Canon Shanks vs Mihawk

[Franckie]

If you reread my post, you can see that I have " proved " with facts that in the case of Whitebeard, his own personal strenght was a major contributor to his status as a Yonkou. I don't really see the link between that and this answer.

Did you not read the Marineford Arc? WB brought his entire crew as back-up and still lost. His crew was the key reason WB lasted as long as he did. Without them, there's nothing preventing the 3 Admirals from ganging up on him, and WB being "the Strongest Man in the World" is not going to prevent the Admirals from stomping him hard. Later on, when Shanks makes an appearance, what stopped the rampage of Akainu and company was the dire major threat staring right at em', Shanks' + crew.

Anyway, I'm sure MHQ and Shichibukai would have had problem against the single Yonkou Whitebeard, especially when you know what kind of power he has.

No.

On a side-note, Shiki on his own had destroyed half of Marineford's town when he fought against MHQ.

Shiki fought some fodder, Sengoku, and Garp. He never fought MHQ's total power.

 

[Schabrak]

@Frankie: Giving trouble and win are two completely different matters. We are talking about a fit old Whitebeard here. Without a crew and Ace on the island, he wouldn't have to hold back, nor would he have to attack the isle directly. Using his quake powers from afar, he would probably outdo even Aokiji in his freezing the waves.

One can asume, that even back than, Garp and Sengoku were holding 50 to 70 percent of the MHQs total power. And since we don't know how many vice-admirals were present back than, you aren't even able to compare those two battles.

 

[Antares]

Schabrak,

@Frankie: Giving trouble and win are two completely different matters. We are talking about a fit old Whitebeard here. Without a crew and Ace on the island, he wouldn't have to hold back, nor would he have to attack the isle directly. Using his quake powers from afar, he would probably outdo even Aokiji in his freezing the waves.

One can asume, that even back than, Garp and Sengoku were holding 50 to 70 percent of the MHQs total power. And since we don't know how many vice-admirals were present back than, you aren't even able to compare those two battles.

So do you agree with me comparing Shanks to Old WB as individual Yonkous, then?


Lord Rayleigh,

And it's interesting to see that it was actually the CONTRARY with the Yonkou Whitebeard. Oda clearly stated that the Whitebeard Pirates controlled a part of the New World because of Whitebeard's personal strenght. The silver medalists of LVL 6 in ID were the first indication. Now with his loss for the Whitebeard Pirates, Oda showed that pirates dare to attack his territories even if his crew was about to come back. He also showed that the Whitebeard Pirates' flag did not mean anything anymore for New World pirates because of Whitebeard's death.

That's exactly what i mean by comparing Shanks and WB as Yonkous. I don't remember where exactly it was stated that Yonkou's primary definition is to have military power instead of one's own power.

hibar90,

i agree with some points you made, especially on where i stand about Haki. If Shanks' strongest skill is swordsmanship technique, then why did WB and crew mention his Haki primarily? It showed Haki as Shanks' strongest point, instead of anything else including his swordsmanship.

I have to disagree with your last paragraph. Thier strength at beating them was equal. Just like Mike Tyson and I is equal at stomping cockroach. Heck I think I can do better than him. If it shows their equality in power, then according to your own argument, Luffy is equal to crocodile and Jimbei. So gear 3 luffy is equal to Jimbei who's equal to Ace. He's also equal to Aokiji an admiral level who's power is almost at akainu power who kept up with WB. So does that mean gear 3 luffy = at least aokiji? Lol, I have to say no there mate.

No, i just meant to use the direct comparison (head-on clash and fight on the same situation or same level opponent like when against Demon guards). I know that gear 3 Luffy is not = at least Aokiji because the chaining comparisons often have biases, detailed char advantages and weakness etc, but if you see my direct examples, than it showed that in quality, Croc's Sables, Luffy's Gigant Rifle, Jimbei's karate punch have the same quality to each other, instead of different. So the proofs weigh in equal quality instead of "unknown maybe different level".

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

Did you not read the Marineford Arc? WB brought his entire crew as back-up and still lost. His crew was the key reason WB lasted as long as he did. Without them, there's nothing preventing the 3 Admirals from ganging up on him, and WB being "the Strongest Man in the World" is not going to prevent the Admirals from stomping him hard. Later on, when Shanks makes an appearance, what stopped the rampage of Akainu and company was the dire major threat staring right at em', Shanks' + crew.

If you REreread my post, you can see that I have " proved " with facts that in the case of Whitebeard, his own personal strenght was a major contributor to his status as a Yonkou. I don't really see AGAIN the link between that and this answer.

Now to be even clearer : I've never said that Whitebeard's crew was not a major contributor to his Yonkou status. I've said that I didn't agree with you when you said that Shanks' personal strenght was not a major contributor to his Yonkou status - and I've explained that in the case of another Yonkou - Whitebeard - it was definitely a major contributor.

Even if you prove that Whitebeard's crew was a major contributor, it does not mean that Whitebeard's personal strenght was not. Anyway, Whitebeard's crew was definitely not THE contributor but A contributor.

I think it's difficult to deny that Whitebeard's personal strenght was a major contributor to his Yonkou status when it was stated that silver medalists could not make it in NW because of a single man'strenght, and when this man was said to be Roger's only equal.

It's just like saying Roger's personal strenght was not a major contributor to his Pirate King title, and won't be for Luffy. The captain's personal strenght is absolutely necessary for a pirate crew to be one of the stronger. It's not the only necessary thing but it is definitely one of the most important, and especially in the case of crews such like Yonkou's.

 

[Fox666]

I don't remember Oda saying that anywhere in the manga.

And it's interesting to see that it was actually the CONTRARY with the Yonkou Whitebeard. Oda clearly stated that the Whitebeard Pirates controlled a part of the New World because of Whitebeard's personal strenght. The silver medalists of LVL 6 in ID were the first indication. Now with his loss for the Whitebeard Pirates, Oda showed that pirates dare to attack his territories even if his crew was about to come back. He also showed that the Whitebeard Pirates' flag did not mean anything anymore for New World pirates because of Whitebeard's death.

It's actually what Whitebeard represents.

Because... well, I suppose that Brownbeard dude is nothing compared to Marco... you got it.

It's just like saying Roger's personal strenght was not a major contributor to his Pirate King title, and won't be for Luffy. The captain's personal strenght is absolutely necessary for a pirate crew to be one of the stronger. It's not the only necessary thing but it is definitely one of the most important, and especially in the case of crews such like Yonkou's.

The captain is the biggest contrubuitor of all mens, however it's not bigger than the rest of the crew.

For what we have seen so far, when it comes to the strongest crews, the difference in power beetween the captain and first mate is very small. I.e. Whitebeard pirates, Roger pirates.

In fact, it seems that for One Piece series, as stronger a group of individuals is, less significant is the difference in power beetween them.

No, i just meant to use the direct comparison (head-on clash and fight on the same situation or same level opponent like when against Demon guards). I know that gear 3 Luffy is not = at least Aokiji because the chaining comparisons often have biases, detailed char advantages and weakness etc, but if you see my direct examples, than it showed that in quality, Croc's Sables, Luffy's Gigant Rifle, Jimbei's karate punch have the same quality to each other, instead of different. So the proofs weigh in equal quality instead of "unknown maybe different level".

Antares, I will never like your strength measurement.

I said this before, and I will say again. If you say that Crocodile is equal to Hawkeye or Doflamingo, I can also say that he is equal to Akainu, because the confrontation he had with Akainu is VERY similar to the others.

And if you try to explain why Crocodile is not equal to Akainu you will be caving your own grave, as you are complaining of others giving explanations why Crocodile is not equal to Mihawk or Doflamingo because of a single slashe.

By the way, I don't think that Crocodile nor Luffy are weak.

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

Now I have decided to talk about the importance of Whitebeard's crew in his ascension to the Yonkou title because I had not directly talked about it, unlike Franckie.

People have to think that Whitebeard's giant crew must be the result of him taking control of New World's islands and defeating pirate crews. For example, when Ace and Doma's crews became part of Whitebeard's float when Whitebeard was already one of the Yonkou.

I agree that Whitebeard's crew is awesome and it is what made the Whitebeard Pirates such a dangerous crew, even able to be on the level of the MHQ, but I don't agree that it is the main reason or a key reason to Whitebeard becoming a Yonkou.

I'd say that Whitebeard's crew is a major contributor to the strenght of the Yonkou Whitebeard - to me it is more what you defend, Franckie - but that it is not a major contributor to the pirate Newgate becoming a member of the Yonkou.
To me, the major contributor to a crew becoming something is the captain and a group of ten awesome guys, also as strong as hell.

I'd like to clarify that to become a Yonkou you do not need to be able to be on par with the MHQ. The Yonkou became Yonkou because little by little they conquered New World's islands and managed to conserve them. And to conserve an island, a Yonkou only needs to defeat the pirate crews which dare to contest his power.
And it's interesting to notice that Whitebeard's personal strenght was enough to defeat a whole pirate crew led by Portgas D. Ace who was a logia user, and was the son of the Pirate King, and was on Shichibukai level - indeed he was on par with Jinbei and asked to be a Shichibukai.

If Luffy ever becomes a Yonkou, the reason will be his strenght and his current number of crewmates. If his allies and friends increase after that, it will be the result of that 10 SHs'strenght. To become a Yonkou, a man need to have a core of awesome fighters to defeat the strongest pirate crews travelling around which are the real threat to the status.

So Whitebeard very likely became a Yonkou first of all because of his personal strenght and secondly because of the strenght of a little group of crewmates - Marco, Joz and some others that have been with him since the beginning. The current level of the Whitebeard Pirates was only the result of that rule that began decades ago - Shiki said when Roger died that it was the beginning of Whitebeard era.

And Shanks very likely became a Yonkou because of his personal strenght and the several guys we've seen on this awesome double-page at the end of MHQ arc. I think there is a reason why Oda only showed them and not even Rockstar - a new crewmate - who was also already known. The size of Shanks'current crew is not a major contributor to his Yonkou status but a consequence.

 

[elitefox]

Mwk's title says that he can beat any swordsman. Since WB is obviously not a swordsman, he is not included in a sword fight.

You are NOT a swordsman if u pick up a sword. Nightmare Luffy was able to wield a sword, but can't he be considered as a swordsman. Same with WB.

What exactly is ur basics for that statement? I assume haki isn't the only thing you are basing this.


Yonko/Admiral lvl = last tier lvl.

We all know the monster trio will reach at the end of OP (or even before) the last tier level. Oda is building Mwk as Zoro's last goal for now about 10 years. Using some brain it is 's not so hard to understand that Mwk is at high tier level as well.

Anyway, here a bit better explained post.

Honestly are you expecting Shanks to rape Mwk in 3 seconds or sth?


What kind of understanding of the three great power is that? We know Garp mentioned the MHQ and not only the Admirals. In the current arc, are the Admirals the only one fighting from the MHQ forces?

Also that power balance wasn't accuracy from the beginning, I mean Dragon isn't mentioned. Also its not like the WG does power measurement. Also the MHQ has to face EVERY pirate on sea. It's not like the yonko are the only ones, but they are the most powerful ones.

Yes they are addresses as in individual, since they are the leaders of the their organisation. But they were referred as a crew for obvious reasons. We have here several character mentioning WB: Garp (P4), Iva (P2), Drake Pirates (P5) Garp (P9) again and some more. All these characters are referring to WB. However did he appear all alone? No of course not.

Going back to Garp's explanation: "They rule the latter half of the grand line as kings would do" How reign Kings: all alone or with subordinates? Go ask ur history teacher.

Nonsense! Roger was WB's equal. We heard that Garp fought Roger on equal grounds. That alone puts Garp on WB's equal grounds. Your math is good for nothing. I can't even believe that u didn't even mentioned Sengoku or Garp in ur calculation.

That great man must be reading sth else. There is no such thing as "Schibukai level" for obvious reasons. They vary in battle power as individual from middle class to high tier class. Moria clearly on middle class, while Mwk obviously on high tier class.

I agree with that. The SHs are getting stronger at high pace. I believe if Luffy manages to learn haki he would give every monster trouble.

But Mwk CAN'T fall. The one who will beat him is Zoro and only him. With that Im not saying Zoro is the only one, but he is the one who will do it. This is foreshadowed by Oda for about 10 years.


You are only focusing on "giving up", thus ignoring the rest. What we know so far:

• Mihawk and Shanks were equals and rivals fighting for the top. (Red Datebook)
• Shanks spent one year in east blue and lost a arm.

Now rereading that sentence: "I have given up fighting the one arm man liked you for a long time" it sound to me, that Mihawk lost interest in fighting Shanks since he lost a arm. They were rivals and fighting for the top. Suddenly Shanks disappears for a year in one of the weakest seas and comes back with only one arm. So I guess Mwk lost interest in Shanks, since he didn't considered him his equal anymore. That's at least how I see it.

Now 10 years later, Shanks is a boss of a mighty crew and Mwk the strongest swordsman. In a 1vs1 fight Mwk is stronger, but if Red-Hair pirates vs Hawk Eye, then Mwk will be raped.

Just to make sure: Im considering Mwk stronger than Shanks. But Im not saying this will be a rape. Both are without doubt on equal grounds. If we consider a death match between those two, then Mwk will kill Shanks. However he will lose two arms and other body while accomplishing that.

PS: I took the freedom to answer on posts which are from a another thread. I was avoiding going off topic.

lol how can you be so sure that shanks will lose to mihawk?

nobody knows how strong mihawk and shanks is... nobody has pushed them to their limits atm. most of all are fodders that made them show a bit of their strength, but their names will give anyone goosebumps.

 

[BlackHair]

What the whole manga had showed, is that Yonkou is a title given to a single man. For example Whitebeard. So i'm not talking about his crew, i'm talking about one Yonkou individually, with the example of Whitebeard's death making the minor thugs trespassing without fear into WB's turf. It's WB that makes Whitebeard Pirates so powerful. The example about an individual Yonkou is the strongest man in the world, so WB's existence support an individual Yonkou's calibre. Which is why i consider Shanks to be an equal to Old WB (Yonkou WB, not Prime WB), as the same kind of indidual Yonkou.

I agree, the title Yonko is only given to one single man, the captain. However would be the captain without his crew and alliance considered as a Yonkou? No. WB without his crew+alliance, would be just Whitebeard, the strongest man and a monster. But not a Yonko, Garp's words back in chapter 432 are supporting my statement.

Beside that, Yonkou also means = high tier. Shanks is a high tier, WB is a high tier and Mihawk is a high tier. So there is no real point in repeating that title. No-one said Shanks is weak or not a high tier. In fact I have repeatedly said that those two are equals.

Now here's where our opinions are different. Your interpretation about the "fighting-style title" is primarily based on the Devil Fruit, if someone has any. My interpretation about the "fighting-style title" is primarily based on the strongest skill someone has in a fight. I call it main skill. .

I agree with that. Best example would be Brook. He has a devil fruit and swordmanship in his arsenal. But his main fighting skill is sword based.

Since at the Moby Dick scene, Shanks' power was seen commented mostly about his Haki instead of his sword, my interpretation is that Shanks Haki is more recognized than his sword. Even if Haki is a support skill, it still weighs more than his swordsmanship technique, according to that Moby Dick scene. That is why my interpretation towards Shanks' main skill, strongest skill, is that it is Haki. Not his swordsmanship.

I understand ur logic. But why do you claim haki as a main skill? A main skill should be something which can be used as the only skill to finish equal opponents. But how can u finish ur equal opponents with haki alone?
Haki is a support skill, a skill which can't be used alone. It is only effective in addition with another skill. That's why I said haki is a support skill.


A example:

1. WB's quake can be used to finish of his opponents, without haki and his bisento
2. WB's bisento can be used to finish of his opponents, without haki and his quake
3. WB's haki can NOT be used to finish of his opponents, without bisento or his quake.

I hope you understand my point. Haki is a support skill, a skill which can't be considered as a main skill. There ain't no haki-mans.

I mean on your previous post / posts where you state "equals / rivals are men with similar or same kind of technique / weapon / skill so Shanks must be the same kind of swordsman as Mihawk"
(??? i don't remember the exact post but i remember you posting that kind of argument), didn't you?

I was rather trying to say that rivals are aiming for the same goal. And that rivals are mostly equals. Going by that: Kid and Law, who are confirmed to be Luffy's rivals (because all of them want to be the PK) are most likely equals. However they are using different methods and ability's to reach their goal.

So now in our case, Mihawk aimed for 1#. Same should apply for Shanks, since they were portrayed as equals. Seeing Mihawk holding the title strongest swordsman, it is only logical to asumme that both aimed for the same goal (strongest swordsman). Which means Shanks has to be a swordsman.

So, the statement i want to make about my thought towards' Shanks' swordsmanship is:
If you are a basic-level (lowest) swordsman, but you imbue your sword with Haki, it's not pure swordsmanship anymore.that makes you stronger. It's not pure swordsmanship anymore that makes you win, but more importantly the powerful haki.
That is why i accept Shanks as a swordsman, it does not matter to me at all that Shanks is a swordsman, but i consider Shanks as little bit stronger than Mihawk. Because i interpret from the scenes that Shanks' main (strongest) skill, even when using his sword, is Haki.

I don't rly see a point in this. Since the title strongest swordsman is NOT excluding swordsman with haki or swordsman with pure physical strength. The title "strongest swordsman" says to me that the s/he is the strongest among swordsman. Basically who would win against any swordsman.

To be a swordsman u need more than swordsmanship. Such factor as physical strength, agility, haki, experience etc are determining the title strongest swordsman.

In ur example with Brolly, if his fighting style is based on his swords, then he is a swordsman. Doesn't matter if he has more physical strength than other swordsman. So technically Mwk should be stronger, with his title. Same applies for Shanks, even if he is a master haki user, if his fighting style is based on swordsmanship, then is a swordsman.

Spoiler: offtopic

About Croco and Enel, this is not the right topic for that and because of that Im also spending more time than I want. So this is my last post regarding those two in this thread. If you still disagree with me, then lets just agree to disagree. We can have this discussion somewhere else if u like.

At impel down, not only his prison level is the same as Jimbei (a Shichi also, so two similarities supporting my argument here, prison level and Shichi status) in level 6, while Luffy was placed on level 5, but when faced with the demon guards. Croc's strength in beating one of them was equal to Luffy's Gear 3rd and Jimbei's karate. Can you proof it to me otherwise?

This is hardly any proof. Let's say all those demon guards shared the same defence level of 10. Means ur attacking power needs to be stronger than that, otherwise the demon guards won't fall. So just say Crocodile's attack was a 12, Jinbei's a 13 and Luffy's a 16. All those three were able to finish of their opponent with one hit, however you can't determine on merely that which was the strongest or if they were all equal. And going by my invented example, Luffy's was stronger.

Fact is, Luffy proofed already that he has superior strength and speed to Crcodile. Going by that, Crocodile can't be a high tier, otherwise Luffy would be also one. Which makes no sense, since we are only at the middle of the one piece story.

btw I just used random number, without giving any thoughts.

You place Enel on mid, but i still place him on high. The destruction level of his logia is Kizaru / Akainu level. The reason Luffy didn't die the first time Enel shot him with his lightning, is that Luffy's fortunately rubber! Lightning's speed is multiple times the speed of human, even still faster than Luffy's gear 2! But Enel can't avoid the last Golden Rifle and said that it's so fast. This shows little inconsistencies that must be made when the main enemy is required to be defeated in order for the story to progress, it's not a proof that Enel's mid-tier.

1. The power of destrucion is not a requirement to be a high tier nor proof that he is high tier. Or are you saying Rayleigh is not a high tier?

2. Lighting is faster than Luffy's G2. However Enel is not lighting, he is a human. Aa a human he still has a normal nervous system as any other human. Means even if he is incredibly fast as a lighting man, he still reacts as a normal human. Luff'ys gear 2 should surpasses that reaction time. Take G2 Luffy vs Hina as a example.

3. In a shounen manga high tier won't be defeated by the protagonists mid way through the story.

Okay, so i'll just say otherwise. Croc didn't attack Mihawk with intent to kill him. Rather to show Mihawk how badass he was. Nothing more. That was why Mihawk was still alive. Can that kind of argument be used? No, BlackHair, about this kind of things, you're the one who has no proof.

Is this is directed to my statement about Flamingo trying to get Croco attention? If yes, then I do have a proof. If you reread the situation you willl agree with me. Flamingo cut of Croco's head to get his attention. It is self explaining, since Flamingo approached Croco before, regarding fighting together vs WB.

the fact that those two opposing blows from Mihawk and Croc, also Dofla and Croc, had the same quality instead of different.

This is my point. You are only using that clash to state them as equals, while ignoring other facts.

In a shouen manga the protagonist doesn't face high tier at the beginning of the story. Otherwise there would be no development for the protagonist. Luffy fought him early in the story. While it is hinted that the SHs (Zoro) will face Mihawk rather near the end of the story. This is a very fact of logic.

IF Corcodile wouldn't have lost to Luffy prior to his clash with Mihawk, then I would agree with you. Since as you sid, the clash is portraying them as equals. However we have reasons to think otherwise. I hope you understnad my point.

lol how can you be so sure that shanks will lose to mihawk?

My opinion is based on canon which we are given atm. So don't lol me if you have no arguments on ur own.

Lastly once again I repeat, Mihawk has to be hidden plot-wise for later story. Oda could not let him go all out and show us his real power. Mihawk was one of the few who left the war without any signs of battle (sweat, scratches, dirt etc.. = no damgelines at all). Think about it for a second.

 

[elitefox]

If you REreread my post, you can see that I have " proved " with facts that in the case of Whitebeard, his own personal strenght was a major contributor to his status as a Yonkou. I don't really see AGAIN the link between that and this answer.

Now to be even clearer : I've never said that Whitebeard's crew was not a major contributor to his Yonkou status. I've said that I didn't agree with you when you said that Shanks' personal strenght was not a major contributor to his Yonkou status - and I've explained that in the case of another Yonkou - Whitebeard - it was definitely a major contributor.

Even if you prove that Whitebeard's crew was a major contributor, it does not mean that Whitebeard's personal strenght was not. Anyway, Whitebeard's crew was definitely not THE contributor but A contributor.

I think it's difficult to deny that Whitebeard's personal strenght was a major contributor to his Yonkou status when it was stated that silver medalists could not make it in NW because of a single man'strenght, and when this man was said to be Roger's only equal.

It's just like saying Roger's personal strenght was not a major contributor to his Pirate King title, and won't be for Luffy. The captain's personal strenght is absolutely necessary for a pirate crew to be one of the stronger. It's not the only necessary thing but it is definitely one of the most important, and especially in the case of crews such like Yonkou's.

Clever with words eh?


The question is:

Can Mihawk stop the war?
Will BB stop if Mihawk i'll fight you head on then?


In this case, you can tell that shanks is a stronger individual but maybe not the strongest swordsman or he doesn't consider himself as a swordsman but a pirate so its a win win situation.

I think the manga states that only mihawk is always challenging him.

 

[BlackHair]

I think the manga states that only mihawk is always challenging him.

Rly.. where?

 

[kkck]

Clever with words eh?


The question is:

Can Mihawk stop the war?
Will BB stop if Mihawk i'll fight you head on then?


In this case, you can tell that shanks is a stronger individual but maybe not the strongest swordsman or he doesn't consider himself as a swordsman but a pirate so its a win win situation.

I think the manga states that only mihawk is always challenging him.

Shanks didn't singlehandely stop the war though. He had his very overpowered crew behind him. Odds are each of his crewmembers is about as strong as either akainu, aokiji or kizaru. Rockstar wasn't even shown so I guess people with bounties bordering in the 100 mil are not even worth considering here....

 

[Antares]

BlackHair,

I agree, the title Yonko is only given to one single man, the captain. However would be the captain without his crew and alliance considered as a Yonkou? No. WB without his crew+alliance, would be just Whitebeard, the strongest man and a monster. But not a Yonko, Garp's words back in chapter 432 are supporting my statement.

Good argument. The thing is, i consider a Yonkou's crew materials and alliance as consequences of one being strong enough to be a Yonkou. While you consider crew materials and alliance as causes of someone being a Yonkou, which i disagree with. I use the WB's example. Most of his main crew were still alive, however Brownbeard invaded his territory without anymore fear, because the Yonkou (WB) himself was dead already. This supports the main factor of Brownbeard's fear of a Yonkou was the individual Yonkou himself, instead of his crew material.

Beside that, Yonkou also means = high tier. Shanks is a high tier, WB is a high tier and Mihawk is a high tier. So there is no real point in repeating that title. No-one said Shanks is weak or not a high tier. In fact I have repeatedly said that those two are equals.

I disagree with this, since Mihawk already said that there is sure gap between his and WB's strength / power (in the slash which was blocked by Jozu), while Shanks' blow quality was shown to be equal to WB's (sky split scene) and furthermore Shanks' words "Despite being my enemy, WB is a man who deserves my respect" showed that Shanks individually is strong enough to match WB.

I'll ask you this: Which part of the manga especially shows that Mihawk's skill/power is equal to WB's? Is it Mihawk's no.1 swordsman title?

I understand ur logic. But why do you claim haki as a main skill? A main skill should be something which can be used as the only skill to finish equal opponents. But how can u finish ur equal opponents with haki alone?
Haki is a support skill, a skill which can't be used alone. It is only effective in addition with another skill. That's why I said haki is a support skill.


A example:

1. WB's quake can be used to finish of his opponents, without haki and his bisento
2. WB's bisento can be used to finish of his opponents, without haki and his quake
3. WB's haki can NOT be used to finish of his opponents, without bisento or his quake.

I hope you understand my point. Haki is a support skill, a skill which can't be considered as a main skill. There ain't no haki-mans.

If Mihawk is no.1 swordsman, then Shanks in the past (who used a sword) shouldn't be his equal if he used only swordsmanship, but below him. Shanks' Haki scene showed that Shanks Haki is more noticed by WB rather than his sword/swordsmanship.

That's why i said our interpretation of "main skill in fighting" is different.

-Your interpretation: even if Shanks' weapon is imbued with Haki, Shanks' fighting title / main strength should still be "swordsman", because sword is his main physical weapon.

-My interpretation: If Shanks put Haki in his sword, like WB's quake which can be imbued in his bisento, then Shanks' fighting title / main strength is not "swordsman" anymore yet "Haki-based".

We can go repeatedly again about this concept of swordsman but i believe we won't find clear answer before Oda state his definition of swordsman and Haki. Yet, i believe we must analyze further the meaning of two titles "Shichibukai" and "Yonkou" (like in your previous yet deleted post)

edit:

It has been known in the latest chapter that Haki is a whole other discipline of skill. If you put an armament Haki to your arm or weapon, it's has other level of strength and function. This supports that Shanks' power level is independent from Mihawk's no.1 swordsman title, because Shanks has powerful Haki which is another tool. Mihawk has no.1 sword + no.1 swordskill. Shanks has sword + swordskill + haki. It's only natural to combine Haki with your other best skill / weapon. Just like Luffy later will imbue his rubber punch with Haki because rubber martial arts is his best skill / weapon all this time before discovering Haki, so it's really fits for Shanks to combine his swordskill with Haki.

 

[BlackHair]

Good argument. The thing is, i consider a Yonkou's crew materials and alliance as consequences of one being strong enough to be a Yonkou. While you consider crew materials and alliance as causes of someone being a Yonkou, which i disagree with.

I already said once, that every Yonkou can be considered a high tier. So let's not waste time by circling around definitions. Furthermore the title Yonko has no meaning in a fight between two high tier.

So I have a quick easy question: Yonko?
a) Shanks is a Yonko 'cause he is a high tier
b) Shanks is a Yonko 'cause he is a high tier and leader of a mighty army, which is again filled with high tiers.

If your answer is b, then I agree with u. Hopefully then, this "Yonko" title argument will lose value in this discussion.

I disagree with this, since Mihawk already said that there is sure gap between his and WB's strength / power (in the slash which was blocked by Jozu), while Shanks' blow quality was shown to be equal to WB's (sky split scene) and furthermore Shanks' words "Despite being my enemy, WB is a man who deserves my respect" showed that Shanks individually is strong enough to match WB.

I disagree with ur "poor" logic of equality, I will explain later why. There is a difference in being a "true equal" and someone who can fight on "equal grounds". WB's confirmed true equal was only Roger and possibly Garp, but no one else.

Shanks clashing with WB doesn't mean they are true equals. It's just confirmed that Shanks can hold his own against WB, the strongest man (= fight him on equal grounds). Same goes for any high tier (Admirals, Yonko, Mwk etc).

Mwk said that the gap between them has seemed to have shortened. Means Mwk couldn't defeat him before, but now he got the feeling he can or that he can fight him as a true equal. Also I don't get how you can put Shanks as WB's equal based on his words of respect alone. Don't get me wrong, Shanks is capable of fighting him equally, however his words of respect have another meaning all together.

Anyway, I called ur logic of equality "poor", because you are putting every high tier on equal grounds, which makes no sense or whatsoever. Even among high tier there is a ranking. Simple example based on Bleach's espada: the primera (1) would beat nr9 without any problems. Now because of that, can be nr9 still considered as a espada? Of course he can. My point in here should be understandable.

I'll ask you this: Which part of the manga especially shows that Mihawk's skill/power is equal to WB's? Is it Mihawk's no.1 swordsman title?

Partly yes, but also how the relation is based. I explained in my previous posts why I consider Mwk as a high tier. And above I explained the meaning of "equality". I hope this is enough to answer ur question.

If Mihawk is no.1 swordsman, then Shanks in the past (who used a sword) shouldn't be his equal if he used only swordsmanship, but below him.

In the past, Mwk wasn't the n1 swordsman. In the red datebook it says that both were equals and fighting for the top. Or sth along the lines.

Shanks' Haki scene showed that Shanks Haki is more noticed by WB rather than his sword/swordsmanship.

Meaningless point ur are making here. Let me remind u that Oda used Shanks in that scene to present Haki to his reader. The second time he used haki, as he blocked Akainus fist, no one mentioned Shanks haki either.

It has been known in the latest chapter that Haki is a whole other discipline of skill. If you put an armament Haki to your arm or weapon, it's has other level of strength and function. This supports that Shanks' power level is independent from Mihawk's no.1 swordsman title, because Shanks has powerful Haki which is another tool. Mihawk has no.1 sword + no.1 swordskill. Shanks has sword + swordskill + haki. It's only natural to combine Haki with your other best skill / weapon. Just like Luffy later will imbue his rubber punch with Haki because rubber martial arts is his best skill / weapon all this time before discovering Haki, so it's really fits for Shanks to combine his swordskill with Haki.

There was nothing new we learned about haki, at least nothing for me. Beside the names and it's classification.

Furthermore, swordsmanship + haki = still a swordsman. I don't see how ur point is trying to point out that Shanks is not swordsman.

My opinion/vote hasn't changed. If anything then that Zoro's last major sword foe, might not be Mwk anymore.. I hope Im wrong here, but Oda messed things up with the new "master - student" relationship between them.

We can go repeatedly again about this concept of swordsman but i believe we won't find clear answer before Oda state his definition of swordsman and Haki. Yet, i believe we must analyze further the meaning of two titles "Shichibukai" and "Yonkou" (like in your previous yet deleted post)

I agree with this. Have been absent for a while. I wanted to close this up, that's why this one last post quoting urs. Just like you I get the feeling we got nowhere 'till Oda says sth. So lets hold this for now by agreeing to disagree.

PS: I deleted my post, cause I felt it was offtopic. I might create it's own topic for that, if there isn't one.

regards
bhair

 

[xeteboi]

You are saying that Shanks is not a swordman because you want him to be stronger than Mihawk.

Ill site you a simple logic
1.)His title as the greatest swordsman is not comparable to a Yonkou.
2.)Vista is at Mihawk's level, Shanks is at Whitebeared
3.)Stopping an attack from an Admiral using a haki? Do you think Mihawk can match that up?

 

[BlackHair]

Ill site you a simple logic
1.)His title as the greatest swordsman is not comparable to a Yonkou.
2.)Vista is at Mihawk's level, Shanks is at Whitebeared
3.)Stopping an attack from an Admiral using a haki? Do you think Mihawk can match that up?

1.) It seems u don't know what a Yonko is.
2.) Don't look down on one of the top three commanders of WB, they are high tier themselves. Vista, Mwk, Shanks and many other namely confirmed high tier are on WB's lvl.
3.) So you are saying that Akanu can one-hit a fellow high tier? I lol'd.

 

[xeteboi]

1.) It seems u don't know what a Yonko is.
2.) Don't look down on one of the top three commanders of WB, they are high tier themselves. Vista, Mwk, Shanks and many other namely confirmed high tier are on WB's lvl.
3.) So you are saying that Akanu can one-hit a fellow high tier? I lol'd.

What? it seems that you are the one who don't know what a yonkou is... omfg.
Another is Vista is not on the top three commanders of WB.. Thatch is on fourth, definitely hes on 5th. .rofl. Ace being the 2nd commander of WB pirates is killed by Akainu and youre saying that Vista is the level of Shanks, my gosh.. Youre really showing that youre a Shanks antagonist.

 

[BlackHair]

What? it seems that you are the one who don't know what a yonkou is... omfg.
Another is Vista is not on the top three commanders of WB.. Thatch is on fourth, definitely hes on 5th. .rofl. Ace being the 2nd commander of WB pirates is killed by Akainu and youre saying that Vista is the level of Shanks, my gosh.. Youre really showing that youre a Shanks antagonist.

First of all, the title Yonko is acquired through crew achievements. Shanks is a Yonko coz his crew is backing him up. Now Im tired to explain it (again) in details. Just reread Garp's words on W7. Those Yonko are translated as Emperor. Without a army a emperor wouldn't be one. That title means in a 1vs1 thread almost nothing, except proofing that Shanks is indeed a high-tier.

And secondly the numbers of WB's commanders have little meaning. Where is ur ranking idea coming from anyway? Bleach's espada perhaps?! There are no indication in the manga or anywhere else, which states those number being ordered by strength. Infact Ace was given the 2nd division, coz that seat was just empty.

Im not calling Jozu, Marco and Vista randomly high-tier and WB's top commanders, Im saying that based on their feats. These two points put them above the rest:

1. All all of them were shown equally fighting against high-tier (Admirals and Mwk).
2. Furthermore they are confirmed haki users.

Instead of calling me a Shanks hater, get ur facts straight. Don't base ur vote and opinion on poorly conceived thoughts. btw Im not a Shanks hater, infact my nick is based on his charackter.

 

[scav]

well i voted shanks, i don't think mihawk have the level of a yonkou. Maybe the swordsman skills of mihawk are better than the swordsman of Shanks but the haki and the natural power of Shanks are much better than the haki of mihawk, i have no doubt about it. Shanks was able to cross sword with WB and cut the sky, i don't think mihawk can do that.

 

[smoker559]

maybe they're still even after all these years.

 

[mattiaildivino]

it's sure that now Shanks is much better than mihawk:he's an emperor,while drakul mihawk is a shichibukai. emperors are the strongest of the world,the only ones who could contrast Whitebeard. it's true that mihawk is the strongest swordman,but it's also true that he's got the strongest sword,the black sword. in facts remember that Shanks' jolly roger hasn't got the bones,but the swords. I think Mihawk is consider the strongest just because shanks has only one arm. Shanks has got the royal ambition,while mihawk not,he could(or better,should) have the simple haki,but not the royal one!