Discussion Sanji Discussion Thread

[M3J]

I mean isn’t that how People identified Luffy as the strongest, Zoro as the 2nd and Sanji as the 3rd?


D: If Zoro and Sanji had a serious fight, who would win? Zoro beat Mr.1 , so... he's stronger, right...?

O: Whoa! That was surprising... I thought you said "If Zoro and Sanji had a dick fight"...You have to be careful what you say. Someone might hear something totally wrong... Okay, see you next time!!

(serious = gachinko; dick = ga chinko)

I feel like they mostly saw swords as = dangerous, or assumed Zoro's opponents were the strongest after the captain just because of Mr. 1 being clearly superior to Bon Clay thanks to his fruit power.

It's been the pattern for their scaling thus far. I personally don't see it changing now.

Has it been, or has it just been people's assumptions?

 

[HereNThere]

Has it been, or has it just been people's assumptions?

I mean, why would it be an assumption?

Oda has gone out of his way to highlight that Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji are the 3 strongest crew members with the most combat potential. More often than not, they fight the three strongest antagonists in whichever group they are combating. There are degrees to this, such as Kaku and Jabra having a miniscule differencein power, but at face value, that's the hierarchy.

Even if you want to argue Jinbe's inclusion muddles things, before his joining that was still very much the case.

 

[M3J]

It seems more like assumptions because from what I've seen in Part I, Luffy wouldn't have been able to beat some of Zoro's opponents simply because swords, unless he could do stuff like break Daz Bones' steel body parts. I'm looking at matchups as well, and Sanji wouldn't be able to take on most of Zoro's opponents that could keep up with his speed or has good defense.

 

[McNuss]

Only Zoro is. Readers just don't want to admit.

Sanji likes all kinds of woman.

Really forgot this existed. Oda talks about penises alot in SBS.

It's been the pattern for their scaling thus far. I personally don't see it changing now.

The pattern is a lie the community is telling themselves. Pre-Diable Jambe Sanji could neither beat Monster Point Chopper nor Nico Robin. Arguably with Diable Jambe I'd still see him have huge difficulties with Monster Chopper. Don't think he could beat Minotarurus easily either, he is not Luffy.

Later on, honestly Franky Shogun>Pre-Raid Suit Sanji. Oda isn't really afraid of doing this because it is really all about the narrative and the constant debate around Zoro and Sanji is all too fun and keeps the series alive. Readers can never leave their bias around Zoro and Sanji as these characters are intended to be the primary identification for the male audience, aside from Luffy.

Prior to Wano Arc, Sanji got his ass handed to everyone and everything in the New World, a pattern that pretty much reprises from Pre-Skip One Piece, where he went from getting beaten up by Pearl and Gin, to getting beaten up by rabbids, to getting beaten up by Enel, ... being the ball in the Davy Back Fight game...

In the same period Zoro already received three power-ups. He is all about power.

Jinbe could have beheaded Akainu and Garp in a single Karate chop, it wouldn't have any effect on the readers perception. They aren't even willing to properly memorize any of his feats, while also distorting those of Sanji. A blonde chainsmoking secret agent eros gentleman who uses cinematic martial arts and who is their age vs a 46 year old blue talking fish that uses lame ass realistic Karate... Easy to see who is guaranteed to be the popular character, especially during an era where identity becomes more and more important and among a target audience where indentity is important anyways.

For that reason, I also pretty much believe he is going to be #3 in the end, satisfying your target audience is as important as being capable of playing around with them, but Oda is totally unafraid of having him lag severly behind Luffy/Zoro for extended periods of time.

 

[Prince13333]

Only Zoro is. Readers just don't want to admit.

Sanji likes all kinds of woman.

Really forgot this existed. Oda talks about penises alot in SBS.



The pattern is a lie the community is telling themselves. Pre-Diable Jambe Sanji could neither beat Monster Point Chopper nor Nico Robin. Arguably with Diable Jambe I'd still see him have huge difficulties with Monster Chopper. Don't think he could beat Minotarurus easily either, he is not Luffy.

Later on, honestly Franky Shogun>Pre-Raid Suit Sanji. Oda isn't really afraid of doing this because it is really all about the narrative and the constant debate around Zoro and Sanji is all too fun and keeps the series alive. Readers can never leave their bias around Zoro and Sanji as these characters are intended to be the primary identification for the male audience, aside from Luffy.

Prior to Wano Arc, Sanji got his ass handed to everyone and everything in the New World, a pattern that pretty much reprises from Pre-Skip One Piece, where he went from getting beaten up by Pearl and Gin, to getting beaten up by rabbids, to getting beaten up by Enel, ... being the ball in the Davy Back Fight game...

In the same period Zoro already received three power-ups. He is all about power.

Jinbe could have beheaded Akainu and Garp in a single Karate chop, it wouldn't have any effect on the readers perception. They aren't even willing to properly memorize any of his feats, while also distorting those of Sanji. A blonde chainsmoking secret agent eros gentleman who uses cinematic martial arts and who is their age vs a 46 year old blue talking fish that uses lame ass realistic Karate... Easy to see who is guaranteed to be the popular character, especially during an era where identity becomes more and more important and among a target audience where indentity is important anyways.

For that reason, I also pretty much believe he is going to be #3 in the end, satisfying your target audience is as important as being capable of playing around with them, but Oda is totally unafraid of having him lag severly behind Luffy/Zoro for extended periods of time.

The portrayal is still heavily in his favor…

Who did Franky defeat that Sanji couldn’t ? Senior Pink? Lmao If Sanji stayed in Dressrosa he would have fought an executive. So Franky being above pre raid suit Sanji is nonsense. Sanji without the suit was fighting Queen so…. Jimbei might have been stronger prior to Wano sure but the second Sanji stepped foot in Wano he was 3rd.

 

[Fox666]

The portrayal is still heavily in his favor…

Who did Franky defeat that Sanji couldn’t ? Senior Pink? Lmao If Sanji stayed in Dressrosa he would have fought an executive. So Franky being above pre raid suit Sanji is nonsense. Sanji without the suit was fighting Queen so…. Jimbei might have been stronger prior to Wano sure but the second Sanji stepped foot in Wano he was 3rd.

I don't get why people compare Franky with Sanji

The manga makes the hierarchy obvious


Zoro and Sanji fought opponents with 2,000 Douriki, Franky fought someone with 800

Franky and Brook were shitting their pants seeing Zoro and Ryuma fight..... the difference between them and the monster trio is clear

 

[McNuss]

I don't get why people compare Franky with Sanji

The manga makes the hierarchy obvious


Zoro and Sanji fought opponents with 2,000 Douriki, Franky fought someone with 800

Franky and Brook were shitting their pants seeing Zoro and Ryuma fight..... the difference between them and the monster trio is clear

That was all prior to Franky building the Shogun. The Shogun is quite haxx and it's defensive capacities easily place it above Sanji. It also has a laser beam stronger than any attack Sanji can produce at that point.

The portrayal is still heavily in his favor…

Who did Franky defeat that Sanji couldn’t ? Senior Pink? Lmao If Sanji stayed in Dressrosa he would have fought an executive. So Franky being above pre raid suit Sanji is nonsense. Sanji without the suit was fighting Queen so…. Jimbei might have been stronger prior to Wano sure but the second Sanji stepped foot in Wano he was 3rd.

I don't answer that since you did not read my posts. Like why even bring up Senior Pink Franky fought him without using the majority of his cyborg gadgets.

 

[Fox666]

That was all prior to Franky building the Shogun. The Shogun is quite haxx and it's defensive capacities easily place it above Sanji. It also has a laser beam stronger than any attack Sanji can produce at that point.

Wasn't it implied that Franky Shogun was equal to a Pacifista?

The lasers are also identical to the Pacifistas

And Pacifistas were defeated intantly by the monster trio, so...

 

[HereNThere]

It seems more like assumptions because from what I've seen in Part I, Luffy wouldn't have been able to beat some of Zoro's opponents simply because swords, unless he could do stuff like break Daz Bones' steel body parts. I'm looking at matchups as well, and Sanji wouldn't be able to take on most of Zoro's opponents that could keep up with his speed or has good defense.

Luffy would've likely had issues with Daz Bones, true, but, at the end of the day, he still fought and defeated Pre Time Skip Crocodile, who is stronger than Daz Bones. And while the Strawhats aren't ranked officially, their opponents usually are, especially in major arcs, often, pretty blatantly.

Crocodile Mr. 0 > Daz Bone Mr. 1 > Bentham Mr. 2
Lucci (4000 Doriki) > Kaku (2200 Doriki) > Jabra (2180 Doriki)
Kaido > King (Highest Value Face Card/2nd highest bounty) > Queen (Second Highest Value Face Card/3rd highest bounty)

The pattern is there, so I'd hardly call it an assumption.

Are they more suited to fight certain opponents? Yes, but Oda likely designs opponents based on who the Strawhats will fight, so it doesn't really matter. Their roles and positions are what he highlights more than the actual minutia of their abilities.

 

[McNuss]

Wasn't it implied that Franky Shogun was equal to a Pacifista?

The lasers are also identical to the Pacifistas

And Pacifistas were defeated intantly by the monster trio, so...

Afaik in the anime Baby 5 claimed her attacks would take down a Pacifista, which is probably where you got this from, yet would imply the opposite

Naah Pacifista are overrated. They freaked out thinking it was Kuma, yet actually handled it quite well, especially Usopp. The real trouble started when Kizaru ambushed them.

Franky Shogun has a mini gaon cannon and a huge ass sword (weight=power). It's stronger than Sasaki, who couldn't put a scratch on Franky due to it. Yes it broke. Even if Post-Skip Sanji could break the Shogun, which I doubt because he doesn't have Sasaki's weight and drill powers, could he then still defeat Franky afterwards, who is pretty tough himself?

Remember WCI times where people complained how Sanji got his ass kicked so often, and how lame the cake baking was? That was what actually happened in the Manga, there was no secret reveal of Sanji's hidden strenght he developed over the timeskip, no crazy Newkama Kenpo or anything people anticipated back then. He received a power-up instead.

I don't think Franky Shogun would have had any difficulties with the likes of Yuen or the Decuplets like that.

Crocodile Mr. 0 > Daz Bone Mr. 1 > Bentham Mr. 2

Actually Mr. 2 is the second strongest male and female agent, so he below Miss Doublefinger, who also has the higher bounty and uses his ultimate attack as her basic ability...

They both defeated either Kaku and Jabra and King and Queen without too much effort, leaving their top end down to other feats.

And yeah, just the next arc after Enies Lobby, Zoro absorbs and tanks all of Luffy's damage on top of his own, or in Wano Arc, he tanks Big Mom and Kaido while Sanji gets beaten up by Black Maria...

The portrayal at Thriller Bark puts Zoro's Doriki more at 4k+, too, while Sanji could very well just be a 3k.

And don't get me started with Skypea saga, which is after Robin joined, who also gets a good chunk of portrayal here, while Sanji is a walking worff effect. If it's about portrayal, keep in mind Robin had the second highest active bounty back then, after Luffy and the Giants which shared the #1. There was no idea that in truth a Marine Vice Admiral is responsible for what is accredited for her bounty, nothing about Ohara or anything.

Robin prior to Enies Lobby Arc, at which she disappears as a fighter until Wano Arc, waltzed the floor with everyone and anything she faced, aside from Crocodile and Enel, something that cannot be said about Sanji's portrayal from his introduction till that point.

It's very weird with Sanji. Whenever he gets depicted as a typical Sanji, the community flips out, trashtalks the writing, loses all faiths and hopes...yet when he has his catch up moment they forget about everything as if it was just a dream.

 

[Fox666]

Afaik in the anime Baby 5 claimed her attacks would take down a Pacifista, which is probably where you got this from, yet would imply the opposite

I don't know about the anime.

Franky based his technology on Vegapunk's blueprints. Baby 5 and Buffalo confused Franky Shogun with a Pacifista.

Franky Shogun has a mini gaon cannon and a huge ass sword (weight=power). It's stronger than Sasaki, who couldn't put a scratch on Franky due to it. Yes it broke. Even if Post-Skip Sanji could break the Shogun, which I doubt because he doesn't have Sasaki's weight and drill powers, could he then still defeat Franky afterwards, who is pretty tough himself?

"Post-timeskip" is vague. The Straw Hats got much stronger between Fish-Man Island and Wano...

 

[McNuss]

I don't know about the anime.

Franky based his technology on Vegapunk's blueprints. Baby 5 and Buffalo confused Franky Shogun with a Pacifista.

Anyways its much better than a Pacifista.

"Post-timeskip" is vague. The Straw Hats got much stronger between Fish-Man Island and Wano...

Naah relevant power-ups only ever happen when they are adressed as such in the plot. There isn't really anything going on for Sanji up till he gets the Raid Suit, which is a power-up, he in turn believes to have triggered the following power-up.

There's no reason to believe WCI Sanji is any different from Return to Sabaody Sanji. Usopp and Nami had already powered up in that timeframe, receiving CoO or a new weapon.

Luffy only shows his true post-timeskip powers vs Doflamingo in Dressrosa Arc, something that subsequently is not enough anymore in WCI arc, hence a power-up follows. It's really always been like that.

 

[Fox666]

Both Franky and Sanji are stronger in Wano than they were before.

I think Sasaki would be a good opponent for Sanji when the timeskip started, but in Wano he would not last long.


I think the difference between the monster trio and Franky has been consistent:

- Zoro and Sanji fought enemies with 2,000 Douriki, Franky fought an opponent with 800
- Franky and Brook were shocked at Zoro fight with Ryuma
- The monster trio easily defeated some Pacifistas, who were used as basis for Franky upgrades during the time-skip
- Zoro and Sanji fought the All-Stars, while Franky's opponent was a Tobiroppo

Anyways its much better than a Pacifista.

It's based on the Pacifistas. It uses the exact same lasers, if not the same armor.

I'm sure if you can one-shot a Pacifista, the Shogun doesn't stand a chance...

 

[M3J]

Luffy would've likely had issues with Daz Bones, true, but, at the end of the day, he still fought and defeated Pre Time Skip Crocodile, who is stronger than Daz Bones. And while the Strawhats aren't ranked officially, their opponents usually are, especially in major arcs, often, pretty blatantly.

Crocodile Mr. 0 > Daz Bone Mr. 1 > Bentham Mr. 2
Lucci (4000 Doriki) > Kaku (2200 Doriki) > Jabra (2180 Doriki)
Kaido > King (Highest Value Face Card/2nd highest bounty) > Queen (Second Highest Value Face Card/3rd highest bounty)

The pattern is there, so I'd hardly call it an assumption.

Are they more suited to fight certain opponents? Yes, but Oda likely designs opponents based on who the Strawhats will fight, so it doesn't really matter. Their roles and positions are what he highlights more than the actual minutia of their abilities.

That doesn't mean much though, it's about matchups. Luffy could beat Crocodile because of his fruit, whereas his fruit wouldn't have helped him against Daz Bones. Until haki, I don't think Luffy would have beaten some of Zoro's opponents even if he was stronger.

I thought we were talking about strength/power rather than roles?

 

[HereNThere]

That doesn't mean much though, it's about matchups. Luffy could beat Crocodile because of his fruit, whereas his fruit wouldn't have helped him against Daz Bones. Until haki, I don't think Luffy would have beaten some of Zoro's opponents even if he was stronger.

I thought we were talking about strength/power rather than roles?

I'm really not understanding why you are so hung up on match-ups, especially when you are acknowleding that Luffy is still stronger than Zoro's opponents, which is the main crux of our disagreement. Again, Luffy may indeed have had trouble with Daz Bones, but he still beat a man who was stronger than Daz Bones. Thus the pattern/hierarchy of strength I am speaking of. Luffy>Zoro>Sanji, as their opponents show. Match-ups be damned.

Their roles often coincide with their strength, I.E. Kaido is the Captain (Luffy), King was the right-hand man (Zoro), and Queen was the left-hand man (Sanji). Baroque Works were organized in even more with Oda emphasizing that everyone above Mr. 5 and Ms. Valentine were the elite agents of the organization by ranking them numerically by their code names. CP9 are the cream of the crop of Cypher Pol and they straight-up have numerical measurements for their strength levels and were said to be the strongest generation in history.

There is no room for assumptions due to how Oda has designed these fights in this series, especially in major arcs. Through the use of antagonists, Oda demonstrates the hierarchy of Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji. Before the final fights in Onigashima, we had posters hemming and hawing and concern trolling about how this pattern was broken and how Sanji wasn't going to fight Queen because he was "too weak". But in the end, as Norman Osborn stated, Oda went back to formula and Sanji beat the third strongest member of the Beast Pirates. Oda pulled out magic medicine to make sure that Zoro beat the second strongest, instead of mainly fighting Kaido, as many hoped/expected. And, Luffy, of course, "solo'd" Kaido and surpassed him. Same pattern he's been keeping for the last odd 20+ years or so.

 

[Prince13333]

That was all prior to Franky building the Shogun. The Shogun is quite haxx and it's defensive capacities easily place it above Sanji. It also has a laser beam stronger than any attack Sanji can produce at that point.




I don't answer that since you did not read my posts. Like why even bring up Senior Pink Franky fought him without using the majority of his cyborg gadgets.

Honestly this is just like WCI, y’all are saying this stuff about Sanji but you know what’s coming…… you know Odas gonna hype tf out of Sanji when it’s time to fight. I don’t even know why people entertain Sanji not being 3rd. There’s a reason Sanji is the only strawhat that shares epic panels with Zoro outside of Luffy.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

sanji is my favorite character but the 3rd strongest is jinbe right now

 

[XXGenesis]

I have to call a Spade a Spade. Oda creates these narratives.

Sanji did not receive a 1 on 1 fight. Yet his upper limits & limits were still shown; Inefficient Haki. His Statements in Wano prove he learn to develop his haki more since PH. Then he Reached his upper limit in WCI & he wasn’t even fighting much…

Oda again creating multiple Narratives due to lack of context..Sanji defeated P1?!?…Sigh..From my understanding and the anime doing a good job on a 1:1 animation; The fight was inconclusive because Sanji fled soon afterwards…Leaving his upper limits undetermined

So Yes Jimbei was stronger for quite a while. It’s not until Wano after Sanji trains & his Genes are awakened. Does he even compare to Jimbei.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

seems stronger is one of the few on blackbeard pirates that can fly.
sanji vs stronger foreshadowing

 

[afromarco005]

Who is stronger again?