Movies Star Wars - The Thread

[xi0]

Well, as far as we know qui gon did not look for understanding of the dark side nor used it. IIRC qui gon's issues with the jedi related to his disagreements with them and their way to do things. I wouldn't call qui gon any sort of neutral either.

I am not sure if lawful evil applies to the sith either... Technically they acted according to the law but only on the surface. If we consider the emperor, dooku and vader they always technically acted according to the law but only because by all intents and purposes they were the law (palpatine and vader of the empire and dooku of the confederacy).

My point here would be finally bringing and sustaining balance to the force. Perhaps something like having elements of the dark side without being corrupted by it by using emotions other than hatred (like the sith) to tap into it. Say love, compassion and so on. Take luke, he didn't turn vader from the dark side by being a detached asshole, it was because of his compassion and love for his father that vader eventually turned back.

I didn't say Quigon was neutral, did I? I said he was closer to chaotic good than lawful good, like the Jedi Council.

The Empire under Sith control was definitely lawful evil. It doesn't matter that Sidious and Vader were at the top of the food chain. Even before the Sith rose back to power, they still lived by a "code". They had motivation for why they did what they did.

I think the whole conversation of "balance" is pretty up in the air considering the EU no longer matters. Obviously this is based on prophecy, which has no definite means of interpretation. We could see some of the Jedi's rhetoric about this prophecy and say that the true path is being neither good or evil, but neutral. But clearly none of them from the movies are. It's hard to really say what "balance" Anakin was supposed to bring. If anything he did the opposite, both in killing the Jedi off, and killing Palpatine.

 

[M3J]

as the movies stand, the balance Anakin was supposed to have bring was to destroy the Sith/dark side, as the movies have a theme to it. But ultimately, maybe the balance was to exterminate the Jedi and possibly the dark side Force users because there were too many Jedi, and Palpatine was a powerful Sith who could have raised more dangerous Sith like Anakin and Maul. But then, Luke as the last Jedi.

Or maybe Anakin was supposed to bring balance by destroying the old Jedi system so a new one could be established while killin one of the most powerful Force user in Palpatine.

 

[xi0]

as the movies stand, the balance Anakin was supposed to have bring was to destroy the Sith/dark side, as the movies have a theme to it. But ultimately, maybe the balance was to exterminate the Jedi and possibly the dark side Force users because there were too many Jedi, and Palpatine was a powerful Sith who could have raised more dangerous Sith like Anakin and Maul. But then, Luke as the last Jedi.

Or maybe Anakin was supposed to bring balance by destroying the old Jedi system so a new one could be established while killin one of the most powerful Force user in Palpatine.

This is sort of my point. There's no clear meaning to what the prophecy was. Balance to the force to me is no one using the Force the way the Jedi or Sith use it, or equal foils against each other, an equilibrium. Anakin did neither of these things.

 

[M3J]

I always thought it meant finishing off the Sith as Star Wars is good vs. bad, although it didn't make sense there could be a Jedi but no Sith. I'd actually love if it was revealed that prophecy was not true or was outdated.

 

[xi0]

I always thought it meant finishing off the Sith as Star Wars is good vs. bad, although it didn't make sense there could be a Jedi but no Sith. I'd actually love if it was revealed that prophecy was not true or was outdated.

I think evidence suggests that it wasn't IMO. "Balance" means an equilibrium of sorts. What Anakin did was eradicate the Dark side, not bring any balance.

 

[kkck]

I think evidence suggests that it wasn't IMO. "Balance" means an equilibrium of sorts. What Anakin did was eradicate the Dark side, not bring any balance.

Anakin eradicated the sith, not the dark side itself (which the balance thing would imply exists on its own and is necessary). As far as I can tell the force was out of balance due to the sith. However the implication would be that before whatever turned the scales of the force happened the force would have been in balance. If we assume it was the sith who tampered with the balance of the force then removing them does not turn the tide the other way, it would restore balance. However this would also imply that before the balance was lost the force was in balance even while there were sith around. With that in mind the whole thing is so ambiguous that the amount of jedi and sith does not specifically change the tide either way. It could be relevant but not always....

 

[xi0]

Anakin eradicated the sith, not the dark side itself (which the balance thing would imply exists on its own and is necessary). As far as I can tell the force was out of balance due to the sith. However the implication would be that before whatever turned the scales of the force happened the force would have been in balance. If we assume it was the sith who tampered with the balance of the force then removing them does not turn the tide the other way, it would restore balance. However this would also imply that before the balance was lost the force was in balance even while there were sith around. With that in mind the whole thing is so ambiguous that the amount of jedi and sith does not specifically change the tide either way. It could be relevant but not always....

Yeah but none of this is really shown in what is considered the canon these days. It wouldn't have been Palpatine and Vader that created this imbalance, unless you consider the entire Empire to be employing the Dark Side of the force. And by causation, you'd have to consider the Rebel forces to be representing the Light.

I find that logic sort of faulty because Luke is the one who made the fight about Light vs Dark. And even in RoTJ, there were heavy implications that Luke wasn't solely on the Light side. His new lightsaber was green, he was dressed in black. He defeated his father the same way a Dark side force user would.

Well, regardless of what I've said, I think that my main issue with the prophecy is what exactly balance was. If both sides of the force must exist in equilibrium, how exactly was that achieved? I don't think it was.

 

[kkck]

Yeah but none of this is really shown in what is considered the canon these days. It wouldn't have been Palpatine and Vader that created this imbalance, unless you consider the entire Empire to be employing the Dark Side of the force. And by causation, you'd have to consider the Rebel forces to be representing the Light.

I find that logic sort of faulty because Luke is the one who made the fight about Light vs Dark. And even in RoTJ, there were heavy implications that Luke wasn't solely on the Light side. His new lightsaber was green, he was dressed in black. He defeated his father the same way a Dark side force user would.

Well, regardless of what I've said, I think that my main issue with the prophecy is what exactly balance was. If both sides of the force must exist in equilibrium, how exactly was that achieved? I don't think it was.

What isn't cannon? I don't think I referenced anything specific here. It's a bit of an assumption that the sith created the unbalance but I think that is reasonable enough. I doubt it takes an entire empire of dark side users to change the balance... Take the movies. The implication as far as I can tell is that sidious was the one who blocked the jedi's foresight. We are talking about a single sith being able to block the jedi's foresight presumably from anywhere in the galaxy. We are talking about a single sith blocking jedi's foresight on a galactic scale. It's not like going away from where sidious was helped them pierce the veil so to speak. What is also weird is that even feeling the unbalance is not very straightforward for the jedi. The jedi weren't aware that their foresight was blocked until something happened that they did not foresee. And they only felt the dark side around sidious when the danger he represented became clearer.

I think george lucas himself said that balance was restored when vader destroyed sidious... Although at the time the force awaken wasn't a thing and the implication there was that during the timeskip the force went dormant until the movie started....

 

[M3J]

I think evidence suggests that it wasn't IMO. "Balance" means an equilibrium of sorts. What Anakin did was eradicate the Dark side, not bring any balance.

He didn't eradicate the dark side, that's not possible as far as we know. Maybe the problem was that Sidious's power was too strong that it brought imbalance, and with his death the Force was more in balance. Luke isn't strong or wicked enough to bring such imbalance the way Sidious did, and Anakin was dying.

Yeah but none of this is really shown in what is considered the canon these days. It wouldn't have been Palpatine and Vader that created this imbalance, unless you consider the entire Empire to be employing the Dark Side of the force. And by causation, you'd have to consider the Rebel forces to be representing the Light.

I find that logic sort of faulty because Luke is the one who made the fight about Light vs Dark. And even in RoTJ, there were heavy implications that Luke wasn't solely on the Light side. His new lightsaber was green, he was dressed in black. He defeated his father the same way a Dark side force user would.

Well, regardless of what I've said, I think that my main issue with the prophecy is what exactly balance was. If both sides of the force must exist in equilibrium, how exactly was that achieved? I don't think it was.

It could be possible for Palpatine to create an imbalance just by being immensely strong. He created life and got away with blocking the Jedi's vision, something that I don't think anyone else was capable of.

How does green lightsaber indicate Light or Dark or unsure? I think any color but red is Light. But we saw how calm Luke could be, and how much he matured. Even when he could have killed his dad, he chose not to and faced death instead. I think Luke is mainly on the Light side, but he has a pressure point or trigger that could bring him to the Dark side.

I wonder if the balance is just Lucas fucking up.

 

[Momoni]

I always thought it meant finishing off the Sith as Star Wars is good vs. bad, although it didn't make sense there could be a Jedi but no Sith. I'd actually love if it was revealed that prophecy was not true or was outdated.

Not exactly. Jedi are more about control of emotion, and sith are more passion. Their values can be seen as good vs evil, but that's part of the practice. The Jedi defend people, but they do not value things like human emotion. To them, love can be as bad as fear, hence Anakins controversy with loving Padme, and Quigons controversy of being too human.

Force sensitives are easily swayed by emotion. Balance doesn't mean eradication of the sith, but balance between the two sides. Its a lot like buddhism. The Jedi reject earthly desires, and the sith fall to them, which is why they can so easily fall to impulse and darkness.

Neither side is truly correct, at least to me, but genocide is not balance, it's not good, and it's not enlightened.

 

[xi0]

It could be possible for Palpatine to create an imbalance just by being immensely strong. He created life and got away with blocking the Jedi's vision, something that I don't think anyone else was capable of.

Created life? Wasn't that something Plagueis did? And I mean, that story is sort of rendered non-canon now, no? Anakin's mother only said that she couldn't explain how she gave birth to him. Well, regardless of that, it was pretty obvious how powerful Palpatine was. But given that Yoda and Obiwan were both dead, and that Vader and Palpatine soon followed, and with only Luke (and maybe Leia I guess), that is supposed to be the implied balance, no? Just doesn't really make sense. Even Yoda said that Obiwan might have been wrong about his interpretation.

How does green lightsaber indicate Light or Dark or unsure? I think any color but red is Light. But we saw how calm Luke could be, and how much he matured. Even when he could have killed his dad, he chose not to and faced death instead. I think Luke is mainly on the Light side, but he has a pressure point or trigger that could bring him to the Dark side.

Pre/during the prequels I think there was a lot of discussion about the color of the Jedi's lightsaber beams and what they might say about who they were as Force users. Blue indicated something like a stricter adherence to order and laws, the teachings of the Jedi Council and being adept at the physicality of the Force. Green indicated something more humanist and connected to nature in general as well as the mystery of the Force itself, This sort of arose out of Quigon as a character I think. People then later looked back and noticed how when Luke set out to created his own lightsaber, the blade was green, not blue. Indicating that maybe he was more of a chaotic figure, and that's why you saw his passion take over him in his fight against his father. Of course that was spurned on by other things, but yeah. I even think at some point in the EU it was said that Green lightsaber users were about fighting the Dark Side more head-on and were thus "closer" to it or something.

I have no real idea about the consistency of this theory when it comes to the more obscure characters in the EU (non-canon disclosure, different authors, etc) and what Yellow (Plo Koon) or Purple (Mace Windu) means and the creators might not have intended anything like this at all, but I still found it interesting and fitting in some cases.

I wonder if the balance is just Lucas fucking up.

Probably the most likely answer. Or we can give him the benefit of the doubt for some reason and say it was intentional.

 

[kkck]

Created life? Wasn't that something Plagueis did? And I mean, that story is sort of rendered non-canon now, no? Anakin's mother only said that she couldn't explain how she gave birth to him. Well, regardless of that, it was pretty obvious how powerful Palpatine was. But given that Yoda and Obiwan were both dead, and that Vader and Palpatine soon followed, and with only Luke (and maybe Leia I guess), that is supposed to be the implied balance, no? Just doesn't really make sense. Even Yoda said that Obiwan might have been wrong about his interpretation.


Pre/during the prequels I think there was a lot of discussion about the color of the Jedi's lightsaber beams and what they might say about who they were as Force users. Blue indicated something like a stricter adherence to order and laws, the teachings of the Jedi Council and being adept at the physicality of the Force. Green indicated something more humanist and connected to nature in general as well as the mystery of the Force itself, This sort of arose out of Quigon as a character I think. People then later looked back and noticed how when Luke set out to created his own lightsaber, the blade was green, not blue. Indicating that maybe he was more of a chaotic figure, and that's why you saw his passion take over him in his fight against his father. Of course that was spurned on by other things, but yeah. I even think at some point in the EU it was said that Green lightsaber users were about fighting the Dark Side more head-on and were thus "closer" to it or something.

I have no real idea about the consistency of this theory when it comes to the more obscure characters in the EU (non-canon disclosure, different authors, etc) and what Yellow (Plo Koon) or Purple (Mace Windu) means and the creators might not have intended anything like this at all, but I still found it interesting and fitting in some cases.


Probably the most likely answer. Or we can give him the benefit of the doubt for some reason and say it was intentional.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Plagueis

Well, according to the wikia there is still some cannon remaining about darth plagueis. Although rather than him creating anakin directly it would seem like anaking was the result of the force striking back at the sith for becoming so powerful.

 

[xi0]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Plagueis

Well, according to the wikia there is still some cannon remaining about darth plagueis. Although rather than him creating anakin directly it would seem like anaking was the result of the force striking back at the sith for becoming so powerful.

The whole "willing" someone into existence thing is a result of the midichlorians nonsense.

So then the balance was Anakin being principally responsible for destroying the Jedi and eventually he killed Palpatine himself, leaving his son as the last one standing.

Again, where is this "balance" that the prophecy talks about? I guess I'm sort of going around in circles here...lol

 

[kkck]

The whole "willing" someone into existence thing is a result of the midichlorians nonsense.

So then the balance was Anakin being principally responsible for destroying the Jedi and eventually he killed Palpatine himself, leaving his son as the last one standing.

Again, where is this "balance" that the prophecy talks about? I guess I'm sort of going around in circles here...lol

Well, the implication is that anakin was not willed by anyone into existence but instead was created by the force itself. Unless the "will of the force" counts as willing him into existence.

I think the balance was off well before the jedi were exterminated. Wouldn't the jedi loosing their foresight be the result of the balance being shifted? I guess there really isn't enough evidence to suggest when this happened. Or what it even is...

 

[xi0]

Well, the implication is that anakin was not willed by anyone into existence but instead was created by the force itself. Unless the "will of the force" counts as willing him into existence.

I think Milly was alluding to a theory that Plagueis learned how to manipulate midichlorians, Sidious learned this from him and that Anakin was created by him. Not that it came from the Force itself. But I'm not really clear on all of the theories and everything.

 

[Momoni]

I think Milly was alluding to a theory that Plagueis learned how to manipulate midichlorians, Sidious learned this from him and that Anakin was created by him. Not that it came from the Force itself. But I'm not really clear on all of the theories and everything.

Using the force to create the baby from material.

 

[xi0]

After some reading, apparently Anakin being willed into existence was The Force's response to Plagueis and Sidious trying to manipulate midichlorians into creating "The Chosen One" (no idea bout canon though, as always now ). Adding this into the pot makes the notion of Anakin bringing balance make more sense, but I still say he failed.

 

[kkck]

After some reading, apparently Anakin being willed into existence was The Force's response to Plagueis and Sidious trying to manipulate midichlorians into creating "The Chosen One" (no idea bout canon though, as always now ). Adding this into the pot makes the notion of Anakin bringing balance make more sense, but I still say he failed.

Isn't the point made in the wiki that plaguies thought the force could retaliate at him for being too powerful? It's not that plaguies and paltatine tried to mess with midiclorians, it's the force taking issue with them being as powerful as they were. However the implication would necessarily have to be that anakin was meant to restore the balance rather than his mere presence bringing it about. Otherwise luke, as powerful as he supposedly is (according to lucas he had the same potential as anakin) would also be an unbalancing factor.

 

[xi0]

Isn't the point made in the wiki that plaguies thought the force could retaliate at him for being too powerful? It's not that plaguies and paltatine tried to mess with midiclorians, it's the force taking issue with them being as powerful as they were. However the implication would necessarily have to be that anakin was meant to restore the balance rather than his mere presence bringing it about. Otherwise luke, as powerful as he supposedly is (according to lucas he had the same potential as anakin) would also be an unbalancing factor.

Not sure we read the same thing though...rip

Well I think I sort of was getting to that with Luke being attached to Anakin in this sense. So if he's an extension of the same prophecy it doesn't really change my point. But perhaps, this will be resolved in the next two movies...

 

[JediKnightWhoSaysNi]

The movie was incredible. Just wish my man BOBA was in this new one.