Discussion Sanji Discussion Thread

[King Moe]

Doesn't look like the blade had haki, and Sanji kicked the flat side, apparently, and it kinda looks like he used haki or the black version of CoA.

It does matter. If Luffy or Sanji fought Daz Bones, they'd have lost. If either fights a fast swordsman with hardening, they'll likely lose. It's not stupid, otherwise why haven't Sanji or Luffy's enemies been swordsmen?

Kaku carries swords, so he's still a swordsman. He recently became a devil fruit user, so he opted to fight with that rather than use swords all the way.

It wasn't even much of a fight, much less a big one, Zoro was exhausted and hurt and coming off a fight against Ryuuma and Oars. Highly doubt most characters could take on one undead giant and a shichibukai in a span of few hours. Even if you consider the Pacifista and Kuma, that's still probably two out of twelve or thirteen arcs.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 21, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 21, 2020 ---

I think that's what Moe was saying

Nah, it was blade end. What you mean? He was trying to cut down the ship and Sanji block it with ease. It's confirmed in databooks Daifuku can use COA and seeing his Genie has same body dynamic of Haki Armor like Vergo and Pica shown with same shading, pretty sure he using Haki when using his DF.

Actually if it confirms that Zoro had an 'Haki' Moment, then they would have beaten Daz Bones the same way with activating their Haki same way. There is also theory going around that Sanji broke Haki barrier when using DF due to similarities to how Luffy use Red Hawk and ignite flames like that. So they have a lot going for them and no, they wouldn't lose to swordsman even with Hardening. Pretty sure that is illogical the moment they set foot in Wano and have to deal with weapon opponents. Doesn't make sense for them to be unable to defeat them as having weapons doesn't make you above others.

From how he fights, he was using his body more than his swords especially his strongest attack is just him breakdancing and spinning his body to enhance his CP9 attack from his legs, not his swordsmanship. He not really more swordsman in the long run with how it all played out in the end.

It was a fight since Zoro did his best against him and failed still. Even full health Zoro would still lose against him. Swordsman doesn't put you at pinnacle of strength as that isn't how Oda is writing it. Also they aren't only non-swordsman Zoro face and had trouble with as well. Just being honest to you.

 

[M3J]

The blade does not look like it was coated in hardening, while Sanji's leg looked like it was.

Zoro had a haki moment with his swords. Luffy and Sanji do not have swords or knives. Haki sword vs. haki body part will result in haki body part being injured, probably.

Are you not reading the whole thing? I mentioned speed and haki level. Mihawk is a master swordsman, but if he wasn't fast or had great vision (CoO?), then even Luffy could stand a chance. Likewise, if he didn't know how to use haki, then Zoro now could probably beat him even with Mihawk's black sword.

Still a swordsman, still used swords. Would have probably used swords if he didn't eat the devil fruit hours prior to the fight.

Full health Zoro would have lost, yes, but that'd have been an actual fight. The fight that happened can't be considered a fight, but a short skirmish where Zoro gave up as he was too hurt and exhausted to keep fighting.

Okay, who else? Enel? That was Luffy's opponent, not Zoro's. I don't remember if Zoro fought a swordsman or a CoA user, though, in Skypea.

 

[HereNThere]

It's well within Luffy and Sanji's ability to fight swordsmen since Haki and Hardening is a thing. They usually won't however because that's Zoro's entire thing.

However, if they to against any swordsmen with haki proficiency equal to or greater than theirs will most likely not turn out well for them, as we saw with Luffy vs Cracker. Fake Cracker was unable to pierce Luffy's Hardening despite using Hardening himself. Real Cracker almost cut the through Luffy's Hardened arm.

That being said, if Sanji were to go against such a swordsman, I imagine the series would portray it similarly to how it portrayed Luffy. Capable of dealing with it, but maybe it leads to a slight disadvantage later on.

 

[nik87]

Luffy/Sanji vs master swordsman can never be a good fight and if Oda were to draw it, he would have to take a dump on whoever is the swordsman.
The fight would go in either of the 2 directions: either the swordmen would miss every single time or we would have MF level of BS and damage from clean slices would be ignored and fight would go on like nothing happened.

Since Luffy and Sanji are the main characters, either of the two options works. In case the swordsman misses everything, ask yourselves: Is that a good fight that the audience wants to see and Oda wants to draw? If your answer is Yes, you might think it over.
In case the damage is ignored like in Marineford that again is nullifying the purpose of swordsmen, even for Shounen levels of damage, that would just be bad writing. That's why Luffy and Sanji never fight swordmen and never will. In case of Cracker, that's why Luffy was fighting the biscuits instead of a sword.

Oda can justify hits from biscuits, he cant from the swords unless he ignores the damage completely like in MF.
So, the choice is between either the fight not happening or having a bad fight and Oda has chosen it not happening for 22 years.

 

[Pirate Queen]

It's well within Luffy and Sanji's ability to fight swordsmen since Haki and Hardening is a thing. They usually won't however because that's Zoro's entire thing.

However, if they to against any swordsmen with haki proficiency equal to or greater than theirs will most likely not turn out well for them, as we saw with Luffy vs Cracker. Fake Cracker was unable to pierce Luffy's Hardening despite using Hardening himself. Real Cracker almost cut the through Luffy's Hardened arm.

That being said, if Sanji were to go against such a swordsman, I imagine the series would portray it similarly to how it portrayed Luffy. Capable of dealing with it, but maybe it leads to a slight disadvantage later on.

Well put. Luffy has been confronted by multiple swordsmen and that has never been the deciding factor in an of those fight.

Swords are no different than any other fighting style in this manga.

Swordsmen fight swordsmen for the simple fact that it makes the most sense, not because Swords>Ecerything else or we wouldnt have people like Garp, Sengoku, Aokiji, Akainu, Or Kaido around.

With enough defense/offense/df mastery swords are just like anyother tool.

Well put together posts, bud

 

[M3J]

Isn't Gear 4 of a higher level?

It's well within Luffy and Sanji's ability to fight swordsmen since Haki and Hardening is a thing. They usually won't however because that's Zoro's entire thing.

However, if they to against any swordsmen with haki proficiency equal to or greater than theirs will most likely not turn out well for them, as we saw with Luffy vs Cracker. Fake Cracker was unable to pierce Luffy's Hardening despite using Hardening himself. Real Cracker almost cut the through Luffy's Hardened arm.

That being said, if Sanji were to go against such a swordsman, I imagine the series would portray it similarly to how it portrayed Luffy. Capable of dealing with it, but maybe it leads to a slight disadvantage later on.

If Luffy went up against Mihawk, he'd likely be sliced and diced because Mihawk seems to have the ability to cut through almost anything. Same with Sanji. Theory would likely hold true for Shiryuu too, if we go by hype and the fact that he was a feared jailer who was locked up (and managed to beat Hannibal after being freed?) and is on Blackbeard's crew. I forgot if I mentioned this, but Daz Bones would be a great example. Would have beat Luffy and Sanji prior to the timeskip, but he'd be wrecked after the timeskip because the pre-timeskip Daz didn't have haki to augment his blade body against Luffy and Sanji's haki.

Plus, there's no point in having a swordsman fight a non-swordsman, especially if Shiryuu's the strongest swordsman on the crew. He'd be Zoro's opponent. It was a bit odd seeing Katakuri fight Luffy when we knew he wasn't the captain/boss of the crew.

 

[King Moe]

Sanji vs any master swordsman is something Oda will never draw, it simply isnt doable without ruining the manga.

It wouldn't ruin manga at all. Especially we are in Wano and everyone probably will face enemies with weapons. Foolish to think they can't beat specific someone when they need to get stronger to overcome many different type of enemies.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 21, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 21, 2020 ---

The blade does not look like it was coated in hardening, while Sanji's leg looked like it was.

Zoro had a haki moment with his swords. Luffy and Sanji do not have swords or knives. Haki sword vs. haki body part will result in haki body part being injured, probably.

Are you not reading the whole thing? I mentioned speed and haki level. Mihawk is a master swordsman, but if he wasn't fast or had great vision (CoO?), then even Luffy could stand a chance. Likewise, if he didn't know how to use haki, then Zoro now could probably beat him even with Mihawk's black sword.

Still a swordsman, still used swords. Would have probably used swords if he didn't eat the devil fruit hours prior to the fight.

Full health Zoro would have lost, yes, but that'd have been an actual fight. The fight that happened can't be considered a fight, but a short skirmish where Zoro gave up as he was too hurt and exhausted to keep fighting.

Okay, who else? Enel? That was Luffy's opponent, not Zoro's. I don't remember if Zoro fought a swordsman or a CoA user, though, in Skypea.

Invisible Haki is a thing and still strong, so probably is especially how easily he cut the ships early.

They don't need weapons to get the 'Haki Moment', they bodies can do it since it's from within the body, not weapons. They would brutalize Daz Bones the same way.

Mihawk is on lvl Luffy wasn't on yet, so make sense why he was stronger, but doesn't mean going forward Luffy can never beat no one with swords or weapons when he already done this many times. You use bad example with Mihawk one.

Not really when you don't use your swords for best attacks and more body and DF. Again not true swordsmans.

Fight is fight if it lasted more than several seconds especially it went on for a bit before he beaten everyone. That was a fight and Zoro would lose either way whether full health or not.

Zoro fought him though and lost badly to him. He has face non-swordsman and get beaten the same and Oda allowed fights out of what they are used to. Don't see it illogical he won't do same thing again for characters especially sword-fill place like Wano.

Thinking it won't happen, will hurt your opinion on that subject. Expect it to happen.

 

[Pirate Queen]

With this Roger vs Whitebeard Clash we have further evidence for my arguement. Roger's and Whitebeard haki were so powerful that their clash didnt even need contact.

It was the strength of their haki.

Sanji with strong enough CoA could clash with a sword user without even touching the sword.

And while this is still a theory that needs some fleshing out, on its merit it makes complete sense.

In the end I do think Shiryu's invisibility vs Sanji's invisibility will come into play but also Swordsmen vs Swordsmen

Its tricky maybe they switch out in the course of the fight?

Idk...

 

[nik87]

In the end I do think Shiryu's invisibility vs Sanji's invisibility will come into play but also Swordsmen vs Swordsmen
Its tricky maybe they switch out in the course of the fight?
Idk...

But what good does it do if two invisible guys fight? They are invisible to each other as well, they are clueless like all others too.
How would they know where to attack each other? If presence detection is the answer that works for people who aren't invisible as well.

 

[hokageji]

n the end I do think Shiryu's invisibility vs Sanji's invisibility will come into play but also Swordsmen vs Swordsmen

two people with invisibility abilities fighting is something i can see Togashi do, but not Oda at this point....

 

[HereNThere]

Isn't Gear 4 of a higher level?

Cracker was capable of piercing it while using hardening. He conveniently didn't use it after that initial cut he made on Luffy.

If Luffy went up against Mihawk, he'd likely be sliced and diced because Mihawk seems to have the ability to cut through almost anything. Same with Sanji. Theory would likely hold true for Shiryuu too, if we go by hype and the fact that he was a feared jailer who was locked up (and managed to beat Hannibal after being freed?) and is on Blackbeard's crew. I forgot if I mentioned this, but Daz Bones would be a great example. Would have beat Luffy and Sanji prior to the timeskip, but he'd be wrecked after the timeskip because the pre-timeskip Daz didn't have haki to augment his blade body against Luffy and Sanji's haki.

Plus, there's no point in having a swordsman fight a non-swordsman, especially if Shiryuu's the strongest swordsman on the crew. He'd be Zoro's opponent. It was a bit odd seeing Katakuri fight Luffy when we knew he wasn't the captain/boss of the crew.

Of course. I currently consider Mihawk as one of those individuals who have equal or greater than Haki proficiency than Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji, so none of them would stand a chance against him right now. Shiryu has a bit more leeway than Mihawk as we have no real idea where he lies. His sole hype indicator is the fact that Blackbeard is most likely one of the final antagonist and will be the penultimate villain, if not the ultimate villain. When that point does finally come around, Shiryu will probably be a contender for Mihawk's title, but until then, we don't know.

I don't see Shiryu fighting Sanji. Hell, I personally think Sanji will lose the ability to turn invisible after this arc.

If he does keep it and Sanji does have a skirmish with Shiryu, Oda better do a damn good job of portraying the fight and giving a good reason for why the hell these two are fighting while invisible, despite the fact that CoO is a well established and common ability among top tiers.

 

[M3J]

Cracker was capable of piercing it while using hardening. He conveniently didn't use it after that initial cut he made on Luffy.



Of course. I currently consider Mihawk as one of those individuals who have equal or greater than Haki proficiency than Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji, so none of them would stand a chance against him right now. Shiryu has a bit more leeway than Mihawk as we have no real idea where he lies. His sole hype indicator is the fact that Blackbeard is most likely one of the final antagonist and will be the penultimate villain, if not the ultimate villain. When that point does finally come around, Shiryu will probably be a contender for Mihawk's title, but until then, we don't know.

I don't see Shiryu fighting Sanji. Hell, I personally think Sanji will lose the ability to turn invisible after this arc.

If he does keep it and Sanji does have a skirmish with Shiryu, Oda better do a damn good job of portraying the fight and giving a good reason for why the hell these two are fighting while invisible, despite the fact that CoO is a well established and common ability among top tiers.

So Cracker's haki was strong enough to stab and slice Gear 4 Luffy? Hmm

Mihawk is an example of what I'm talking about, I think. Haki matters, and Luffy would lose quickly to Mihawk if he used his haki fist against haki sword. Whereas, Luffy would likely beat Hachi as it'd be normal swords against haki, regardless of 8-sword style. Or hell, Luffy would probably beat swordsman Kaku if Kaku's haki is inferior. I'm assuming CoA can get stronger/harder though.


Maybe the suit and devil fruit makes it difficult for CoO to work? Unless the raid suit has never gone up against a CoO user.

 

[Luke Beifong]

I have an ideia for the fights of Zoro and Sanji against the BB crew. What if Zoro opponent, Shiryu, push Zoro CoO to the limit and make Zoro Haki stronger in the color he has more difficult? And Sanji opponent is the same thing, he push Sanji CoA to the next level?

 

[hokageji]

But what good does it do if two invisible guys fight? They are invisible to each other as well, they are clueless like all others too.
How would they know where to attack each other? If presence detection is the answer that works for people who aren't invisible as well.

I think Sanji vs Shiriyuu is unlikely simple cos its not gonna a matter of swordsmanship and just on invisibility skill... we've already seen Sanji beat the same DF user before...

On the other hand, for Zoro to fight Shiriyuu, Shiriyuu must be a challenge as a swordsmen.... the only way i can see this happen is if Shiriyuu takes down Mihawk and gains the WSS title, or has an ability that poses as a challenge to swordsmen.. I still dont see invisilbility alone as a challenge to Zoro.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

Just curious, during the arc of baratie, when luffy accidentally reflected a cannon ball to zeff
If zeff was actually killed from that, how do you think sanji will react to that? Its actually weird how sanji didnt seem to be bothered to see his beloved literally hit by a cannon ball

 

[Fox666]

Just curious, during the arc of baratie, when luffy accidentally reflected a cannon ball to zeff
If zeff was actually killed from that, how do you think sanji will react to that? Its actually weird how sanji didnt seem to be bothered to see his beloved literally hit by a cannon ball

If Zeff died, Sanji would swear Luffy as his enemy. But Zeff wouldn't die from just that...

Just a cannon ball wouldn't upset Sanji, since they are used to stuff like that on Baratie.

 

[hokageji]

If zeff was actually killed from that, how do you think sanji will react to that? Its actually weird how sanji didnt seem to be bothered to see his beloved literally hit by a cannon ball

Didnt we see Zeff actually stop bullets with his fake leg? Also, when luffy deflected it, he didnt have any idea its gonna land where Zeff was sleeping.

So Sanji not reacting isn't that weird...

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

Unpopular opinion but i think sanji idea about giving food to everyone is too extreme. Its like the justice principle of akainu.
Context should have mattered too, sanji shouldnt give food to someone like don krieg,gin, or big mom.
It turns out okay in the manga, but in reality things could turn really ugly from being too naive like that

 

[jaymizzo]

Unpopular opinion but i think sanji idea about giving food to everyone is too extreme. Its like the justice principle of akainu.
Context should have mattered too, sanji shouldnt give food to someone like don krieg,gin, or big mom.
It turns out okay in the manga, but in reality things could turn really ugly from being too naive like that

It happens in reality too, hypocritical oath (Doctors/Surgeons etc).

 

[nik87]

hypocritical oath (Doctors/Surgeons etc).

Hippocratic oath.*

sanji shouldnt give food to someone like don krieg,gin, or big mom.

I understand why he did it with Gin and Krieg, they were starving and no threat at that point.
However, Big Mom had food all around her and was a constant threat.