One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
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• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[XXGenesis]

In retrospect. The attack is Wild ASF! Your head gets turned into a ballon and Fisted!!!! When Kaido fell over and got back up holding his face….I was like WTF that should have did more damage.

Kizaru’s overall stamina aside; His reaction was more in line for what I expected, a bonkers attack like that to feel like.

Geez, Luffy is punching through your head!! Lml Savage

 

[BlackTiger]

Fucked up or not Akainu was able to immediately move after taking a WB full power Gura Gura attack that literally split the island of Marinford in half. Remember Akainu was falling into the sea at that point and had to save himself. If Kizaru was over water in this current moment he would have died since he literally can't move after taking that G5 named attack to head.

The only excuse for me would be if we learn that Luffy's attack has a special after effect of paralyzing opponents in place. Since we saw stars fly out on impact it could be a secondary effect of the attack vs Kizaru's durability being the issue.

Since you said post Udon Luffy's base stats>>>pre Udon Luffy's base stats just for fighting a bunch of fodders in Udon, then shouldn't Egghead Gear 5 base stats>>>Wano Gear 5 base stats since in Wano Luffy fought Kaido pushing his body to his limit?

If we're using your arguments,

Kizaru Ap:
Wano Luffy tanked Kaido AcoC. In Egghead Luffy should be much more durable. Much more durable Luffy got hurt by Kizaru kick Luffy was screaming in pain that means Kizaru kick>>>ACoC Kaido.

Kizaru durability:
Egghead Luffy also should have much higher physical strength. In Wano Luffy and Kaido had equal clash. If Kizaru was stunned by Egghead Luffy ACoC punch (much stronger punch than Wano ACoC Luffy) then Kizaru should be able to tank ACoC from Kaido without being stunned.

So it's not that Kizaru's durability is bad. Egghead Gear 5 ap was just much higher than Wano Gear 5 ap. Wano Gear 5 Luffy was yonko tier now due to powercreep after Luffy fought Kaido pushing his body to his limit, Luffy was way above yonko level (since you said fighting a bunch of fodders in Udon made Luffy much faster than his WCI version so fighting Kaido pushing his body to his limit should make Luffy much faster).

At least be consistent with your arguments if you said Wano Snakeman speed>>>WCI Snakeman speed or Wano Luffy Future Sight>>>WCI Luffy Future Sight.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Since you said post Udon Luffy's base stats>>>pre Udon Luffy's base stats just for fighting a bunch of fodders in Udon, then shouldn't Egghead Gear 5 base stats>>>Wano Gear 5 base stats since in Wano Luffy fought Kaido pushing his body to his limit?

If we're using your arguments,

Kizaru Ap:
Wano Luffy tanked Kaido AcoC. In Egghead Luffy should be much more durable. Much more durable Luffy got hurt by Kizaru kick Luffy was screaming in pain that means Kizaru kick>>>ACoC Kaido.

Kizaru durability:
Egghead Luffy also should have much higher physical strength. In Wano Luffy and Kaido had equal clash. If Kizaru was stunned by Egghead Luffy ACoC punch (much stronger punch than Wano ACoC Luffy) then Kizaru should be able to tank ACoC from Kaido without being stunned.

So it's not that Kizaru's durability is bad. Egghead Gear 5 ap was just much higher than Wano Gear 5 ap. Wano Gear 5 Luffy was yonko tier now due to powercreep after Luffy fought Kaido pushing his body to his limit, Luffy was way above yonko level (since you said fighting a bunch of fodders in Udon made Luffy much faster than his WCI version so fighting Kaido pushing his body to his limit should make Luffy much faster).

At least be consistent with your arguments if you said Wano Snakeman speed>>>WCI Snakeman speed or Wano Luffy Future Sight>>>WCI Luffy Future Sight.

Your points are irrelevant to my argument since at the core of it all I'm saying that old WB in Marineford when angry > current G5 Luffy. If you agree with this then my above statement is the natural conclusion. if you don't agree with this then i'd say we don't really have the same assumptions so the rest of our points are just talking past each other.

 

[BlackTiger]

Your points are irrelevant to my argument since at the core of it all I'm saying that old WB in Marineford when angry > current G5 Luffy. If you agree with this then my above statement is the natural conclusion. if you don't agree with this then i'd say we don't really have the same assumptions so the rest of our points are just talking past each other.

How is Gear 5 ap<angry WB gura fist? Shouldn't Egghead Gear 5 ap>>>Wano Gear 5 ap because of powercreep? Wano Gear 5 knocked down Kaido. Egghead Gear 5 should deal even much more damage to Kaido. And you are saying much stronger Gear 5 ap<angry WB gura fist that Akainu tanked? Are you suggesting that Akainu has better durability than Kaido?

Unless Egghead Gear 5 is barely above Wano Gear 5 in base stats just like Wano Snakeman is barely above WCI Snakeman in stats except ap (due to advCoC and advCoA).

 

[Fox666]

Fucked up or not Akainu was able to immediately move after taking a WB full power Gura Gura attack that literally split the island of Marinford in half. Remember Akainu was falling into the sea at that point and had to save himself. If Kizaru was over water in this current moment he would have died since he literally can't move after taking that G5 named attack to head.

The only excuse for me would be if we learn that Luffy's attack has a special after effect of paralyzing opponents in place. Since we saw stars fly out on impact it could be a secondary effect of the attack vs Kizaru's durability being the issue.

You are overthinking it

Even in real life, sometimes you can get hit in the head and still walk, sometimes it will knock you out

 

[DeadlyBeast]

You are overthinking it

Even in real life, sometimes you can get hit in the head and still walk, sometimes it will knock you out

But this isn't real life...

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 27, 2023, Original Post Date: Oct 27, 2023 ---

How is Gear 5 ap<angry WB gura fist? Shouldn't Egghead Gear 5 ap>>>Wano Gear 5 ap because of powercreep? Wano Gear 5 knocked down Kaido. Egghead Gear 5 should deal even much more damage to Kaido. And you are saying much stronger Gear 5 ap<angry WB gura fist that Akainu tanked? Are you suggesting that Akainu has better durability than Kaido?

Unless Egghead Gear 5 is barely above Wano Gear 5 in base stats just like Wano Snakeman is barely above WCI Snakeman in stats except ap (due to advCoC and advCoA).

I don't personally agree. My view is that current G5 Luffy is still weaker than Prime WB. To me an angry old WB (like really angry in the case of Akainu killing Ace) is essentially fighting at Prime WB level but can't sustain it. You may/probably disagree with this so not much else to be said.

 

[Rein Avara]

Prime Whitebeard was comparable to Roger if not Stronger than him (being PK doesn't mean you're the strongest), Luffy is not at that level yet. He barely defeated a Kaido who fought 90% of the Alliances main fighters.

 

[kkck]

Yeah, I don't see luffy being capable of soloing a yonko at least until he masters his G5. Luffy took out kizaru but kizaru managed to run the clock on luffy's awakening... luffy at this point can fight on par with a yonko, just not long enough to actually win. WB, big mom, kaido or shanks just don't have timers on their full power.

 

[XXGenesis]

Yeah, I don't see luffy being capable of soloing a yonko at least until he masters his G5. Luffy took out kizaru but kizaru managed to run the clock on luffy's awakening... luffy at this point can fight on par with a yonko, just not long enough to actually win. WB, big mom, kaido or shanks just don't have timers on their full power.

Luffy fought with Kaido in G4 & base using his other gears…Kaido came out the winner of that fight, despite interference. His G5 wasn’t super dominate against Kaido but he won…

Oda is being inconsistent or Writing poorly. G5 should be his hold out ace; not his immediate go to.

 

[kkck]

Luffy fought with Kaido in G4 & base using his other gears…Kaido came out the winner of that fight, despite interference. His G5 wasn’t super dominate against Kaido but he won…

Oda is being inconsistent or Writing poorly. G5 should be his hold out ace; not his immediate go to.

Yeah, oda is not really consistent in how he writes that stuff. But it doesn't change that luffy fights with a time limit which puts him at a heavy disadvantage against yonko like fighters who are exceptionally durable. Even if luffy didn't use G5, his gear 4 has a pretty severe time limit as well. G4 luffy at the time could overpower doflamingo but pummeling him for the entirety of its duration was simply not enough. Luffy ran out of juice fighting kaido multiple times. G5 is somewhat more forgiving in this regard but not by a huge margin. And as we have seen, awakening becomes significantly less draining when mastered. Meanwhile it doesn't seem like the drawbacks of G4 are going away any time soon...

 

[Fox666]

But this isn't real life...

Yes, it's even less than consistent than real life

I don't personally agree. My view is that current G5 Luffy is still weaker than Prime WB. To me an angry old WB (like really angry in the case of Akainu killing Ace) is essentially fighting at Prime WB level but can't sustain it. You may/probably disagree with this so not much else to be said.

I think we are told precisely how age/disease affected Whitebeard: he has the same destructive power, but his movement or reflexes aren't nothing like before, as Marco explained when Squardo stabbed him

We see this in action against Akainu, he wrecked Akainu, but couldn't dodge his attacks

 

[Pirate Queen]

"You're not a clown, you're an entire circus" - me to anyone that doesn't think Luffy could solo Big Mom

 

[XXGenesis]

Yeah, oda is not really consistent in how he writes that stuff. But it doesn't change that luffy fights with a time limit which puts him at a heavy disadvantage against yonko like fighters who are exceptionally durable. Even if luffy didn't use G5, his gear 4 has a pretty severe time limit as well. G4 luffy at the time could overpower doflamingo but pummeling him for the entirety of its duration was simply not enough. Luffy ran out of juice fighting kaido multiple times. G5 is somewhat more forgiving in this regard but not by a huge margin. And as we have seen, awakening becomes significantly less draining when mastered. Meanwhile it doesn't seem like the drawbacks of G4 are going away any time soon...

Think you’re missing my point.

Luffy’s Trump cards are Time limit based. He’s not reliant on them. Luffy has always fought his opponents in his base form to various successful degree’s.

Luffy with all of his advanced Haki techniques doesn’t need to rush into G4 or G5; & Would still put the beats on any yonkou or admiral.

G4’s drawback is too detrimental to the level of fights now. Luffy has used the tactical retreat twice because of this. & G5 just seems to drain a lot of stamina.

 

[kkck]

Think you’re missing my point.

Luffy’s Trump cards are Time limit based. He’s not reliant on them. Luffy has always fought his opponents in his base form to various successful degree’s.

Luffy with all of his advanced Haki techniques doesn’t need to rush into G4 or G5; & Would still put the beats on any yonkou or admiral.

G4’s drawback is too detrimental to the level of fights now. Luffy has used the tactical retreat twice because of this. & G5 just seems to drain a lot of stamina.

How is luffy not reliant on said trump cards? Against doflamingo there was an entire chapter showing that gear 2 just tickled doflamingo and gear 3 was too slow to ever hit him. Next chapter we see gear 4 was faster than gear 2 and at least as strong, if not stronger, than gear 3. Against katakuri luffy won by a hair after pulling out snakeman. During the fight against kaido luffy ran out of juice or was taken out multiple times. Luffy can do pretty well even without gear 4 or 5 but ultimately he doesn't win fights against his stronger opponents at a given time without them. In part 1 it was the same deal but by part two he had gotten to the point where the drawbacks of gear 2 and 3 weren't issues anymore. There's no reason that over time the same thing can't happen to gear 4 and specially 5... Gear 4 should take luffy's haki pool increasing substantially and G5 probably would just require luffy getting used to it. People well weaker than luffy are able to casually use their awakenings after all.

 

[john ellis]

@kkck so with his devil fruit awakened g4 should have its time limit greatly extended. While it’s haki and DF based, his fight against kaido greatly increased his haki pool and his DF abilities. I think it’s frankly reverse plot armor to give luffy time limits so he just doesn’t spam g5 and always win. His haki pool and stamina should be comparable to other yonkos. Also g5 has hax vs durability. Like I don’t see how kaido or bm ever defeat g5. Unless the time limit is extremely short for plot reasons. He just spams durability bypassing moves and then just monkey god punches them. To which I think BM or kaido don’t have a counter for. BM could technically dodge however it looks hard to dodge.

also luffy is an awakened mythical zoan who’se name is based off a god. His durabillity and regeneration of stamina is excellent. also inherited Will’s play an important part of one piece, and luffy simply has the will to always win. After taking down his opponents he loses the will to battle and that’s why he’s always tired but he won’t give up while the battle is going rwguardless of stamina issues.

 

[BlackTiger]

While it’s haki and DF based, his fight against kaido greatly increased his haki pool and his DF abilities.

Damn so Egghead Luffy>>>Wano Luffy because Egghead Luffy has much bigger haki pool than Wano luffy therefore making Kizaru>>>Kaido. I didn't know that.

That means after Egghead fighting Kizaru which pushes Luffy body's to his limit, Luffy's haki pool would be even bigger which makes Kaido fodder to Akainu if that Luffy has an extreme diff fight with Akainu therefore making Oda sbs about Kaido and Akainu redundant

 

[john ellis]

Damn so Egghead Luffy>>>Wano Luffy because Egghead Luffy has much bigger haki pool than Wano luffy therefore making Kizaru>>>Kaido. I didn't know that.

That means after Egghead fighting Kizaru which pushes Luffy body's to his limit, Luffy's haki pool would be even bigger which makes Kaido fodder to Akainu if that Luffy has an extreme diff fight with Akainu therefore making Oda sbs about Kaido and Akainu redundant

Post roof top luffy=egghead island. Kaido got extreme diff’d egghead luffy. Kizaru got high diff’d which is in line for the admirals being slightly weaker. Like luffy got help vs kaido. I’d argue he wouldn’t need it if he were to fight again. However that’s only true for his post roof top form. Which kaido only fought against that form some of the time. Luffy has 4 different forms vs kaido in wano.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Yes, it's even less than consistent than real life

That's definitely true!

I think we are told precisely how age/disease affected Whitebeard: he has the same destructive power, but his movement or reflexes aren't nothing like before, as Marco explained when Squardo stabbed him

We see this in action against Akainu, he wrecked Akainu, but couldn't dodge his attacks

Yep this is pretty much what I was thinking. Like old sick WB still was capable of outputting his prime level strength in short bursts, especially when angered but couldn't sustain it. Also seemed worse for wear on reacting to attacks or even sensing them tbh. Still surprised to this day that he got stabbed by Squardo without even noticing.

 

[kkck]

@kkck so with his devil fruit awakened g4 should have its time limit greatly extended. While it’s haki and DF based, his fight against kaido greatly increased his haki pool and his DF abilities. I think it’s frankly reverse plot armor to give luffy time limits so he just doesn’t spam g5 and always win. His haki pool and stamina should be comparable to other yonkos. Also g5 has hax vs durability. Like I don’t see how kaido or bm ever defeat g5. Unless the time limit is extremely short for plot reasons. He just spams durability bypassing moves and then just monkey god punches them. To which I think BM or kaido don’t have a counter for. BM could technically dodge however it looks hard to dodge.

also luffy is an awakened mythical zoan who’se name is based off a god. His durabillity and regeneration of stamina is excellent. also inherited Will’s play an important part of one piece, and luffy simply has the will to always win. After taking down his opponents he loses the will to battle and that’s why he’s always tired but he won’t give up while the battle is going rwguardless of stamina issues.

I don't see any reason for awakening to extend the limit on G4. As far as I can tell there's no connection. i don't doubt that luffy's haki pool has increased dramatically though. And from a plot perspective it's probably the case that it's to not make luffy as overpowering as a yonko. Otherwise right now he'd have defeated kizaru and be good to go against saturn.

As far as current luffy vs kaido or big mom, i don't agree. If kizaru could run the clock on luffy's awakening (even if its the second one) then at a minimum kaido, a mythical dragon zoan, and big mon (who has the ability to heal at the expense of her lifespan) should be able to easily outlast luffy even if luffy is completely fresh. I don't think luffy has moves which bypass durability. with cladding he is simply on even footing with kaido and big mom and both are still monsters. Kaido ate luffy's attacks with internal damage and cladding for a pretty long while. He even mostly ignored law's gamma knife...

The framing in the story is usually that zoans have enhanced durability/stamina/recovery though I am not convinced that human zoans share that trait. Luffy has a fair bit of resistance to blunt damage (and I'd still argue that he should handle cutting attacks better than non rubber folk) but he doesn't seem to recover as quickly as some zoans we have seen (though meat has usually completely restored him).

In terms of haki I'd say luffy is still probably inferior to the other yonko. Shanks got aramaki to back off simply by using his monstrous haki which isn't something i see happening for luffy. Luffy is ultimately heavily reliant on his fruit so it tracks that the yonko would have an edge over him here for now. Shanks probably has an edge over the other yonko considering his lack of a fruit. IMO it'd be hard for shanks to hold his own against the others if he is merely equal to them in terms of haki, he needs an edge at least in terms of skill here.

 

[BlackTiger]

Post roof top luffy=egghead island. Kaido got extreme diff’d egghead luffy. Kizaru got high diff’d which is in line for the admirals being slightly weaker. Like luffy got help vs kaido. I’d argue he wouldn’t need it if he were to fight again. However that’s only true for his post roof top form. Which kaido only fought against that form some of the time. Luffy has 4 different forms vs kaido in wano.

Then post Udon Luffy=pre Udon Luffy except in ap (thanks to advCoA) since Luffy only fought a bunch of fodders in Udon. Post Udon Snakeman blitzing Kaido means pre Udon or WCI Snakeman can blitz Kaido too therefore Katakuri who outpaced WCI Snakeman can also blitz Kaido. Kaido needs a lucky shot to beat Katakuri.