Discussion Sanji Discussion Thread

[Nie Li]

To be fair, Smoker only changed tactics because Vergo was stronger.

If Smoker could have defeated Vergo and simply returned the heart, he'd have done so as he wouldn't want to be indebted to pirates in any shape or form. He realised he was outmatched and simply opted to do the best he could which was acquire the heart back and give it to Law who'd finish it.

I agree with that. Smoker chose this tactic because he simply couldn't win. He simply did better when compared to Sanji.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I agree with that. Smoker chose this tactic because he simply couldn't win. He simply did better when compared to Sanji.

Biggest problem with Sanji is expectation and reality.

Expectation would have us believe he should be equal to Zoro or at least, shown to be close in terms of power.

However, thinking about it now... it does make one wonder that if Oda really intended for Sanji and Zoro to be equal in terms of power or at least, competitive with the other... why didn't he make Sanji 1 of the Supernova?

I'd say the fact Sanji is not one of the Supernova might just be proof or Oda's way of saying Sanji isn't supposed to be a power-house in the sense that Zoro and Luffy are. With that in mind, I won't be too surprised if Jimbei takes his spot.

 

[XXGenesis]

To be fair, Smoker only changed tactics because Vergo was stronger.

If Smoker could have defeated Vergo and simply returned the heart, he'd have done so as he wouldn't want to be indebted to pirates in any shape or form. He realised he was outmatched and simply opted to do the best he could which was acquire the heart back and give it to Law who'd finish it.

Smoker wouldn't want to be indebted to a Pirate.

That aside, the very fact Smoker has Hardening and Sanji doesn't makes Smoker naturally the superior. More so, Vergo fractured his knee without even using Hardening, however, Sanji was injured prior, but it still doesn't look good given that if we even wanted to give Sanji the benefit of the doubt for having hardening... he's never used it in situations that it was undoubtedly useful to avoid death or fatal injuries.

Overall, Smoker is portrayed as being superior. Sanji has been portrayed as weak since the time-skip to bluntly put it.

I agree with that. Smoker chose this tactic because he simply couldn't win. He simply did better when compared to Sanji.

Ok, I give. Sanji can’t beat Smoker.

Biggest problem with Sanji is expectation and reality.

Expectation would have us believe he should be equal to Zoro or at least, shown to be close in terms of power.

However, thinking about it now... it does make one wonder that if Oda really intended for Sanji and Zoro to be equal in terms of power or at least, competitive with the other... why didn't he make Sanji 1 of the Supernova?

I'd say the fact Sanji is not one of the Supernova might just be proof or Oda's way of saying Sanji isn't supposed to be a power-house in the sense that Zoro and Luffy are. With that in mind, I won't be too surprised if Jimbei takes his spot.

Checkout the Megaconvo thread I posted a few dope videos from YouTube that address the issue.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Ok, I give. Sanji can’t beat Smoker.



Checkout the Megaconvo thread I posted a few dope videos from YouTube that address the issue.

I just watched it. He does make some fair points, but I think he is being political in the sense of making everyone happy. As a YouTuber, he does benefit from not being too strongly opinionated and appealing to as many viewers as possible.

Some points:

• He wasn't made a Supernova which doesn't strengthen arguments for him.
• Since the New World, no showcasing of Hardening.
• No solid victories against any reputable opponents.
• Luffy developed Advanced Armament; Zoro acquired a Sword that brings out his Haki which means he's likely learnt Advanced Armament (especially with how he effortlessly destroyed that cliff); Sanji's not been given such development for whatever reason.
• Only Supernova are all facing Kaido now.
• And Sanji is CONSTANTLY a comedic gag... it's like Oda can't restrain himself.

I'm beginning to think Sanji's misunderstood by the fans (myself included).

If we read the WCI arc, I think this is the entire point of Sanji...

The entire point of Sanji seemingly is to be the guy who isn't exactly the strongest or the best or outstanding, but someone who tries their best and is an all round flawed... but great human despite all that. This is someone most people can relate to. Someone who was looked down upon, mistreated, seen as a failure...

I think Oda's point with Sanji is that we don't have to live up to the standards of others, but to the standard that we want. Sanji's character is about self-acceptance.

In a sense, we're being Judge... we judge Sanji for not being the super soldier like Zoro or Luffy. For not being 1 of the Supernova. In reality, it's okay to not be the best at anything. What's important is being a good human being and doing your best. Essentially, Sanji's a metaphor on accepting people for who they are... and not what we want them to be or expect them to be.

As Judge says, he's an army failure, isn't the strongest, he's emotional, humble and is simply just human. Luffy can't tell Judge's insulting Sanji because Sanji has all the qualities of a good human being... the ideal human being.

Sanji's just a cook with the dream to find all blue and not having ambitions to be the strongest doesn't make him any less important. Maybe that's why Oda's not made him outstandingly powerful (as per representation im).

Doesn't mean he's not strong, but he's unlikely to be the monster that Zoro and Luffy are. At least, that's the impression I'm beginning to get.

 

[Fox666]

However, thinking about it now... it does make one wonder that if Oda really intended for Sanji and Zoro to be equal in terms of power or at least, competitive with the other... why didn't he make Sanji 1 of the Supernova?

Sanji is not one of the Supernovas because his bounty was lower. But if bounties mean anything, Sanji now has the higher bounty...

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Sanji is not one of the Supernovas because his bounty was lower. But if bounties mean anything, Sanji now has the higher bounty...

Now he has a higher bounty, but we could make the same argument in a sense that Robin now has a 130m bounty, therefore, she can be a Supernova.

Even if he has a similar (but higher) bounty, we have enough understanding of Bounty to know it's not a mark of strength per se, but a mark of how much crimes one has committed against the WG and how many incidents outside of the WG involvement. I personally wouldn't view bounty as hugely important. It does have it's place, but bounty has a very broad interpretation. No 2 bounties even if the same necessarily entail the same things.

If we just look at how Sanji's character has progressed fundamentally and we believe it's purposefully done, it seems conclusive.

Like we can look at Usopp, can obviously tell he's nothing compared to Luffy or Zoro, but his development isn't about being the strongest, it's more about overcoming his fear and and being viewed as a warrior. If we look at Sanji as he's developed so far at least, it's no different, it doesn't seem strength emphasised, but more on his chivalry and kindness even when it makes him vulnerable. Sanji loves women and won't fight them... while it's a flaw and a vulnerability, it's an example of how kind he is. It's inconvenient, but it looks like Sanji's more a character modelled to send a message about embracing human flaws.

Narrative might be the biggest driver in all this. I could be wrong, we'll just how to see how Sanji develops from here on out.

 

[Fox666]

Now he has a higher bounty, but we could make the same argument in a sense that Robin now has a 130m bounty, therefore, she can be a Supernova.

IIRC the Supernovas are pirates who have reached the end of Paradise with a bounty over 100,000,000

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

IIRC the Supernovas are pirates who have reached the end of Paradise with a bounty over 100,000,000

I'm not saying otherwise.

My point was that whether Sanji has a better bounty that's similar to Zoro now doesn't mean anything because he's not getting similar portrayal and bounties don't really mean the same thing even with the same value.

He might have a 330m bounty, but he's still:

1. Not shown to possess Hardening.
2. Not shown to have decisive wins.
3. Not shown to be viewed as a potential captain like Zoro.
4. Not 1 of the people currently facing Kaido.

My point is he doesn't have similar portrayal to continue believing he should have similar representation as Zoro. That's all.

 

[Ramen]

Ok, I give. Sanji can’t beat Smoker.

Yes he can.

 

[M3J]

I of course ignore everything that happened pre-TS for this debate.

Luffy would no-diff Smoker in Punk Hazard if he went G4. Now he wouldn't even need it for a low-diff. But I question Sanji's feats.

Well detailed post, I actually read the entire thing.

That aside, I don't see any reason to when CoA should allow Sanji to at least hit Smoker. The conditions were also different, Smoker was probably seen as a bigger challenge because he's a logia, whereas Sanji was a normal human who uses hand-to-foot style.

And to further emphasize how badly Sanji was hurt after mere moments of fighting, Oda added this scene:

Spoiler: Pics

Sanji's leg cracking can be explained by how hurt his body supposedly already was, but he still failed to surpass Vergo's tekkai with his diable jambe, and there's no reason to believe Sanji didn't use his haki in those attacks.

I mean, Oda after that still had Sanji move like he never fought Vergo. No signs of pain or weakness in that leg, Sanji was still fighting like he was rested.

 

[Nie Li]

Well detailed post, I actually read the entire thing.

That aside, I don't see any reason to when CoA should allow Sanji to at least hit Smoker. The conditions were also different, Smoker was probably seen as a bigger challenge because he's a logia, whereas Sanji was a normal human who uses hand-to-foot style.

No, of course, Sanji can hit Smoker. Smoker wouldn't no-diff Sanji out of existence, he would get hurt too, but he should get the upper hand going by my observations.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

With the Raid Suit, I do think Sanji could beat Smoker. Observation allows one to sense, but I guess being literally invisible would make it harder to sense someone. With this level of invisibility, I do think Sanji could just as well beat Smoker unless his Observation is very powerful.

Random, but I would like to see more of Coby and how close he is to becoming an Admiral.

Edit: Meant Coby instead of Sabo.

 

[Fox666]

Wouldn't Smoker be able to see-through the invisibility using his smoke?

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Wouldn't Smoker be able to see-through the invisibility using his smoke?

I guess it will depend on tactics and I think the suit takes on the image of whatever it's blending over. He could potentially look like Smoke too assuming I'm remembering how it works. Smoker also wouldn't want to increase his surface area as that would just make him a bigger target.

I think it will be a very strategic fight as both Smoker and Sanji are extremely clever. Sanji's one of the smartest in the crew.

 

[M3J]

No, of course, Sanji can hit Smoker. Smoker wouldn't no-diff Sanji out of existence, he would get hurt too, but he should get the upper hand going by my observations.

Yes, but my point is that being able to hit Smoker should give Sanji the advantage, whereas you're saying based on feats shown after the timeskip, Smoker should win this one.

 

[AmitDS]

Zoro was well known before joining the SH crew while Sanji was not. Sanji now has a higher bounty as the world knows about his last name. I'm not saying Sanji is stronger than Zoro but that the logic that he's not a SN so he's way below Zoro isn't what is represented in the manga. If anything, Sanji being hailed as a monster like Zoro and Luffy, usually fighting opponents marginally weaker than Zoro's, him now having a higher bounty than Zoro (3rd highest in the crew) with his own reputation being revealed (his family) and Queen looking at him and Zoro as the strongest members after Luffy himself, shows that Sanji is not an average guy.

 

[Ramen]

Smoker is fodder. He shouldn't even be brought up.

 

[Prince13333]

I'm not saying otherwise.

My point was that whether Sanji has a better bounty that's similar to Zoro now doesn't mean anything because he's not getting similar portrayal and bounties don't really mean the same thing even with the same value.

He might have a 330m bounty, but he's still:

1. Not shown to possess Hardening.
2. Not shown to have decisive wins.
3. Not shown to be viewed as a potential captain like Zoro.
4. Not 1 of the people currently facing Kaido.

My point is he doesn't have similar portrayal to continue believing he should have similar representation as Zoro. That's all.

Zoro and Sanji never had similar portrayal. Thats not how he was introduced........Why do people think he's suppose to be portrayed like Zoro? I don't think Sanji was ever crazy close to Zoro, I think it only appeared that way because Sanji and the straw hats in general had a lot of their own individual fights pre timeskip. Post Timeskip Oda doesn't draw full fights that much..... that's the difference.But these characters are still the same and dynamics haven't changed...

Even Now the Sanji who's being compromised by a woman currently is the Same Sanji who was compromised by Khalifa in Enies Lobby. He's not gonna Fight Kaido, but He'll get a fight against someone strong. That should be good enough.

 

[Fox666]

And Sanji is CONSTANTLY a comedic gag... it's like Oda can't restrain himself.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I'm actually looking forward to the next time Sanji's shown. Hopefully next chapter.