Anime elements that aren't shown in the manga ARE NOT canon. Unless you can provide a direct confirmation for such a scene from Oda himself or the production team. Let's not even go there.
This is why when we have discussions, I insist on manga pages as reference and not anime footage. If you're going to have this discussion going forward please bring your best panel or drop it. Thanks.
PO being defeated in the manga is your subjective interpretation, not something that can actually be proven, so that's not a valid point. You spent weeks complaining about PO getting up in the anime, which is why I'm calling you out now that you suddenly love the anime so much and want to consider it canon.
My point is that you can't have both things. You can't say "this from the anime isn't canon but this is" only when it benefits Sanji.
I don't have to abandon any point since I've never said anything from the anime is canon. If you check my points you'll see that I didn't even like Zoro's extended fights, so your point is non-existent, but it was nice of you how you tried to deflect my accusation (and failed).
Who is "you guys"? I never said the plot would push Sanji vs PO again.
In the manga, Sanji has not defeated PO and much less Drake, but that's not even the point of my comment. The point was only to call out how biased you can be on this topic, and you have no way out of there.
You made many posts complaining about people taking PO getting up just fine after his encounter with Sanji as canon.
Now you were fast to jump to claim that this anime episode was great and that it's canon because Sanji somehow effortlessly beat Drake in it.
You know that even if Sanji really was stronger than Drake without the RS (which I don't think it's true, but that's a different topic), it would still be a high-diff fight and not such an easy feat for Sanji, right? The only part of the fight that comes from the manga is Drake tanking a kick with his face like "no problem".
Then explain why he never came back to help Drake and Hawkins who were around more in going after Sanji than himself? If we not using Anime evidence, we can't state PO was active as doesn't make sense why leave on the job you were given and you could face consequences and scolding form your peers? Drake was shown upset on Soba-Mask being around and they couldn't get him. He didn't return until later in Fire Festival after 2 weeks, so evidence heavily shows in manga-wise PO was defeated and recover after awhile just same with Holdem after Luffy beat him, but we see him later. Are we going to presume Luffy is not stronger than Holdem cause isn't down for good after resting for awhile too?
I know, but using it same to you too who use it for evidence on situation good on your points and others. Idk you look like you used it as a point on issue on how Zoro fainted and he was active before going down compare to the manga more, so if your true to your word, it's debatable still compare to manga on what made him faint and he tied with him since he fallen in seconds later.
Nah you were one of them stating he will face PO cause in your mind 'he never defeated' him, but you have no explanation to push why PO never return if he wasn't 'defeated'. We had 2 weeks before festival started, it's not rocket science to realize the results he was defeated and needed to recover become coming back. If Holdem and Kamazou was like that, why is it expection on PO despite same showing them coming back later? If you don't like a character that is fine, but non-canon statements won't push your point better if you don't provide the answer. You can't prove my point wrong given evidence on it more compare to yours. No word if Sanji never defeated him as it would be address if Sanji was worried about it if he didn't beat someone, but it didn't. You see how it works like that? Regardless we use Anime or Manga, it still shows showing that portrayal of Sanji is greater over T6H, so you got learn to admit him being stronger than he looks than wanting to think he is unable to do anything to them.
Well technically we didn't see an concrete hit to him by full force as only one was when he was holding Toko, but more so to get away to not fight while holding a child in his arms. After that we see only Drake being slow to keep up in hitting him and him tanking an hit without trouble. We later see him not concerned of Drake and use COO even while fighting, so manga never clearly state all his hits does no damage as wasn't shown on that. It's debatable on his power will damage him or not given we haven't seen Sanji going all out in a fight. If the Anime especially got Oda's blessing about it on how it was shown combine on latest chapter on Sanji not feeling threaten by PO when seeing him again in the manga, push narrative Sanji was stronger than T6H from his side.
Yeah, but certain scenes were extended and not shown in manga, so again going by manga it's debatable on certain stuff. That's what I am just saying as we can't use it back and forth for scene in our favor while another isn't. It's either Canon or Non-Canon. Can't have it both ways.
Anime elements that aren't shown in the manga ARE NOT canon. Unless you can provide a direct confirmation for such a scene from Oda himself or the production team. Let's not even go there.
This is why when we have discussions, I insist on manga pages as reference and not anime footage. If you're going to have this discussion going forward please bring your best panel or drop it. Thanks.
Sure thing, goldb. Sorry my post came after your post in seconds a bit. We will push stop to the talk now and only discuss stuff manga or SBS related by Oda's words unless Oda talk about event in Anime truly canon to be on this topics.
Then explain why he never came back to help Drake and Hawkins who were around more in going after Sanji than himself? If we not using Anime evidence, we can't state PO was active as doesn't make sense why leave on the job you were given and you could face consequences and scolding form your peers? Drake was shown upset on Soba-Mask being around and they couldn't get him. He didn't return until later in Fire Festival after 2 weeks, so evidence heavily shows in manga-wise PO was defeated and recover after awhile just same with Holdem after Luffy beat him, but we see him later. Are we going to presume Luffy is not stronger than Holdem cause isn't down for good after resting for awhile too?
I know, but using it same to you too who use it for evidence on situation good on your points and others. Idk you look like you used it as a point on issue on how Zoro fainted and he was active before going down compare to the manga more, so if your true to your word, it's debatable still compare to manga on what made him faint and he tied with him since he fallen in seconds later.
Nah you were one of them stating he will face PO cause in your mind 'he never defeated' him, but you have no explanation to push why PO never return if he wasn't 'defeated'. We had 2 weeks before festival started, it's not rocket science to realize the results he was defeated and needed to recover become coming back. If Holdem and Kamazou was like that, why is it expection on PO despite same showing them coming back later? If you don't like a character that is fine, but non-canon statements won't push your point better if you don't provide the answer. You can't prove my point wrong given evidence on it more compare to yours. No word if Sanji never defeated him as it would be address if Sanji was worried about it if he didn't beat someone, but it didn't. You see how it works like that? Regardless we use Anime or Manga, it still shows showing that portrayal of Sanji is greater over T6H, so you got learn to admit him being stronger than he looks than wanting to think he is unable to do anything to them.
Well technically we didn't see an concrete hit to him by full force as only one was when he was holding Toko, but more so to get away to not fight while holding a child in his arms. After that we see only Drake being slow to keep up in hitting him and him tanking an hit without trouble. We later see him not concerned of Drake and use COO even while fighting, so manga never clearly state all his hits does no damage as wasn't shown on that. It's debatable on his power will damage him or not given we haven't seen Sanji going all out in a fight. If the Anime especially got Oda's blessing about it on how it was shown combine on latest chapter on Sanji not feeling threaten by PO when seeing him again in the manga, push narrative Sanji was stronger than T6H from his side.
Yeah, but certain scenes were extended and not shown in manga, so again going by manga it's debatable on certain stuff. That's what I am just saying as we can't use it back and forth for scene in our favor while another isn't. It's either Canon or Non-Canon. Can't have it both ways.
--- Double Post Merged, ---
Sure thing, goldb. Sorry my post came after your post in seconds a bit. We will push stop to the talk now and only discuss stuff manga or SBS related by Oda's words unless Oda talk about event in Anime truly canon to be on this topics.
"Sanji wasn't wounded by King because he would have mentioned it this chapter, despite he clearly having injuries on his face last chapter. If he had been wounded, he would say so in his dialogue".
"Page One was defeated by Sanji and that's why he didn't appear again (despite there being multiple other likely explanations) and it doesn't matter if Sanji did not mention it".
I'm not even going to discuss this, I'm only going to point out every time that one of your arguments steps over another of your arguments.
"Sanji wasn't wounded by King because he would have mentioned it this chapter, despite he clearly having injuries on his face last chapter. If he had been wounded, he would say so in his dialogue".
"Page One was defeated by Sanji and that's why he didn't appear again (despite there being multiple other likely explanations) and it doesn't matter if Sanji did not mention it".
I'm not even going to discuss this, I'm only going to point out every time that one of your arguments steps over another of your arguments.
Looking at latest recent chapters I do not see any visible injuries on his face you and few others push when it was debris, so error issues you pushed have been debunked about that.
Again explain where is he then? Why he never return? If you have no explanation on that as well why Sanji was so nonchalant on seeing him again, it shows he doesn't care about guy he already beaten early. Got admit when you been debunk on subjects like these from time to time as being wrong won't hurt your credibility for future discussions.
Neither doesn't, but go ahead on changing subject and not asking my questions like usual since you got nothing to back.
Looking at latest recent chapters I do not see any visible injuries on his face you and few others push when it was debris, so error issues you pushed have been debunked about that.
Again explain where is he then? Why he never return? If you have no explanation on that as well why Sanji was so nonchalant on seeing him again, it shows he doesn't care about guy he already beaten early. Got admit when you been debunk on subjects like these from time to time as being wrong won't hurt your credibility for future discussions.
Neither doesn't, but go ahead on changing subject and not asking my questions like usual since you got nothing to back.
You tell people too much to admit when they are wrong. I have never seen you admit it a single time, not even now.
I can explain why Page One never returned, you can look up our past discussion on the topic where I have already told you them more than once. I don't want to reopen that discussion, since it's another endless one.
Moe stop being unecessarily stubborn about these things. You are literally the only person who has these debates, so the onus of proof would be on you.
1. As Moegara stated, there could a multitude of reasons why Page One was not shown again until the F6 official introduction on Onigashima. If you have proof that he was indeed defeated, please provide the manga panels to do so. If you haven't then the jury is still out on that until either characters or the manga can confirm one way or the other. For all intents and purpose Page One was shown to be absolutely fine and neither he nor Sanji acknowledged the other in this current chapter. Had PO been defeated, he would likely mentioned this or wanted to retaliate as you would expect of a defeated opponent to do so.
2. The same would be said for Drake. Again, the anime is contradictory to what is shown in the manga. Either prove with manga sources that he was defeated or abstain from these ridiculous debates. They go nowhere without providing considerable proof.
Also for both of these characters, how ever short the encounters were, if the point was to showcase Sanji's victories, wouldn't the manga have done so rather than just show inconclusive pages/panels? Wouldn't it be more of fiting for Sanji's portrayal?
1- I understand that to extend the fight they had to make up Drake's fighting style, but I think they messed up even that. I doubt that he fights with his front claws in full transformation form. Just imagine an allosaurus or a T-Rex fighting with his tiny claws.
2- Going from not being able to put a dent on Drake with a front kick to the face to just easily defeating him and Drake just remaining still taking x50 kicks to the face without reacting for no reason?
The HUGE disrespect to Drake, a Supernova. Going from being superior in the part that comes from the manga, to being fodder and not even put up a fight a minute of filler later. Yeah, I've been reminded of why I stopped watching it.
If the fight had better choreography and Sanji didn't have such an easy time with a supernova I may not call it disrespectful to Drake.
I know not all supernova need to be of the same strength. Hawkins and Bege in particular have been shown to have tricky powers but to not be just as strong as the rest of them. Apoo, too, would fall into that category since he's all about his tricky DF. However, except for perhaps Killer, all supernova are always represented as being around the same tier and all of them being a possible menace to eachother. None of them is fodder.
Drake in particular all about physical strength, technique and endurance, who even back at Sabaody was able to damage a Pacifista more than G2 Luffy and Zoro could on their own back then.
Him being treated as some random gifter is too much.
In all seriousness, the anime portrayed Sanji like he should have been portrayed in the manga all this time.
Luffy having 2 subordinates (Sanji and Zoro) at the level of New World Captains and SN and 1 thats a Shichibukai (Jinbei) should fall in line with what the crew SHOULD be at this close to the end of the manga.
I frankly don't think the ainme showed anything outrageous in what Sanji is capable of. I expect him to be able to handle Drake in the manga just as comfortably as he did in the anime. That being said...
What happened shouldn't be brought up in power level discussions of a serious nature.
I'm okay with SHs reaching new heights, but they should not be the only crew that's raising to replace the older generation whose time is long due.
I expect Drake, just like Law and Kid, to be some sort of rival to Luffy even if Luffy surpasses them all, which is why I don't agree he should be fodderized by Sanji nor by Zoro.
I frankly don't think the ainme showed anything outrageous in what Sanji is capable of. I expect him to be able to handle Drake in the manga just as comfortably as he did in the anime. That being said...
Drake or Sanji haven't done much in the manga, so their strength is not 100% clear...
That said, it does seem a bit inconsistent.
As I already mentioned, Sanji couldn't finish Page One, but defeated Drake who is even stronger without the Raid Suit.
And this very week chapter has Drake fighting Zoro. In the context, Drake is trying to form an alliance and only wants to talk, while Zoro think of him as an enemy and is fighting him seriously. Doesn't that imply that Drake could handle Zoro?
What you call last chapters is only "last panel". This was the last panel he was in before that one:
That's not "debris", that's his blood.
You tell people too much to admit when they are wrong. I have never seen you admit it a single time, not even now.
I can explain why Page One never returned, you can look up our past discussion on the topic where I have already told you them more than once. I don't want to reopen that discussion, since it's another endless one.
recent chapters show no blood on his face, so Idk how you keep saying that when future chapters debunk and destroy that claim unless your saying Oda is making new errors for each time he draw Sanji which is just pushing it even more.
I have admit fault as I stated when I am sorry and when I am wrong on certain things, but not backing down on something like this with your 'injury theory' that been debunked these past chapters along with you have stated nothing why PO never came back in manga if he was 'active' and why Drake and Hawkins did things alone? You either state your evidence on that or not since overall manga especially latest chapter, pushes more debunk theory of PO did anything noteworthy to Sanij or he is worried about him as he shown nothing about the guy on seeing him. If he thinks Usopp and Nami can beat him and Ulti, then it shows he see him at level they can beat him since he easily beat and ragdoll him without even trying.
Moe stop being unecessarily stubborn about these things. You are literally the only person who has these debates, so the onus of proof would be on you.
1. As Moegara stated, there could a multitude of reasons why Page One was not shown again until the F6 official introduction on Onigashima. If you have proof that he was indeed defeated, please provide the manga panels to do so. If you haven't then the jury is still out on that until either characters or the manga can confirm one way or the other. For all intents and purpose Page One was shown to be absolutely fine and neither he nor Sanji acknowledged the other in this current chapter. Had PO been defeated, he would likely mentioned this or wanted to retaliate as you would expect of a defeated opponent to do so.
2. The same would be said for Drake. Again, the anime is contradictory to what is shown in the manga. Either prove with manga sources that he was defeated or abstain from these ridiculous debates. They go nowhere without providing considerable proof.
Also for both of these characters, how ever short the encounters were, if the point was to showcase Sanji's victories, wouldn't the manga have done so rather than just show inconclusive pages/panels? Wouldn't it be more of fiting for Sanji's portrayal?
Not being stubborn at all and I have shown my proof and even asked for them, Idk what your going on about, but we talking about manga, not anime anymore. Just because someone have different opinion doesn't mean they are being stubborn as we just having debate on the situation. People agree or disagree. That how debates are especially if it talks like this without concenter about it.
Well evidence is more strongly Sanji beaten him than he didn't beaten him as why would Sanji lied about taking him down if he wasn't sure about that and go without telling the crew about PO if he was constant active threat? Do you have any proof PO was active at all in the manga? All we have shown he was ragdoll to oblivion by Sanji without effort and since the fight no reports or chaos have happen since then from PO. He never return to Drake and Hawkins in any of scenes with them since and we only saw him 2 weeks later when Fire Festival. We see Sanji looking at PO for first time and his response was non-caring to his existence and even state Usopp and Nami can handle him and Ulti without need to feel like he has to help them. Looking at all this, why should I give faith or presume PO was always active? This looks more like same situation like Luffy vs Holdem who got defeated, but we later see him coming after in follow weeks after he rest up.
Until evidence says otherwise, the situation is heavily on Sanji's side he defeated him and PO is not someone on his level or even stronger than him for that matter.
As for that, Oda been off-screening a lot of things even moments on different characters that should have been seen, but doesn't mean he doesn't want to or care about them as he did states he will let Anime cover the stuff to expand on them from what he stated in interview. That doesn't mean it's canon all the way, but Oda is not presenting Sanji's portrayal level of power what you think as both are pushing him to be stronger than we realize. We just saw him tank an serious attack from King and now building ongoing fight between them. You were one of the few who stated Sanji will fight PO again, but turn out to be wrong as Oda pushing portrayal of him facing someone else greater. You shouldn't read too much in that espect when it was clear Sanji dominated him easily in their fight. There is no purpose of a rematch or even why waste easy opponent for him when it could be good development for the rest of Strawhats to face with him?
I respect what you getting at, but you have to understand to not undermined characters thinking they won't be able to get stronger to next level when this is One Piece and it has happen before.
He wasn't trying to do a full fight when you have child in your hands? Why handicap yourself like that? Doesn't make sense there.
I mean not all Supernovas will be equal to Luffy's level. Only ones who are will be Kidd and Law while rest can be more comparable to Sanji's and Zoro's level at least. Also wouldn't call that attack Sanji hitting him full force as he was holding Toko there. Your quite pushing it thinking if that was his full power he was laying on him when your holding child that you need to get safety for her before facing on full fight.
Drake or Sanji haven't done much in the manga, so their strength is not 100% clear...
That said, it does seem a bit inconsistent.
As I already mentioned, Sanji couldn't finish Page One, but defeated Drake who is even stronger without the Raid Suit.
And this very week chapter has Drake fighting Zoro. In the context, Drake is trying to form an alliance and only wants to talk, while Zoro think of him as an enemy and is fighting him seriously. Doesn't that imply that Drake could handle Zoro?
Sanji defeated PO, what you talking about? Clear level difference when your screaming in pain and was getting ragdoll. Also Drake isn't fodderized as he still come back later to fight, but Anime like Manga is showing Sanji along with Zoro are getting stronger that they can fight with Supernovas. I don't see them beating Kidd or Law, but the rest they could since they aren't same level or at least varies on how Oda always push Luffy, Kidd, and Law as the top of the WG.
Sanji defeated PO, what you talking about? Clear level difference when your screaming in pain and was getting ragdoll. Also Drake isn't fodderized as he still come back later to fight, but Anime like Manga is showing Sanji along with Zoro are getting stronger that they can fight with Supernovas. I don't see them beating Kidd or Law, but the rest they could since they aren't same level or at least varies on how Oda always push Luffy, Kidd, and Law as the top of the WG.
recent chapters show no blood on his face, so Idk how you keep saying that when future chapters debunk and destroy that claim unless your saying Oda is making new errors for each time he draw Sanji which is just pushing it even more.
I have admit fault as I stated when I am sorry and when I am wrong on certain things, but not backing down on something like this with your 'injury theory' that been debunked these past chapters along with you have stated nothing why PO never came back in manga if he was 'active' and why Drake and Hawkins did things alone? You either state your evidence on that or not since overall manga especially latest chapter, pushes more debunk theory of PO did anything noteworthy to Sanij or he is worried about him as he shown nothing about the guy on seeing him. If he thinks Usopp and Nami can beat him and Ulti, then it shows he see him at level they can beat him since he easily beat and ragdoll him without even trying.
Why do you keep talking about "recent chapters"? The picture I posted is the last picture of chapter 990, and we're on chapter 991. He was injured in the second to last chapter, so you can't use a plural here.
So far, he's been uninjured in only ONE PANEL of chapter 991, so it's not a theory, it's just common sense to see that Oda can make mistakes.
The fact that you consistently aren't honest even in things as simple as this, that can be proven to empirically not be true just by reading over the last two chapters, speaks volumes.
Give me proof he came back after the fight without using Anime. Where was he when Drake and Hawkins were doing his mission? If you have no proof and next time we saw him was 2 weeks later, push notion he was defeated and needed to recover.
Give me proof he came back after the fight without using Anime. Where was he when Drake and Hawkins were doing his mission? If you have no proof and next time we saw him was 2 weeks later, push notion he was defeated and needed to recover.
And where was Marco then? Why wasn't he shown sailing towards Wano? Were was Ashura Douji during most of that time?
There are many characters in this arc and many of them have disappeared for months simply because they're too many. There is not a single panel nor mention of P1 being defeated. Not even a comment by Sanji nor much P1, who doesn't seem to be interested in getting revenge.
If you can prove that P1 was defeated, do so. As goldb told you, the burden of proof is on you. If you can't prove it, the talk is pointless, so drop it.
I should just tell you to provide manga proof for all of your claims at this point.
Why do you keep talking about "recent chapters"? The picture I posted is the last picture of chapter 990, and we're on chapter 991. He was injured in the second to last chapter, so you can't use a plural here.
So far, he's been uninjured in only ONE PANEL of chapter 991, so it's not a theory, it's just common sense to see that Oda can make mistakes.
The fact that you consistently aren't honest even in things as simple as this, that can be proven to empirically not be true just by reading over the last two chapters, speaks volumes.
What you getting at? That panel is from Chapter 989, not Chapter 990. This is recent images from past recent chapters of Sanji like this as Chapter 990:
Nah, they aren't errors, now your taking biased on not admitting recent chapters show him uninjured especially in Chapter 991 show multiple imagery of him:
So I take Oda is wrong on all of these then after having few weeks to think about characters including Sanji? Again your not being honest if your saying ALL of these are errors as it's one thing if it's one page I can give you that, but if your ignoring these as all as errors despite Oda isn't sloppy artist to forget that long, then you really are only one not honest here about the situation. I read my chapters and your clearly ignoring them to try to downplay the situation if you honestly are ignoring all of these as 'errors'.
And where was Marco then? Why wasn't he shown sailing towards Wano? Were was Ashura Douji during most of that time?
There are many characters in this arc and many of them have disappeared for months simply because they're too many. There is not a single panel nor mention of P1 being defeated. Not even a comment by Sanji nor much P1, who doesn't seem to be interested in getting revenge.
If you can prove that P1 was defeated, do so. As goldb told you, the burden of proof is on you. If you can't prove it, the talk is pointless, so drop it.
I should just tell you to provide manga proof for all of your claims at this point.
Last time I check, Macro still ok as we didn't seen anyone like him screaming in pain or getting damage each time when he came. Do you have imagery of that against BMP or when he is with Perospero.
Your talk would work if we saw him heavily damage and didn't see him again, but PO and 'not interested' in revenge? Yet the man chase after Luffy and Yamato after they take him and his sister out? Now he is going after Usopp and Nami right now after they mock and attack them. Your stating PO doesn't 'revenge' anyone and yet he doing that right now? Yeah your not credible the more you keep talking about this situation. Please come back when your ready to be fair in our talks than biased notion like these.
If you can give me proof of PO being active after fight, then please do and where and what he been doing? If you can't, then it's more heavily implied PO got defeated if he never came back to fight until 2 weeks later which give him enough resting time about the situation.
I just show proof early, but your ignoring it clearly again. I been providing them, but again you have nothing to support about notion about PO situation as your pushing Sanji didn't beat him, but yet has no proof on what he been doing if he was 'active', so please give me concrete evidence. If not, we push this talk away for now and agree to disagree about the situation then. Let's stop talk here as our last talk on this matter then.
Give me proof he came back after the fight without using Anime. Where was he when Drake and Hawkins were doing his mission? If you have no proof and next time we saw him was 2 weeks later, push notion he was defeated and needed to recover.
