One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[kkck]

To me it's a bit of a reach that at least initially kizaru didn't have his heart in the fight. He definitely hesitated later IMO but fighting a yonko is pretty much his job description.

 

[Pirate Queen]

To me it's a bit of a reach that at least initially kizaru didn't have his heart in the fight. He definitely hesitated later IMO but fighting a yonko is pretty much his job description.

And that initial bout I think favored Luffy in the sense that while Luffy knocked Kizaru out for a bit, Luffy was taken out by his timer. It wasn't anything Kizaru did that incapacited Luffy.

I think instead of these time limits Oda should transition into Luffy and Kizaru fighting in the background. It would free up the plot to do other things and all he would have to do is have other comments make quick remarks about the state of the fight. Oda didn't have to incapacitate them both

 

[kkck]

And that initial bout I think favored Luffy in the sense that while Luffy knocked Kizaru out for a bit, Luffy was taken out by his timer. It wasn't anything Kizaru did that incapacited Luffy.

I think instead of these time limits Oda should transition into Luffy and Kizaru fighting in the background. It would free up the plot to do other things and all he would have to do is have other comments make quick remarks about the state of the fight. Oda didn't have to incapacitate them both

I agree in that that is how it played out. I am guessing that luffy fully growing into his awakening won't be that far off since there's an honest to god horde of apparently admiral or higher level enemies at the gate. And of course luffy without a time limit gets REALLY threatening. You have the gorosei who have some degree of immortality, imu who likely is also immortal, the royal knights who seem powerful enough for the revolutionaries to see them as a significant threat... I don't think all of them will be admiral level but I do expect at least a couple fighters like that there. 4 admirals as well... There will definitely be more folk on the strawhat side but in a long conflict like the one that is coming you need not only luffy to fit into his yonko shoes but also zoro and maybe even sanji to be on the safe side.

nah, offscreen fights are probably one of the weaknesses of the new world saga. Let alone the insanity of off screening something as big as a fight between newly minted yonko luffy and the most senior current admiral. I'll take luffy's soft win over kizaru over a more decisive off screen win any day at least.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I agree in that that is how it played out. I am guessing that luffy fully growing into his awakening won't be that far off since there's an honest to god horde of apparently admiral or higher level enemies at the gate. And of course luffy without a time limit gets REALLY threatening. You have the gorosei who have some degree of immortality, imu who likely is also immortal, the royal knights who seem powerful enough for the revolutionaries to see them as a significant threat... I don't think all of them will be admiral level but I do expect at least a couple fighters like that there. 4 admirals as well... There will definitely be more folk on the strawhat side but in a long conflict like the one that is coming you need not only luffy to fit into his yonko shoes but also zoro and maybe even sanji to be on the safe side.

nah, offscreen fights are probably one of the weaknesses of the new world saga. Let alone the insanity of off screening something as big as a fight between newly minted yonko luffy and the most senior current admiral. I'll take luffy's soft win over kizaru over a more decisive off screen win any day at least.

It's just silly that Oda introduces 5 day long fights, ten day long fights, and we get 5-10 minute bouts lol like damn it.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

It's just silly that Oda introduces 5 day long fights, ten day long fights, and we get 5-10 minute bouts lol like damn it.

I think those long fights are one of the worst things introduced to OP fighting. It just doesn't make sense for fights to be long when they are to the death. A sports fight with rules etc I can understand but if two people are trying to off each other the fight can only last as long as it takes one of them to land a real hit on the other.

One of the weirdest things with the Katakuri fight to me was how long Luffy took a beating without losing while it took far less to take Katakuri out once his attacks started landing. Makes it seem like the fatigue that Kata got beating the shit out of Luffy is somehow equivalent to Luffy taking the beating itself

 

[Pirate Queen]

I think those long fights are one of the worst things introduced to OP fighting. It just doesn't make sense for fights to be long when they are to the death. A sports fight with rules etc I can understand but if two people are trying to off each other the fight can only last as long as it takes one of them to land a real hit on the other.

One of the weirdest things with the Katakuri fight to me was how long Luffy took a beating without losing while it took far less to take Katakuri out once his attacks started landing. Makes it seem like the fatigue that Kata got beating the shit out of Luffy is somehow equivalent to Luffy taking the beating itself

Or Luffy began hitting much harder than Katakuri

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Or Luffy began hitting much harder than Katakuri

That's definitely an alternate possibility. Less insulting of Katakur's durability but would be much more wtf on Luffy's power creep that arc.

 

[Pirate Queen]

That's definitely an alternate possibility. Less insulting of Katakur's durability but would be much more wtf on Luffy's power creep that arc.

And I am still a firm believer that Katakuri's "Block Mochi" was an advanced form of ACoA that was specialized just for Katakuri

In the same way that Sanji's CoO is unique to him

 

[DeadlyBeast]

And I am still a firm believer that Katakuri's "Block Mochi" was an advanced form of ACoA that was specialized just for Katakuri

In the same way that Sanji's CoO is unique to him

It definitely would make sense that block mochi was aCoA. Guessing it would be the standard advanced level vs the internal destruction level. There really is no way Luffy should have won that fight. At least with Kaido he had several power ups prior and some insane power ups during but with Kata it was just gaining partial ability to see into the future. Sad to see what Kata has become post that arc getting knocked out by Caesar like that despite his FS.

 

[kkck]

And I am still a firm believer that Katakuri's "Block Mochi" was an advanced form of ACoA that was specialized just for Katakuri

In the same way that Sanji's CoO is unique to him

A bit the story has not yet explained is why at times hardening takes on a different hue along with a flame like pattern. Katakuri had that at times and luffy has that when using gear 4. I figured block mochi was more about katakuri using his power to create a stronger structure than his regular arm and by extension punch harder. Katakuri had a few moves that seemed to revolve around using haki to further manipulate his body much like how luffy uses his haki to adjust his elasticity.

Hmmm, to me it's a bit of a reach that sanji's observation haki is unique to him. To me he just looks exceptionally good at the basics without stepping into advanced territory.

 

[Rein Avara]

That's definitely an alternate possibility. Less insulting of Katakur's durability but would be much more wtf on Luffy's power creep that arc.

How does one increase their durability if they've supposedly never been hit or lost a fight, Katakuri knew how to block, counter and intercept attacks but the few times Luffy did land hits on him he was rather shaken up.

 

[Pirate Queen]

It definitely would make sense that block mochi was aCoA. Guessing it would be the standard advanced level vs the internal destruction level. There really is no way Luffy should have won that fight. At least with Kaido he had several power ups prior and some insane power ups during but with Kata it was just gaining partial ability to see into the future. Sad to see what Kata has become post that arc getting knocked out by Caesar like that despite his FS.

And I know this is probably kicking a hornets nest but Katakuri's utilization of ACoA, ACoO, CoC, Awakening, and his DF versatility is why I place Katakuri comfortably over King in the YC1 discussions

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 4, 2024, Original Post Date: Apr 4, 2024 ---

A bit the story has not yet explained is why at times hardening takes on a different hue along with a flame like pattern. Katakuri had that at times and luffy has that when using gear 4. I figured block mochi was more about katakuri using his power to create a stronger structure than his regular arm and by extension punch harder. Katakuri had a few moves that seemed to revolve around using haki to further manipulate his body much like how luffy uses his haki to adjust his elasticity.

Hmmm, to me it's a bit of a reach that sanji's observation haki is unique to him. To me he just looks exceptionally good at the basics without stepping into advanced territory.

Well we've seen CoO take on unique characteristics.

1. You can see into the future (Shanks etc)
2. The enhanced sight distance (Ussop)
3. Women in danger focus (Sanji)

So I do think Haki can take on specialized characteristics when you train hard enough in that one aspect.

 

[kkck]

Well we've seen CoO take on unique characteristics.

1. You can see into the future (Shanks etc)
2. The enhanced sight distance (Ussop)
3. Women in danger focus (Sanji)

So I do think Haki can take on specialized characteristics when you train hard enough in that one aspect.

I don't think the bit with ussop is enhanced sight. he simply detected his target from a long distance. Futuresight is definitely an advanced application that has been overtly framed as such in the story. As far as I can tell observation haki related abilities and stages are more or less like this:

1.- Detecting/feeling people. We have seen this a lot of times. Coby at marineford, ussop at dressrosa, probably what fujitora uses to "see".
2.- Anticipating/predicting attacks. The most common application.
3.- Futuresight, the advanced form of the previous. But there's more to it since users can anticipate things unrelated to living beings.
4.- Detecting emotions.
5.- Sensing power levels. Rayleigh was able to use it to estimate the strength of creatures at the island where he trained luffy.

I don't think we have seen any instance of observation haki that falls outside of that. It's difficult to imagine some of those even having advanced applications. I think detecting people, emotions and strength is more or less connected but different people can have vaying skills at each. Going a bit into unhinged speculation territory maybe futuresight the result of combining all the basic haki abilities to generate an image of what's likely going to happen

 

[Pirate Queen]

I don't think the bit with ussop is enhanced sight. he simply detected his target from a long distance. Futuresight is definitely an advanced application that has been overtly framed as such in the story. As far as I can tell observation haki related abilities and stages are more or less like this:

1.- Detecting/feeling people. We have seen this a lot of times. Coby at marineford, ussop at dressrosa, probably what fujitora uses to "see".
2.- Anticipating/predicting attacks. The most common application.
3.- Futuresight, the advanced form of the previous. But there's more to it since users can anticipate things unrelated to living beings.
4.- Detecting emotions.
5.- Sensing power levels. Rayleigh was able to use it to estimate the strength of creatures at the island where he trained luffy.

I don't think we have seen any instance of observation haki that falls outside of that. It's difficult to imagine some of those even having advanced applications. I think detecting people, emotions and strength is more or less connected but different people can have vaying skills at each. Going a bit into unhinged speculation territory maybe futuresight the result of combining all the basic haki abilities to generate an image of what's likely going to happen

I guess it can be broken down as either a "Advanced Application of haki" vs "a unique application of 1 aspect that haki gives you, that you master"

I could imagine sensing emotions with CoO is much less important that sensing your target from outside your field of vision.

 

[HereNThere]

And I am still a firm believer that Katakuri's "Block Mochi" was an advanced form of ACoA that was specialized just for Katakuri

It definitely would make sense that block mochi was aCoA. Guessing it would be the standard advanced level vs the internal destruction level.

The argument most certainly could be made.

Spoiler: Chapter 883

Spoiler: Chapter 1009

Feels intentional, imo.

There really is no way Luffy should have won that fight. At least with Kaido he had several power ups prior and some insane power ups during but with Kata it was just gaining partial ability to see into the future. Sad to see what Kata has become post that arc getting knocked out by Caesar like that despite his FS.

Truth be told, I do think Oda had Luffy skip a couple levels to make sure he was in decent enough spot for Wano. Katakuri was one of the first times I thought "this feels a bit unearned" and was all in on the Katakuri let Luffy win train.

I don't think we have seen any instance of observation haki that falls outside of that. It's difficult to imagine some of those even having advanced applications. I think detecting people, emotions and strength is more or less connected but different people can have vaying skills at each. Going a bit into unhinged speculation territory maybe futuresight the result of combining all the basic haki abilities to generate an image of what's likely going to happen

Yeah, Rayleigh does state that there are those who are tuned to certain skills within CoO, but they all seem pretty much related. Perhaps some traits imply deeper aptitude, such as sensing of emotions, which leads to FS, but I don't think there is anyone can do anything particularly unique within the confines of the basic CoO abilities.

Usopp, I would say, specializes in sensing presence, but he just has a crazy amount of range with what he can perceive. We already know that Luffy is attuned to the emotions of living things according to Rayleigh. Sanji appears to follow that same path, though he's only tuned to women.

 

[kkck]

Yeah, Rayleigh does state that there are those who are tuned to certain skills within CoO, but they all seem pretty much related. Perhaps some traits imply deeper aptitude, such as sensing of emotions, which leads to FS, but I don't think there is anyone can do anything particularly unique within the confines of the basic CoO abilities.

Usopp, I would say, specializes in sensing presence, but he just has a crazy amount of range with what he can perceive. We already know that Luffy is attuned to the emotions of living things according to Rayleigh. Sanji appears to follow that same path, though he's only tuned to women.

To me the bit that stands out about sanji is that in spite of lacking foresight his reactions seem almost foresight like. They seem... precise, clean, instantaneous. Like when he dodged katakuri's finger bullet thingy. For sanji it was just a dodge but katakuri was shocked that he missed even though he can see the future. Other characters make more overt use of observation haki but with sanji what we get is consistent yet seemingly low key amazing use of it even in the absence of proper fights.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 4, 2024, Original Post Date: Apr 4, 2024 ---

Looking back a bit on sanji... back in the day he was able to walk out of his bubble when at fishman island and survive the sheer pressure water exerts that deep. I wonder if perhaps his genetics played some part in this. By then the implication was that sanji shouldn't be able to survive that yet he did. And of course now his exoskeleton would be substantially more durable. I wouldn't be surprised if sanji can hold his breath from the surface all the way to fishman island. 10 kms shouldn't be too much of a hurdle to swim through.

 

[Pirate Queen]

To me the bit that stands out about sanji is that in spite of lacking foresight his reactions seem almost foresight like. They seem... precise, clean, instantaneous. Like when he dodged katakuri's finger bullet thingy. For sanji it was just a dodge but katakuri was shocked that he missed even though he can see the future. Other characters make more overt use of observation haki but with sanji what we get is consistent yet seemingly low key amazing use of it even in the absence of proper fights.

This one also got me because it felt to me like more of a speed feat than a CoO feat. Sanji was just too fast for future Katakuri saw to occur

 

[HereNThere]

To me the bit that stands out about sanji is that in spite of lacking foresight his reactions seem almost foresight like. They seem... precise, clean, instantaneous. Like when he dodged katakuri's finger bullet thingy. For sanji it was just a dodge but katakuri was shocked that he missed even though he can see the future. Other characters make more overt use of observation haki but with sanji what we get is consistent yet seemingly low key amazing use of it even in the absence of proper fights.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 4, 2024, Original Post Date: Apr 4, 2024 ---

Looking back a bit on sanji... back in the day he was able to walk out of his bubble when at fishman island and survive the sheer pressure water exerts that deep. I wonder if perhaps his genetics played some part in this. By then the implication was that sanji shouldn't be able to survive that yet he did. And of course now his exoskeleton would be substantially more durable. I wouldn't be surprised if sanji can hold his breath from the surface all the way to fishman island. 10 kms shouldn't be too much of a hurdle to swim through.

Sanji's feats have always been a bit low-key when it comes to time-skip stuff. I remember talking about it prior to Wano. Oda always gave him bit and pieces to imply that he was still keeping up, while not giving him any major fight. It was odd. Like, as cool as the Katakuri moment is, what was Oda going for? It was hype for Sanji, but he never followed up on it.

Nah, it couldn't have. Sanji's Birthright only came into play after he put the Raid Suit on. I think that moment was to just demonstrate how far the Monster Trio had developed physically. Even that deep underwater, they were still crazy strong.

 

[kkck]

This one also got me because it felt to me like more of a speed feat than a CoO feat. Sanji was just too fast for future Katakuri saw to occur

Sanji is fast but it's probably a stretch that he was in any way faster than katakuri. Though it is worth noting oda does not handle speed consistently or even well. Sanji didn't even move from his spot when he dodged the attack, I'd argue that's pretty clearly an observation haki feat.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Sanji's feats have always been a bit low-key when it comes to time-skip stuff. I remember talking about it prior to Wano. Oda always gave him bit and pieces to imply that he was still keeping up, while not giving him any major fight. It was odd. Like, as cool as the Katakuri moment is, what was Oda going for? It was hype for Sanji, but he never followed up on it.

Nah, it couldn't have. Sanji's Birthright only came into play after he put the Raid Suit on. I think that moment was to just demonstrate how far the Monster Trio had developed physically.

Yeah Sanji is such an enigma.

Reading egghead weekly makes Sanji look so ridiculous but when you go back and read it through in one go you actually see he is legit in the standing for MVP of the Arc. He's doing everything, even ordering the Giants to go grab Luffy and take I'm to their ship. He really does know how to take command of a situation despite him constantly acting like he is in distress and on top of that he had probably one of the coolest lines of any crew member besides Luffy