Discussion Sanji Discussion Thread

[Ellenate]

That excuse can be made for any character.

Yes, it can.

Strategy isn't Oda's forte. If it was, we'd have things like naval battles.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Yes, it can.

Strategy isn't Oda's forte. If it was, we'd have things like naval battles.

Your answer is so reductionist as it makes a plain blanket statement without even expanding on how it's just being in the right place.

I'm not even sure how you can use the excuse "being in the right place" regarding outsmarting Crocodile. That has nothing to do with being in the right place, that's just being intelligent. Luffy could have been in that same situation and said the dumbest thing possible or do the dumbest thing possible.

Naval sea battles also aren't what determine strategy, lots of things require strategy and thinking. It's like saying "if strategy was his forte... chess would be a part of the series". No, many things require strategy.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

meh, most of that was just being in the right place at the right time.






it's definitely better than what we've been given... i'm wary of where oda will go with it though.

maybe setting up a "usopp sword" situation... or maybe sanji will just hide zoro under a pile of trash next chapter?

nope 2 of those was sanji going out of his way with his crew mates around , they didn’t think about opening the gate of justice and destroying the engine , they didn’t think of it , sanji thought 2 steps ahead and went to do that

with me prince and the sea train , some of it was luck
But can you imagine luffy Zoro even thinking of the mr prince scheme ? Especially the one at the casino ? Nope
Ussop potentially but he might break his nerve to quick , and maybe nami cause she’s clever but I’m 50/50 on her pulling it off , Robin definitely could
But like I said it was a recurring action for sanji to be the smart smooth spy like character for the straw hats and that’s all gone now

 

[Ellenate]

Your answer is so reductionist as it makes a plain blanket statement without even expanding on how it's just being in the right place.

It should be commonsense... The post you liked (@Lord Traffy Law 's) even called that moment luck.

nope 2 of those

Most/half... *shrug*

can you imagine luffy Zoro

If they're the bar, how intelligent is he really?

it was a recurring action for sanji to be the smart smooth spy like character for the straw hats

Yes, moments the plot lobbed at him. He wasn't on the sea train looking at blueprints of enies lobby.

I remember reading/watching it thinking "that came out of nowhere". tbh you could say that oda was just alleviating plotholes with him (...but i don't really remember the context of those moments).

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

It should be commonsense... The post you liked (@Lord Traffy Law 's) even called that moment luck.

Like I said, your answers are reductionist. What you call common-sense is an excuse for not having good reason to support your statement, again with your reductionist answers that explain nothing. Anyone can say anything that makes no sense and just say "common sense".

Just because he called it luck doesn't mean it's luck.

Just because a comment is liked doesn't mean everything is agreed with. Either way, your criteria is invalid. Could like a comment for any reason under the sun. I just happen to agree with the gist of his point, doesn't mean every detail is agreed with.

Intelligence is not luck when the reasoning behind actions are coherent and deliberate.

Luck is doing things without any idea of what the results will be... Intelligence is calculated actions taken for a specific result... that's What Sanji does or rather, did pre-skip. If you call that luck? I think you have your definition of luck not in line with the actual definition.

--- Double Post Merged, May 8, 2021, Original Post Date: May 8, 2021 ---

@Ellenate

Your comment really makes no sense when in fact...

Sanji knew the gates opening would stop the whirlpool

He went MIA during the chaos after this.

Sanji anticipated that the whirlpools could help create chaos which they'd be able to use to their advantage.

To claim this sort of reasoning is luck is absurd. That's intelligence at its finest. He made deliberate actions:

1. They were outnumbered.
2. Outmatched.
3. Trapped.

And he took advantage of the situation to produce the best outcome possible. He used chaos to take advantage of the overwhelming numbers and that's what led to the Navy missing their shots and the SH's ultimately escaping given that Nami's ability to navigate and read the currents would aid in their escaping after he closed the gate.

Sanji essentially led to the crew escaping and trapping the Buster Call in Enies Lobby, thus why the title is called a complete defeat.

There's no explanation you can give that would explain this as luck when this is intelligence.

 

[Ellenate]

To claim

You're mixing stuff up. I pointed to "Prince/sea train" being luck.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Sanji easily used to be the most tactical and strategical strawhat , super perceptive and clever

how? the dude just kicks.

You're mixing stuff up. I pointed to "Prince/sea train" being luck.

You're simply backtracking.

You can't dismiss the fact Enies Lobby showed intelligence, so now you have to move the goal post.

Nonetheless, you're wrong since your statement was Sanji just kicks when Traffy said he used to be tactical and strategic.

We've seen evidence of his tactical ingenuity and intelligence, therefore, your claims are simply invalid.

Even in circumstances that he's there by luck, his ability to take advantage of those situations is still intelligence.

Your argument is bad.

If your conclusion is he just kicks, then maybe Sanji's choices are something you just don't understand and that may well be the case since you don't seem to grasp the dynamics of his actions.

What Luffy does 9/10 times is not with thinking, he acts on impulse and instinct; Sanji on the other hand tends to think things through logically and then take action as we see even here before he boards the sea-train.

Initially, your argument was he just kicks, then the sea train/little garden when even in those situations, he still showcased levels of intelligence and displayed a thought process of someone who is cerebral. He's not just making blind decisions which is what intelligent and tactical people do.

 

[Ellenate]

You're simply backtracking.

You spewed a whole word salad for something i never said...

You're too caught up with what you think is happening instead of just seeing the trees for the forest.

Your argument

Not every post here is setup for some long-winded debate.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

You spewed a whole word salad for something i never said...

You're too caught up with what you think is happening instead of just seeing the trees for the forest.





Not every post here is setup for some long-winded debate.

Nope.

Just pointing out your assessment was not valid, lol.

Your entire point was that Sanji doesn't showcase intelligence and only kicks. That's the assessment of someone who looks at pictures and doesn't read.

--- Double Post Merged, May 9, 2021, Original Post Date: May 9, 2021 ---

Even in Skypiea, Sanji was the one who encouraged Usopp to using his belt to get to the ship which he wasn't sure they could do.

They got on the ship, Sanji gave instructions to go find Nami without letting Usopp know his own intentions. Usopp initially assumed they were both going for Nami by splitting up since Enel's Observation was good enough to sense them. Sanji used that fact as a red herring in order to do something else.

Usopp goes to save Nami, and he does. Sanji on the other hand with Usopp heading towards Nami and trying to save her.... his goal was to sacrifice himself, but also destroy Enel's ship in the process.

His plan was brilliant:

1. He used Enel's power against him with distraction.
2. He outsmarted Usopp in order to save time and not have Usopp argue about sacrificing himself.
3. He saved Nami and Usopp in the process.

The claim that Sanji just kicks and wasn't intelligent and tactical pre-skip? That's humour.

As crappy as Sanji's character is now and as much as there are certain people who have no objective or constructive criticism and throw the baby out with the bath water... there have been good aspects of the series even in light of the bad.

It's not remotely debatable as to how effective Sanji was with his intelligence pre-skip.

 

[Ellenate]

Nope.

whatever... waste your time.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

whatever... waste your time.

Yep, and you continue making claims you can't remotely prove, lol.

Sanji just kicks... lacks intelligence.... but ignore Skypiea, Little Garden, Enies Lobby. Your points are so valid.

 

[hokageji]

Sanji is always been smart and intelligent.. man, such a good character pre timeskip, it all went south after Kamabakka kingdom...

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Sanji is always been smart and intelligent.. man, such a good character pre timeskip, it all went south after Kamabakka kingdom...

Oda’s writing cause honestly sanji spying and stealth abilities should have gone up even more considering an entire island was after him
Could have been even been an awesome tale of sanji appreciating Okamas despite their unorthodox style
Was a big opportunity for sanji and Oda

 

[hokageji]

Oda’s writing cause honestly sanji spying and stealth abilities should have gone up even more considering an entire island was after him
Could have been even been an awesome tale of sanji appreciating Okamas despite their unorthodox style
Was a big opportunity for sanji and Oda

this is something that i agree hasn't aged well.... everyone else had a good relationship with their islanders but not Sanji, he always looked down upon them. i think when it actually released, i was not very entertained by it but brushed it off like a gag... but its not improved upon at all and makes him look pretty bad..

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Sanji is always been smart and intelligent.. man, such a good character pre timeskip, it all went south after Kamabakka kingdom...

If Sanji was stronger and less pervy, he would easily be my favourite character.

Pre-skip Sanji, no excessive pervy behaviour, and actually strong. Zoro is somewhat bland (though I like him a lot), but the fact he's not so annoying makes him more likeable despite being less colourful. If Sanji retained his colour, lost the pervy 24/7 heatedness, retained intelligence and was strong... easily a favourite character. He has so much potential.

 

[Drayenko]

He has so much potential.

Potential. In a 1000 chapter series. I find that a little laughable.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Potential. In a 1000 chapter series. I find that a little laughable.

Don't think the number of chapters matter.

1,000 chapters barely amounts to 2 years in the series.

Either way, that's irrelevant.

Also seems you don't know what potential means. Potential simply means in this context he could be a much better character.

What's laughable is the idea a character cannot be better.

 

[Prince13333]

If Sanji was stronger and less pervy, he would easily be my favourite character.

Pre-skip Sanji, no excessive pervy behaviour, and actually strong. Zoro is somewhat bland (though I like him a lot), but the fact he's not so annoying makes him more likeable despite being less colourful. If Sanji retained his colour, lost the pervy 24/7 heatedness, retained intelligence and was strong... easily a favourite character. He has so much potential.

I think Sanji's strength is the same as it always has been he's just fighting stronger people than he used to, Vergo was the 2nd strongest and honestly Zoro's opponent and Doffy was Luffy and Laws opponent. Its Basically like if Sanji had a clash with Daz Bones and Crocodile . I dont think pre timeskip Sanji would stand a chance if he fought any of Zoro's opponents tbh . Sanji just needs to fight characters of his tier, For example , switch Vergo out with Trebol and im sure sanji would have beat trebols ass, If Raid Suit Sanji clashed against Queen instead of King to save momonuske, Sanji would have looked a lot better. Post Timeskip Sanji has to stop swinging above his weight.

--- Double Post Merged, May 12, 2021, Original Post Date: May 12, 2021 ---

nope 2 of those was sanji going out of his way with his crew mates around , they didn’t think about opening the gate of justice and destroying the engine , they didn’t think of it , sanji thought 2 steps ahead and went to do that

with me prince and the sea train , some of it was luck
But can you imagine luffy Zoro even thinking of the mr prince scheme ? Especially the one at the casino ? Nope
Ussop potentially but he might break his nerve to quick , and maybe nami cause she’s clever but I’m 50/50 on her pulling it off , Robin definitely could
But like I said it was a recurring action for sanji to be the smart smooth spy like character for the straw hats and that’s all gone now

I mean the aspect of Sanji Saving People and retrieving information is still there its just people dont appreciate how its done

Its mainly Sanji coming out of nowhere kicking some guy and saving someone. Which is a trend that originated in Enies Lobby with the Sanji, Usopp Hunter moment. Oda just continued that trend into post timeskip. And its still cool but I guess people want something more strategic and thought out from sanji.

.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

I think Sanji's strength is the same as it always has been he's just fighting stronger people than he used to, Vergo was the 2nd strongest and honestly Zoro's opponent and Doffy was Luffy and Laws opponent. Its Basically like if Sanji had a clash with Daz Bones and Crocodile . I dont think pre timeskip Sanji would stand a chance if he fought any of Zoro's opponents tbh . Sanji just needs to fight characters of his tier, For example , switch Vergo out with Trebol and im sure sanji would have beat trebols ass, If Raid Suit Sanji clashed against Queen instead of King to save momonuske, Sanji would have looked a lot better. Post Timeskip Sanji has to stop swinging above his weight.

--- Double Post Merged, May 12, 2021, Original Post Date: May 12, 2021 ---

I mean the aspect of Sanji Saving People and retrieving information is still there its just people dont appreciate how its done

Its mainly Sanji coming out of nowhere kicking some guy and saving someone. Which is a trend that originated in Enies Lobby with the Sanji, Usopp Hunter moment. Oda just continued that trend into post timeskip. And its still cool but I guess people want something more strategic and thought out from sanji.

.

Now post the panels after , pre time skip sanji coming clutch moments are allowed to sit and be enjoyed
Post timeskip sanji saves someone and ends up being needed being saved or immobilized immediately after , it kinda under cuts the coolness of those scenes
He kinda just mildly inconveniences them and has become a bit of a jobber to show that the enemies are strong and dangerous

 

[Drayenko]

Don't think the number of chapters matter.

1,000 chapters barely amounts to 2 years in the series.

Either way, that's irrelevant.

Also seems you don't know what potential means. Potential simply means in this context he could be a much better character.

What's laughable is the idea a character cannot be better.

Potential, in the context of 24 years of serialization, means bullshitting yourself. Ignoring the way the writer operates and how the series has been built up, yes, it's laughable. There's nothing indicating that the character will go in the direction you are trying to state. His character traits have always been the same and again, after 24 years of writing a character a certain way, most likely won't change.

Can he change? Sure... with an apocalyptic time-skip 20 years into the future you can do whatever, we all know that's not going to happen.

If there was a time when/where characters evolved, or seemed to do so in One Piece, after the time skip that's gone to hell, and Sanji is the prime example of that. If we take power levels out of the equation, all these characters do is regress.