Archived Philosophy Thread

[Predator]

Well, there are so many intelligent members in this forum, I just couldn't hold back.
As you might have suspected, I like philosophy quite a lot.
IMO, Philosophy = Fun + Wisdom + Ideas + Opinion

This is a thread to share your philosophical ideas, idioms, ironic phrases, creeds aso.aso.

Enjoy



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I'll start with some classic taglines:

# Nothing is so simple that it can't get screwed up.
# If you can't make it good, make it big.
# If it isn't borken, don't fix it.
# Do not believe in miracles. Rely on them.
# Gravity doesn`t exist: the earth sucks.
# He who steps on others to reach the top has good balance.
# The best revenge in this world is to forgive.
# Assassination is an extreme form of censorship.

 

[The Boff]

#everything that has a possibility to fuck up, will without a doubt fuck up.
#If you drop a sandwich it always lands with the butter down.

and then i couldnt think of any more.....

 

[walkie]

#doing right things are more important than doing things right

this is a quote from someone else i dont remember his name now, someone from history but i like that so i wanted to share it

 

[Gold Knight]

This probably should be known as The Adage thread or something, I was expecting something a little different ( like a discussion about the meaning of life XD )

And boffenjl, that was an interesting variation of Murphy's Law, heh.

 

[xallisto]

How about Rene Descartes 'I Think Therefore i am'

anyone care to discuss this subject.

to cut a very long story short Rene Descartes decied one day that he would not make any assumptions nor would he rely on any fact that had been based on assumptious foundation.

Eventueally he came to the conclusion that all fact is eventually based on assumption. and the only true fact that could not possibey be based on assumption is that he Exists, he is alble to think therefore he must exist, and he wrote the quote ' i think therefore i am' its the defintion of existence.

of course this got me thinking about other unrelated stuff.

ill pass a question on to all of you now, if you robbed a person of all of his senses. would he be able to tell if he's alive or dead?

of course this brings introspection into the equation since intro spection is based on the senses, how would it eveolve to fit a senseless evriroment?

 

[overjojojojo]

unless you consider thought a sense, then yes, he could tell if he was still alive if i robbed him of all his senses...
sight, hearing, taste, smell, touch...

 

[xallisto]

ok ill ask another question, what the difference between that and being dead?

 

[Predator]

This probably should be known as The Adage thread or something, I was expecting something a little different ( like a discussion about the meaning of life XD )

And boffenjl, that was an interesting variation of Murphy's Law, heh.

Not at all GK. You see this is a place I made for members to express their ideas and thoughts and discuss them with others. Those taglines were a warmup session. Just to get people in the right mood. Meaning of life will follow.

@xallisto
Even if you steal all the senses a man still has his life and mind. He has memories and he can live inside them for the rest of his short life (no food and moisture whatsoever -> make conclusions). That's how the idea of existance kicks in. At the same time, being unable to sense things equals being unable to interact with them. That's as good as being dead. IMO the full sentence might be "I think therefore I am, I influence therefore I live".

And a few good taglines:

# Confession is good for the soul, but bad for your career.
# Wisdom is knowing what to do with what you know.
# Fortune truly helps those who are of good judgment.

 

[Bibichan]

I think the sentence "I think therefore I am, I influence therefore I live" is more commenly used in the shortened version xallisto used. The Latin term would be "cogito ergo sum", if anyone's interested.

To stay with Latin, I personally like "Carpe diem" very much. "Seize the day". To me, this is exactly how you should approach life. Every day is special, if you regard it as special. You have to life in the here and now, not in the past, because you can't change the past. What's done, is done. If you made bad experiences in the past, just forget about them and life every day as if it were your first and last.

 

[Predator]

"Cogito ergo sum" is a commonspread Latin phrase. Everyone knows it, but why do you think I lenghtened the sentence? It was on purpose.
"C.e.s." is used as "I sense therefore I am".
My idea is "Cogito ergo sum, Operatio ergo vivere"

Speaking of knowing the difference between senselesness and death... there is just one. Unless the substance called soul exists. Then there are two. In the soul case the soul is unchained once the body dies. In the senseless state you can use your brain and have your mind, imagination and memories.

# "Scientists don't die, they just smell that way"

 

[overjojojojo]

ok ill ask another question, what the difference between that and being dead?

difference between having no senses and being dead? well... if you lived your life dedicated to the lord, then you'd be in heaven, and im pretty sure you'd be given everything back since its a realm of complete contentness...
and if you werent a servent of the lord, then you'd be in hell, which is a realm of eternal suffering... i think you'd get your senses back for that as well as to enhance the suffering...

of course all that is just how I think things would be...[br]Posted at: March 19, 2006, 10:24:38 AM_________________________________________________

I think the sentence "I think therefore I am, I influence therefore I live" is more commenly used in the shortened version xallisto used. The Latin term would be "cogito ergo sum", if anyone's interested.

To stay with Latin, I personally like "Carpe diem" very much. "Seize the day". To me, this is exactly how you should approach life. Every day is special, if you regard it as special. You have to life in the here and now, not in the past, because you can't change the past. What's done, is done. If you made bad experiences in the past, just forget about them and life every day as if it were your first and last.

I like that and completely agree... if something happened in the past, all you can do is remember it, and learn from it... dwelling on it or regretting it will not do anything... i also have always believed that EVERYTHING happens for a reason... its the will of god so to speak... like you look back... reflect on past events and their outcomes, i just see it as all is as it was meant to be... and i also believe that good always comes out of something bad... even if its some miniscule effect... its still positive...

 

[Predator]

OK, if we staer thinking about senses and experiences..
Which is better? Living a carefull, but long life seeing many things or living a wild life, experiencing many things in a short time and dying in a young age?

That's closely related to what we spoke of in the posts above, but in a different context. IMO, living a quiet life is the same as living senseless. That's rather existance, not living.

# "Don't ask me, I just work here."

 

[xallisto]

I think that experiances arnt worth anything if you dont learn anything from them, least of all learn to take life seriously and enjoy and savour it. take it nice and easy, theres absolutly no rush.

 

[Predator]

I think that experiances arnt worth anything if you dont learn anything from them, least of all learn to take life seriously and enjoy and savour it. take it nice and easy, theres absolutly no rush.

Then how would you justify sky-diving and bungee jumping. Do you really learn something through them? It's just a way of exciting oneself. Even wise people jump, just to get some rush. The sense that usually comes to you on the verge of death. It's an activity of fooling the senses and mind prepares for death. What do you think?

 

[Anax]

I wonder what what is the meaning of this discussion, what is the topic, what is the goal, what is the point? From my point of view it's an open discussion, left to be taken where "the stream" takes it (one of those I like), where each of us shares their opinions on whatever has been said for the others to see, contemplate upon and generally do what they like with. Personally I really like to see other opinions and constantly evolve my own. Why? Because it feels good!

Through bangee jumping you get to see what it's like to fall from a high place. You get to see how your body would react to imminent death. These things alone are educative enough in my opinion. To get close to death, I wonder how much that could affect a person view of life... I'm not trying to prove that people bangee jump for those reasons, I guess most of them do it for the rush, still, it IS an educative experience.

Concerning the similarity of any state with death, I'll say we can't know. We haven't died, we can't talk to the dead and if we could, we still wouldn't know how the state of death has altered their perception. In the end, what event isn't affected by the observer? Even if two or more people here agree, will they truly be having the same opinion on the same matter? Can two opinions ever be the same? Can a word ever be perceived exactly the same by two people?

Even if you steal all the senses a man still has his life and mind. He has memories and he can live inside them for the rest of his short life (no food and moisture whatsoever -> make conclusions). That's how the idea of existance kicks in. At the same time, being unable to sense things equals being unable to interact with them.

Does being senseless mean you're definately going to die? Can't a person be in a state of comma in a hospital, feeling nothing, but still being alive because others keep him? Also, couldn't a completely senseless but also "healthy" person be kept alive? I think they could.
Now, does being senseless equal being unable to interact with anything? A senseless person could be lying flat, rolling downhill, drowning in a lake, getting stabbed by another person who's purpose in life is to serve as an example in my post, or anything else your twisted imagination can come up with, and still that person wouldn't know the difference! They could be moving their hands frantically to test their functionality, but they wouldn't be getting any signal back from their hands so they wouldn't know if their hands did move...
What I'm trying to say here is that being senseless doesn't equal inability of interaction nor does it lead to certain death.

Which is better? Living a carefull, but long life seeing many things or living a wild life, experiencing many things in a short time and dying in a young age?

That's closely related to what we spoke of in the posts above, but in a different context. IMO, living a quiet life is the same as living senseless. That's rather existance, not living.

What is "better" than what and with what criteria? What is the goal you are planning to achieve that one or the other would help you achieve in a "better" (= more eficient) way?

Seeing things from my point of view there's no reason or meaning to life. You can make what you want out of it. Personally I generally lead "a quiet life" with the occasional "outburst". Am I somewhere between existance and life? What is the difference between existing and living?

Hmm... I'd like to see Crimson's "out of the box" opinions too... Where are you Crimson?!

 

[Predator]

I wonder what what is the meaning of this discussion, what is the topic, what is the goal, what is the point? From my point of view it's an open discussion, left to be taken where "the stream" takes it (one of those I like), where each of us shares their opinions on whatever has been said for the others to see, contemplate upon and generally do what they like with. Personally I really like to see other opinions and constantly evolve my own. Why? Because it feels good!

Well, you're quite right. Mainly, this is a place to talk about ideas of a higher plane, but at the same time it can serve as a location, where some "off topic" discussions can be redirected ("to keep things organized" as someone [cough] GK [/cough] has said).

What I'm trying to say here is that being senseless doesn't equal inability of interaction nor does it lead to certain death.

But is that "interaction"? That's a one sided influence with no response or benefit to one of the sides involved. And as much as I've learned about coma, people sense things in that state. So the senseless state mentioned above is completely hipotethical.

Personally I generally lead "a quiet life" with the occasional "outburst".
...
Hmm... I'd like to see Crimson's "out of the box" opinions too... Where are you Crimson?!

That would be great indeed. Come to think of it: "Quiet life", "Out of the box", "Balance"....
Fantastic, how many different views we have here. We must create MH-UN somewhere.

 

[Bibichan]

"Cogito ergo sum" is a commonspread Latin phrase. Everyone knows it, but why do you think I lenghtened the sentence? It was on purpose.
"C.e.s." is used as "I sense therefore I am".
My idea is "Cogito ergo sum, Operatio ergo vivere"

Ah, sorry, I seem to have been unclear. I didn't say that you lengthened the sentence, but that a lot of people shorten it and only use "cogito ergo sum".

That's closely related to what we spoke of in the posts above, but in a different context. IMO, living a quiet life is the same as living senseless. That's rather existance, not living.

But what about people who seem to live a quiet and boring life to others, but don't actually do? For instance, my classmates think of me as a boring and good girl that never goes against the rules or never does anything exciting. My friends know that I'm not anything like that. Even if I generally stick to the rules, I have no problem with questioning them. With my friends I tend to be very outgoing, active and a bit crazy sometimes.
Although I'm not exactly proud of it, I wear a mask for those people that don't know me. There's the me the others see and the true me. But I think every single person wears a mask to protect themselves. What do you think about that?

 

[xallisto]

A mask is necassary since most people are subjective and will never question thier own views. so its very hard to vioce a different view in front of them.

ill pose a slightly different question.

if a child was born with no senses with no input into thier brain, they would never learn language and thus never learn introspection and so they would never evolve into anything other than an empty shell. would you say that this child is truly alive?

it comes down to what a persons defenition of alive is how do you define alive.

is it something that is made from organs and a heart that beats is life really this simple or to be truly alive do you have to know that your alive?

if this child is totally incapable of knowing of its own existence, since it is totally unable to think then it cant really be alive.

i was having this debate with a friend of mine and hos opinion was that he belived that mind has a BIOS so to speak very basic thoughts that goven the most baisc functions.

but i arged that even if these BIOS settings existed they would only govern the very basic of function's such as the abilty to store memories and eventually these BIOS settings would evolve to the point in which they could these memories into a usefull context, such as words, faces and places and so the foundation of a childs mind and memories is formed eventually this foundation get bigger and bigger as more content and context is learned, eventually aftermany years the child starts to be able to make his own judgement and opinion using the contexts and facts that he has learned.

well strayed off subject there a bit.

back to the subject, these BIOS would rely on the senses to gather the memories to create the foundation of the childs mind.

to which my friend reply'ed that he belived that these simple functions even without any input still contitutes life.

and the difference between the brains BIOS and a computer BIOS for is the fact that given the chance the brains BIOS will evolve and that is the real meaning of bieng alive.

well sorry to ramble on lol

 

[Predator]

You don't ramble at all Xal. Nor you stray off topic (rather, it's OK to do that in this thread as long as it involves philosophy).

That child you mentioned exists. There are no signs of living. He's not even able to think because he has nothing to think about. This is a perfect example, how "living" is seperated from "existing". It's the most extreme case, thanks. Other case of "existance" is leading a live the normal and none way - just spending the time between birth and death somehow hollow.

 

[Gold Knight]

Preddy = Socrates of MH?

Sorry for the misunderstanding on the thread's topic early on, by the way.