10 seconds. Big Mom cannot beat much weaker Kidd in less than 10 seconds.

There's no sneak attack. Kidd knew he was fighting Shanks. There's no a surprise attack when both fighters knew they were fighting each other.

I'm not talking about Kidd needing Law to beat Big Mom. I'm talking why Kidd without awakening can stalemate Big Mom while Kidd who got much faster after death fight with Big Mom and with awakening cannot last for 10 seconds against Shanks which makes powercreep does not make sense. It seems like a death fight with Big Mom did not make Kidd faster, more durable, physically stronger.

 

[Ricko]

Kid was focusing and charging an attack against another target, when Shank blitzed him... It's clearly the definitition of a sneak attack.

Kid didn't expect to fight Shank before he clean the allies fleet, he was surprised of this attack.
And i'm sure, didn't expect someone without DF could jump his way for the island so quickly.

If it was not the case, he could have use his devil fruit against the sword and give more challenge to the Yankou.
Or use his power to block the way.

 

[hokageji]

Why is Elbaf Kid >> Kid who fought BM? What did he do?

This is a genuine question and a valid one. Against big mom, he went with his large attack when she had barely any chance to counter the attack. Against Shanks, he rushed into his strongest attack so if anything, he's inferior. To be fair, at best, its just the same.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 25, 2023, Original Post Date: Aug 25, 2023 ---

Kid was focusing and charging an attack against another target, when Shank blitzed him... It's clearly the definitition of a sneak attack.

Kid didn't expect to fight Shank before he clean the allies fleet, he was surprised of this attack.
And i'm sure, didn't expect someone without DF could jump his way for the island so quickly.

If it was not the case, he could have use his devil fruit against the sword and give more challenge to the Yankou.
Or use his power to block the way.

And i'd like to add that the scenario would be similar if Big Mom was in Shanks' position. Well, we can argue that she won't be able to move at Shanks' speed, but she'd do something to dodge or counter atleast, she didn't have the same opportunity.

All the Yonko's are at similar power levels. They are all having different styles and advantages, but will evenly fight it out.

 

[LaGOAT]

How is that not stalemate? Kidd can keep up with Big Mom speed which means Kidd can keep up with Kaido speed too who stalemated Big Mom for 3 days. The point is Kidd can keep up with Big Mom speed. My point is Kidd speed allowed him to keep up with someone who stalemated Kaido for 3 days.

Kidd got a boost in speed does not make sense. That means Shanks>>>>Elbaf Kidd>>>>>Non awakening Kidd who stalemated Big Mom=Kaido in speed. Shanks low diffs Kaido which contradicts the maga.

Shanks is not stronger than Kaido. Kaido after he fought Shanks said only Joyboy can beat him that means Kaido did not see Shanks as someone who was capable of beating him. He still said nobody can beat him even though Kaido fought Shanks.

In middle panel. Shanks also started moving to get One piece after Kaido and Big Mom died. Shanks cannot be stronger than Kaido.

If Kidd did not get speed boost then Luffy did not get speed boost too. No need to nitpick which one gets huge boost which one does not to suit your agenda.

So Shanks who 1 shot much stronger Kidd high diffs Big Mom who got stalemated by much weaker Kidd while Kaido needing 30 minutes to beat non FS Boundman, the form that lost to Cracker implies Kaido in act 1 can 1 shot Katakuri too despite Katakuri also low diffed Boundman like Kaido did. You cannot be more biased than this.

You might as well say Katakuri and Kaido are on the same tier because Kaido did not outperform Katakuri when Kaido was fighting Boundman while Shanks far outperformed Big Mom when Shanks was fighting Kidd since Shanks beat Kidd in less than 10 seconds. Big Mom cannot beat much weaker Kidd in less than 10 seconds.

There's no sneak attack. Kidd knew he was fighting Shanks. There's no a surprise attack when both fighters knew they were fighting each other.

I'm not talking about Kidd needing Law to beat Big Mom. I'm talking why Kidd without awakening can stalemate Big Mom while Kidd who got much faster after death fight with Big Mom and with awakening cannot last for 10 seconds against Shanks which makes powercreep does not make sense. It seems like a death fight with Big Mom did not make Kidd faster, more durable, physically stronger.

Because he had law to help him out that’s the difference lol he didn’t stalemate her that’s the point. Team battle is different from1v1 battles. let’s say I agree with ur logic
big mom isnt a speedster plus I do not get this speed argument sanji is faster than zoro doesn’t mean sanji=zoro. The kaido vs big mom fight we don’t know if they were going all out.
clearly when we actually saw feats from
Both yonkos kaido perform better than big mom therefore kaido>big mom.

Flawed logic because kaido actually oneshotted beginning wano luffy katakuri could never lol


lol somehow shanks was able to stop kaido from coming to marineford also he put shanks among the that was capable to beat him (WB,rocks.oden,Rogers,shanks). I said shanks might be stronger than kaido I’m just sure yet until we see some more feats. Imo shanks Divine departure is equivalent to-what Kaido did to luffy round 1.
I’m not saying Kidd didn’t know that he was fighting shanks he didn’t expect the attack to come from shanks because he was focus on blowing up the ships. So far shanks protrayal is higher than kaido

 

[BlackTiger]

Because he had law to help him out that’s the difference lol he didn’t stalemate her that’s the point. Team battle is different from1v1 battles. let’s say I agree with ur logic
big mom isnt a speedster plus I do not get this speed argument sanji is faster than zoro doesn’t mean sanji=zoro. The kaido vs big mom fight we don’t know if they were going all out.
clearly when we actually saw feats from
Both yonkos kaido perform better than big mom therefore kaido>big mom.

Flawed logic because kaido actually oneshotted beginning wano luffy katakuri could never lol


lol somehow shanks was able to stop kaido from coming to marineford also he put shanks among the that was capable to beat him (WB,rocks.oden,Rogers,shanks). I said shanks might be stronger than kaido I’m just sure yet until we see some more feats. Imo shanks Divine departure is equivalent to-what Kaido did to luffy round 1.
I’m not saying Kidd didn’t know that he was fighting shanks he didn’t expect the attack to come from shanks because he was focus on blowing up the ships. So far shanks protrayal is higher than kaido

Yes that's stalemate he held up Big Mom until Law came Kidd can keep up with Big Mom speed who fought Kaido for 3 days. Kidd then fought Big Mom to the death and got much stronger then got 1 shot by Shanks which throw powercreep argument to the bin.

Doesn't matter if Big Mom fought Kidd and Law. Kidd alone stalemated Big Mom until Law came to his aid. Kidd with awakening got 1 shot by Shanks. Big Mom fought Kidd and Law argument holds weight if Kidd did not stalemate Big Mom solo before Law came to his aid but that's not the case. Kidd ALONE stalemated Big Mom before Law came to his aid. That means Kidd can keep up with Big Mom speed who fought Kaido for 3 days.

Besides Shanks 1 shot Kidd and Killer. He 1 shot 2 SN while Big Mom lost to 2 weaker SN (weaker by virtue of powercreep). Shanks also did it in less than 10 seconds and if he did it to much faster Kidd, Kidd who was faster than Kidd who stalemated Big Mom who fought Kaido for 3 days then it shows Shanks>>>Kaido which contradicts the manga.

Kaido and Big Mom fought with the sky split they were portrayed equal no matter how hard you're trying to deny it. Big Mom keeping up with Kaido shows she can keep up with Kaido speed. Kidd kept up with Big Mom before Law came to his aid. No need to speculate because Oda made it clear Kaido is not on a different tier than Big Mom. Powercreep makes it like Shanks is on a different tier than Big Mom which make powercreep does not make sense.

"Both yonkos kaido perform better than big mom therefore kaido>big mom."
Not really Kaido needed 30 minutes to beat non FS Boundman, someon weaker than Cracker.

"Flawed logic because kaido actually oneshotted beginning wano luffy katakuri could never lol"
Kaido needed 30 minutes to beat non FS Boundman a mode weaker than Cracker. Katakuri did not need 30 minutes Boundman already ran away from him before 30 minutes.

And? Shanks 1 shot Kidd much stronger Kidd. Big Mom got stalemated by non awakening Kidd. Why doesn't this logic apply to Big Mom too? Why Shanks high diffs Big Mom despite Shanks 1 shot much stronger Kidd while Big Mom got stalemated by much weaker Kidd (by powercreep scaling) while Kaido low diffs Katakuri when Kaido needed 30 minutes to beat non FS Boundman the mode that lost to Cracker while Katakuri forced Boundman to run away. Kaido also used his Thunder Bagua his fastest attack and 1 of his strongest attack while Katakuri only used his basic awakening attack Power Mochi. Katakuri did not even use Buzzcut Mochi which outpaced Snakeman. Act 1 Kaido never showed speed to outpace Snakeman. You cannot be more biased than this.

Kaido did not outperform Katakuri. Kaido used Thunder Bagua against Boundmna needed 30 minutes. Katakuri used power mochi basic awakening attack to beat Boundman.

SHanks 1 shot much stronger Kidd something Big Mom could not do yet you said Shanks high diffs Big Mom which shows your bias.


"lol somehow shanks was able to stop kaido from coming to marineford also he put shanks among the that was capable to beat him (WB,rocks.oden,Rogers,shanks). I said shanks might be stronger than kaido I’m just sure yet until we see some more feats. Imo shanks Divine departure is equivalent to-what Kaido did to luffy round 1."

Those 5 are people capable of fighting him not people capable of beating him. Shanks cannot be stronger than Kaido since Kaido after fighting Shanks still said nobody can bet him.


"I’m not saying Kidd didn’t know that he was fighting shanks he didn’t expect the attack to come from shanks because he was focus on blowing up the ships. So far shanks protrayal is higher than kaido"

This seems like a desperate excuse. Kidd had CoO why cannot he detect Shanks? It's his own fault his CoO cannot detect him. He knew Shanks was among the people he was fighting in ELbaf. If someone moves so fast and appears behind you something you don't expect that does not mean that he sneak attacks you. It means he moves so fast that your reaction cannot keep up.

Kidd focusing his attack on Shanks won't boost his attack speed or reaction speed. WHen Kidd was charging his Railgun, Shanks
1. Was seeing the future
2. Was dashing to Kidd
3. Dealt Kamusari

Shanks did those 3 actions when Kidd was still charging his Railgun. It won't change the outcome whether Kidd focused his Railgun on Shanks or if he knew SHanks location. Shanks moved much faster than Kidd Railgun.

And if this was much stronger Kidd by powercreep scaling this makes Shanks>>Kaido which does not make sense.

So far shanks protrayal is higher than kaido

Looks like you don't have counter argument so you only repeated the same lines so I will also repeat what I told you.


Shanks is not stronger than Kaido. Kaido after he fought Shanks said only Joyboy can beat him that means Kaido did not see Shanks as someone who was capable of beating him. He still said nobody can beat him even though Kaido fought Shanks.

In middle panel. Shanks also started moving to get One piece after Kaido and Big Mom died. Shanks cannot be stronger than Kaido. Powercreep makes Shanks>Kaido which goes against the manga.

 

[kkck]

The bit about the "stalemate" between kid and big mom is as stupid as it is laughable. Kidd "stalemated" big mom for.... a moment? The cope is real lol.

 

[BlackTiger]

The bit about the "stalemate" between kid and big mom is as stupid as it is laughable. Kidd "stalemated" big mom for.... a moment? The cope is real lol.

He stalemated Big Mom until Law came to his aid. Much weaker Kidd lasted more than 10 seconds against Big Mom. Kidd needed Law because Kidd cannot damage Big Mom. Big Mom is physically more powerful than Kidd it wont change that Kidd's speed allowed him to stalemate Big Mom who was keeping up with Kaido's speed for 3 days.

How long did it take for Law to come to Kidd's aid? What makes you think Kidd cannot stalemate Big Mom for a longer period of time when by the time Law came to Kidd's aid, Kidd was still fresh he was not on the backfoot.


Much stronger Kidd after death fight with Big Mom by virtue of powerscaling that you kept preaching on lost to Shanks in less than 10 seconds.

 

[kkck]

He stalemated Big Mom until Law came to his aid. Much weaker Kidd lasted more than 10 seconds against Big Mom. Kidd needed Law because Kidd cannot damage Big Mom. Big Mom is physically more powerful than Kidd it wont change that Kidd's speed allowed him to stalemate Big Mom who was keeping up with Kaido's speed for 3 days.

How long did it take for Law to come to Kidd's aid? What makes you think Kidd cannot stalemate Big Mom for a longer period of time when by the time Law came to Kidd's aid, Kidd was still fresh he was not on the backfoot.


Much stronger Kidd after death fight with Big Mom by virtue of powerscaling that you kept preaching on lost to Shanks in less than 10 seconds.

This is all silly nonsense.

 

[BlackTiger]

This is all silly nonsense.

This is accurate. How long did it take for Law to come to Kid's aid? 1 minute? By the time Law came to Kidd's aid Kidd was still fresh he could stall Big Mom for a longer period of time. Big Mom still cannot beat non awakening Kidd. Meanwhile in less than 10 seconds Shanks 1 shot awakening Kidd.

Shouldn't that be accurate by your powercreep scaling? Who was stronger? Kidd who stalemated Big Mom before his death match with Big Mom or Elbaf Kidd after his death match with Big Mom? If you stick to powercreep scaling Elbaf Kidd should be much stronger than non awakening Kidd who stalemated Big Mom.

Shanks just shat on your powercreep scaling by 1 shot that much stronger Kidd in less than 10 seconds.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Now an interesting question for me is how Luffy vs Kizaru could go. The one thing that Kizaru has is offensive power to hit above his weight due to his logia and additionally his swordsmanship (seems pretty competent to go up against Rayleigh). Kizaru is super fast and can hit with piercing laser beams from a distance too. What I have no idea about is what Kizaru's haki feats will be like, since Admirals should be advanced users, what he will display is going to be interesting. I think Luffy will struggle a lot more than we anticipate even if he comes out on top.

 

[albertwv]

@BlackTiger, when you have a few people explaining to you how wrong you are, most likely is that you are wrong.
You are using the logic that has been overturned in the manga.
BM does not match Kaido in speed. At all. But you are too dense to see that.
Kaido vs BM is you're only reference to BM's speed. That is no way near concrete. Their fight was more of a sparring, if each other really wanted to kill each other then they would have gone all out but it seems they both didn't.
Now what we see in the rooftop and inside the skull dome is their true potential. Kaido is speedy while BM isn't.
Kidd did not stalemate BM, the word you are looking for is "stalled" . Kidd stalled BM for a few minutes but it wasn't anything special.

Please do not use the "victory" of Kid and Law vs BM to claim Kid or Law are Yonko level individually. Kid and Law had outside interference that assisted in BM's defeat.
Plus his awakening does not give him a power up or make him stronger, like you claim.
Shanks is fast, seen how he managed to jump from land several hundred meters to Kid's ship and knock him out clean.

Rooftop Kid is the same as Elbaf Kid, do not compare Kid's growth to Luffy's or to any of the Straw Hats. They are the exemption not the norm.

I’d like to see the fandom stop down playing gear 5. No kaido at full health cannot beat g5 he is simply out classed in terms of power and versatility. Gear 5 luffy was heavily damaged when he entered the state vs kaido. He was at the very least in twice as worse as shape as kaido. and he didn’t have any help in defeating kaido. Kaido at 30% couldn’t beat g5 luffy at 15%. How possibly could a 100% kaido beat a100% g5 luffy

Nah @johnellis you're wrong. 100% Kaido can defeat 100% Gear 5 Luffy in a true 1v1, no recovery no island floating, no gauntlet, no plot. If you can't see that then you are dense sorry not sorry.

Current Base Luffy with all advanced haki is far stronger than Ulti. I'd say he's as strong as current Sanji.

With G2 + G3, he's about as strong as current Zoro.

With G4, he's as strong as Big Mom or Oden.

With G5, he's as strong as or stronger than Kaido.

Though with G4 and G5, a time limit is involved.
Overall, I'd say Luffy is comprable to Oden and slightly stronger than Big Mom. And weaker than the high end top tiers like Kaido.

Woah what is up with the Sanji downplay. No way is Base Luffy the same as Sanji. Nope. Gear 2 Luffy is though,
G2 Luffy >/= Zolo > Sanji..
G4 >> Zolo > Sanji

I can see Zolo, Kata, King, and Marcos basically the YC1's, give G2 Luffy high difficulty.
Now G4 Luffy would low-mid diff.

I think G5 is low Admiral Level, safe to say. I dont think he can still defeat Kaido alone in a 1v1. Versus BM, idk, I could see G5 taking her down.

 

[john ellis]

@BlackTiger, when you have a few people explaining to you how wrong you are, most likely is that you are wrong.
You are using the logic that has been overturned in the manga.
BM does not match Kaido in speed. At all. But you are too dense to see that.
Kaido vs BM is you're only reference to BM's speed. That is no way near concrete. Their fight was more of a sparring, if each other really wanted to kill each other then they would have gone all out but it seems they both didn't.
Now what we see in the rooftop and inside the skull dome is their true potential. Kaido is speedy while BM isn't.
Kidd did not stalemate BM, the word you are looking for is "stalled" . Kidd stalled BM for a few minutes but it wasn't anything special.

Please do not use the "victory" of Kid and Law vs BM to claim Kid or Law are Yonko level individually. Kid and Law had outside interference that assisted in BM's defeat.
Plus his awakening does not give him a power up or make him stronger, like you claim.
Shanks is fast, seen how he managed to jump from land several hundred meters to Kid's ship and knock him out clean.

Rooftop Kid is the same as Elbaf Kid, do not compare Kid's growth to Luffy's or to any of the Straw Hats. They are the exemption not the norm.


Nah @johnellis you're wrong. 100% Kaido can defeat 100% Gear 5 Luffy in a true 1v1, no recovery no island floating, no gauntlet, no plot. If you can't see that then you are dense sorry not sorry.



Woah what is up with the Sanji downplay. No way is Base Luffy the same as Sanji. Nope. Gear 2 Luffy is though,
G2 Luffy >/= Zolo > Sanji..
G4 >> Zolo > Sanji

I can see Zolo, Kata, King, and Marcos basically the YC1's, give G2 Luffy high difficulty.
Now G4 Luffy would low-mid diff.

I think G5 is low Admiral Level, safe to say. I dont think he can still defeat Kaido alone in a 1v1. Versus BM, idk, I could see G5 taking her down.

How am I being dense kaidos prior fights were not important. It didn’t matter if kaido started the fight vs g4 luffy at 70%like kaido beats g4 luffy. All it proves it a 70% kaido can beat a g4 luffy. However a 30% kaido can’t beat a g5 15% luffy

 

[BlackTiger]

@BlackTiger, when you have a few people explaining to you how wrong you are, most likely is that you are wrong.
You are using the logic that has been overturned in the manga.
BM does not match Kaido in speed. At all. But you are too dense to see that.
Kaido vs BM is you're only reference to BM's speed. That is no way near concrete. Their fight was more of a sparring, if each other really wanted to kill each other then they would have gone all out but it seems they both didn't.
Now what we see in the rooftop and inside the skull dome is their true potential. Kaido is speedy while BM isn't.
Kidd did not stalemate BM, the word you are looking for is "stalled" . Kidd stalled BM for a few minutes but it wasn't anything special.

Please do not use the "victory" of Kid and Law vs BM to claim Kid or Law are Yonko level individually. Kid and Law had outside interference that assisted in BM's defeat.
Plus his awakening does not give him a power up or make him stronger, like you claim.
Shanks is fast, seen how he managed to jump from land several hundred meters to Kid's ship and knock him out clean.

Rooftop Kid is the same as Elbaf Kid, do not compare Kid's growth to Luffy's or to any of the Straw Hats. They are the exemption not the norm.

No I just refuse to think that base Luffy is as fast as WCI Snakeman that's your wishful thinking. Katakuri is already faster than Akainu through Jinbe. Base Luffy being as fast as Katakuri aka as fast as WCI Snakeman shows base Luffy is already faster much faster than Akainu. By the time Gear 5 Luffy fights Akainu, Oda won't have Gear 5 blitzes Akainu. Don't blame me that I disagree with your wishful thinking. You don't have the right to decide which one is right or which one is wrong when you without proof claimed base Luffy or Gear 2 current Luffy is as fast as WCI Snakeman.

BM matched Kaido speed when she was fighting him for 3 days. It does not matter if both didn't go all out. Non serious Big Mom matched non serious Kaido in speed and Kidd kept up with that which shows Kidd can keep up with Kaido nameless club swings.

How do you deduce that rooftop Kaido was speedy while rooftop Big Mom was not speedy when Big Mom rarely attacked on the rooftop? All SN got hit by her lightning attacks including Luffy. She was as fast as Kaido no matter how hard you're trying o hard to deny it.

I never claimed Kidd as yonko level. I said Kidd stalemated Big Mom before Law came to Kidd's aid. Kidd really stalemated Big Mom before Law came to his aid does not matter how many minutes. Kidd was still fresh by the time law came to his aid which shows Kidd could stall Big Mom for a longer period of time. By powercreepscaling Kidd got much stronger after death match with Big Mom then In less than 10 seconds he's done by 1 attack of Shanks which throws powercreep to the bin.

I did not say awakening gave Kidd a power up in all stats. I just disagreed that Kidd got physically much faster after his death fight with Big Mom because Shanks just 1 shot him like a bug he was. So I also disagreed with Luffy got physically much faster after his fight with Kaido. Gear 2 Luffy is still much slower than WCI Snakeman.

Kidd did not get much faster physically after his fight with Big Mom so no reason to assume Luffy also got much faster physically after his fight with Kaido. You're the only wrong person here. None of what you stated is from the manga. Claiming Gear 2 Luffy currently is as fast as WCI Snakeman Luffy is as dumb as claiming Monster Chopper currently is as fast as Dressrosa Gear 2 Luffy.

If you agree that Kidd did not get faster, then Luffy did not get faster too. No need to nitpick which one got faster which one did not get faster to suit your agenda.

Why cannot I compare SN growth and SH growth? Do you think rooftop Law was the same as Dressrosa Law? SH and SN all lost to pacifista. SN also grew with SH. SN started to become stronger. They did not lose to pacifista anymore. Drake beat Caribou a logia. Urouge beat Snack which shows his growth. The same happened in Wano. SH and SN growth are similar. If Kidd did not get faster then Luffy did not get faster too. The only boost they had was ap due to awakening.

What made Luffy way ahead of Kidd and Law was Luffy learnt advCoC which did not drain his stamina unlike Kidd and Law's awakening. Luffy's awakening was also far superior than Kidd and Law df awakening. Not only Luffy's awakening boosted his physical strength, it also boosted his physical durability too. Allowed to imagine while Kidd and Law awakening only boosted their ap but drastically drained their stamina too. Not that Luffy physical stats grew significantly while Kidd and Law physical stats did not grow at all.

Get off of your fucking high horse and stop acting all arrogant claiming my arguments are wrong while your arguments are right when you pulled those out of nothing.