Canon Shanks vs Mihawk

[hibar90]

I think you miss my point. Can people be so easily slapped by some sense into, when they're in complete bloodlust? What kind of war ended with "it's wrong" peacemaking? Okie, let's say Shanks has the "politeness" to make people realize that that war's continuation is wrong, but so what? Luffy (Dragon's son, the second Great Sin since Ace's existence) ain't dead yet, so the Marines have to pursue him at all costs. WB's dead, so it would be making more sense if WB crews seek revenge for him, although WB himself had said not to. But if you were a WB crew, and the Marine keeps attacking, what would you do? Flee or do nothing or merely defending, while both WB and Ace were dead by the marines in front of you? My argument on that whole "right thing and wrong thing" is, can war be stopped by a third party stating that it's wrong? If so, is it the main thing needed? Isn't it instead, the strength to stop the war?

Well red hair shank "crew" is indeed strong. Else he won't be a yonko. Yes shank is also strong, but mihawk with the same "crew" would be just as powerful or more powerful than shank. His crew does reflect but not an absolute image of shank power. And yes with an equivalent powerful force as WB, MHQ would think twice before continuing. And soldiers got to listen to their commander right? So, shank just have to snap senses into sengoku. BB can't win against MHQ, WB and red hair. Red hair can't win against MHQ, WB and BB. And the same for other 2 faction. WB pirates lost their objective and leader, what do you think this does to their morale? MHW objective was to draw WB while executing ace, their morale is high. They were cleaning the rest up front while fighting a new threat behind. Major losses would still occur. Luffy was not suppose to get involved. It was akainu who was rampaging friendly fire to coby to get to luffy. If they continue, shank could die, sengoku could die, marco could die, BB could die. There will be too many huge losses on all sides. It's not worth the trouble, and only a force as strong as red hair "pirates" can do this. Shank was just happen to be the strong leader of such crew. If mihawk swap shoe with shank the same would probably happen.

 

[bittman]

Meh, I keep track of this topic more than I post, but I still remain neutral. Here are my beliefs:

• I will say that Mihawk is the world's strongest swordsman, thus I stand by the fact that Mihawk's sword skills are at least above Shanks'.
• Mihawk, has indeed, not quite shown a large assortment of his true power since he seemed to fight everything from Luffy to Vista fairly equally without much fuss.
• Shanks, though undoubtably powerful, did have his entire crew backing his might at the WB War's conclusion. He challenged "everyone", but really he did that knowing that most sides were already done, and anyone wanting to continue would have been assaulted on numerous sides.
• Shanks has shown incredible haki against WB, but also we have not seen a full arrangement of his skillset. I count the Shanks WB clash on the same level as the Crocodile Mihawk clash. It's like saying "hi", but with something metallic.

Now here's my one belief which is what no-one really argues but maintains my neutral status:

• Mihawk and Shanks have not fought for many years.

By Mihawk's account, it was most likely approximately 10 years since they last fought. 10 years is a lot, and undoubtably both of them have grown and matured. But Mihawk has no desire to fight Shanks, and even though Shanks may appear to instigate a fight, it's not a direct challenge for Mihawk's title. Both of them have titles of notoriety and thus most likely fit into the "high tier" in regards to battle prowess.

However, Mihawk not wanting to fight Shanks is not the same as confidence of his victory. And Shanks challenging everyone at MHQ is not the same as confidence of his victory.

And that's really my point. Lots of pro-Shanks arguements have Shanks = WB (either from one clash or a challenge to half-dead forces at MHQ) whilst lots of pro-Mihawk arguements seem more adequate, but then go too far to try prove that anyone with a sword is Mihawk's bitch (because Mihawk daily goes out of his way to defeat a swordsman to prove he's still #1...there's no FIFA ranking ladder for swordsman...).

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

Actually that is not the case, because of two titles.

Miahwk - strongest swordsman -> #1 among swordsman.
WB - strongest man -> #1 among mankind

IF WB was a swordsman, then Mihawk couldn't be the strongest swordsman, since WB was carrying the superior title. It was a matter of hierarchy. I NEVER thought for a second that WB is a swordsman. Also to be fair there are not as much hints for WB being a swordsman as for Shanks right now.

Actually, this is the case. Everything had been pointing out that Whitebeard only fought with a bisento before it was revealed he had a DF. This is not something questionable, this is what you'd call a fact. That you believed or not he had a DF doesn't matter.
And for Shanks, it's the same. Even if I believe he's eaten a DF, it's not questionable that until now everything has been pointing out that he only fights with a sword.

PS : a bisentoman is not a swordman.

And some people really did not expect Whitebeard to be more than a bisentoman.

Spoiler

WB is God guys
Oh man, i never expected that WB is a fruit user

Damn. Whitebeard IS a DF user afterall. I guess Shanks must be also.

I must say i'm a little dissappointed with wb having a df...and one with the power to destroy the world!!! I had high hopes that he is a man who is naturaly strong but i guess one who can split the heavens must be really strong!

Meh I'm kinda disapointed that he is but still he's awesome x)

jeah never imagined whitebeard to have a devilfruit... i just wanted a strong character without cheatingpower but what a fruit? an earthquake man? holy fucking shit

 

[Fox666]

Really? Dofla, Kuma, Moria, Mihawk? Jimbei's resign, he wasn't considered a Shichi. Hancock might destroyed tons of Pacifistas, but did you see most Pacifistas gone? No. Define "tons". Is it "most"? If so, then not likely. Blackbeard's aim was to be no.1 by gaining enough powers to kill WB, and then pretty much ruling the world and destroying anyone opposing. Red-Hair Pirates came between all chaos and all sides back off.

You said that the Whitebeard pirates fought Marines + Shichibukai. But the fact is that the Shichibukai did not worked in marines favor at all.

On marines side:
- Mihawk. Did not care much about the war.
- Doflamingo. Did not care much about the war.
- Moria. Did not care much about the war.
- Kuma. Transformed in a unstopabble weapon.

Not on marines side:
- Hancock. Risking everything for Luffy.
- Jinbei. Risking his life.
- Blackbeard. Assassinated an fatal injured Whitebeard. Destroyed the Marine Headquarters.

And if you can't former Shichibukai:
- Crocodile. Initially against Whitebeard pirates, but changed his side and worked on Whitebeard pirates side.

So, you see, the Shichibukai worked against the marines rather than in favor.

no need to. I know that powers gathering in the Marines combined would form a stronger power than Red-Hair crew. Because Whitebeard's crew was defeated by those sum of powers. Don't you think that powers gathering in the Marines combined would form a stronger power than Red-Hair crew?

This was already said, and I will repeat:
- The marines were heavily damaged.
- As Coby said, the war ended, there was no need to continue it.
- Sengoku moved half of marine forces against Blackbeard.

So yeah, a crew strong as Whitebeard pirates was very dangerous for the marines in a damaged state and enough to stop pointless actions.

First of all you are misjudging the strength of red-haired pirates and marines.

Second, for you saying that Shanks is a factor so important, you obvious is overestimating the captain power. If you look at the Admirals battle, you can clearly see that Marco is not far in strength from Whitebeard (in fact Marco did better than Whitebeard), nor are Ace and Jozu far from that.

I think you miss my point. Can people be so easily slapped by some sense into, when they're in complete bloodlust? What kind of war ended with "it's wrong" peacemaking? Okie, let's say Shanks has the "politeness" to make people realize that that war's continuation is wrong, but so what? Luffy (Dragon's son, the second Great Sin since Ace's existence) ain't dead yet, so the Marines have to pursue him at all costs. WB's dead, so it would be making more sense if WB crews seek revenge for him, although WB himself had said not to. But if you were a WB crew, and the Marine keeps attacking, what would you do? Flee or do nothing or merely defending, while both WB and Ace were dead by the marines in front of you? My argument on that whole "right thing and wrong thing" is, can war be stopped by a third party stating that it's wrong? If so, is it the main thing needed? Isn't it instead, the strength to stop the war?

YOU miss the point.

Strength is a obvious factor of influence there. But it's not the only factor. The red-haired pirates are strong AND the war is pointless. The combination of these factors lead to the solution.

BlackHair, thanks for the time and hardwork, i understand what you're trying to state, that Shanks' main skill is with sword. I hope you too understand that the "sword is Shanks' main skill" is not the base of my argument, but the other end of it. The foundation, instead, is the nature of the Marineford war's end.

You are saying that Shanks is not a swordman because you want him to be stronger than Mihawk.

Let's say I am a crazy fanboy of Crocodile. I want him to be stronger than Whitebeard. But Whitebeard holds the title of "strongest man in the world". So what I do? I will say that Crocodile is not human.

How does it sounds? How it sounds to say that Crocodile is not human just because I want him to be stronger than Whitebeard?

The war was stopped, thus showing the strength of Red-Hair Pirates, thus showing the strength of Shanks. That's why Shanks is last-tier (Sengoku, Garp, WB, super BB). That's why he's stronger than Mihawk. That's why he got something else up his sleeve.

You know what I think? If Shanks come alone, and said "I will fight alone, and my crew will not interfere" the three Admirals would jump on him and Shanks would be dead.

 

[BlackHair]

Ah' man.. this is pissing me off. I just wrote like 60min on Antares posts and the stupid browser crashed all of sudden.

PS : a bisentoman is not a swordman.

Interesting, you seem to be sure of that. Care to backup that claim? Since I was never sure about that.

Im not a weapon expert or anything. But imo bisento-> polearm (blade) -> sword. I believe a bisento is one of many weapon for a swordsman. After all it's a close ranch weapon with a blade, thus the fighting style should be called swordsmanship.

Back then as I was defending WB title, I did some research on bisento. And I never heard anything like a bisentoman. A bisento falls into the category of polearms. Which again has a blade, and thus should be counted as relatives of swords. Well the later end is just a theory of mine. I don't have anything to back that up and that's all I can remember. But one thing for sure, I never heard the word "bisentoman", expect in OP discussions.

And because of everything I just wrote, WB couldn't be a swordsman. Therefore, there was a huge possibility that his main fighting style is not bisento based. -> That's how I was thinking back before the war arc.

In this case, it can be hardly related to Shanks and Mihawk. There are several indication saying Shanks is a swordsman. While in WB's case there was huge possibility that bisento is not his main skill.

And some people really did not expect Whitebeard to be more than a bisentoman.

Well I guess Oda owned them. Don't rly think there is op-fan out there, who hasn't been yet.

You are saying that Shanks is not a swordman because you want him to be stronger than Mihawk.

Let's say I am a crazy fanboy of Crocodile. I want him to be stronger than Whitebeard. But Whitebeard holds the title of "strongest man in the world". So what I do? I will say that Crocodile is not human.

Excelent example Fox. I thank you for that.

 

[Truefan21]

One thing persons seems to forget is zoro's goal. He want to be the greatest swordsman in the world, and he is hunting down mihawk NOT shanks. If shanks was the greatest zoro would be looking for him instead of mihawk.

 

[Dasbones]

Im not a weapon expert or anything. But imo bisento-> polearm (blade) -> sword. I believe a bisento is one of many weapon for a swordsman. After all it's a close ranch weapon with a blade, thus the fighting style should be called swordsmanship.

Back then as I was defending WB title, I did some research on bisento. And I never heard anything like a bisentoman. A bisento falls into the category of polearms. Which again has a blade, and thus should be counted as relatives of swords. Well the later end is just a theory of mine. I don't have anything to back that up and that's all I can remember. But one thing for sure, I never heard the word "bisentoman", expect in OP discussions.

A Bisento is a pole-arm

A Sword is a Sword

You don't go around wielding pole-arm calling yourself a swordsman, sorry just because something has a blade does not make it a sword, if the blade is shorter than the handle, than it is a pole-arm. /argument

 

[Antares]

Fox666,

YOU miss the point.

YOU miss the point. Your turn.

Strength is a obvious factor of influence there. But it's not the only factor. The red-haired pirates are strong AND the war is pointless. The combination of these factors lead to the solution.

First of all you are misjudging the strength of red-haired pirates and marines.

Second, for you saying that Shanks is a factor so important, you obvious is overestimating the captain power. If you look at the Admirals battle, you can clearly see that Marco is not far in strength from Whitebeard (in fact Marco did better than Whitebeard), nor are Ace and Jozu far from that.

please see my post to Schabrak and hibar90 below. All side must fight Red-Hair as first priority before they can battle, either to attack or to protect anyone. Including Admirals, all Shichis including Hancock, Jimbei, and WB pirates like Marco and Jozu. All sides.

In contrary, you underestimate captain's power. Look at WB and crew. Who is the strongest? Who's the captain? WB. Who is a Yonkou, equal to other three Yonkous? WB. If Red-Hair captain is Akainu level, WB can just beat him up and strip Shanks off the Yonkou title since long long ago. But nothing like that happens, since all Yonkou is balancing each other by opposing each other as well. Meaning? Each Yonkou + crew is equal to each other. Meaning? Each individual Yonkou is equal to each other. Simple.

You are saying that Shanks is not a swordman because you want him to be stronger than Mihawk.

You are saying that. You want my opinion to be that way. I didn't want Shanks to be stronger than Mihawk. Your interpretation of Mihawk being no.1 swordsman, and Shanks' carrying sword all the time, make you consider Mihawk to be stronger. My interpretation to the Yonkou balance and Red-Hair Pirates stopping the war, make me consider Shanks to be stronger. Thus, i consider Shanks to have other main skill other than him being a swordsman. Because Mihawk is a no.1 swordsman. Very different matter.

What?

Simple.



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BlackHair,

Excelent example Fox. I thank you for that.

No, it's different matter. Your definition and mine about swordsman is different. Human and animal is entirely different and can't replace each other, but you can get multiple discipline of skills at the same time. So that example is off.



---



Schabrak,

Let's say Mihawk had a crew equivalent to Shanks or any other Yonkou, would they have stopped too?Most definitly. Antares you like to leave out, that Shanks confidence is also based on his crew backing him up. Yeah he is a last-tier pirate being a Yonkou, but so is the the strongest swordsman, in a world where people fight with either Devil-Fruit powers, Swords, martial art, projectiles or a combination of it.

I don't think so, because the opponents (Marines, BB, Shichis) are a power consisting many strong individuals equal to Mihawk (and other Shichis), much more in amount than Shanks' crew, so the only factor left for Shanks and crew to be able to stop the war is that there's someone in The Red-Hair Pirates who's equal to last-tier/strongest opponents in Marines and/or other Pirates such as Sengoku, Garp, Super BB (not including Mihawk, because once again i don't see him defeating Vista or Croc. His slash could be defended against by Jozu, unlike Garp who punched Marco despite Phoenix insta-heal, and Sengoku who shockwaved BB and crew). Mihawk didn't show that quality even after battling various opponents.

Can we conclude from the current Manga who's stronger? NO!

I know, and i agree with you. But i must oppose the ways of thinking that Mihawk is stronger than Mihawk just because he's the no.1 swordsman, even when a fighter can get multiple discipline of skills at the same time. So many discipline of battle skill displayed in the OP world. Weapons, martial arts, DFs, Hakis, etc. And sword is under the category of weapons. So just in weapons, there are definitely each masters. And Mihawk, the world no.1 swordsman, hasn't been showed battling against no.1 staffsman, for example. So does the number one swordsman mean Mihawk's absolutely last tier? No! Shanks has unknown quality of swordsmanship and that is, precisely the same as him always wielding a sword, fact. But him being able to stop the war despite 3 admirals, Shichis, and three strongest (Sengoku, Garp, super BB), him being a Yonkou (a title equal to old Whitebeard), and an equal quality of blow to Whitebeard (that cut the sky), is also facts, showing that each Yonkou's individual is balanced in strength.



---



hibar90,

Well red hair shank "crew" is indeed strong. Else he won't be a yonko. Yes shank is also strong, but mihawk with the same "crew" would be just as powerful or more powerful than shank. His crew does reflect but not an absolute image of shank power. And yes with an equivalent powerful force as WB, MHQ would think twice before continuing. And soldiers got to listen to their commander right? So, shank just have to snap senses into sengoku. BB can't win against MHQ, WB and red hair. Red hair can't win against MHQ, WB and BB. And the same for other 2 faction. WB pirates lost their objective and leader, what do you think this does to their morale? MHW objective was to draw WB while executing ace, their morale is high. They were cleaning the rest up front while fighting a new threat behind. Major losses would still occur. Luffy was not suppose to get involved. It was akainu who was rampaging friendly fire to coby to get to luffy. If they continue, shank could die, sengoku could die, marco could die, BB could die. There will be too many huge losses on all sides. It's not worth the trouble, and only a force as strong as red hair "pirates" can do this. Shank was just happen to be the strong leader of such crew. If mihawk swap shoe with shank the same would probably happen.

To my point of view, the war was like this to each side:

WB vs MHQ + BB
BB vs MHQ + WB
MHQ vs WB + BB

They wanna kill each other in 1 vs 2 situation, but then Red-Hair Pirates stepped up and challenged anyone who wanted to continue, so each side would have to face Red-Hair Pirates as their first priority if they wanna go against each other. So the situation changed into

Red vs WB + BB + MHQ

and the rest is known by my post to Schabrak

The opponents (Marines, BB, Shichis) are a power consisting many strong individuals equal to Mihawk (and other Shichis), much more in amount than Shanks' crew, so the only factor left for Shanks and crew to be able to stop the war is that there's someone in The Red-Hair Pirates who's equal to last-tier/strongest opponents in Marines and/or other Pirates such as Sengoku, Garp, Super BB (not including Mihawk, because once again i don't see him defeating Vista or Croc. His slash could be defended against by Jozu, unlike Garp who punched Marco despite Phoenix insta-heal, and Sengoku who shockwaved BB and crew bleeding). Mihawk didn't show that quality even after battling various opponents.

i must oppose the ways of thinking that Mihawk is stronger than Mihawk just because he's the no.1 swordsman, even when a fighter can get multiple discipline of skills at the same time. So many discipline of battle skill displayed in the OP world. Weapons, martial arts, DFs, Hakis, etc. And sword is under the category of weapons. So just in weapons, there are definitely each masters. And Mihawk, the world no.1 swordsman, hasn't been showed battling against no.1 staffsman, for example. So does the number one swordsman mean Mihawk's absolutely last tier? No! Shanks has unknown quality of swordsmanship and that is, precisely the same as him always wielding a sword, fact. But him being able to stop the war despite 3 admirals, Shichis, and three strongest (Sengoku, Garp, super BB), him being a Yonkou (a title equal to old Whitebeard), and an equal quality of blow to Whitebeard (that cut the sky), is also facts, showing that each Yonkou's individual is balanced in strength.

 

[hibar90]

Off topic: You can call WB a pole-arm users. All any blade users can be referred to as blade masters. But, I think bisento is much more similar to staff/spear than a sword.

On topic: both mihawk and shank is undoubtedly wield a sword. Shank has display no other ability that using a sword so far. Not only mihawk is the strongest swordsman, he has world #1 sword. In 1v1 as of now, mihawk take this.

Edit @ antares: The yonko power is balance. Their power and crew is equal to each other. WB crew for example might not be as strong as shank, but they have the so called world strongest man on their side. It's ok if you are buggy the clown, WB left him alone simply because of the crew that BACKED him up. Buggy could be a yonko simply because of his influence and reliable crew. I don't think being a yonko is a good enough evidence to display your true power.

And the battle would not go according to your assessment. It will be red hair vs WB vs BB vs MHQ. Do you think MHQ would fight along side BB who back stabbed them? Do you think WB would join MHQ who killed their captain and ace? Looking how it would go they will kill each other. Sengoku was not worried only about red hair crew, but also BB on the rear and WB on the front. BB has sengoku and shank could possibly join. Red hair pirates is about to jump in a killing spree. It looks bad on all side, but there is no way MHQ could keep up with new threat, exhausted WB crew and a fresh yonko and his crew. Same with BB, it's wise to let red hair pirates to leave before they change their mind.

 

[Schabrak]

Schabrak,

I don't think so, because the opponents (Marines, BB, Shichis) are a power consisting many strong individuals equal to Mihawk (and other Shichis), much more in amount than Shanks' crew, so the only factor left for Shanks and crew to be able to stop the war is that there's someone in The Red-Hair Pirates who's equal to last-tier/strongest opponents in Marines and/or other Pirates such as Sengoku, Garp, Super BB (not including Mihawk, because once again i don't see him defeating Vista or Croc. His slash could be defended against by Jozu, unlike Garp who punched Marco despite Phoenix insta-heal, and Sengoku who shockwaved BB and crew). Mihawk didn't show that quality even after battling various opponents.

Equal or only nearly equal or just with comparable status?

Where is it said or shown that there are so many more of the same power as Mihawk or Shanks crew in the battlefield?

You don't see them defeating Vista or Marco, just as we haven't seen him be in a sweat. What you believe and what's shown is something different. It's just a claim, as people siding on either Mihawks or Shanks side without seeing them go all out at each other once.

A measruing slash being defended[with no real contact of the sword with Joz] by a diamond man, with probably the strongest defense in the world is'nt suprising and has ABSOLUTLY NOTHING to do with Garp punching Marco and his Devil Fruit, which isn't defensive but regenerative. Did you expect him to heal the excact moment he got hit out of suprise? Stop posting such BS comparisons for the greater good.


Mihawk had stated, that he had no real interest in the fight, excluding the first slash and his attacks on Luffy, hasn't shown fighting spirit or the will to win. His departure reinforced his attitude towards the whole war.

It wouldn't make sense to discuss the second part, as it seems like you excluded Mihawk from the start. :\
---

hibar90
... VS ...

Just as hibar90 wrote, it was always an all-out-brawl. It just never got to those fights, through constriction of time, space and man-power. WBs men had to use all their man power to stop Akainu from killing Luffy.

 

[BlackHair]

A Bisento is a pole-arm

A Sword is a Sword

You don't go around wielding pole-arm calling yourself a swordsman, sorry just because something has a blade does not make it a sword, if the blade is shorter than the handle, than it is a pole-arm. /argument

Care to backup that argument of urs?

My argument is: the fighting style which swordsmen and polearm user have to master is called "swordsmanship".

There is no distinct fighting style for polearm. Now I just googled (less than 1min) and look here:

Spoiler

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]What kind of weapons do you practise with?[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Our current area of study is the medieval longsword, a two handed weapon and is certainly one of the most interesting and challenge swords to use. In the future we hope to learn a great deal more including, but not limited to; single handed sword and buckler (shield), backsword (basket hilted single handed sword, i.e. claymore), spear, staff, polearm, daggers, as well as renaissance rapier styles.[/FONT]

Source

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Polearm user have to master swordsmanship, to learn how to wield properly. Thus it should fall into the category of swordsmen. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Furthermore in One piece, I never heard anything like a [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]polearm [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]man. Oda never specified that.
[/FONT]

---

Your opinion is, someone must commit completely at swordsmanship, and nothing else, to be called a swordsman. If so, then by your definition of swordsman, i state that Shanks is NOT a swordsman. But by my definition of swordsman, i state that Shanks is a swordsman, yet his main skill is not swordsmanship. Why? Because through that arc it was showed that Shanks and his crew could make all sides back off.

I disagree.

1. They didn't back off cause they feared the red-hair pirates, but rather they regained their senses. And accepted that their goals were archived and further meaningless killing wouldn't be of any benefit.
2. The war stooped because of the arrival of red-hair pirates and not Shanks the sole man. So his fighting style CAN'T be concluded on merely that.

You still don't seem to get the meaning of 1vs1. Even though Schabrak, hibar90 and Fox666 bringing good and solid arguments. Why don't you post me canon (facts) that Shanks is not a swordsman. Instead of writing of the red-hair pirates.

You are right, I expect Shanks to be committed to swordsmanship. After all he fought with Miahwk for the top. Therefore he must have some pride as a swordsman, since he crossed blade equally with the now strongest swordsman.

To my point of view, the war was like this to each side:

WB vs MHQ + BB
BB vs MHQ + WB
MHQ vs WB + BB

They wanna kill each other in 1 vs 2 situation, but then Red-Hair Pirates stepped up and challenged anyone who wanted to continue, so each side would have to face Red-Hair Pirates as their first priority if they wanna go against each other. So the situation changed into

Red vs WB + BB + MHQ

That's quite wrong. Red +WB vs MHQ vs BB. Shanks would have never fought the WB'a alliance. Otherwise he wouldn't have insisted for a proper burial for Ace and WB. Or why do you think Marco thanked Shanks at the burial? <- Logic sense?!

And honestly, by reading ur argments you make it sound like Mihawk is not mid tier class and that Shanks is feared by Sengoku, Marco and BB. What utter nonsense are you babbling here anyway? Only a Shanks fanboy could come up with this.

You think the MHQ would fear the the Red-Hair pirates, if they didn't fear the mighty WB alliance? Those ppl are prepared to die. No one was afraid of anything. The war stopped, because everyone regained their senses, not because they feared the red-hair pirates.

Now ENOUGH with the talk of the 3 great powers. This thread is about Shanks vs Mihawk.

I have two questions and plz answer them:

1. Why do you think Mihawk is mid-tier class?
2. Why is Shanks not a swordsman?

I know you already answered them, but I just want to pinpoint my argument on that. Since ur wrote ur past arguments in a context with other arguments.

 

[bittman]

In contrary, you underestimate captain's power. Look at WB and crew. Who is the strongest? Who's the captain? WB. Who is a Yonkou, equal to other three Yonkous? WB. If Red-Hair captain is Akainu level, WB can just beat him up and strip Shanks off the Yonkou title since long long ago. But nothing like that happens, since all Yonkou is balancing each other by opposing each other as well. Meaning? Each Yonkou + crew is equal to each other. Meaning? Each individual Yonkou is equal to each other. Simple.

Uhhhh, if the remaining Yonkou were each at "Akainu-level", then they would indeed be Yonkou. As I recall, WB did not "just beat up" Akainu without first getting in a sneak attack and then losing half his face. Now I don't know much about medicine, but every wound up until that one you could almost believe WB could get a whole tonne of bandages and somehow pull through.

Now if WB went around losing half his face just to make sure the Yonkou were at least better than "Akainu-level", well there wouldn't be much WB left to go around. And after seeing Akainu, if that's seriously a level "all Yonkou" have surpassed, then Luffy's last 5 opponents are probably pirates...which will get a bit dull fast.

You know who was Akainu-level? Old age Whitebeard. Old age Whitebeard is, at worst, at least as strong as Shanks. If Shanks and Akainu are not in the same ballpark, apparantly living two direct quakes and lots more haki attacks whilst racking up the greatest kill count of all the marines just wasn't enough.

Care to backup that argument of urs?

My argument is: the fighting style which swordsmen and polearm user have to master is called "swordsmanship".

The is no distinct fighting style for polearm. Now I just googled and look here:

Spoiler

Source

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Polearm user have to master swordsmanship, to learn how to wield properly. Thus it should fall into the category of swordsmen. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Furthermore in One piece, I never heard anything like a [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]polearm [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]man. Oda never specified that.
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I do believe I would have to agree with the earlier statement that the Bisento is just not a sword. The "way of the sword" in Shonen's is typically given to those with katana shaped blades, with the very rare western sword thrown in between. Oda has definitely never specified, but I would be perplexed to believe that he would class anyone not using a standard katana, or close relative, as a "swordsman".

Also the matter I discussed last page about Mihawk being the top of all "swordsman" typically means that to not be at the top, he must have been challenged and defeated. Given Whitebeard's words to Shanks about his battle with Mihawk still being "new", I would cast serious doubts that WB and Mihawk were challenging one another only a short time ago.

 

[Fox666]

YOU miss the point. Your turn.

No, I understand exactly what you are saying.

please see my post to Schabrak and hibar90 below. All side must fight Red-Hair as first priority before they can battle, either to attack or to protect anyone. Including Admirals, all Shichis including Hancock, Jimbei, and WB pirates like Marco and Jozu. All sides.

Oh no!

First you say that Shanks would fight everyone, marines, Shichibukai alltogheder... now he would fight even Whitebeard pirates?

In contrary, you underestimate captain's power. Look at WB and crew. Who is the strongest? Who's the captain? WB.

Whitebeard vs Aokiji: tie
Whitebeard vs Akainu: Akainu injured Whitebeard
Whitebeard vs Kizaru: Kizaru injured Whitebeard

Marco vs Aokiji: Marco kicked Aokiji and protected Luffy
Marco vs Kizaru: tie
Marco vs Akainu: tie?

You see, the difference is very small. And I think it makes no sense you say that Shanks strength alone makes the difference.

Each individual Yonkou is equal to each other. Simple.

There is no proof of that.

WB. If Red-Hair captain is Akainu level, WB can just beat him up and strip Shanks off the Yonkou title since long long ago.

Well, you sounds like a fanboy. Because I can't see how Whitebeard is that stronger than Akainu.

You are saying that. You want my opinion to be that way. I didn't want Shanks to be stronger than Mihawk. Your interpretation of Mihawk being no.1 swordsman, and Shanks' carrying sword all the time, make you consider Mihawk to be stronger. My interpretation to the Yonkou balance and Red-Hair Pirates stopping the war, make me consider Shanks to be stronger. Thus, i consider Shanks to have other main skill other than him being a swordsman. Because Mihawk is a no.1 swordsman. Very different matter.

And that's not a good reason.

Judging Shanks fighting style based purely on "Mihawk is nº1 swordman, but Shanks is too cool, so he can't be a swordman" is no good.

 

[Finale]

Sorry but the whole argument that the Shichi fought more for the WB pirates side doesnt fly. Moria, Kuma and Doflamingo tag-teamed Oars. Moria fought Curiel. Doflamingo fought Atmos. Mihawk fought Vista and Luffy. Hancock and Crocodile at first fought against both sides. Kuma fought Ivankov. So we see the shichi tying up or at the least engaging some of WB's top people. Yes Jimbei fought solely for WB. But Croc only started fighting against Dofla because he interfered in his fight with Joz and he helped Mr.1 against Mihawk. Hancock fought Smoker and the pacifistas. But taken all together, the marines benefited more from the Shichi prescene than the WB pirates. WB was gonna die regardless but BB was still the one to take him out. If he hadnt who knows what type of damage WB would've done before finally being taken down.

 

[BlackHair]

I do believe I would have to agree with the earlier statement that the Bisento is just not a sword. The "way of the sword" in Shonen's is typically given to those with katana shaped blades, with the very rare western sword thrown in between. Oda has definitely never specified, but I would be perplexed to believe that he would class anyone not using a standard katana, or close relative, as a "swordsman".

Im not rly sure about ur argument. Let me ask you a question, I believe then I could better understand ur opinion.

Why do you think a bisento is not a weapon for a swordsman?

1. 'cause a bisento has a higher reach than swords or differently shaped than swords?
2. 'cause it is called "bisento" and not "sword"?

Also the matter I discussed last page about Mihawk being the top of all "swordsman" typically means that to not be at the top, he must have been challenged and defeated. Given Whitebeard's words to Shanks about his battle with Mihawk still being "new", I would cast serious doubts that WB and Mihawk were challenging one another only a short time ago.

Shanks did most likely not fight Mihawk for a while. So that title would be under normal circumstances invalid. However this is not the case in OP, since Oda let one of his protagonists go after Mihawk. I seriously doubt Oda would change the strongest swordsman, after all that Zorovs Miahwk hype. Furthermore I can't see Mihawk shouting he is the strongest swordsman, if he wasn't sure about that. He doesn't seem to be a guy who babbles crap.

Thus even if Mihawk and Shanks didn't fight for ~10 years, I still think Mihawk is #1 swordsman. And to be fair, we have actually no evidence to doubt that.

@Antares: I believe you are influencing your judgement by Bleach and other manga. Where it is said that a captain is 10x stronger than a vice etc. One Piece is nothing like that. This war proofed that each high tier is about the same level.

Jozu, Marco and Vista are hyped character and high tier themselves. They proofed that they could stand equal against high tier such as Admirals and Mihawk. Solely of that reason even WB would not beat his top 3 commanders without trouble.

Also as I said, Oda is holding Mihawk for future plot. Thus he could not let him all go out. And since Oda declared Mihawk as Zoro's goal, it is without question proofed that Mihawk is high tier lvl. Only a Mihawk hater would claim sth different.

Furthermore he clashing with Croco doesn't mean Mihawk is Croco's equal. This whole war was a mess. We saw Corco clashing with Flamingo later with Mihawk, then again helping Luffy. That clash means a crap!

Also Mihawk can't be Corco's equal, since theoretically that would make Luffy stronger than Mihawk... After all Corco was beaten already. We know that in shounen the first beaten villains are most likely the weaker ones. But Im also not saying Croco would lose to Mihawk in 3 seconds. Even if Croco is mid-tier, he still wouldn't lose easy to high tier fighter.

 

[Dasbones]

Im not rly sure about ur argument. Let me ask you a question, I believe then I could better understand ur opinion.

Why do you think a bisento is not a weapon for a swordsman?

1. 'cause a bisento has a higher reach than swords or differently shaped than swords?
2. 'cause it is called "bisento" and not "sword"?

In the Purest sense (I.E real-world logic); Yes a swordsman can use whatever damned weapon he pleases, as long as he normally uses a sword, which Whitebeard does not. But this is One Piece, where Zoro uses three Katanas, but is no samurai, He is a Swordsman. In One Piece, if you use JUST a sword (no matter how many); you are a swordsman.

Also if you insist that I need a source to state the obvious HERE

The Bisento is not a sword; there should be no problem making that distinction, so you cannot wield it and call yourself a swordsman, Mihawk would not be called a swordsman if he used a Halbard, which is basically what a bisento is.

Zoro and Mihawk are Sword-purests, they do not use anything but swords in combat, if Zoro was fighting another swordsman, he would not; out of pure principle, use anything but a sword.

Swordsmanship is the art of using a sword, not a pole-arm, any dispute about that is just silly.

Whitebeard uses his Bisento in combination with his Devil fruit powers, he never claimed to be a 'Bisento-man' or anything of the sort, no one claimed he was a swordsman, so I have no idea where you are getting that Idea from.

 

[BlackHair]

The Bisento is not a sword

I didn't mean to say that a polearm is a sword. Rather my point was that swordsmanship also teaches the use of polearms.

Swordsmanship is the art of using a sword, not a pole-arm, any dispute about that is just silly.

You call it silly, yet I found a school which is teaching the art of swordsmanship with weapons like a polearm. Google.

I think I have two choices: to go with ur claim and basically accepting that those schools are led by bunch of idiots, who still after years of training didn't understand that a polearm doesn't fall into the category of swordsmanship or I will go with them and ignore ur statement. I guess I will take the later one, though you could change my mind by posting a link in which it is stated that Asian-swordsmanship is excluding polearms. After all I only found European schools.

Zoro and Mihawk are Sword-purests, they do not use anything but swords in combat, if Zoro was fighting another swordsman, he would not; out of pure principle, use anything but a sword.

I agree. But that goes also against opponents who are not using a sword.

Anyway, this small side discussion is off topic. My further posts dealing with this topic will be posted by me in the megaconvo.

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

Interesting, you seem to be sure of that. Care to backup that claim? Since I was never sure about that.

Im not a weapon expert or anything. But imo bisento-> polearm (blade) -> sword. I believe a bisento is one of many weapon for a swordsman. After all it's a close ranch weapon with a blade, thus the fighting style should be called swordsmanship.

Back then as I was defending WB title, I did some research on bisento. And I never heard anything like a bisentoman. A bisento falls into the category of polearms. Which again has a blade, and thus should be counted as relatives of swords. Well the later end is just a theory of mine. I don't have anything to back that up and that's all I can remember. But one thing for sure, I never heard the word "bisentoman", expect in OP discussions.

A bisentoman is just a word I used to speak about someone only fighting with a bisento - just to be clear, Whitebeard is not a bisentoman but a quake man.

Until now, every swordman in OP has fought with swords or katanas. People fighting with axes or spears have never been called swordmen in One Piece. Yet, we've seen many of them.

Anyway, BlackHair, this discussion about the bisento is useless because I don't see how it could prevent Shanks from being a POSSIBLE devil fruit user.

The true debate is this one : can we consider Shanks a swordman if he fights with a sword and a DF ? This is what we should talk about. For those who believe we can't, they think it is possible that Shanks can be stronger than Mihawks, the strongest swordman.

You are saying that Shanks is not a swordman because you want him to be stronger than Mihawk.

I am not. Did I not accept that everything has been poiting out that Shanks is a swordman ?
I've said I THINK he is not a (true) swordman because I THINK he is a DF user.

By the way, you believes that he is less strong than Mihawks. So what is the point ? I already knew I had an opinion and that you also had one.

Let's say I am a crazy fanboy of Crocodile. I want him to be stronger than Whitebeard. But Whitebeard holds the title of "strongest man in the world". So what I do? I will say that Crocodile is not human.

How does it sounds? How it sounds to say that Crocodile is not human just because I want him to be stronger than Whitebeard?
You know what I think? If Shanks come alone, and said "I will fight alone, and my crew will not interfere" the three Admirals would jump on him and Shanks would be dead.

You can play the fool with everything you know and this is not of any interest at all.

 

[BlackHair]

Anyway, BlackHair, this discussion about the bisento is useless because I don't see how it could prevent Shanks from being a POSSIBLE devil fruit user.

Agree that the bisento discussion is useless. Im just interested since it was my main argument prior to the war arc that WB is not a swordsman (bisento user).

The true debate is this one : can we consider Shanks a swordman if he fights with a sword and a DF ?

In One Piece, if a charakter eats a devil fruit, his fighting style will be named after that. Luffy is a rubber man, cause he ate the rubber fruit. His fighting style is rubber based. So If Shanks has a devil fruit, he wouldn't be a swordsman anymore, unless he eats a sword fruit or anything. Or sth similar like Mr1 fruit. Not sure if that could be also counted as swordsman. But I guess not, according to a traditional way.

Either way, a discussing about "possibility" is impossible. Since there is no canon (manga facts) to base on. Otherwise there would be more discussion like this. So discussion about Shanks's possible fighting style beside swordsmanship is futile.

Also L.Ray - U have quoted Fox's post, which was not directed at you. Not sure if u were confused, since I quoted him as I was quoting you.

 

[Fox666]

Uhhhh, if the remaining Yonkou were each at "Akainu-level", then they would indeed be Yonkou. As I recall, WB did not "just beat up" Akainu without first getting in a sneak attack and then losing half his face. Now I don't know much about medicine, but every wound up until that one you could almost believe WB could get a whole tonne of bandages and somehow pull through.

Now if WB went around losing half his face just to make sure the Yonkou were at least better than "Akainu-level", well there wouldn't be much WB left to go around. And after seeing Akainu, if that's seriously a level "all Yonkou" have surpassed, then Luffy's last 5 opponents are probably pirates...which will get a bit dull fast.

You know who was Akainu-level? Old age Whitebeard. Old age Whitebeard is, at worst, at least as strong as Shanks. If Shanks and Akainu are not in the same ballpark, apparantly living two direct quakes and lots more haki attacks whilst racking up the greatest kill count of all the marines just wasn't enough.

The databook states that Whitebeard did not loose any of his strength from his prime.

And I think that's correct. Whitebeard loose his agility, and had problem dodging attacks, but his quake attacks are strong as ever.

And in my opinion Whitebeard completely loose to Akainu. In their first combat, Akainu did a severe injure in Whitebeard chest.

In the second combat... while Whitebeard "beat" Akainu, Akainu objective was to pursue Luffy, and Whitebeard was trying to protect Luffy. Since Akainu sucessed in reaching Luffy undergroud, I would say that he win Whitebeard on that.

Also, Akainu had still a lot of strength to fight. So we don't know what would happen if Akainu did not followed Luffy undergroud, what if he tried to attack Whitebeard again? And finally, compared to his injures, the attack that removed half of Whitebeard head was ten times worse. And was that injure fatal, even if it not cause an instant dead?

Well, you see my point. Akainu is the winner.

Sorry but the whole argument that the Shichi fought more for the WB pirates side doesnt fly. Moria, Kuma and Doflamingo tag-teamed Oars. Moria fought Curiel. Doflamingo fought Atmos. Mihawk fought Vista and Luffy. Hancock and Crocodile at first fought against both sides. Kuma fought Ivankov. So we see the shichi tying up or at the least engaging some of WB's top people. Yes Jimbei fought solely for WB. But Croc only started fighting against Dofla because he interfered in his fight with Joz and he helped Mr.1 against Mihawk. Hancock fought Smoker and the pacifistas. But taken all together, the marines benefited more from the Shichi prescene than the WB pirates. WB was gonna die regardless but BB was still the one to take him out. If he hadnt who knows what type of damage WB would've done before finally being taken down.

Whitebeard would not do as much damage as Blackbeard did (Whitebeard failed to destroy the marines HQ).

Well, the point is that the Shichibukais on marines side doesn't care about the war. While Jinbei and Hancock are risking everything.

Furthermore he clashing with Croco doesn't mean Mihawk is Croco's equal. This whole war was a mess. We saw Corco clashing with Flamingo later with Mihawk, then again helping Luffy. That clash means a crap!

The whole war was a big mess. What matter if Crocodile stopped Mihawk? Jozu stopped Aokiji much easier than Whitebeard.

---

I am not. Did I not accept that everything has been poiting out that Shanks is a swordman ?

Was I quoting you?

I've said I THINK he is not a (true) swordman because I THINK he is a DF user.

http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1969106#post1969106

You can play the fool with everything you know and this is not of any interest at all.

"Everything I know" WHAT?

You mean knowing that, according to Antares, Red-haired pirates are far from having enough power to fight the marines, and the differencial amount is Shanks alone strength?