Discussion Shanks Vs Kaido, what really happened?

[Holt]

At the marineford war, after WB and Ace died, Shanks showed up to put an end to the war. Before that, we know that Kaido attempted to clash with WB and was intercepted by Shanks. Shanks and Kaido apparently fought with shanks managing to get Kaido to retreat while he still managed to get to marineford and end the war. Back then, most thought that Shanks was just that much more powerful for him to have dealt with Kaido that fast (or get him to retreat). Now, we've finally met Kaido. He's clearly a beast and he seems to be difficult to kill. Well that's putting it mildly, to rephrase, dude jumps 10,000 meters in a suicide attempt and emerges unscathed while only complaining of a headache. Some things are immediately obvious about Kaido. He's immensely tough, has survived numerous execution and suited attempts by yonko and Marines, he supposedly craves excitement or battles and he isn't one that can easily be reasoned with. The important question is, how exactly did Shanks get Kaido to retreat? Kaido logically should relish the thought of fighting with shanks. Kaido also isn't someone easy to defeat and yet shanks was unscathed when he arrived at marineford and didn't even look like he really been in a skirmish with a fellow yonko.
Perhaps shanks cut some kind of deal with Kaido? Or tricked him somewhat? Or did shanks defeat Kaido that easily and gave Kaido the scar? Or maybe Kaido was too disgusted that he wasn't going to fight WB and decided to retreat on his own? What are your thoughts?

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Just to recap, Kaido finds the world too mundane an existence for his liking that:

• He's innovatively seeking new ways to commit suicide.
• He had to pursue WB at the time he'd have been most provoked; if there was a time to not interfere with WB, it's when he was going to save Ace which is testament to his mind-state.

Based on these:

Spoiler

Spoiler

There's just no way Shanks didn't fight with kaido even if it was briefly; the 2 panels above even suggest they did because the Marines said "he's here despite his skirmish with Kaido yesterday".

The rationale in such a situation between another person of sound mind would be agreement or compromise via negotiation, but Kaido doesn't seem to be such a person; especially someone who doesn't fear for his life, we've seen him willingly throw himself into death's arms.

As much as I hate people using CoC for anything significant that occurs in One Piece when there's an exceedingly more sensible alternate; I'm going out on a limb and saying CoC possibly possess the power to intimidate powerful opponents or at least make one reconsider actions.

• Shanks somehow stopped Marco and co. from getting revenge on Blackbeard.
• Calmly had Sengoku and the Marines retreat.
• Stopped the broadcasts.
• Even Blackbeard retreated despite being so blood-thirsty moments before Shank's challenge.

Perhaps, CoC is just an uncomfortable territory to be in.

 

[kkck]

We thought shanks was much stronger than kaido to get him to retreat? I didn't know that lol.

Anyways, what we can reasonably predict here is an scenario of shanks telling kaido: You have 2 choices, you can either just leave and not fight WB or you can fight me and then go to also not fight WB. Kaido doesn't seem particularly reasonable but then again its unlikely he would have gotten to be a yonko if he is unable to retreat even in the face of having nothing to win from something. I mean, even someone as unreasonable as kaido probably won't lead his tired men from fighting a yonko to the greatest war the world has ever seen.

Beyond that... it depends solely on what oda can cook up. Its not necessarily predictable.

I doubt conqueror's haki can be used to literally control others. We have seen it a number if times by now, it seems a tad late to introduce such an ability. We would have seen something of the sort by now.

 

[dark123]

For me Kenbunshoku no haki is used to make something harder, to protect, Busoshoku is like radar but Haoshoku is ultimate form of haki so what we know about it:
- you can defeat opponents with weaker will with only power of your own will
- you can destroy material objects just by releasing energy created from will and we saw it when Shanks faced WB
- we can assume that Roger conquered world just using his for sure godlike haoshoku and Shanks is now the closest one to Roger so if it can be so powerful that it can dominate over material things i am sure that you can create something like shockwaves and use it to attack your opponents and it is something that can be achieved only when you are close to be master in using Haoshoku.
Just imagine someone that can create shockwaves which can nullify power of fruits and can literally destroy objects, It is terrifying power and that is probably why Roger was so strong and for sure Luffy has to master his haoshoku to that kind of lvl.
Oda is probably going into that direction and that is why he made BB so OP. He had to create opponent with 2 strongest devil fruit powers just to counter something like that. BB knows that he can not fight with that kind of power until he master his fruits completely.
It is just my speculation but everything leads to that direction.
Shanks is just too OP. Government is more afraid of him than other yonkou and we have seen this clearly.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I doubt conqueror's haki can be used to literally control others. We have seen it a number if times by now, it seems a tad late to introduce such an ability. We would have seen something of the sort by now.

Not control; intimidate or make one reconsider an action or give up on an intention.

• Marco and co were emotional and heated; Shanks didn't even suggest, seemed almost like an order.
• Did the same with Sengoku.
• Did the same with Blackbeard.
• When he saved Coby (he fainted since Akainu's punch never touched him), so it seemed he had been using CoC the moment he landed at Marineford.
• Against WB when Shanks tried to negotiate, both used CoC too.

Not explicitly saying CoC hypnotizes, but implicitly seems to have coercive function.

Question is why would he back away from Shanks when his aim was to fight anyway? Something must have happened in their brief skirmish. I doubt Kaido would be intimidated by Shank's strength if he were ready to fight Whitebeard, so a threat doesn't seem plausible. The only thing I can see with the ability to ward people off is CoC, but Oda will probably give us a more detailed context of their encounter.

 

[keeper1h]

(while fighting) "Why would you stop Whitebeard from going to Marineford, when even he is not sure he's gonna make it? He's still the strongest of us all, but his health is failing and he's much less powerful than when he was in its prime. And you want to challenge him now that his mind is set on something else? Are you sure that you're not trying to cheat? Because that's cheating. Listen to me now: you want the greatest challenge of your life? Let the old man go, and if he comes back you can always challenge him, but if he dies... you will find that out there there's something even more powerful than him. Something so terrifying that killed that old man, a feat that with your current power you cannot pull in any way, something finally able to put your life in serious danger and make you feel that thrill again. A War against the World Government."

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Whitebeard's strength wasn't diminished, he was still powerful. The reason he didn't perform to the standards expected of him as noted by even his 1st mate (Marco) was as result of not having his life support and it had a knock-on effect which literally had him fighting handicapped (middle panel).

Spoiler

So, it doesn't look like Kaido was looking to fight a weakened WB.

Marco's reaction places the blame for his bad reaction/speed due to lack of life support and clearly shows he expected him to have been able to perceive Squardo's attack.

 

[kkck]

Not control; intimidate or make one reconsider an action or give up on an intention.

• Marco and co were emotional and heated; Shanks didn't even suggest, seemed almost like an order.
• Did the same with Sengoku.
• Did the same with Blackbeard.
• When he saved Coby (he fainted since Akainu's punch never touched him), so it seemed he had been using CoC the moment he landed at Marineford.
• Against WB when Shanks tried to negotiate, both used CoC too.

Not explicitly saying CoC hypnotizes, but implicitly seems to have coercive function.

Question is why would he back away from Shanks when his aim was to fight anyway? Something must have happened in their brief skirmish. I doubt Kaido would be intimidated by Shank's strength if he were ready to fight Whitebeard, so a threat doesn't seem plausible. The only thing I can see with the ability to ward people off is CoC, but Oda will probably give us a more detailed context of their encounter.

I don't see how "intimidate or make one reconsider..." is anything short of "controlling" if not outright brainwashing even in the mildest forms of the context you are suggesting. There is also the question of why no one has pointed out this particular point of COC.

Its also weird that the people there specifically would have been affected by such a thing to boot. If its a haki contest the people making the calls should not really lag behind, even if their condition is not the best. I can't fathom the likes of everyone you mentioned (except coby) being even vaguely affected by such a power.

The thing here is not that haki has a "coercive" function in the least. The thing is that shanks literally coerced them into stopping the fight. The WB pirates and the marines had been going at it for a long time and were all tired. Shanks and his crew in turn were all at the height of their power and ready to wreck everyone. Shanks was even somewhat coy about it but when he said "bring it" he meant it more like " I will MURDER each and every one of you were you stand and there is literally nothing you now currently weak wimps can do about it". The red hair pirates are not "good", they even kill fodder who don't really pose a threat. Heck, one of the more explicit murders we have seen in the manga came from them and they pretty much laugh it off.

 

[HereNThere]

It seems to be a thing where, while they are enemies, veteran pirates appear to know a lot about each other, quirks and whatnot. I wouldn't be surprised if Shanks is one of the few character who can talk to Kaidou without him losing his crap. Seeing as how Kaidou wants to die, perhaps Shanks distracted Kaidou by giving him some information on a place where he'd possibly be able to die. Of course, he wouldn't be able to, but it'd distract him long enough for Whitebeard to reach Marineford without issue.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I don't see how "intimidate or make one reconsider..." is anything short of "controlling" if not outright brainwashing even in the mildest forms of the context you are suggesting. There is also the question of why no one has pointed out this particular point of COC.

Its also weird that the people there specifically would have been affected by such a thing to boot. If its a haki contest the people making the calls should not really lag behind, even if their condition is not the best. I can't fathom the likes of everyone you mentioned (except coby) being even vaguely affected by such a power.

The thing here is not that haki has a "coercive" function in the least. The thing is that shanks literally coerced them into stopping the fight. The WB pirates and the marines had been going at it for a long time and were all tired. Shanks and his crew in turn were all at the height of their power and ready to wreck everyone. Shanks was even somewhat coy about it but when he said "bring it" he meant it more like " I will MURDER each and every one of you were you stand and there is literally nothing you now currently weak wimps can do about it". The red hair pirates are not "good", they even kill fodder who don't really pose a threat. Heck, one of the more explicit murders we have seen in the manga came from them and they pretty much laugh it off.

I think this is a bit of an exaggeration here; intimidating and coercing still implies the person(s) has a choice, albeit a difficult one to make. It really isn't explicitly controlling someone. The main issue with CoC is that we don't know exactly what it does to knock weak opponents out:

• Does it distinguish their will completely into unconsciousness?
• Intimidate them into unconsciousness?
• Does it simply knock-out very weak opponents?

Oda hasn't explained how CoC works in detail, but we have scenes that need correct interpretation. Just because no one has pointed this out doesn't mean it's not a possibility; we notice things differently and a new perspective may make sense out of CoC until further confirmation from Oda.

I've seen CoC do few things:

• Knock out fodder.
• Intimidate opponents or polarize intentions or suppress determination; can't be sure until one analyses the context of these scenes and sees which action makes the most sense and consistently applicable in every scenario we've seen it used such as why Luffy and Joker used it against each other despite not being fodder?

If anything, I'd say it suppresses the determination of strong opponents while it completely suppresses that of a weak opponent into unconsciousness; it's the only thing I can think that's most sensible and it seemingly has no physical application like armament haki does.

I can't really see Kaido being intimidated and backing away, but I can see him backing off should he lose interest which could be attributed to CoC if it carries such a function. Not looked into this enough, but I find it fairly plausible anyway.

 

[Holt]

We thought shanks was much stronger than kaido to get him to retreat? I didn't know that lol.

Well maybe not, but I thought that was the general idea.

Anyways, what we can reasonably predict here is an scenario of shanks telling kaido: You have 2 choices, you can either just leave and not fight WB or you can fight me and then go to also not fight WB. Kaido doesn't seem particularly reasonable but then again its unlikely he would have gotten to be a yonko if he is unable to retreat even in the face of having nothing to win from something. I mean, even someone as unreasonable as kaido probably won't lead his tired men from fighting a yonko to the greatest war the world has ever seen.

Didn't Kaido try to attack WB before WB got to marineford? At the time Shanks moved to stop Kaido and the marines had heard, WB and co hadn't gotten to marineford yet.
Why would you think Kaido's men were tired though? Shanks and his crew didn't even look like they had been in a fight at all, so it wouldn't make sense that Kaido's crew were tired or worn out. If you mean, tired as in hypothetically if they had fought Shanks, then wouldn't that exactly be what Kaido wanted? Back then the marines theorized Kaido made a grab for power by attempting to take WB's head. Now, there's the more plausible option of him doing that just for the fun of it or another suicide attempt or something. If so, seeing as Kaido couldn't get to WB thanks to shanks, isn't it more logical for him to just fight shanks?

As for Kaido being reasonable enough to retreat, not exactly sure that's true. We just found out that the guy has a hobby of attempting suicide and he has even attacked marines/yonko solo and gotten captured 18 times. If he knew what retreat meant, he probably wouldn't have been gotten captured that many times. Also, I'm not sure shanks would have told Kaido anything he didn't already know in regards to the war. Kaido was well aware that WB was going to marineford to fight and attempt to rescue Ace. If shanks was telling Kaido that he wouldn't get to fight WB, there's no way Kaido didn't already know that.

What we have is Kaido apparently going for WB en route marineford. Then we have shanks somehow getting hold of this info and intercepting Kaido. Shortly afterwards, Shanks arrives marineford in seemingly perfect condition.

 

[kkck]

Well maybe not, but I thought that was the general idea.



Didn't Kaido try to attack WB before WB got to marineford? At the time Shanks moved to stop Kaido and the marines had heard, WB and co hadn't gotten to marineford yet.
Why would you think Kaido's men were tired though? Shanks and his crew didn't even look like they had been in a fight at all, so it wouldn't make sense that Kaido's crew were tired or worn out. If you mean, tired as in hypothetically if they had fought Shanks, then wouldn't that exactly be what Kaido wanted? Back then the marines theorized Kaido made a grab for power by attempting to take WB's head. Now, there's the more plausible option of him doing that just for the fun of it or another suicide attempt or something. If so, seeing as Kaido couldn't get to WB thanks to shanks, isn't it more logical for him to just fight shanks?

As for Kaido being reasonable enough to retreat, not exactly sure that's true. We just found out that the guy has a hobby of attempting suicide and he has even attacked marines/yonko solo and gotten captured 18 times. If he knew what retreat meant, he probably wouldn't have been gotten captured that many times. Also, I'm not sure shanks would have told Kaido anything he didn't already know in regards to the war. Kaido was well aware that WB was going to marineford to fight and attempt to rescue Ace. If shanks was telling Kaido that he wouldn't get to fight WB, there's no way Kaido didn't already know that.

What we have is Kaido apparently going for WB en route marineford. Then we have shanks somehow getting hold of this info and intercepting Kaido. Shortly afterwards, Shanks arrives marineford in seemingly perfect condition.

Yeah, kaido tried to intercept WB as far as we know. My point is though, that kaido wouldn't want to face the red hair pirates and then the whitebeard pirates. Odds are that shanks "negotiated" with kaido along those terms. Sure, the red hair pirates didn't seem exhausted but its probably because his confrontation with kaido didn't escalate too much to begin with. This is how I think this went:

1.- The crews meet each other
2.- Minor skirmishes ensue
3.- Shanks says to kaido something along the lines of "You are not advancing. If you want to advance then I will fight you full force, a conflict which even you know neither of us will come out of unscathed. You can retreat and not fight WB or you can continue, fight us and then not fight WB anyways because of the damage you will take fighting me". It wouldn't be weird if shanks asks kaido to let him handle the situation and whatnot
4.- Kaido agrees, at least because his objective of fighting WB because impossible one way or the other.

As for why not fighting shanks, probably because its not what he set out to do. If kaido set out to intercept WB then why would it be the same for him to fight Shanks? It probably isn't the case, its not like kaido was necessarily looking for a random conflict. Just because kaido's hobby is attempted suicide does not mean he is downright irrational. He got to be a yonko, there probably is an aspect of him that at least in some context values his crewmembers and is a capable leader.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

3.- Shanks says to kaido something along the lines of "You are not advancing. If you want to advance then I will fight you full force, a conflict which even you know neither of us will come out of unscathed. You can retreat and not fight WB or you can continue, fight us and then not fight WB anyways because of the damage you will take fighting me". It wouldn't be weird if shanks asks kaido to let him handle the situation and whatnot.

This is what I can't believe, nothing that we've heard so far makes out Kaido to be rational. His aim was to fight, so why would he pull-back against Shanks? If it's a fight he wanted, Shanks could have given him. The only reason he's innovatively seeing new challenges is to quench his boredom as a masochist.

The scenario being proposed just isn't consistent with what we know about Kaido thus far; it'd be surprising if Kaido backed off because he's worried about accumulating damage and him accepting Shank's offer to handle the situation eradicates the image we've been given about him.

 

[kkck]

This is what I can't believe, nothing that we've heard so far makes out Kaido to be rational. His aim was to fight, so why would he pull-back against Shanks? If it's a fight he wanted, Shanks could have given him. The only reason he's innovatively seeing new challenges is to quench his boredom as a masochist.

The scenario being proposed just isn't consistent with what we know about Kaido thus far; it'd be surprising if Kaido backed off because he's worried about accumulating damage and him accepting Shank's offer to handle the situation eradicates the image we've been given about him.

Nothing we have seen really makes kaido seem downright irrational though. Sure, he tried to kill himself but that does not outright suggest he is irrational and crazy. Kaido's aim was something with WB, presumably a fight. Sure, a lot of what we have seen suggests that a pissed of kaido is just about the worst thing that can happen to you however the guy is still not just blindly fighting stuff. He has been buying joker's fruits to prepare his army and is setting up a huge war. Which actually takes a decent bit of planning.Sure, shanks could have given him the fight however in context it does not seem like their confrontation really got to be something major. Is it plausible two yonko and their crews would fight each other at full strength while suffering no major damage? At least for me it does not seem possible. Let alone shanks just defeating kaido thoroughly enough for him to be able to appear at the great war like nothing happened.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

Hmm gotta agree with Hannibal here, I can only see Kaido deciding to leave after receiving a beating from Shanks. I don't expect anything less than that to stop him from going after WB, whom we initially thought he was after because he wanted to kill him. Turns out it's the other way around....I'm not sure why he is seen as a masochist, it doesn't look like he enjoys pain, which is the definition of a masochist. But he is suicidal for sure.Anyway in before we got this info about him and his obsession, it would have been possible to see Shanks convince him to not attack WB because he would threaten to kill him, but it turns out that's exactly what he is after.So I'm not sure how that would work, unless Shanks used some reverse psychology on him or something.
Of course we don't know if we always like this, or if he acquired this taste for suicide after WB died, who is most likely the only person who could kill him.

As for how the fight went, if it was short then maybe Shanks one shotted him... Kaido isn't invincible just hard to kill apparently, so it's not impossible he would lose to another Yonko, even Shanks(man he really is underestimated).

However I do not absolutely think that CoC would allow someone like Shanks to control Kaido. If CoC could allow such a thing, it will render DFs like the Ito Ito completely useless, and it only allows to control the limbs of a person, let alone control her mind...

 

[BASED Shinigami]

I think it is highly unlikely that Shanks would have emerged from a skirmish against Kaido completely unharmed. Such a notion doesn't make a lot of sense. Kaido is one of the four strongest pirates in the NW. He would have been able to at least put a scratch on Shanks. Shanks arrived at Marineford without a scratch on him. His crew didn't even look like they had fought a battle. Kaido was only looking to pick a fight with Whitebeard. I seriously doubt his objective was to fight the Red Hair Pirates and Whitebeard Pirates. Kaido may be suicidal at times but that doesn't mean he is irrational and stupid. He may have only prepared himself to take down Whitebeard and his allies but not two Yonko crews. Some negotiation must have taken place between the two of them and Shanks probably convinced Kaido that the latter had more to lose in this situation, so Kaido backed off and Shanks sailed straight to Marineford in a day to stop the war.

 

[kkck]

But wouldn't shanks defeating kaido have much more severe consequences than what was apparently the case? This is by all intents and purposes a huge deal, perhaps about as big a deal as WB's war with the WG itself. Even if there was a fight, odds are there at least wasn't a proper winner to the fight. This is a manga where crocodile's defeat as a shichibukai got the WG and the yonko to move and lead to the events that jumpstarted the great war. Two yonko fighting and ending in the victory of one should have been something that changed the new world forever.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

But wouldn't shanks defeating kaido have much more severe consequences than what was apparently the case? This is by all intents and purposes a huge deal, perhaps about as big a deal as WB's war with the WG itself. Even if there was a fight, odds are there at least wasn't a proper winner to the fight. This is a manga where crocodile's defeat as a shichibukai got the WG and the yonko to move and lead to the events that jumpstarted the great war. Two yonko fighting and ending in the victory of one should have been something that changed the new world forever.

Why is it OK for WB to defeat Kaido, but not Shanks? Last chapter clearly states that Kaido was defeated by the Marines and by the EMPERORS. Yonko=Emperors, and it's plural so it wasn't one Yonko. If it was a one on one fight, it's possible that Shanks could get the upper hand, or just fight off Kaido. Kaido isn't invicible, just hard to kill. I can imagine Shanks saying: "hey let's do this one on one, without our crews. The winner gets to advance". That would explain why Shanks crew weren't hurt, and frankly if they are as strong as I think they are, then it would make sense they would be able to fight Kaido's crew and not be injured. Last chapter, we saw Sanji one shot Sheepshead, who is thought to be part of Kaido's crew. So it's not like they will all be incredibly strong. BB and the admirals were afraid of facing the red hair's crew...As long as a Yonko is alive and has his crew he wouldn't lose his status. The reason BB was able to take WB's territory was because he died, even though his crew survived. Maybe it won't be the same for Luffy vs Kaido, because Luffy doesn't kill his enemies, so my bet is that it will be a situation like Dressrosa, with possibly the Marines being there to arrest Kaido and his crew.

 

[Holt]

But wouldn't shanks defeating kaido have much more severe consequences than what was apparently the case? This is by all intents and purposes a huge deal, perhaps about as big a deal as WB's war with the WG itself. Even if there was a fight, odds are there at least wasn't a proper winner to the fight. This is a manga where crocodile's defeat as a shichibukai got the WG and the yonko to move and lead to the events that jumpstarted the great war. Two yonko fighting and ending in the victory of one should have been something that changed the new world forever.

Well to be fair, defeat is meaningless if the yonko remains alive or uncaptured. When crocodile lost, it wasn't just the loss that jump started events, it was because he was shady and plotting against the WG. They couldn't afford to allow him to retain his shichibukai status and so a spot opened up. Kaido himself has been defeated and captured a number of times and he is still a yonko. Sure it's a big deal if yonko fight and a victor emerges but it wouldn't shift the balance unless the other yonko actually loses the status. Btw, even if a huge battle ensued between Kaido and shanks (which doesn't seem likely), the focus was on the marineford war. Pretty much every notable person was there. Only Big Mam would have been able to capitalize on one crew being weaker due to the battle but asides that, we know that very few people would attempt to take on a yonko without proper backing regardless. Remember that their territory has to be conquered and their allies either defeated or made to switch sides.

BB and the admirals were afraid of facing the red hair's crew... Maybe it won't be the same for Luffy vs Kaido, because Luffy doesn't kill his enemies, so my bet is that it will be a situation like Dressrosa, with possibly the Marines being there to arrest Kaido and his crew.

Tbh, shanks didn't give them a choice. It's not that they fear shanks so much that they wouldn't challenge him but that given the situation, it would have been purely suicidal to do so. All parties had been engaged in battle for a considerate amount of time and had sustained injuries. Taking on a Yonko when not in peak condition is just plain dumb. Shanks may have posed it nicely but the fact remains it would have been utterly reckless to even attempt to fight. It's why they had to retreat despite the ego and caliber of characters there. If the marines and BB were prepared to fight WB, then they would easily do the same for any other yonko under the same cicumstances.

As for arresting Kaido, well we know that doesn't exactly work out well. He'd escape sooner or later as usual. I doubt anyone would replace Kaido upon defeat. Besides, the SNs maybe ambitious but Luffy in particular plans to defeat all yonko. If things go according to plan, there wouldn't even be 'Yonko' anymore. Issho on the other hand is working to abolish the shichibukai system. Things are obviously going to change drastically.

 

[M3J]

I wouldn't be shocked if Shanks ran away because he couldn't waste time fighting someone who couldn't be killed.