Discussion Sanji Discussion Thread

[XXGenesis]

I’m ignoring the member who brought it up. Did the RS bend King’s beak??

 

[Nie Li]

I’m ignoring the member who brought it up. Did the RS bend King’s beak??

Not sure. There are two options.

Option 1: It's an inconsistency on Oda's part and nothing really happened to his beck.
Option 2: His beck got bent yet King showed no pain, no anger and no grudge towards Sanji and just left him be after smashing him through the building with 0 reactions to having his beck bent.

It's more likely option 1. For the reasons I already stated but also because his upper beck (despite looking "bent") seems to still be the perfect length to close his "mouth", despite his lower beck not having been bent.

If it's bent, it will be addressed whenever King gains a little bit more spotlight.

 

[catagon87]

Not sure. There are two options.

Option 1: It's an inconsistency on Oda's part and nothing really happened to his beck.
Option 2: His beck got bent yet King showed no pain, no anger and no grudge towards Sanji and just left him be after smashing him through the building with 0 reactions to having his beck bent.

It's more likely option 1. For the reasons I already stated but also because his upper beck (despite looking "bent") seems to still be the perfect length to close his "mouth", despite his lower beck not having been bent.

If it's bent, it will be addressed whenever King gains a little bit more spotlight.

Must have missed this one. We're talking about King's beak getting bent now? The level of pettiness here is insane sometimes. King barely acknowledged Sanji after the attack he did. I feel like we're rapidly approaching the day when it's going to be brought up that Sanji didn't catch COVID, thus he's strong.

 

[A$APBog]

Again, I can't defend any of that. He's gotten a raw deal. I don't think it's enough, but there isn't anything I can do about it. This brings me to my next point...

That is literally all that I, as a Sanji Fan, can do at the moment. Trust that Oda will treat Sanji with respect like he did in the major pre time skip arcs. He's given Sanji just enough to prove that he isn't completely excluded from being a strong fighter and a major pillar in the crew. His current resume in the New World sucks to put it lightly, but Oda keeps up with the hype and hints. It has to pay off eventually. Sanji is a part of the next generation and has been the 3rd strongest crew member in the crew for the longest time. Patience is running thin, but I still have enough to get me through to the end of this arc. But if Oda doesn't deliver...



That's up to Oda to figure out. Either way, there are like 3 allied doctors inside the castle now, one of them is bound to fix up Zoro enough that he's in a condition to fight. And, unless Kaido has a surprise 2nd in command, he's going to be fighting King because that's the pattern every major fight in the series has been following since Alabasta.

There is nothing wrong with Sanji fighting Queen, especially given the fact that the power difference between the two is likely as big as the difference between Kaku and Jabra, which was pretty much negligible.

To be honest, I agree with you. I think he will definitely fight Queen because Oda is predictable in this regard.

Luffy always fight the big bad alone, Zoro the VC or the strongest foe and Sanji the 3rd one.

People want that to change because if we're honest, the fanbase which is going to get King will be the one with the biggest .... and is going to toss the other ("see, sanji is fighting the n°1, so now you have to put him in the same tier than Zoro/Luffy"// "see, zoro is getting king. sanji is a loser lmao"). Queen is a big prize, but also pale in comparison of King. Queen will bring less prestige, so nobody want him.

Each fanbase would be like "You should not complain to see your character fight Queen because :
- Zoro : He's already worn out, he does not need to fight the second major antagonist of the Beast Pirates after fighting Kaidou
- Sanji : He always was the second (or maybe third now actually) best, so it's totally normal."

The truth is, your character defeat Queen, you lose.

Hence, all this energy about who fight who at the end of Wa.

It's also largely a matter of ego (mine included I guess)

Well, while some people such as Moe, think that the treatment of Sanji Post TS is OK or near-perfect, a good part of the "S" fanbase is like "Can we have a decent fight ? Because it's been 10/12 years since we had one and he's supposed to be one of the main fighting asset of the Future Pirate King. Can we at least have him being brilliant and not perv/simp during one of the most important arc of the manga ?"

On the other side, it's clearly the arc of Zoro. He has to be one of the most, if not the most, character of Wano. He's quite living these expectations for the moment, but his fanbase still expect more (which can be understandable).


I don't know if I correctly summed up our situation right now, but for me it seems to be a fair observation of the state of this thread/sub-forum One Piece.

At least, we're not Worstgen. These people are crazy af...

 

[M3J]

I think he'll win his own fight. Otherwise why did they write in him getting a RAID suit? We went from Dressrosa thinking Sanji was some nobody with no real background who just happened upon a pirate ship. Very similar to Coby. We then learn that he's born into a family that breeds / forges their own super assassins, which is known as something of an Apex Evil Org in North Blue. We find out his dad has connections to Caesar, and Vegapunk.

I'm about 99% sure Sanji is going to fight Queen. Hell, Sanji's past is why I think he'll fight Queen. Queen seems like he might have been a corrupt WG Scientist at some point. He's modified his body and knows his way around a lab. He also knows of Judge. I think it's a perfect set up for the two. I'd find it hilarious if Queen has some grudge against Judge similar to Chinjao's grudge against Garp, and tries to take it out on Sanji who hates judge. Queen is a comedy character (while being serious too), and Sanji usually does well with those. I mean hell he had Mr. 2, Jabra, Duval, the whole Kamabakka Island situation, his first mermaid encounter was that ol' hag in Water 7 saving him at Enies Lobby. I could easily see some trope between Sanji and Queen, with Queen constantly calling him "Judge's son" and it pissing him off. I could even see Sanji tell other's to leave Queen to him.

I mentioned before Queen is a very strategic target too. He's got bioweapons at his disposal. I know certain people WANT him to fight King just for the "Kaido's second hand man" argument, but honestly I feel like King is way less consequential to the overall battle than Queen. He flies around and uses a sword. Cool. Queen unleashes horrifying pandemics, shoots lasers out of his mouth, and has zombie viruses at his disposal.

I guess for different reasons, and not necessarily to have his own fight that he wins? There are so many different possibilities, and it's not like Oda won't be random.

Would be hilarious to see the grudge taken out on Sanji, but also cool to see battle of strength and wits between the two. Sanji seems to be quite durable as despite the hits he got from Maria, he's still acting as if he's 100% fresh.

 

[HereNThere]

I 100% think Sanji will get a significant fight. Sanji has always been tiered above Franky. If Franky is fighting Sasaki, then Sanji will fight someone above him, IMO.

One of the things that gets misconstrued about me is being a Sanji hater. I'm definitely not. I just want "cool Sanji" back. Sanji in the pre-timeskip. When he came out of the water and beat the ever-living-fuck out of that Fishman Karate guy, saying that Zeff's kicks must have been level 1000, that was badass. When he talked about being the hunter when dealing with Jabra.. I feel justified in saying his New World performance is not much stacked up against his pre-TS performance. Whereas we've seen other characters reach higher peaks, Sanji has seemed to plateau until recently. To elaborate, we got to see Franky take out a Fishman in one blow, show off all his new gadgets for the Sunny and himself, then take out Baby 5 and Buffalo (who were hyped up as badass assassins at the time by Doflamingo) in a 2v1, basically toying with them in a hilarious fashion, then take out Senior Pink in a manly battle of blows. Franky is one character who I was "meh" about pre-TS, but quite like now. Another character like that is Brook. He's been one of my top-3 post timeskip. Calling BM a young lady, his hilarious new ghost abilities, his fight with that Paint Lady, and his hierarchical supremacy over homies have put him in a good place.

From the strategy perspective what I'd honestly really like to see is Sanji finding Kaido's treasure room. It's not necessarily strategic for the war, but he's now a stealth unit, essentially. This is where it gets tricky. Is Law really aiming to be Pirate King, or is he more of the Whitebeard to Luffy's Roger who will help Luffy become Pirate King, even though they're sorta rivals? If it's the latter, then I could see Sanji locating, and then Law moving the Road Poneglyph, and Kaido's Hoards of treasure onto their ships. It could be a moment of badassery for Sanji similar to when Usopp got the "five star rating" from Doflamingo (one of my favorite scenes, ever).

That should go without saying. The dynamics should remain the same up to the last chapter of the series. Don't see why it'd change at this point.

While there are some legitimate trolls out there who trash the character just for the hell of it, I think your feelings are the general attitude of a lot of folks who criticize Sanji. They like the character well enough, but he hasn't had the same cool moments as he did during his pre-time skip days and seeing him get played mostly for laughs with only a few tiny nuggets of coolness for the past decade or so just isn't cutting it. Especially when other Strawhats have had moments to really pop and shine. I like Sanji's story in WCI, but I still consider Brook the MVP of that because his two key moments were just so bright despite him not having a significant role in the plot.

If that were to happen, I'd like if Sanji found it and then used someone on the opposing faction or from the CP0 to inadvertently get the word out to Law or anyone else who could benefit from the info. His moments of tricking people usually come from him using their own advantages against them, so I'd like that to happen if he is going to go for the treasure room.

To be honest, I agree with you. I think he will definitely fight Queen because Oda is predictable in this regard.

Luffy always fight the big bad alone, Zoro the VC or the strongest foe and Sanji the 3rd one.

People want that to change because if we're honest, the fanbase which is going to get King will be the one with the biggest .... and is going to toss the other ("see, sanji is fighting the n°1, so now you have to put him in the same tier than Zoro/Luffy"// "see, zoro is getting king. sanji is a loser lmao"). Queen is a big prize, but also pale in comparison of King. Queen will bring less prestige, so nobody want him.

Each fanbase would be like "You should not complain to see your character fight Queen because :
- Zoro : He's already worn out, he does not need to fight the second major antagonist of the Beast Pirates after fighting Kaidou
- Sanji : He always was the second (or maybe third now actually) best, so it's totally normal."

The truth is, your character defeat Queen, you lose.

Hence, all this energy about who fight who at the end of Wa.

It's also largely a matter of ego (mine included I guess)

Well, while some people such as Moe, think that the treatment of Sanji Post TS is OK or near-perfect, a good part of the "S" fanbase is like "Can we have a decent fight ? Because it's been 10/12 years since we had one and he's supposed to be one of the main fighting asset of the Future Pirate King. Can we at least have him being brilliant and not perv/simp during one of the most important arc of the manga ?"

On the other side, it's clearly the arc of Zoro. He has to be one of the most, if not the most, character of Wano. He's quite living these expectations for the moment, but his fanbase still expect more (which can be understandable).


I don't know if I correctly summed up our situation right now, but for me it seems to be a fair observation of the state of this thread/sub-forum One Piece.

At least, we're not Worstgen. These people are crazy af...

And I get it, I really do. After seeing Luffy and Zoro hit them major highs on the roof, it's understandable that'd Sanji fans would want something that at least puts him within spitting range of those two still given the usual dynamics of the trio.

Given the way things were going, it's certainly an easy trap to fall into. But I honestly think people got lost way too much in the power scaling/tier listing stuff. People saw those 5 Supernova going off against the Yonkou at the roof and now suddenly everything is beneath them (in a power scaling sense). The gap between them and everyone else was now just too vast because they were facing off against the Yonkou. They see Marco taking on King and Queen simultaneously and suddenly those two are trash because they can't handle him.

But, all of those initial assumptions might not be the correct read of the actual power situation. Confirmed Rooftop Chad Killer apparently has a 92% chance to win against Hawkins. That's huge odds in Hawkin's favor against someone who just traded blows with two Yonkou and, assuredly, grew throughout the fight. Zoro, the man who cut and scarred Kaido for the first time since Oden, is probably going to go against Kaido's 2nd in command and struggle, despite showing some major feats on the roof.

I enjoy me some power-level talk, but lately, I feel it's been given more credence than the actual context of things within the series lately.

Within that context, if Sanji were to take out Queen, that would still put him in a rather good spot power-wise. True, it's not him putting his heart and soul against a Yonkou, but that's still well within a level that could be considered formidable against one in the right conditions. If they consider Sanji defeating Queen an "L" for him, then they have legit lost the plot and have let their standards explode out of control. It is in no way a loss. He has a bounty of over a billion and there was an entire chapter dedicated to showing how significant overcoming someone on that level is.

You more or less summed it up. That said, I think the last chapter pretty much showed that those were premature conclusions and I'm certain future chapters are going to keep that up.

 

[Moss Green]

To all of those initial assumptions might not be the correct read of the actual power situation. Confirmed Rooftop Chad Killer apparently has a 92% chance to win against Hawkins. That's huge odds in Hawkin's favor against someone who just traded blows with two Yonkou and, assuredly, grew throughout the fight.

I agree with you almost 100% but Killer’s survival percentage didn’t refer to his encounter specifically with Hawkins but to the raid overall. For someone who fought relatively evenly with Zoro pre-Enma that just wouldn’t make sense.

Regarding Sanji, I think the reason there’s such a discrepancy between the fans (on both sides) expectations of how he should be written and how he’s actually written come down to a lack of motivation. Oda has until recently written Sanji to be relatively close in strength to Luffy and Zoro, but between the 3 he’s the one who stands out because a lack of a clear internal motivation to be strong. That’s why the Zoro/Sanji nonsense has gotten so out of hand. I think many Zoro fans (and admittedly I am one myself so take that how you will) feel so disrespected by the, up until recently, deserved comparison to Sanji is because it feels unearned. Luffy WANTS to be strong because he knows needs to to be King of the Pirates. Zoro WANTS to be strong just for fucking strengths sake haha. But what does Sanji want? The only thing you can say consistently in the manga is women. “All Blue” is the dream attached to him, and admittedly no other Strawhat is so dream centric on the page as consistently as Luffy and Zoro, but All Blue doesn’t require him to be strong. It just requires him to get there. It’s like Nami, she doesn’t need to be strong to chart the world, she just needs someone to take her around it. It did NOT have to be this way.

At Fishman Island, and maybe really his training for the timeskip, Oda took the gags wayyyyy too far. To the point where someone seriously asked if we could compare Sanji to Harvey Weinstein. I can’t remember who it was but someone smartly said that times just have changed significantly since Oda started this manga. And Sanji’s pervy schtick just doesn’t really fly anymore socially. But the problem is now that’s his only dimension. These days nearly all of his motivation to jump into something is because of a woman. What if at some point Sanji started to shout something to the tune of “I want to be strong enough to protect all the cute girls of the world!” or “I want to be strong enough to hit on as many girls as I want!”. I think that would have fundamentally reframed the way Sanji is viewed as a character, solidified him in the minds of everyone as a fighter, AND it would have encouraged Oda to write his power ups more seriously and ended all this power scaling stuff before it began.

I guess what I’m saying is at some point Oda stopped writing them as rivals, which is sooo disappointing. He should have made Sanji a Supernova. Most of my favorite scenes in the manga came from Zoro and Sanji bickering or teaming up. I miss the old days

 

[catagon87]

I agree with you almost 100% but Killer’s survival percentage didn’t refer to his encounter specifically with Hawkins but to the raid overall. For someone who fought relatively evenly with Zoro pre-Enma that just wouldn’t make sense.

Regarding Sanji, I think the reason there’s such a discrepancy between the fans (on both sides) expectations of how he should be written and how he’s actually written come down to a lack of motivation. Oda has until recently written Sanji to be relatively close in strength to Luffy and Zoro, but between the 3 he’s the one who stands out because a lack of a clear internal motivation to be strong. That’s why the Zoro/Sanji nonsense has gotten so out of hand. I think many Zoro fans (and admittedly I am one myself so take that how you will) feel so disrespected by the, up until recently, deserved comparison to Sanji is because it feels unearned. Luffy WANTS to be strong because he knows needs to to be King of the Pirates. Zoro WANTS to be strong just for fucking strengths sake haha. But what does Sanji want? The only thing you can say consistently in the manga is women. “All Blue” is the dream attached to him, and admittedly no other Strawhat is so dream centric on the page as consistently as Luffy and Zoro, but All Blue doesn’t require him to be strong. It just requires him to get there. It’s like Nami, she doesn’t need to be strong to chart the world, she just needs someone to take her around it. It did NOT have to be this way.

At Fishman Island, and maybe really his training for the timeskip, Oda took the gags wayyyyy too far. To the point where someone seriously asked if we could compare Sanji to Harvey Weinstein. I can’t remember who it was but someone smartly said that times just have changed significantly since Oda started this manga. And Sanji’s pervy schtick just doesn’t really fly anymore socially. But the problem is now that’s his only dimension. These days nearly all of his motivation to jump into something is because of a woman. What if at some point Sanji started to shout something to the tune of “I want to be strong enough to protect all the cute girls of the world!” or “I want to be strong enough to hit on as many girls as I want!”. I think that would have fundamentally reframed the way Sanji is viewed as a character, solidified him in the minds of everyone as a fighter, AND it would have encouraged Oda to write his power ups more seriously and ended all this power scaling stuff before it began.

I guess what I’m saying is at some point Oda stopped writing them as rivals, which is sooo disappointing. He should have made Sanji a Supernova. Most of my favorite scenes in the manga came from Zoro and Sanji bickering or teaming up. I miss the old days

Yeah, when I started reading OP, any presidential candidate who claimed to be pro-gay or pro-gay-marriage would have lost by default. We're in different times now. I think the comparison of Sanji to Harvey Weinstein wasn't something to be taken too seriously and was more of a jest. I don't really get the pervy tropes in manga. Japan is way more strict on perverts than a lot of other countries are. I actually recommend any of my friends who go (and myself) to keep their hands on the bar (up in the air) on the train to avoid being accused of ass-grabbing / touching. Then when it comes to manga the perverts are kind of a comedy centerpiece and usually really popular with readers; Just look at Meliodas who fondles the fuck out of Elizabeth any time they interact. Sanji objectively isn't -that- bad (Meliodas is some Harvey Weinstein level shit). I just don't care for turning the "heroes" of the show into sex offenders.

I think Oda has a chance to redeem Sanji a bit here. We shouldn't have anymore split-crew arcs after this. There's no time for it. The split-crew stuff is part of why Sanji hasn't had amazing fights. He missed out on Dressrosa where he coulda taken out an officer in Doffy's army. WCI didn't really present itself with a way for him to "have a fight". Luffy happened upon two fights because they were isolated; Mirror World and the Forest. Freeing Momo was kind of a taste of the "old Sanji" being brought back. I think he should fight Queen here (due to Queen potentially having a relationship with Judge), then move onto the Marine/WG War and take on someone there (probably not an admiral. I think they are still a notch above most YC), then take on someone in Blackbeard's crew. If they do re-engage Big Mom I would assume Sanji's fight would be with Daifugu or Oven.

 

[HereNThere]

I agree with you almost 100% but Killer’s survival percentage didn’t refer to his encounter specifically with Hawkins but to the raid overall. For someone who fought relatively evenly with Zoro pre-Enma that just wouldn’t make sense.

Fair enough. But if the two do end up facing off against one another, Hawkins is most likely going to put up a hell of a fight to show that he's formidable. Oda has done well in keeping the Supernova relatively comparable to one another. I just don't see Killer stomping.

In terms of motivations...I mean, personally, I don't see the problem with that. mainly because there are plenty of examples of strong individuals who do not have nigh impossible aspirations. He wouldn't be an outlier in that regard. Plus, while his personal aspiration aren't on the level of theirs, he's still aware of what's at stake for all of their dreams and know that strength is necessary to get where they need to be.

Killer, Katakuri, Marco, most Admirals, and a few other people have no goals that are on the level of Pirate King or WSS. Most of them appear to have no goals beyond just being strong to support their Captains/Crew and/or protect those weaker than them. That's where I see Sanji's drive. He's strong because he wants Luffy to be Pirate King. He wants Zoro to be the WSS. He wants everyone to achieve their dream and he wants to achieve his too. The All Blue doesn't require strength, but it doesn't mean he can't be strong.

Sanji's gag has certainly not aged well at. Hell, you could even say it wasn't even acceptable when Oda had it in overdrive. I love Sanji, but he's got a lot of bad qualities. If he remained an overly romantic lady killer that he started as, that'd be fine. But Oda took the pervy trope to another level to a point where you can, unfortunately, say that he's a misogynistic transphobic character. I can't and won't defend that.

I honestly like that WCI walked back on a lot if those traits, at least, temporarily, and let him breathe as a character without that gag.

That all being said, I think Sanji announcing that he just wants to be strong to protect all women or date all women would make him more one note than he needs. He also wouldn't need that because Oda already solidified the idea that Sanji is a fighter by, you know, having him fight.

Which brings us back around to Sanji's current situation. Oda just hasn't given Sanji the fights he needs to show that he's still keeping up with the other two. I feel that I can confidently say that, if Sanji had been given one or two decisive fights during the time skip, this entire discussion would have never developed. Pre Time Skip, I cannot recall anybody questioning Sanji's motivation and how it relates to his strength compared to the other two. He was comparable to them and he showed it fairly often. But now, those two are just stacking up feats, while Sanji hasn't gotten much of anything. Power up wise, I feel that Oda has treated Sanji respectably. However, if he had more fights, I feel it would be a bit more natural than it has been.

Eh, I consider Sanji and Robin unofficial Supernova. They really should've broken the 100m beli barrier before Sabaody. But it fits when you consider Sanji's other (superior) gag of being relatively ignored and underappreciated to his annoyance. Robin doesn't have a real in story excuse.

 

[A$APBog]

I agree with you almost 100% but Killer’s survival percentage didn’t refer to his encounter specifically with Hawkins but to the raid overall. For someone who fought relatively evenly with Zoro pre-Enma that just wouldn’t make sense.

Regarding Sanji, I think the reason there’s such a discrepancy between the fans (on both sides) expectations of how he should be written and how he’s actually written come down to a lack of motivation. Oda has until recently written Sanji to be relatively close in strength to Luffy and Zoro, but between the 3 he’s the one who stands out because a lack of a clear internal motivation to be strong. That’s why the Zoro/Sanji nonsense has gotten so out of hand. I think many Zoro fans (and admittedly I am one myself so take that how you will) feel so disrespected by the, up until recently, deserved comparison to Sanji is because it feels unearned. Luffy WANTS to be strong because he knows needs to to be King of the Pirates. Zoro WANTS to be strong just for fucking strengths sake haha. But what does Sanji want? The only thing you can say consistently in the manga is women. “All Blue” is the dream attached to him, and admittedly no other Strawhat is so dream centric on the page as consistently as Luffy and Zoro, but All Blue doesn’t require him to be strong. It just requires him to get there. It’s like Nami, she doesn’t need to be strong to chart the world, she just needs someone to take her around it. It did NOT have to be this way.

At Fishman Island, and maybe really his training for the timeskip, Oda took the gags wayyyyy too far. To the point where someone seriously asked if we could compare Sanji to Harvey Weinstein. I can’t remember who it was but someone smartly said that times just have changed significantly since Oda started this manga. And Sanji’s pervy schtick just doesn’t really fly anymore socially. But the problem is now that’s his only dimension. These days nearly all of his motivation to jump into something is because of a woman. What if at some point Sanji started to shout something to the tune of “I want to be strong enough to protect all the cute girls of the world!” or “I want to be strong enough to hit on as many girls as I want!”. I think that would have fundamentally reframed the way Sanji is viewed as a character, solidified him in the minds of everyone as a fighter, AND it would have encouraged Oda to write his power ups more seriously and ended all this power scaling stuff before it began.

I guess what I’m saying is at some point Oda stopped writing them as rivals, which is sooo disappointing. He should have made Sanji a Supernova. Most of my favorite scenes in the manga came from Zoro and Sanji bickering or teaming up. I miss the old days

It was me for Weinstein haha. It was more something like "I don't know if it's fair to actually compare Sanji to a real sexual predator"

But yeah, it's not "normal" (maybe it is, idk) that some people of the "opposite" fanbase are sorry because lately Sanji was not really respected.

I have friend (who are Zoro fans) who are really enjoying Zoro in Wano but who are also feeling bad because they are also recognising that since Sabaody, it's not really a "fair fight" anymore.

However, I think the solution to that is showing Queen/King as really impressive opponents. Far more than what we saw till now. Katakuri-like impressive.

Especially Queen in order to give him a lot of credibility.

Maybe overpowered Hybrid/Awakened forms, idk.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Yeah, when I started reading OP, any presidential candidate who claimed to be pro-gay or pro-gay-marriage would have lost by default. We're in different times now. I think the comparison of Sanji to Harvey Weinstein wasn't something to be taken too seriously and was more of a jest. I don't really get the pervy tropes in manga. Japan is way more strict on perverts than a lot of other countries are. I actually recommend any of my friends who go (and myself) to keep their hands on the bar (up in the air) on the train to avoid being accused of ass-grabbing / touching. Then when it comes to manga the perverts are kind of a comedy centerpiece and usually really popular with readers; Just look at Meliodas who fondles the fuck out of Elizabeth any time they interact. Sanji objectively isn't -that- bad (Meliodas is some Harvey Weinstein level shit). I just don't care for turning the "heroes" of the show into sex offenders.

I think Oda has a chance to redeem Sanji a bit here. We shouldn't have anymore split-crew arcs after this. There's no time for it. The split-crew stuff is part of why Sanji hasn't had amazing fights. He missed out on Dressrosa where he coulda taken out an officer in Doffy's army. WCI didn't really present itself with a way for him to "have a fight". Luffy happened upon two fights because they were isolated; Mirror World and the Forest. Freeing Momo was kind of a taste of the "old Sanji" being brought back. I think he should fight Queen here (due to Queen potentially having a relationship with Judge), then move onto the Marine/WG War and take on someone there (probably not an admiral. I think they are still a notch above most YC), then take on someone in Blackbeard's crew. If they do re-engage Big Mom I would assume Sanji's fight would be with Daifugu or Oven.

I almost feel like Caesar is far more redeemable than Sanji after that Robin crap he pulled.

Reason being:

1. Caesar is a bad guy, and bad guys converting will be redeemable to an extent.
2. Whereas a supposed good guy who does something pretty bad and selfish things despite being "the good guy" and will likely pull the same crap again almost makes him irredeemable for me.

That aside, Oda's massacring Sanji's character. He's making all of his choices go on trial whether it's the cake, the nose bleeds at Fishman Island, the peeping... It's unending. He feels more like scum than a bad guy I think. I don't really like Sanji much since Wano.

 

[Ellenate]

I 100% think Sanji will get a significant fight. Sanji has always been tiered above Franky.

Sanji didn't even get a significant fight in his own arc though.


Also-

There's no way sanji could take out franky before getting blown to bits
Franky is underrated af, he should be on the roof.

 

[Moss Green]

Fair enough. But if the two do end up facing off against one another, Hawkins is most likely going to put up a hell of a fight to show that he's formidable. Oda has done well in keeping the Supernova relatively comparable to one another. I just don't see Killer stomping.

In terms of motivations...I mean, personally, I don't see the problem with that. mainly because there are plenty of examples of strong individuals who do not have nigh impossible aspirations. He wouldn't be an outlier in that regard. Plus, while his personal aspiration aren't on the level of theirs, he's still aware of what's at stake for all of their dreams and know that strength is necessary to get where they need to be.

Killer, Katakuri, Marco, most Admirals, and a few other people have no goals that are on the level of Pirate King or WSS. Most of them appear to have no goals beyond just being strong to support their Captains/Crew and/or protect those weaker than them. That's where I see Sanji's drive. He's strong because he wants Luffy to be Pirate King. He wants Zoro to be the WSS. He wants everyone to achieve their dream and he wants to achieve his too. The All Blue doesn't require strength, but it doesn't mean he can't be strong.

Sanji's gag has certainly not aged well at. Hell, you could even say it wasn't even acceptable when Oda had it in overdrive. I love Sanji, but he's got a lot of bad qualities. If he remained an overly romantic lady killer that he started as, that'd be fine. But Oda took the pervy trope to another level to a point where you can, unfortunately, say that he's a misogynistic transphobic character. I can't and won't defend that.

I honestly like that WCI walked back on a lot if those traits, at least, temporarily, and let him breathe as a character without that gag.

That all being said, I think Sanji announcing that he just wants to be strong to protect all women or date all women would make him more one note than he needs. He also wouldn't need that because Oda already solidified the idea that Sanji is a fighter by, you know, having him fight.

Which brings us back around to Sanji's current situation. Oda just hasn't given Sanji the fights he needs to show that he's still keeping up with the other two. I feel that I can confidently say that, if Sanji had been given one or two decisive fights during the time skip, this entire discussion would have never developed. Pre Time Skip, I cannot recall anybody questioning Sanji's motivation and how it relates to his strength compared to the other two. He was comparable to them and he showed it fairly often. But now, those two are just stacking up feats, while Sanji hasn't gotten much of anything. Power up wise, I feel that Oda has treated Sanji respectably. However, if he had more fights, I feel it would be a bit more natural than it has been.

Eh, I consider Sanji and Robin unofficial Supernova. They really should've broken the 100m beli barrier before Sabaody. But it fits when you consider Sanji's other (superior) gag of being relatively ignored and underappreciated to his annoyance. Robin doesn't have a real in story excuse.

The difference between Sanji and Killer/Marco/the Admirals is Sanji is one of our protagonists. Our heroes. He’s been with Luffy since East Blue and is arguably the 2nd or 3rd most developed character in the manga. 2 flashbacks! We are supposed to know his motivations because we’ve been with him on this journey from the very start. For the antagonists, unless we get a flashback for the rest like we did for Katakuri we won’t really have much to go by until Oda tells us. It’s why I’m such a big fan of flashbacks, can’t wait for Kaido’s. But we do know they have them even if they’re not obvious. It looks like Admiral’s motivations are likely based on their individual “justice” affinity’s to some extent. I forget what they all were. But from his flashback Katakuri’s, for example, is to protect his sisters.

But maybe you’re right though that might not work for Sanji given how shallow it would look next to Luffy’s and Zoro’s. Maybe it could have been a fun gag if spun right who can say. Ultimately we’re all saying the same things here though. And once our boy Swirly Brow gets his big fight and a couple feats this will be water under the bridge.

It was me for Weinstein haha. It was more something like "I don't know if it's fair to actually compare Sanji to a real sexual predator"

But yeah, it's not "normal" (maybe it is, idk) that some people of the "opposite" fanbase are sorry because lately Sanji was not really respected.

I have friend (who are Zoro fans) who are really enjoying Zoro in Wano but who are also feeling bad because they are also recognising that since Sabaody, it's not really a "fair fight" anymore.

However, I think the solution to that is showing Queen/King as really impressive opponents. Far more than what we saw till now. Katakuri-like impressive.

Especially Queen in order to give him a lot of credibility.

Maybe overpowered Hybrid/Awakened forms, idk.

Ahhhh that’s right. I knew you didn’t mean it that way it was just the fact that a discussion even arrived at a point like that just shows how far the discourse has fallen. We need Mouton Shots to bring us back. Also big A$AP fan btw

 

[HereNThere]

The difference between Sanji and Killer/Marco/the Admirals is Sanji is one of our protagonists. Our heroes. He’s been with Luffy since East Blue and is arguably the 2nd or 3rd most developed character in the manga. 2 flashbacks! We are supposed to know his motivations because we’ve been with him on this journey from the very start. For the antagonists, unless we get a flashback for the rest like we did for Katakuri we won’t really have much to go by until Oda tells us. It’s why I’m such a big fan of flashbacks, can’t wait for Kaido’s. But we do know they have them even if they’re not obvious. It looks like Admiral’s motivations are likely based on their individual “justice” affinity’s to some extent. I forget what they all were. But from his flashback Katakuri’s, for example, is to protect his sisters.

But maybe you’re right though that might not work for Sanji given how shallow it would look next to Luffy’s and Zoro’s. Maybe it could have been a fun gag if spun right who can say. Ultimately we’re all saying the same things here though. And once our boy Swirly Brow gets his big fight and a couple feats this will be water under the bridge.

It's possible that Oda can't get too into the story of All Blue because it may be tied directly to the end of the series. So Sanji's inciting motivations may be handicapped for the purpose of the story. Of course, I can't say for sure that that's the case, but it would make sense as to why his particular dream hasn't been brought up or referenced often.

Despite their different definitions of Justice, the Admirals should share the same basic motivations that most Marines should, which is to protect the general population against pirates. Katakuri not only wants to protect Brulee, but all members of his family. I think Sanji's current trajectory mirrors their motives basically. WCI basically reestablished the whole being kind thing and Oda's been pretty consistent in showing Sanji going out of his way to assist those in need by running headfirst into a fight to protect them. Tashigi and the G-5 from Vergo and the gas, The Swirly Brow Crew from Doffy, the situation with the Minks, WCI with his family, and recently, him looking out for Momo and wanting to help the Scabbards. Hell, thinking about it now, despite their constant bickering and downplaying of one another's skills, that's the one thing Zoro consistently trusts Sanji to do right.

It's not flat out stated, but that appears to be what Oda is trying to do with him.

 

[Prince13333]

Sanji didn't even get a significant fight in his own arc though.


Also-

There's no way sanji could take out franky before getting blown to bits
Franky is underrated af, he should be on the roof.

Franky couldn't even take out baby 5 and buffalo with one of his strongest attacks......

 

[Ellenate]

Franky couldn't even take out baby 5 and buffalo with one of his strongest attacks......

Franky would wipe the floor with sanji

If chopper had haki, i'd place him over sanji too

Sanji has the lamest offense of the whole crew. he's a brawler but he only uses his legs- and only one of them seem capable of preforming his strongest attack. If he gets handed a scrub/weakened opponent (...Or worse- weakened zoro aid ), in the next few chapters, the "top 3" stuff need to cease.

 

[XXGenesis]

Franky would wipe the floor with sanji

If chopper had haki, i'd place him over sanji too

Sanji has the lamest offense of the whole crew. he's a brawler but he only uses his legs- and only one of them seem capable of preforming his strongest attack. If he gets handed a scrub/weakened opponent (...Or worse- weakened zoro aid ), in the next few chapters, the "top 3" stuff need to cease.

No. Franky has the firepower to K.O Sanji. Not the skills.

So does Chopper in his Monster point.

Sanji skills vastly overshadows their own. Only stay that’s close is firepower/ striking power.

 

[Prince13333]

No. Franky has the firepower to K.O Sanji. Not the skills.

So does Chopper in his Monster point.

Sanji skills vastly overshadows their own. Only stay that’s close is firepower/ striking power.

Bro Franky doesn't even have the power to KO Sanji..... What are we even Talking about ? We literally saw Baby 5 And Buffalo some of the weakest Doffys Executives Tank one of this dudes strongest attacks. He even Calls it his ultimate weapon........ and they Tank that shit. Usopp and Nami had to use Seastone to subdue Baby 5 and Buffalo lmao....And Chopper? Dont even get me started on him.... Y'all talk about this dude Sanji when a majority of crew is lacking even worse than Sanji is.



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--- Double Post Merged, May 2, 2021, Original Post Date: May 2, 2021 ---

Franky would wipe the floor with sanji

If chopper had haki, i'd place him over sanji too

Sanji has the lamest offense of the whole crew. he's a brawler but he only uses his legs- and only one of them seem capable of preforming his strongest attack. If he gets handed a scrub/weakened opponent (...Or worse- weakened zoro aid ), in the next few chapters, the "top 3" stuff need to cease.

Offense doesn't matter if you dont know how to fight...... Franky has piss poor combat skill, and his offense isn't even that great for someone who uses weapons. You talking about Sanji getting aid against Queen or king, When Franky is likely gonna get help from Denjiro to defeat Sasaki a Tobi Roppo......... This Dude is in his strongest form and Sasaki is still in Full Zoan form and hasn't even used his sword on Franky...... And Chopper having Haki doesn't matter cause he has no fighting skill...... Did you forget Perospero solo'd Chopper and Brook together???

 

[Ellenate]

some of the weakest Doffys Executives Tank one of this dudes strongest attacks.

Tanking is when an attack to has no affect, not what you just showed.

Franky has piss poor combat skill

theatrics =/= combat skill

With your reasoning, mihawk is less skilled than zoro, cause he doesn't put on a performance when swinging his sword.

...when your only attack is kicking, you have to throw in theatrics.

You talking about Sanji getting aid against Queen or king

If sanji gets aided, when fighting either of them, his win is invalidated.

Did you forget Perospero solo'd Chopper and Brook together???

Why you lying?

Brook & chopper were up against an army of goons, Perospero, and Katakuri all at the same time.

Sanji would get rocked in the same scenario.

 

[A$APBog]

Bro Franky doesn't even have the power to KO Sanji..... What are we even Talking about ? We literally saw Baby 5 And Buffalo some of the weakest Doffys Executives Tank one of this dudes strongest attacks. He even Calls it his ultimate weapon........ and they Tank that shit. Usopp and Nami had to use Seastone to subdue Baby 5 and Buffalo lmao....And Chopper? Dont even get me started on him.... Y'all talk about this dude Sanji when a majority of crew is lacking even worse than Sanji is.



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--- Double Post Merged, May 2, 2021, Original Post Date: May 2, 2021 ---

Offense doesn't matter if you dont know how to fight...... Franky has piss poor combat skill, and his offense isn't even that great for someone who uses weapons. You talking about Sanji getting aid against Queen or king, When Franky is likely gonna get help from Denjiro to defeat Sasaki a Tobi Roppo......... This Dude is in his strongest form and Sasaki is still in Full Zoan form and hasn't even used his sword on Franky...... And Chopper having Haki doesn't matter cause he has no fighting skill...... Did you forget Perospero solo'd Chopper and Brook together???

He's obviously trolling (even if he's going to say the contrary) and you're falling right into it...

--- Double Post Merged, May 2, 2021 ---

But he's right tho, if Sanji is aided, his win is invalidated.

It's like validating the win of Zoro against Pica or Luffy win against Kaidou. It's a complete nonsense.