Schabrak, you've got very good arguments.
About the flag, it was good argument. But you should also acknowledge that Luffy's flag didn't include rubber bands, WB's flag didn't include Quake or Bisento. The flag just meant Shanks used a sword. Because his strawhat, his trademark, was lent to Luffy? Could possibly.
Did you really read his argument? He said that they didn't struggle with him, when fighting them directly, not when they were distracted. Afterwards you even admit, that they got dominated, when they were distracted[by trying to help Whitebeard] and that's why they where no real challange to the admirals. Losing because of simple distraction proves them not being a close match. It's war and they, in their respective position as the strongest force on WBs side, can't lose because of such a idiotic act.
The Luffy vs Lucci example was flawed, because Luffy focused on Lucci only. The whole WB commanders vs admiral also couldn't prove that WB commander weren't close matches to the admirals. I admit they got dominated, but it's got nothing to do with the strength level. Because their focus was to help Pops. For example, Moria was fighting against Pacifistas, and Dofla landed the finishing blow while Moria wasn't looking. Did it mean that Dofla's stronger? No.
* Aren't you forgetting something? Akainu did take Whitebeard 1on1, took him down for some moments by punching his chest, took half of his face! Whitebeard had attacked him with a sucker-punch, which he had a reason for, but was in a perspective of a equal fight, gutless. Stop just choosing whatever seems the best in your argument[taking on a weakened Ace or Fishman Jinbei].
Akainu also cheated on him much worse before, while Pops kneeled and coughed blood because of the age effects plus a hole in his heart. Akainu rip his heart with magma powers, pretty much similar to the blow that finished Ace, except that it directly hit his heart. How much of a cheating do you think that is? Much more handicap to WB, obviously. And that first punch from WB to Akainu didn't matter much, he got up quickly and tore WB's face. The second punch which rip the island, though, had no trick and was unstoppable by Akainu anyway.
* Can't say anything against putting Croc on a stage with Doflamingo and Mihawk, as they are extremely good swordsman without any comparison in a fight. Donquixotes marionette-fruit can't be that useful against a logia user like Croc, so he would be in a big disadvantige, if they were ever to fight against each other. Oda holding back to show much of him[dofla] shows
Yes, i know, but this is why i don't see why bother to consider Dofla as, for example, admiral level or yonkou level, while the proofs available just showed that he was equal to another Ex Shichis such as Croc.
* Kuma is without doubt a "end-game"[I don't see anybody here on the same stage, but as strongest of the pirate world, being able to fight people as strong as admirals on equal grounds] pirate, but only when he's acutally able to think for himself[or just basing his strength], not being controlled by a chip from Vegapuk. The A.I.[he must have one, when he isn't able to control himself] isn't comparable to one we see in SciFi movies, where they are able to process thousands or millions of things at the same time.
I know his Fruit and body should be able to make him an end-gamer. But to be involved in an equal fight against Ivankov, who get beaten by Magellan? Until he fights a non-Shichi high-tier pirate / marine, i don't see him as living up to his potential that we all excpect of him.
* Because they did not beat some major characters, they are weaker than the admirals? You like to stay on facts? Please do so yourself. Without a fight between those, we can't say much about them. There are no levels in One Piece.
Of course they were weaker than admirals. Shichis are pirates which gained immunity with the condition of them not opposing the admirals, right? If one of them was as strong or stronger than an admiral - for example, the current Teach - how can the marines control them? Akainu told Jimbei specifically. "You, as a Shichibukai, should know the difference in our powers." After all, why did WB as individual didn't get recruited as Shichibukai? Because he didn't strong enough? Because he's too strong. Marines couldn't control him. There are levels, hierarchy, in One Piece. But Oda made them natural.
I have to disagree. I don't like how people can be so narrow-minded, to think that characters are only able to master one martial art. Why can't they be masters of more than one fighting style? They are all experienced pirates/marines/revolutionaries/whatever with decades of experience.
Brook's main strength is fencing with his sword and has techniques for that[which is a swordsmanship obviously], while also being able to use his Shikomizue onto a violin to create the lullaby. But here it's only a suplement, taking advantage of his musical experience.
About Luffy: We can't say much about Luffy's strength without his DF, but that he was trained by Garp/Dadan, which doesn't say much about his normal hand-to-hand combat ability. And still he uses pure hand-to-hand/feet combat which is enhanced by his ruberbody.
Whitebeard on the other hand is capable of using long rage attacks[pure Devil-Fruit] as well as hand-to-hand combat[enhanced and not] and swordmanship[enhanced and not]. It's distinct that Devil Fruit users are named after their "powers"... so he's called Quakeman for no other reason than it being his most striking[and strongest] feature. Besides giants, he must have been the most experienced human on earth, so who would doubt that he was able to learn those skills to the fullest in his life?
So why did, just because Shanks wield a sword - an ordinary sword, it seems, since no one commented about it - Mihawk-supporting people considered him as the same kind of swordsman as Mihawk? As someone who could NOT master any other discipline other than swordsmanship? Newgate can punch with putting physical power to punch as the same level as Usopp's punch, but none of that matters if he fused Haki and Quake into his punch. Or his bisento. It still destroys an island. The special thing Jozu and WB noticed about him in chapter 434 was his Haki, not his sword or swordsmanship. This is the main reason why i think Shanks is not a swordsman. Heck, his swordsmanship could be weaker than even Hacchan. We don't know.
* And his over-confidence returned in the nicest way possible, by Sengokus shockwaves, crippling down nearly everyone from his crew.
Quote:
10-11
Shanks: ...then step forward!!! We... // ...will be your opponents!!!
People: ?!! // ...............!!
Shanks: What do you say, Teach.........?!! ...Or rather......... "Blackbeard"...
Blackbeard: .................. // ...Zehahahah! Fine, let's take a break.........!! / I've got what I came here for. It's not the time just yet... // ...to be taking on the likes of you...!!! // Zehahahah... Let's get outta here, men!!
Sengoku: .........
* Where does he challange him personal here? It's clearly the Red Hair's crew, that he puts against everybody on the island. He firstly told the remaining WB forces/adressing Marco to stop and he did so immediately. Than he adressed the rest, with his main attention to the marines and finally adressed Blackbeard, to take him out his madness, who backed of casualy by saying, that he had gained what he came for.
* If that is blazing cool, what a fanboy, than half of the cast in the chapter, had done the same... reread the chapter please. Also his eye was twiching as a reminder of his past confrontation, which isn't cool, but a sign of weaknes in my opinion.
* Doesn't change the fact, that WB was still the strongest man on earth. You can turn sphere, it will stay same from every angle.
And after that, after the Buddha Shockwave, you should remember that Teach's taunt still applied and even came to the verge of fighting. "I'm gonna close the book of your age as well!" he still thought he can beat the two strongest Marines, along with other thousands of Marines and Shichibukai in Marine's side. But someone that cocky backed off while Shanks challenged him. It might apply as the challenge from the whole Red-Haired Pirates, but again, Red-Hair Pirates' burden was heavier. They had to be ready to oppose all sides there. Shichis, Marines, WBs, BBs, etc. And in that panel, Shanks' grudge wasn't going to be finished by all Red-Hair Pirates vs Teach. It was gonna be Shanks vs Teach. Shanks' fairness to the Marines and WB implied that.
"fighting
'the likes of you'? Teach, being uncertain of his capabilies even now? And that stare, inducing Teach's silence and forfeit, it
was cool.
WB was still the strongest man on earth. But don't forget that Kidd said in chapter 581 "Red-Hair, Kaidou, Big Mum...Now that the balance has crumbled, blablabla.." he said, mentioning the balance of powers between Yonkou. WB Pirates still existed, why did Kidd say that? It means each Yonkou is closely matched. Because each Yonkou, not his/her crews, was irreplacable. If Shanks was "just" as strong as Akainu, for example, WB can just defeat him in an arranged fair one on one fight and take his crews as his own. But he didn't. They wouldn't call it "balance" if WB's strength was overwhelmingly above each of the three. It was not WB's age anymore, like in chapter 0. He's weakened, that's why there was balance in Yonkou.
Proof is what is told by himself and that is, that we won't take on a weakened, one handed Shanks. That's even more proof, than anybody triyng to give Shanks being the overlord in the last chapter. We saw Shanks counter Akainu once, that's all. Just to be able to say, that Mihawk is "weak", you try to find a loophole by saying that his titles is irrelevant? But this discussion is meaningles till we see more of them.
Yes, but proof is also what's done by oneself. Mihawk didn't defeat Vista, or any other WB commanders. Marco saw that Vista would roughly equal Mihawk. That was why he told Vista to help Luffy.
Although, i agree that Mihawk's numero uno swordsman. Which is why i think Shanks is no swordsman.
And Schabrak, please give arguments that support Mihawk also. I defend Shanks, you attack Shanks, and so on. We talks about Shanks too much here.
