Sorry, haven't been here for a while. Lively thread
Fox666,
If remember well, the marines and Sengoku said something about capturing the level 6 prisoners. But that is not important.
My point is just that Sengoku was attacking Blackbeard, and if Blackbeard could he would avoid the battle he would do so, and Shanks provided the opportunity to do so.
Sengoku was attacking BB. This i agree with. But BB didn't want to avoid the battle, ever. He challenged Sengoku and Garp even after being attacked.
Well, are you saying it's just because of Shanks himself? if you think that Sengoku, the 3 Admirals, Garp and Blackbeard stopped just because of one man?
I can be wrong, but I can imagine that if Shanks said "I will go myself, my crew won't interfere" the 3 admirals would just jump over him.
It's not because Shanks himself, but imagine this: The Red-Hair Pirates challenged ALL sides, and they ALL back off. Shanks challenged BB, and BB backed off. Did you see Ben Beckmann or Yasopp or Lucky Roux challenging BB or even taunting him? No, they didn't wanna interfere their captain's command. Did that seem like BB versus Red-Hair Pirates to you? Who challenged BB? Whose voice? I don't see anyone else from his crew challenging him. Whose stare? Whose three-scar GRUDGE? If BB could inflict those three scars then, even before he got his darkness fruit, why on earth would he back off NOW, after gaining two overpowered fruits? Because Shanks
development from then to this point, was still unsurpassed by Blackbeard's.
Just read my post again. You did not really oppose me. I said he loose his agility, but the Gura Gura no Mi is still strong as before.
Do you think health problems just affect agility and not anything else like, say, muscle strength, ability to recognize the surroundings, and everything else the body contains? Why exclude ability to use fruit? I really think it's affected.
He took a blank shot from Whitebeard and could still stand almost like nothing happened. That just proves he plagging for his life is pathetic, but has nothing to do with the strenght.
Also, he took an slash from Whitebeard as he did with everybody... he keep talking and them the opponent suddenly attack. And the worst case was Magellan, not Whitebeard.
In Ace's and Magellan's case, he was being hurt by the opponents' attack, and he stated so, because his defense was weak. But in Whitebeard's case, Teach was
pleading for his life. This is entirely different kind of situation.
Marco did better against the 3 admirals than Whitebeard. Whitebeard is clearly stronger, but the difference is not big.
WB was fighting Kizaru and Akainu practically at the same time, and he still beaten Akainu. Marco fought only Kizaru and a vice-admiral (or an ordinary Marine?), want to help Pops, and thus got owned. I think it's quite a difference.
DutchPhoenix
yet people think he aint swordsman because he aint the nr.1 swordsman lol
Shanks is NOT the number one swordsman. Mihawk IS. But Shanks' main skill is NOT swordsmanship. That's what i state. lol.
BlackHair,
MHQ+7Gods-> To execute Ace and to kill WB = success
WB was killed by BB and his crew altogether.
He is a Yonko, a leader of a army which is capable of fighting the MHQ equally. While Mihawk, a Shichubukai is just a sole man. This thread is about Mwk vs SHanks in a fair 1vs1, not RH pirates vs Mihawk. So I don't rly see any relevance in the title "Yonko". That title can be only aimed with a mighty crew and a strong leader. It also puts Shanks as high tier, even if we haven't seen his fighting strength. However Mihawk with his own title "strongest swordsman" can be also automatically considered as a high-tier fighter.
I do get that Mihawk disappointed everyone on that battlefield. However Mihawk and certain other (Flamingo, Garp.. etc) are plot-wise needed for future arcs. He left the battle without scratches and without any sign of exhaustion, basically he wasn't forced to go out. Witch indicates that Oda is saving him. So don't call him off yet.
I do agree that Mihawk is the number one swordsman in the world. On the other hand, we've seen Mihawk fighting quite many times. If we haven't seen Shanks fighting for more than two seconds (one second was against WB, and another second was stopping Akainu), why considering him exclusively as a leader-only political person?
Every force on that battlefield were exhausted, weakened and had no real goal anymore to fight for. The Marines who archived their goal were still lusting after blood. BB who got WB's fruit was even asking for more. Simply said everyone went crazy. Only after Red-Hair pirates arrival, the forces calmed down. Shanks appeared with his mighty crew (fresh and rdy to go) appealed to everyone to stop the war. No one was afraid of anyone. Everyone archived their goal, except the Whitebeard pirates, so there was no more fighting needed.
If you want to give credit to Shanks, then praise his politicial-power and influence as a Yonko, but don't put him as some mighty one-man army.
There's no proof that they didn't afraid. Backing-off supports them acknowledging Red-Hair Pirates' strength. And if one Yonkou was successful in making Marine + Shichi generate their full strength like this arc. It was a challenge that indicate nothing, if those sides wanna continue, but a second war against Red-Hair Pirates. Those responses to the challenge, after BBs taunting and Sengoku's anger towards BB and all those other things, means a Yonkou is being acknowledge for his strength. If Shanks apologize politely, it was because and after Sengoku agreed to stop the Marines from engaging any further, and leave the mournings to Red-Hair.
No, i'm not considering Shanks as one-man army, but i want to state that Shanks is the strongest in Red-Hair Pirates, and i want to state Shanks as equal to current super BB, due to BB's response.
and finally, Schabrak,
How do you that it isn't his main weapon or technique? There is just no answer in form of statement[source] to that question in perticular now. What speaks for it, that he wields a sword, that he clashed Whitebeard with his sword, which was followed by an outburst of power, however that might be connected to haki, stopped Akainu with a sword, where his sword was most probably infused with haki or he himself used haki to stop/disable the admirals powers[I don't want to talk about the powers of haki here, just mention them, as it occurs that he used it in those situations too.] and yeah his flag still has two swords on it. On the other side you have no source to claim, that it's not his main strength/technique. A weapon would be a sword or a gun, and so it is his main weapon. :P [Yeah there are other definitions for a weapon, just joking.]
1. When Shanks arrived atop of Moby Dick, Jozu and even the Old Man himself acknowledge his Haki, but NOT his sword.
2. Chapter where Shanks was shown being able to stop three sides from fighting, making super BB retreat after Shanks challenge toward him, and making Sengoku agreed to compromise with him after the Red-Hair challenge. This showed that Shanks was stronger than Mihawk. So this was the reason that i think the sword is not Shanks' main weapon/skill/whatever.
So: Mihawk is the world number one swordsman,
that's exactly why i strongly think Shanks' main skill/weapon/whatever is not a sword or his swordsmanship.
How do we know Oda didn't want to show us exactly that? That robots/androids, however strong they are, are not capable of fighting like a real/full human. Him being reprogrammed was like de demotion, he could have lost his intuition as a human, letting him depend on his raw powers. Robocop with his own mind ftw. But that's only my asumption.
On the fact, that it didn't kill the Mugiwaras: Do you mean the one, that send them to their isles? As Luffy himself said, he didn't try to kill them there, just wanted them to be seperated, used his paw powers, so that their landing wasn't lethal. If he hadn't done so, they all would be dead.
I mean from his encounter at Thriller Bark. And nevertheless, i still saw his strength as Ivankov-level, which translates to Shichibukai level. I do
want him to be an end-gamer, though, but seeing this arc especially, what can i do
I don't know how you came to such conclusion. I never even thought of him being a pawn. His appearances in the Shichibukai meetings did show the exact opposite, that he only cares for his own interest. His reasons to attend are: knowing Luffy/Zorro and seeing his potential; seeking a challenge in fighting strong opponents aka Whitebeard and crew. His past confrontations with Shanks led him to his conclusion not to fight. Would he see a challenge in it, he would have done so, but he saw no gain in it and so stopped [And because they have such deep connection.
Now, this we must discuss further. My thinking for Mihawk being a (pardon this term again) Shichi-level is not just in this arc, but back from the beginning of the manga, where he was already a Shichi. Becoming a Shichi gained some immunity from the WG, but also compensate in one's agreement to do the dirty work, such as this arc. Jimbei opposed and this marked his resignation as a Shichi. I dunno if there's impeachment in the system, but if Jimbei didn't obey, wouldn't WG fire him, like how a well-structured employment - or maybe, deal- should be?
Furthermore, Dofla's "There's a certain power level to be included in Shichi" and Akainu's "You, as Shichi, should realize the difference in our power!" supports this "Shichi-level" argument of mine.
Yeah those aren't. But the powers of Devil Fruits can influence fighting styles, like it does with Luffy's martial arts and can create a mixture. Don't want to give it a name, would be to childish. A sword is used by different fighting styles, being sub-categories of swordmanship, like Zorros three-sword style or Brooks fencing. Thus said, using a sword to fight brutal and raw and/or using techniques with such[even raw slashes must have a his called swordmanship.
Yes, yes, i know Shanks
has swordsmanship, but from my previous conclusion of premises:
1. When Shanks arrived atop of Moby Dick, Jozu and even the Old Man himself acknowledge his Haki, but NOT his sword.
2. Chapter where Shanks was shown being able to stop three sides from fighting, making super BB retreat after Shanks challenge toward him, and making Sengoku agreed to compromise with him after the Red-Hair challenge. This showed that Shanks was stronger than Mihawk. So this was the reason that i think the sword is not Shanks' main weapon/skill/whatever.
So: Mihawk is the world number one swordsman, that's exactly why i strongly think Shanks' main skill/weapon/whatever is not a sword or his swordsmanship.
If you imbue a bisento with quake + haki, can you still call it bisento fighting style? So, if you imbue an ordinary cutlass sword (again, because none seemed to give commentaries about Shanks' sword, unlike Mihawk's Black Sword which is recognized in awe by everyone) with super Haki (a different category just like quake, not muscle strength, not speed, not sword technique) that participated in cutting the skies (atmosphere, as in gas molecules?), intangible thingies, and stopping Akainu's magma fist as though the fist was solid, can you still define that as swordsmanship? I don't think it would be defined by Oda as swordsmanship anymore.
We have different definitions of what's called acomplished, what isn't exactly a bad thing, but let us diferenciate. What did he try to acomplish? My thought is that he tried to find a challenging opponent, yours seems to be to simply own somebody [strong].
He just never got to fight anybody he wanted to [for a long time]. The ones, that would be a real challenge like Marco or Jozu or Whitebeard, were taken by the admirals. Dracule doesn't seem to be a person that would take advantage of such a situation and fight somebody else two on one, so he took the only other opponent in his reach, namely Vista. And in that short clash, he did not seem to have a hard time. But the situation of the war took Vista away, before they could finish their fight. As often said, swordsman can fight for a long[er] time, even if they a not of the same strength. Later on he trialed Luffy, but got interrupted again by Daz Bones and Croc. So not being able to fight one on one for a long time doesn't speak for him being weak.
If you don't put Teachs accomplishment into the equation and that he got nothing more to gain, he did took Whitebeards powers and probably just wanted to test them out on some strong fellas like Sengoku, I wont accept your argument as a proof to anything. It's still a debate, if it was Shanks or his whole crew that changed the situation, so don't take your own opinion as fact, please. So nothing did boldly state his power, as we still haven't seen a glimpse of him fighting for real.
Wouldn't it be best to wait for a moment in the Manga, when he have seen them fight to continue the discussion ?
Great train of thought. First off, i never considered Mihawk as weak. I just saw Mihawk, despite his advantage-hating nature, as really strong. But if you see from Vista's side, it was Mihawk that want to adjourn the fight, and Vista agreed. I don't think Vista is Mihawk's equal, especially we haven't seen them fight each other to the death undisturbed. But then, during that fight, it was not seen that Vista is weaker. So the argument could also worked both ways. Of course, Mihawk fought Luffy before, and numerous WB pirates - and don't forget Kamabakkas
- before, but didn't also Vista? What i'm saying for Mihawk is, at most, Mihawk is almost at admiral level, just like Marco.
As for Shanks, it was the whole Red-Hair Pirates that made all sides forfeit. But that alone depicts Shanks' strength as an individual. Akainu was shocked when Shanks entered (did you see Akainu shocked before anywhere, even in his fights with Whitebeard?) and Mihawk equalized him in the same sentence with Whitebeard "I agreed to warring against Whitebeard, but Red-Hair is outside the scope of agreement.", Blackbeard said "...it's not the time yet to fight the likes of you", it was my conclusion from the premises. Yes, it all and Shanks' status as a Yonkou, as Old Whitebeard's equal, just implied to me that the favor weighs to Shanks' side,
not proof.
If i seem arrogant to state my argument as proof, that's because i want to oppose the opinions that made Mihawk as a super-dominant force unstoppable by all, and Shanks as a cripple that no longer worthy to fight Mihawk (even without knowing their actual past fights) and furthermore, stating
their argument as proof. Thanks Schabrak, i'm also gonna wait for the actual manga development. In the mean time, is there any knowledge or debate thread you often participate in? I'd love to jump in, who knows we're gonna be on the same side that time.
