[Round 1 - Team 7 vs Team 9 Singles 2] Hiyoshi vs Matsudaira

[Ninomiya]

As you said, we've been through this before. I don't really want to repeat myself either, the thing is that you don't seem to consider anything an improvement that can't be shown by a technique or whatever, which I don't agree with for the purpose of this discussion.

There isn't enough time to show 30 or so improvements and there can be improvements outside of special moves (even significant ones). That being said, he doesn't need a significant improvement because...

That isn't true. Don't change things. I myself said that I don't require a technique to see improvement.
At least three people repeated what you said and it was annoying repeating myself.

The point still stands that they ''improved'' in the Mountains, and you're a liar if you can tell me specifcally how Hiyoshi improved. Since we haven't been told a thing in detail where he improved. All we know is he can hit irregular bounds, so we're talking about a slight boost in Technique.

Therefore, if he doesn't get a significant boost, he shouldn't really do well against Matsudaira.
So he returned THS that he has seen nearly everyday from after Regionals right through til the Camp invitation.

Nationals!Shiraishi who broke down the counters of Fuji had to remove a weight to return it. Nationals!Shiraishi > Hiyoshi right now.
Don't see Hiyoshi beating Nationals!Fuji (No CE/6th Counter included).

We don't need to see 30 improvements to judge on other BJB members improvement.
Tooyama, Momoshiro, Kawamura, Niou, Kabaji clearly improved.
Oishi and Kenya also improved. But you can't prove they improved by much.

Going by that, only the Higher level players showed good improvement.
Don't see why we should suggest Hiyoshi improved much. We just know he improved, and he wasn't that good to begin with.

I don't think Nationals!Shiraishi is weaker than Hiyoshi, however, as Kaoz said, the irregular court where the losers played, there the ball bounced much like flower, and everybody was able to play normally there by the end of the training. Hiyoshi would definitely return flower after some tries, don't underestimate the guy, he has potential.

Richard Sakata and Shishido Ryo were also in that scene. On this, are we going to assume they can handle the Flower serve while Nationals!Shiraishi couldnt?
Hiyoshi does have potential, but he isnt beating Matsudaira.
If Matsudaira was taking games from Nationals!Shiraishi with just a serve, although I don't think in Singles he would beat Nationals!Shiraishi, I know it has to trouble Hiyoshi.

Since when did returning a shot you know so well mean you can return every other serve?
Flower Serve and THS have completely different concepts.
Flower Serve is more along the lines of Twist Serve, Knuckle Serve and Kick Serve while Tannhauser Serve lands like Tsubame Gaeshi.

He has potential. But we don't see it yet. So he possibly could win. But from what we've seen, I don't think he can win.

I ask this before in Tachibana/Chitose thread. Are we counting possible improvement+plot power? To quote the exact word, "So, improvement and plot seem to be a legit assumption for everyone? I know whos winning when it's Ryoma vs anyone then. "

Exactly what we went over in like one of the first matches Ken.
Hiyoshi shows no reason to be at that level.
I don't see him beating Marui or Hirakoba for starters.

---------- Post added at 10:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 AM ----------

Normal!Kirihara isn't that good, he had like 13.5 total. And both Normal!Akaya and Hiyoshi were defeated by Echizen back during Kantou by what seems to be an equal amount (remember that Hiyoshi only lost 4-6 against an Echizen who was supposed to play at his best).

What about Nationals!Shiraishi? Try and tell us how Hiyoshi is as good as Nationals!Shiraishi.

From what I can gather, AM!Kirihara (the version that returned Flower) is the same as REM!Kirihara without the mental drop, and while that's definitely an improvement, it's not a gap that you can't reasonably overcome in this timeframe.

What's REM!Kirihara?

Adding to that, Hiyoshi is prepared much better for this than Shiraishi or Kirihara were. Remember the court on the cliff where every shot had an irregular bounce? Any serve that's as fast as Flower requires the same reaction speed there, and we got to know that everyone was able to return that stuff by the end.

Why?
We don't know if its the same time.
I doubt we should really be assuming everybody from the Mountain training is suddenly immune to sudden-movement-style serves like Knuckle Serve and Flower Serve.
Since your now implying Richard Sakata can now handle Flower Serve after Mountain training. Since Hiyoshi partnered up with Sakata during that scene.

 

[-Ken-]

What's REM!Kirihara?

I think it stands for Red Eyes Mode. But I think Kaoz meant Devil Mode.

 

[Ninomiya]

I think it stands for Red Eyes Mode. But I think Kaoz meant Devil Mode.

Red Eyes Mode is Bloodshot Mode.

BM!Kirihara is better than Hiyoshi lol. Since Ryoma didn't use Muga no Kyouchi against Hiyoshi but he used Muga against Kirihara.
BM!Kirihara > Hiyoshi on that note.
Since Ryoma wasn't even in Muga against Hiyoshi as he hadn't mastered it yet.

 

[Kaoz]

I ask this before in Tachibana/Chitose thread. Are we counting possible improvement+plot power? To quote the exact word, "So, improvement and plot seem to be a legit assumption for everyone? I know whos winning when it's Ryoma vs anyone then. "

Plot power and reasonable improvement aren't the same. Pretty sure the rules state that reasonable improvement may be taken into account.

The point still stands that they ''improved'' in the Mountains, and you're a liar if you can tell me specifcally how Hiyoshi improved. Since we haven't been told a thing in detail where he improved. All we know is he can hit irregular bounds, so we're talking about a slight boost in Technique.

You said it yourself, their reaction time (which was the problem for Shiraishi and Akaya really) improved so much that they could play on that court. Moreover, Flower always has the same path whereas the balls on the practice court were much more random.

Richard Sakata and Shishido Ryo were also in that scene. On this, are we going to assume they can handle the Flower serve while Nationals!Shiraishi couldnt?

I doubt we should really be assuming everybody from the Mountain training is suddenly immune to sudden-movement-style serves like Knuckle Serve and Flower Serve.
Since your now implying Richard Sakata can now handle Flower Serve after Mountain training. Since Hiyoshi partnered up with Sakata during that scene.

Flower was returned by a non DM!Kirihara who quite frankly isn't very good and also far below Nationals!Shiraishi. Flower just isn't that strong of a serve once you got used to it it seems.

We can discuss about the winner here, but I don't think Hiyoshi will struggle against Flower throughout the whole match.

I think it stands for Red Eyes Mode. But I think Kaoz meant Devil Mode.

Yes that's what it stands for. And no, I didn't mean Devil Mode.

BM!Kirihara is better than Hiyoshi lol. Since Ryoma didn't use Muga no Kyouchi against Hiyoshi but he used Muga against Kirihara.
BM!Kirihara > Hiyoshi on that note.
Since Ryoma wasn't even in Muga against Hiyoshi as he hadn't mastered it yet.

If you look back, you will see that I only compared the normal Kirihara with Hiyoshi. I agree that REM!/BM!Kirihara is > Hiyoshi. I do not think that it's a gap you can't overcome within a few days in that camp, especially if you specifically train against that type of shot.

 

[-Ken-]

Plot power and reasonable improvement aren't the same. Pretty sure the rules state that reasonable improvement may be taken into account.

How many people get "reasonable improvement" that isn't based on the plot? Echizen goes from having only Muga to having Pinnacle of Hard Work, the upgraded version of Pinnacle of Hard Work, Pinnacle of Wisdom, and Pinnacle of Perfection all in one match. In my opinion, even if you ban PoP off Echizen, Echizen based on the agreement will still win against any player because it's reasonable because Echizen possibly could get an improvement on the scale of Pinnacle of Hard Work, the upgraded version of Pinnacle of Hard Work, Pinnacle of Wisdom, and Pinnacle of Perfection all in one match. That still makes him auto-win against anyone. If I reason it like that, then it's not plot, or is it?

 

[Ninomiya]

Either way Kaoz, returning the irregular bounds in the mountains means he can return Flower after a game or two sure, but Matsudaira is likely more than Flower.
Hiyoshi shouldn't have reached able to defeat old 3rd Court yet.
Honestly I just don't think its right to assume that Hiyoshi could have improved that much.

Only a few from the Mountains made significant improvement.
In fact, not many MSers in general have made significant noticeable improvement. Don't see why we should assume Hiyoshi should have.

Hiyoshi VS Matsudaira, Although most people have come here and written Hiyoshi off as losing this, they aren't wrong.
Can't see why we should assume Hiyoshi has made a massive jump.
This is a definete Matsudaira win.

 

[Kaoz]

Hiyoshi Wakashi: 1 vote
Matsudaira Chikahiko: 11 votes

Winner: Matsudaira Chikahiko