Movies Star Wars - The Thread

[Arjuna]

Hope you enjoy the second viewing, and I completely agree with you, the film was enjoyable but there are were as many bad moments as there were good moments to me.

Without spoiling too much, I think there were definitely moments in there that were from ESB but it was nowhere near as bad as TFA for it. And tbf, some of those moments are more like 'parallels' to ESB rather than direct copies.

Any revelation on Rey?Feel free to spoil me.

 

[Ebony Maw]

Any revelation on Rey?Feel free to spoil me.

You sure you want to spoil yourself?

Spoiler: MASSIVE spoilers regarding Rey

In the film she ends up going to a cave on Acht-To and she has a vision where there are multiple copies of herself in a line, with her being at the front and looking at a wall. When she thinks about what she wants to know the most (who her parents are and why they left her on Jakuu), the wall starts to become more translucent and while it looks like two figures are coming towards her, only one does: and its Rey herself. Later on in a conversation with Kylo, he tells her that she knows who her parents are and that she just doesn't want to believe it: he tells her that they were just random junkers who sold her to get money for drugs and alcohol.

I'm not sure how much I trust this though, force visions have always been vague and if we hearken back to ESB Luke saw himself behind Darth Vader's in the cave on Dagobah. Honestly it might even just be a metaphor, seeing as how Rey basically raised herself it would make sense for her to subconsciously view herself as her own parent. Add on to this that Kylo was almost certainly trying to manipulate her and I call BS. I don't think it would even make sense for her to just be a random child either since she's already shown such fast growth in the Force that it would be crazy for her to not be a direct descendant of a powerful Force user.

 

[Arjuna]

You sure you want to spoil yourself?

Spoiler: MASSIVE spoilers regarding Rey

In the film she ends up going to a cave on Acht-To and she has a vision where there are multiple copies of herself in a line, with her being at the front and looking at a wall. When she thinks about what she wants to know the most (who her parents are and why they left her on Jakuu), the wall starts to become more translucent and while it looks like two figures are coming towards her, only one does: and its Rey herself. Later on in a conversation with Kylo, he tells her that she knows who her parents are and that she just doesn't want to believe it: he tells her that they were just random junkers who sold her to get money for drugs and alcohol.

I'm not sure how much I trust this though, force visions have always been vague and if we hearken back to ESB Luke saw himself behind Darth Vader's in the cave on Dagobah. Honestly it might even just be a metaphor, seeing as how Rey basically raised herself it would make sense for her to subconsciously view herself as her own parent. Add on to this that Kylo was almost certainly trying to manipulate her and I call BS. I don't think it would even make sense for her to just be a random child either since she's already shown such fast growth in the Force that it would be crazy for her to not be a direct descendant of a powerful Force user.

It becomes more complex.Honestly I had hoped we will

Spoiler

see her parents.

 

[upsurge]

Okay. I was discussing my issues with this film with Spitfire-kun over on SD. Here they are.

Arjuna, I advise you to avoid this till you've seen the movie. I'm putting it in spoilers.

Spoiler

My thoughts on The Last Jedi:

The good:
1. Lots of nice action and battles. Starts off with a bang.
2. Nice bits of humour here and there. The Hux "on hold" call scene was especially hilarious.
3. Nice development for Kylo Ren with proper motivations for turning against Luke and the Republic.
4. Not going to lie: The manner in which Ben cut up Snoke and the proceeding fight were all quite epic.
5. Various little things from lore.
6. I quite liked the ending with that little Force sensitive boy. Just goes to show you that the Jedi & Sith may mostly be gone but the Force is ever present and Force sensitives are going to be born non-stop.

The bad:
1. So... Rey just gets as powerful as Kylo Ren does in the Dark Side? Okay... But this is only going to lead to more sexist assholes complaining about her being a real Mary Sue. Now I'm not one of them but I must ask: Why give those assholes more ammo to shoot their mouths off with?
2. That Mandator IV-class dreadnought was crippled way too easily. The resistance may have lost all of its bombers and most of its T-70 X-wings but that was still way too easy. Those things can take on entire fleets in weeks-long engagements and reduce an entire planet's surface to molten slag in just a few hours. And a squadron of slow-ass bombers backed up by a small collection of light strike fighters just takes one down in a minute or two? And that Mandator's point defence cannons were just pathetically useless.
3. The First Order Navy deciding to pull back its TIE/sf fighters and just chasing the Raddus for 18 hours... What the hell was up with that? If they hadn't pulled back their Special Forces TIEs and just let them pummel the Raddus with concussion missiles, the ship could have been crippled and taken out easily with the main fleet's heavy turbolasers. What kind of ass-pull strategy is that?
4. Snoke better have used something like Transfer Essence to get into a new body so he can come back for some revenge. Or there better be a bigger bad behind him. All the hype around him and they just off him in one film? What? The guy was hyped up as this masterful Force wielder and genius manipulator and he gets off'ed due to his own arrogance like some fodder Sith acolyte.
5. Luke... Look, I have no issue with Luke recognizing the hypocrisy and hubris of the Jedi Order and wanting to run off somewhere. In fact, I welcome it. I also have no issues with the whole self-exiled hermit act. But I did not like how his character was handled. And no, my problem is not with his death. It's with how he just instinctively drew his lightsaber and almost killed a defenseless boy in his sleep. Really? Really? The man who redeemed one of the most infamous mass murderer's in galactic history and who recognized the flaws of the past Jedi Order could not control himself and bring himself to help his own beloved nephew? Are you fucking kidding me? That is not the Luke that we see in Return of the Jedi and Battlefront II. Who the hell is that?

 

[Spirit]

I enjoyed this a lot more than I thought I would.

Spoiler

My favourite part of the movie might have been the Vice Admirals last ditch effort where she warped into Hux's ship. That. Was epic. Rey's training with Luke was great. Funny at times. Especially the part where she was sensing the force and almost got snared by the Dark Side. The whole last stand of the Resistance was amazing too.

There were also several points I didn't like however. Like how Luke didn't die fighting Ren like Obi Wan did with Vader. If you're going to use so many parallels to the orginal trilogy then just do it properly dammit.

But oh boy. My biggest gripe was the fact that the only character who's actor is actually dead survived. And in such a bs way too. How did Leia survive that? That's not how physics work. She couldn't have been sucked back in like that. It's also not how the god damn force works >

Overall though, a solid movie.

 

[upsurge]

Spoiler

But oh boy. My biggest gripe was the fact that the only character who's actor is actually dead survived. And in such a bs way too. How did Leia survive that? That's not how physics work. She couldn't have been sucked back in like that. It's also not how the god damn force works >

Spoiler

I agree that they should have killed off Leia. But I would like to point out that Force users have used the Force to manoeuvrer themselves from space into a spaceship or space station twice in canon. Vader did it once in Lords of the Sith and Kanan did once in Rebels. I think Luke may have also done so at one point but I cannot remember in which novel.

 

[Spirit]

Spoiler

I agree that they should have killed off Leia. But I would like to point out that Force users have used the Force to manoeuvrer themselves from space into a spaceship or space station twice in canon. Vader did it once in Lords of the Sith and Kanan did once in Rebels. I think Luke may have also done so at one point but I cannot remember in which novel.

Spoiler

That may be true. But Disney got around to declaring the novels non canon in terms of the new trilogy. So that still stinks of bs. My only major gripe with the film aside from the Snoke plotline coming from and going nowhere.

 

[upsurge]

Spoiler

That may be true. But Disney got around to declaring the novels non canon in terms of the new trilogy. So that still stinks of bs. My only major gripe with the film aside from the Snoke plotline coming from and going nowhere.

What...? The novels I was talking about are canon. Any Star Wars novel, comic, game, etc. released May 2014 onward is canon.

And yeah, I agree on Snoke. Disappointed.

 

[Ebony Maw]

I'm going to see it again but these were my firsthand impressions:

Spoiler: The good

- Fantastic performances from the whole cast, in particular I felt Mark Hamill, Laura Dern, Adam Driver, Daisy Ridley and John Boyega really nailed it. Andy Serkis also deserves to be mentioned, just wish he'd got more screentime.
- The audio and visuals were great, especially the scene of Holdo splitting the Supremacy in half, the silence follow up by the explosion was borderline orgasmic. Not quite AOTC seismic bomb levels though. :P
- While there were definitely moments that were taken from ESB, none of it felt too egregious (bar one event). The story felt pretty fresh compared to TFA.
- The twist of Snoke manipulating Rey and Kylo via the Force Bond was brilliant, it was a good demonstration of his sheer power and intelligence.
- Rey and Kylo vs Snoke's Praetorian Guards was cool AF, the weapon variation made the fight more dynamic.
- The reunion between Leia and Luke was short but incredibly sweet. Makes me sad to think that we didn't get one scene with the original three though.
- Porgs were actually pretty cute, I thought I was going to hate them but they aren't too bad, though I personally would have removed them from one or two scenes.

Spoiler: The bad

- Leia surviving. I love Carrie Fisher but I don't get why they kept Leia alive, Holdo could have easily taken her role as the Resistance Leader, Even if they wanted Leia to survive being blown into space why not have her stay behind and ram the Raddus into Snoke's ship? Either of those scenes would have been a fitting end to Leia's life.
- Luke's character arc and death. Are we seriously supposed to buy that the guy who ignored Yoda and Obi-Wan, and redeemed Darth "I massacred Younglings" Vader, was considering killing Kylo? They really wasted Luke IMO, this was the guy that realized the mistakes of the old Jedi Order and beat Darth Vader, having him die in TLJ without showing his real power sucks. Especially since Mark Hamill did such an amazing job. I had heard rumours that Hamill didn't like what TLJ did with Luke and I certainly wouldn't be surprised if that was true.
- This is more of a personal nitpick, but shouldn't he have been curious as to how Rey got Anakin's old lightsaber? The last time he saw it was when he was facing Vader in Cloud City, surely he would want to know how it ended up in Rey's hands? Even ignoring that, why throw it away? Its seemingly the only possession he has of his father's, so won't it have had some sentimental value? IDK, I'm probably being really petty here but with the way TFA ended it looked like the lightsaber was going to mean something, him just throwing it away like it was nothing just felt really out of place to me.
- Wasn't a fan of Luke and Yoda destroying the tree and the ancient Jedi tomes. Even if "they weren't page turners", the sheer amount of knowledge in them would be crazy. Even if Yoda is right and Rey already knows what to do, why not keep them as historical reminders? They may not be good guides in terms of how to create a new order, but they might be great at showing what not to do.
- Poe crippling the new Dreadnaught... Just why?
- I don't really know why they bothered introducing the new AT-AT's, they didn't really seem to do anything IIRC, they just look bigger and have more firepower. I think it would have made more sense for a coordinated barrage of Gorilla AT-AT fire to bring the door down rather than introducing the battering ram cannon.
- I don't think the film placed enough importance on our favourite Mon Calamari dying. RIP Admiral Gial Ackbar.
- No one said "I have a bad feeling about this" IIRC. Even Rogue One included this so why end the tradition?
- Snoke. Genuinely can't believe how they've handled Snoke. If this is seriously the end for him I'm pissed. The movie pulled such a good twist with him manipulating both Kylo and Rey and made him feel incredibly menacing, and this is how they deal with him? Andy Serkis was giving such a good performance too. We didn't even get any information about who/what he is or how he came to lead the First Order or turn Kylo. TLJ basically revealed nothing more about him except that he's Force Sensitive, very powerful and seriously cunning. Wow. Like @upsurge said, I'm really hoping he managed to use Essence Transfer or something similar to that or this is just another Darth Maul situation. Especially since Serkis hyped him as being more powerful than Darth Vader and the Emperor.
- Speaking of wastes, Captain Phasma. Why get an actress like Gwendoline Christie just to waste her again?
- I'm not a big fan of Rey being able to use telekinesis on such a level as on Crait considering she only had 3 lessons from Luke and the whole film was over the space of, what, 2 days? I get that some Force users are stronger and learn faster than others, but I doubt ESB Luke could do that in such a short amount of time, and he was the son of the Chosen One.

Spoiler: Stuff I'm 50/50 on

- The humour. While there were some jokes that worked really well, other jokes just made me eye roll. For example, I'll take two instances of Hux. Towards the end of the battle on Crait he makes a jab at Kylo for solely focusing on Luke and it actually made me chuckle because it was funny but also served as a reminder that Hux is fully aware of how inefficient Kylo is being. On the flip side I found Poe tricking Hux at the start really meh. I actually liked it at first but it just went on for so long it made Hux look stupid.
- The language wasn't really Star Warsy in some places, though the place I really noticed it was Finn calling someone a bastard. I'm 50/50 on this because while it sounded good it could have been replaced with something more along the lines of "nerf herder". This is something TFA also did though so I suppose this might just be the norm now.
- Finn and Rose's story. I loved watching these two interact (Rose is easily among my favourite Star Wars characters, as is Finn) but it just felt like such a weird deviation from the main plot considering their story didn't really end up contributing to the Resistance's victory. That said, I'm intrigued to see if Finn and Rose end up meeting/pursuing DJ which could be an interesting plotline for episode IX.
- Rey's parentage. If this movie is actually telling the truth about Rey's parents being random spacers then I'm disappointed but impressed that they went with such a ballsy option. Personally, I think its a major misdirect as Force Visions are always vague and Kylo was clearly trying to manipulate her, but we'll obviously have to wait until episode IX comes out to see what's what.
- "The light rises to meet the dark" - Sooooooo.... are they trying to retcon midichlorians by saying your power will simply increase to meet the Light Side's demand or is this saying that the Force will create a powerful Lightsider in response to a powerful Darksider?
- The last shot of the boy with the broom should have been placed before the scene on the Falcon and the scene with Luke ascending on Acht-To. Personally I think it should have gone: boy with broom > scene on the Falcon > Luke ascending > credits. The reason for this is that Luke Skywalker is the hero that started Star Wars and it would have paralleled well with both A New Hope and Revenge of the Sith. In ANH there's the obvious iconic shot of Luke looking at the twin suns on Tatooine, and Revenge of the Sith ends with Owen and Beru looking at the twin suns with Luke in their arms. The end of TLJ would have been perfect to me had it ended with its first hero ascending as he stares at two suns setting, reminding him of when his adventure started as it ended.

This probably paints the picture that I hated TLJ but I still think its a good film, it just didn't live up to my hopes/standards for a Star Wars film.

 

[Lawl Po Bia]

what a major waste of 3 hours jfc. snoke was so dissapointed, he better not be dead though

 

[BluePegasus]

This has a Metacritic score of 86! I’m impressed. Now I just need to find someone to watch Star Wars with

 

[kkck]

Spoiler: ALL OF THE SPOILERS

Ok, I finally had the chance to watch the movie.

Overall, I would argue it was a very good star wars movie. And more importantly, the movie was on all accounts a much needed improvement over the last movie. The last movie relied too much of nostalgia and whatnot, this one does a much better job standing on its own and has some excellent, although perhaps predictable, twists. On the other hand the movie also has a fatal flaw in regards to blue balls. As in, it leaves you with so much blue balls in regards to stuff you want to see happening. And perhaps its greatest flaw, not only it makes clear that certain stuff you want to see happening will not happen but also it mocks you about how you will never see them happening. EVER. There is a planet worth of salt for you to rub in that.

The good:
Everything mark hammil. Luke was on all accounts awesome. I was kinda worried that they would make luke evil in this film and I maintain that I would have never forgave the film if it did that. However they didn't and the result was awesome. We got a faithless luke that had given up the jedi and a slow transition of him forgiving himself and finally finding the light.

That first scene with luke getting the lightsaber from rey and throwing it like if it was garbage was weirdly glorious. It perfectly sets the tone for what luke had become.

Kylo ren and snoke was a fairly good scene. Snoke telling off kylo over how rey bested him was glorious. It's almost what every star wars fan would have told him. However we also got some much needed context regarding how that happened. We learn that the defeat was also at least partly because killing Han also broke ben, spiritually. it haunted him and weakened him. So the full context of the fight was that indeed rey bested him the first time she picked up a lightsaber however ben had a blaster hole and a broken spirit going against him. It ALMOST makes sense that rey won once you factor in her astonishing force talent.

Another strong point: Leia surviving using the force. it was a shame that we barely ever saw leia using the force so this was welcomed. It doesn't quite make up for her off handedly making the point that she never cared to learn it in the first movie but close enough at least. I wouldn't have minded if she picked up a lightsaber though.

Rey's training. I enjoyed the training. It wasn't what I was hoping for TBH. When luke offered to train her I figured she'd get taught why luke was so bitter with some standard jedi training in between. Instead we got less jedi training and more (awesome) bitter luke. But still, it works. The first bit with her learning the force's true nature and seeing her get sucked to the dark side was amazing. Not much to comment on there though. it just sets up the scene with the island's place where the dark side is strongest. The second bit of training is one of the movie's best moments considering it leads to rey seeing how luke failed. This leads to us seeing the night luke went to confront ben and what was going on in luke's and ben's minds. We ben waking up to luke, lightsaber in hand. And we learn that that was luke's one instant of weakness. I guess the intention is to make you wonder what would have happened had kylo woken up moments later or not at all.

Oh, and regarding the second bit of training the explanation luke gives about the jedi being incompetent and full of hubris was great. It's something the movies very much needed. Not only because it is absolutely true but also because most of the non movie star wars media makes this point in a number of ways and yet the movies never acknowledge it.

Another glorious moment, yoda appearing. And with the original trilogy appearance. I liked this scene because it packs quite a bit into it which makes it more than merely yoda fan service. Earlier luke had made the point that it was hubris to think the jedi falling means the light falls. Life and the force would go on with or without the jedi. However while luke had acquired that bit of knowledge, he seems to also have missed his own point. He goes on to burn the jedi relics at the island... only for yoda to do it for him with a massive burst of lightning. FUCK. YES. Yoda makes the point that luke had to pass on what he learned... but that includes everything including his failure. The masters burden. But to me what was perhaps more important there was that had wanted to finish everything by destroying the relics.... Even though as he said things would go on with or without him. However that doesn't mean he should give up or not fight.

As for how the kylo and ren thing played out, I like the direction things took. It seems like they intended to make kylo and ren into sort of.... Well, kylo is what a "successful" vader is supposed to be meanwhile rey is what a successful anakin would have been. Kylo is a succesful "vader" because he got what vader never could: He killed his master and took over. Rey is a succesful anakin because she rejected the dark side and saved the people she cared about.

The bad:

Snoke. No closure whatever regarding snoke. He left us as arbitrarily as he came to us. You'd think a powerful force user like him would be defeated in a force contest. Instead he gets cheap shoted by kylo while kylo is right in front of him. And this is after we see snoke basically toy with rey and ben using the force.

And perhaps the biggest plot hole... I can see why ben would have a fascination with vader. But why would snoke have it? Vader wasn't a success, he was a failure. He failed as a jedi, he failed as a sith and his one redeeming act was to throw palpanite of a ledge. Who the hell is snoke and why would he idolize vader and not palpatine, a true lord of the sith that fulfilled a thousand year old battle?

Another blue ball moment... Luke standing up to the first order army. Don't get me wrong, everything about the scene looked awesome. And the buildup was awesome. We were about to witness fucking LUKE SKYWALKER, a man who by any regard is the single strongest jedi in the galaxy's history take on an army. The moment where he takes all the fire the first order could muster and luke was like "meh" was glorious. And then...... PFFFFFTTTTT PSYCHED, it's an illusion, luke is not even on the planet. Now, that is not in itself what I fault in this though. Everything about this was badass in its own way. The way luke could make an army stop in its tracks without even being there... It's perfect, its everything the legend of luke fucking skywalker should be. However there is a flaw, luke dies. So... we never get to see a skywalker at the height of his might and potential go all out. All we saw is a tease, a distraction. And then luke dies. Meaning that we will never get to see luke fucking skywalker go all out. Unless disney makes a tv show based on luke after the jedi return but that is another discussion entirely. The way I see if if luke had to die then they should have had him BE THERE and go all out against the first order. If he wasn't there then he should have survived and actually complete his mission, to pass on what he had learned. OF WHICH THE MOVIE MADE A BIG DEAL EARLIER FUCK YOU MOVIE. I am guessing luke will have the chance to teach rey as a force ghost however that is still a letdown. Would it have been so terrible to have luke survive and at least get yodaed early in the next movie? Sure, that is what most people would expect but what the movie gave was wasn't better, it was just blue balls.

Also bad, BB8-ex-machina. BB8 of course is fun and whatnot but in this movie he just appeared pretty much out of nowhere and arbitrarily saved the day. bb8 is not a character you can enjoy if you think about him in this movie because he solves the plot without you seeing how he does it. I mean, he randomly pilots a walker when the plot requires it... AND steals a ship with some asshole he didn't know. All off screen. The movie can't have it both ways, either BB8 is awesome and we see how shit happens or he is just a robot that does what he is told (awesomely) and not a thing more.

Another bad thing.... rey's acting. She isn't really showing many emotions in the movie. There is the cave scene which is nice but the scene works because the visuals are pretty damn cool enough to cover for how many facial expressions rey doesn't have in a scene where there are infinite reys. That scene with a more competent actress could have been so much more....

Also, rey gets some very cool lightsaber scenes however I take issue with the simple fact that by the time she gets her cool fight scene it is basically the third time she picked up a lightsaber. So the first time she picked up a lightsaber she bested kylo, the second one she was a dick to some nuns and almost killed them and the third time she defeated a squad of fully trained force users. This is why there should have been some actual jedi training for rey in this movie, this time she wasn't fighting physically and spiritually maimed assholes. Rey was just insanely good at lightsabering because it was convenient to the plot.


Anyways, those are my thoughts. Overall a solid movie with great movies but also has some important flaws. Still, an improvement over the force awakens, the good easily outweighs the bad.

 

[Ebony Maw]

Welp, just got back from seeing TLJ again. Still really mixed but its on the lower end of Star Wars to me. I noticed a few nice details but overall I noticed way more small flaws.

Spoiler: Good

- Watching Hamill this time was even better. Aside from Ewan as Obi-Wan in ROTS, he might actually have given the best performance in a Star Wars movie IMO. Fisher, Driver. Boyega, Dern and Serkis were absolutely on point too, though I didn't enjoy Daisy Ridley as much this time (though tbf that's probably because I didn't really like Rey as much in this re-watch).
- Kelly Marie Tran and Benicio Del Toro were great additions to the cast, looking forward to seeing how their stories will progress. Likewise Dern was a great addition too, sad that they killed her off.
- The lightsaber choreography was on point, especially in Snoke's throne room.
- Missed this on my first viewing, Rey actually took the ancient Jedi tomes with her before Luke/Yoda burned the tree (my inner Master Jocasta can rest).
- Snoke wrecking Hux at the start, and going on to roast Kylo.
- The visuals of Canto Bight, it felt incredibly different to a lot of other Star Wars planets, in particular I loved the brightness in the casino.
- The weird little temple caretakers on Acht-To, they didn't do much however it was a small but sweet example of world-building.
- Great acting by the Mandator's Admiral at the start, it reminded me of the OG Empire officers.
- Crystal foxes. That is all.
- Nien Nunb. Didn't catch that he was in TLJ at first, glad to see that he's still alive, even if he is a background character.

Spoiler: Bad (some of these are really petty)

I'll start off with my MAJOR complaints, the first of which is actually a problem with the Sequels as a whole IMO:

1) Where the hell are the Saga aliens? Twi'leks? Rodians? Hutts? Aqualish? They can put in as many new aliens as they like in the background but it feels seriously wrong when you watch the previous six films seeing all of these alien in the background only to watch the new trilogy which contains hardly any of them. To their credit they did include a Sullustan but that was a named character from the OT. Also, the new aliens vary from 'cool' to 'WTF is that'? When Rose and Finn first enter the casino on Canto Bight there's a couple of aliens that literally just look like they have plastic masks on. Give the Prequels all the shit you want but the aliens they introduced looked unique and yet still in line with the Star Wars universe, some of the aliens in this trilogy though... Also, the fact that there weren't any Hutts or Twi'leks in a casino, so much wrong. Not sure if I'm being petty here but it just doesn't feel like its in the same universe as the previous movies.

2) Leia should have died and Holdo should have replaced her. While they can CGI Leia in episode IX (the Tarkin CGI in Rogue One proves they can handle it), I just don't see why they didn't kill her in this movie, especially considering Carrie Fisher has passed away. They even had two great opportunities to kill her off, the first which would have developed Kylo (as he could have viewed that as the Force telling him to kill the past), and the second which would have been incredibly fitting for Leia, sacrificing herself so that her allies can fight on. This way Holdo could replace her role as the Resistance leader and we could see more from Laura Dern, and possibly even develop the relationship between Poe and Holdo.

3) Said it before but I feel this can't be said enough, they destroyed Luke's character. The guy who almost died for and redeemed Darth Vader was going to kill his own nephew in his sleep just because he thought he could turn to the Dark Side? The fuck. I don't even buy the excuse of "I went there to confront him and got overwhelmed by fear for a brief moment", I could get it if he had simply raised his deactivated lightsaber and Ben turned around and attacked him out of fear, but the second he turned on that lightsaber the movie is telling us that Luke sodding Skywalker considered killing his own flesh and blood because he thought he'd turn in the future. What was it that Yoda said to him in ESB? The future is always unclear? TLJ Luke regressed so badly...

As for the rest:

- Rey's training was way too short for my tastes, especially considering how proficient she is at dueling and how powerful she is with telekinesis now, even Luke required weeks/months of training on Dagobah to become as powerful as he was by the end of ESB.
- Finn is completely fine after taking a lightsaber to the spine? Wut? I know the medical tech is crazy in Star Wars but being completely OK after taking a lightsaber to the spine, only after a couple of days?
- BB8 is freaking ridiculous. I know astromech droids have always been somewhat useful in combat + utility (for example, R2 vs super battle droids), but BB8 pulls off some crazy shit. In particular BB8 driving an AT-ST, and BB8 somehow subduing 3 armed guards off-screen.
- Too many Porg moments. Didn't notice it the first time around but the Porgs really grated on me later on in the film, especially when Chewie was flying the Falcon. The scene felt amazing until the damned Porg started screaming and stealing screen time. Either make the scene badass or make it funny, don't try both.
- Why did Kylo and the TIE fighters have to pull back? I know Hux said he couldn't cover them, but from what? From what we saw Kylo and the TIE's were literally tearing them apart, having blown up a whole hanger and wiped out the main bridge. And if Poe can cripple an entire dreadnaught by himself I see no reason why a Force Sensitive prodigy can't, especially considering the Raddus has less point defense turrets than the Mandator.
- The Supremacy's turbolasers arced. Don't know if I'm remembering this wrong, but I can't remember any time a turbolaser has arced before.
- The Supremacy has a lack of turbolasers. Not sure if I'm just being nitpicky here, but the lack of turbolasers drives me crazy. A 60KM wide ship only has a couple of guns? Really? The Executor-class had 4000+ turbolasers and ion cannons, missile tubes, tractor beams and point defense turrets, and that was 1/3 of the size of a Mega-class. I get that it can apparently store Resurgent-class destroyers in it but the lack of guns is just sad. Especially since the few cannons it had don't even seem that powerful. The fact that we didn't get to see any Resurgent-class destroyers docked inside it was a wasted opportunity, it would have been epic for the Resistance to think things can't get worse, only for two Resurgent-classes to enter the fray.
- Likewise, the Raddus was pretty underwhelming and underused. This is the best ship the Resistance had and we didn't even get to see it fire any of its turbolasers, ion cannons or point defense turrets. Even if the point defense turrets wouldn't give Kylo and the other TIE fighters any problems they should have at least opened fire on them.
- I put this in my original list but the way Poe and the bombers took down the Mandator just annoys me. One X-Wing cripples an entire dreadnaught? It wasn't even flown by a Force Sensitive...
- The bombers themselves were something that annoyed me too, the design is just so bad. If a single hit to them causes a chain reaction of such major magnitude, why in the world would you group them so close together? They were just asking for something to go wrong.
- When Luke projects himself onto Crait, why did he choose to use Anakin's lightsaber? While he couldn't have known that Rey and Kylo had destroyed it, wouldn't it add to the psychological warfare aspect to use his green one? Plus it would be a nice thematic nod IMO, Luke returning to save them with his green lightsaber would be a nice metaphor for Jedi Master Luke Skywalker returning to the fight in spite of the heavy odds, just like how he faced Vader and Sidious against all odds.
- I get Kylo was angry and all, but shouldn't he have realized or at least have been suspicious that Luke wasn't actually on Crait because he had the lightsaber him and Rey had destroyed around, what, an hour before? (This is probably my pettiest complaint)
- Wasn't a fan of the slow motion shot in Kylo vs Luke, just felt needless and took away from the moment.
- I would have prefered either Admiral Ackbar or Leia dying in the hyperspace suicide instead of Holdo. Ackbar because I felt his death was done far too casually, he was one of the Rebellion's old guard and deserved better than a simple one-line mention. As for Leia, as I mentioned above I just don't like the idea of Leia being in episode IX when Carrie Fisher has already passed away.
- If Luke ran away to Acht-To to die then why did he create a map to lead to him?
- Snoke dying. Unless he's managed to pull off an Essence Transfer or something of that ilk then they've wasted some huge potential. The same goes for Luke IMO, no idea why they decided to kill both of them off.
- The reason Luke's lightsaber called to Rey. While this could be solved in episode IX, I feel this should have been explained here. If the lightsaber meant nothing to Luke and it was destroyed in this why create the tangent of the lightsaber calling to her in the first place?

Spoiler: 50/50

- "Darkness rises... and light to meet it": What do you guys think this means? I keep running ideas through my head but I can't settle on anything that works well.
- DJ. I liked Del Toro's performance but the character himself only felt like he was there to provide yet another morally ambiguous aspect into the story. I like moral ambiguity but this movie didn't really need it, especially considering what they did to Luke. Plus, considering all of the crazy shit BB8 can do, why did they even need a slicer/code breaker? We've seen R2 hack lots of doors in both the PT and OT, surely a superior model like BB8 can open a door?
- Rey's parents. If the film isn't lying to us, I'm not a fan. Originally I was actually hoping that Rey would be a nobody that an alive Luke would train and build a new Jedi Order with. But that obviously can't happen now. The reason I'm not a fan is twofold. The first reason is that the Saga movies have always been about the Skywalkers, with a Skywalker serving as the main character (Luke in the OT, Anakin in the PT). The other reason is her sheer strength in the Force and how quickly she learns. For a nobody, she is way too strong considering the amount of training she has had. At least IMO. And honestly I find it sad because while I don't think Rey is a Mary Sue it gives those who think otherwise more ammunition. This being said, I don't buy her parents being nobodies. Force Visions have always been cryptic and Kylo had no reason to tell her the truth on Snoke's ship considering he was trying to get her to join him.
- Rey's Force Alignment. OK, this might seem like a weird thing to pick on but hear me out. The very first time Rey reaches out into the Force on Acht-To, she goes into the Dark Side cave, with Luke stating that she didn't even try and resist. Then she gradually begins to talk with Kylo more and more and starts to sympathise with him, to the extent that she attacks Luke when he won't tell her what happened between him and Kylo. And when they team up to fight Snoke's Praetorian guard she seems to be a really aggressive fighter, snarling and making angry expressions (funnily enough Kylo seemed much more Jedi-like than her). Yet despite all of this, she easily refuses Kylo's offer to join him. I know Snoke said that she had the spirit of a true Jedi, but this was just too... IDK, perfect(?) to me. Really hoping this comes up in episode IX.
- Luke's reaction when Rey tells him they arrived via the Falcon. The actual reaction was fantastic, but I would have loved to have seen more, Han was his brother-in-law after all and they were incredibly close, I'm sure Mark Hamill would have given one hell of a scene had it not been cut off.
- Luke's shoulder brush. Really minor thing, I get why he did it and it made me chuckle again but I think the moment would have been far better had Luke just stood there stoically.
- Some of the criticisms Luke leveled at the PT Jedi Order seemed kinda harsh IMO. In particular the criticism that they let Darth Sidious rise into power. While that is true, it took the Rule of Two Sith 1000 years and even then the PT Jedi almost stopped him. And that was with Palapatine putting them in an impossible situation (the Clone Wars). The criticism of how they created Vader was fair enough though.
- I've got some hope that Luke actually used Fold Space rather than ascending to the Force.
- I'm not really sure how J.J Abrams can continue some storylines, while I mostly liked TLJ it really seemed to throw a lot of what TFA teased out of the window. Rey's parents? No one. Snoke? Dead, doesn't matter. Why did Luke go to Acht-To? He was a failure, now he's dead.

If this gave the impression that I hated TLJ then my bad, I'm just better at pointing out and explaining negatives rather than positives. I still think TLJ is a big improvement over TFA, though I think Rogue One is still my favourite movie out of the post-Disney movies.

 

[kkck]

Welp, just got back from seeing TLJ again. Still really mixed but its on the lower end of Star Wars to me. I noticed a few nice details but overall I noticed way more small flaws.

Spoiler: Good

- Watching Hamill this time was even better. Aside from Ewan as Obi-Wan in ROTS, he might actually have given the best performance in a Star Wars movie IMO. Fisher, Driver. Boyega, Dern and Serkis were absolutely on point too, though I didn't enjoy Daisy Ridley as much this time (though tbf that's probably because I didn't really like Rey as much in this re-watch).
- Kelly Marie Tran and Benicio Del Toro were great additions to the cast, looking forward to seeing how their stories will progress. Likewise Dern was a great addition too, sad that they killed her off.
- The lightsaber choreography was on point, especially in Snoke's throne room.
- Missed this on my first viewing, Rey actually took the ancient Jedi tomes with her before Luke/Yoda burned the tree (my inner Master Jocasta can rest).
- Snoke wrecking Hux at the start, and going on to roast Kylo.
- The visuals of Canto Bight, it felt incredibly different to a lot of other Star Wars planets, in particular I loved the brightness in the casino.
- The weird little temple caretakers on Acht-To, they didn't do much however it was a small but sweet example of world-building.
- Great acting by the Mandator's Admiral at the start, it reminded me of the OG Empire officers.
- Crystal foxes. That is all.
- Nien Nunb. Didn't catch that he was in TLJ at first, glad to see that he's still alive, even if he is a background character.

Spoiler: Bad (some of these are really petty)

I'll start off with my MAJOR complaints, the first of which is actually a problem with the Sequels as a whole IMO:

1) Where the hell are the Saga aliens? Twi'leks? Rodians? Hutts? Aqualish? They can put in as many new aliens as they like in the background but it feels seriously wrong when you watch the previous six films seeing all of these alien in the background only to watch the new trilogy which contains hardly any of them. To their credit they did include a Sullustan but that was a named character from the OT. Also, the new aliens vary from 'cool' to 'WTF is that'? When Rose and Finn first enter the casino on Canto Bight there's a couple of aliens that literally just look like they have plastic masks on. Give the Prequels all the shit you want but the aliens they introduced looked unique and yet still in line with the Star Wars universe, some of the aliens in this trilogy though... Also, the fact that there weren't any Hutts or Twi'leks in a casino, so much wrong. Not sure if I'm being petty here but it just doesn't feel like its in the same universe as the previous movies.

2) Leia should have died and Holdo should have replaced her. While they can CGI Leia in episode IX (the Tarkin CGI in Rogue One proves they can handle it), I just don't see why they didn't kill her in this movie, especially considering Carrie Fisher has passed away. They even had two great opportunities to kill her off, the first which would have developed Kylo (as he could have viewed that as the Force telling him to kill the past), and the second which would have been incredibly fitting for Leia, sacrificing herself so that her allies can fight on. This way Holdo could replace her role as the Resistance leader and we could see more from Laura Dern, and possibly even develop the relationship between Poe and Holdo.

3) Said it before but I feel this can't be said enough, they destroyed Luke's character. The guy who almost died for and redeemed Darth Vader was going to kill his own nephew in his sleep just because he thought he could turn to the Dark Side? The fuck. I don't even buy the excuse of "I went there to confront him and got overwhelmed by fear for a brief moment", I could get it if he had simply raised his deactivated lightsaber and Ben turned around and attacked him out of fear, but the second he turned on that lightsaber the movie is telling us that Luke sodding Skywalker considered killing his own flesh and blood because he thought he'd turn in the future. What was it that Yoda said to him in ESB? The future is always unclear? TLJ Luke regressed so badly...

As for the rest:

- Rey's training was way too short for my tastes, especially considering how proficient she is at dueling and how powerful she is with telekinesis now, even Luke required weeks/months of training on Dagobah to become as powerful as he was by the end of ESB.
- Finn is completely fine after taking a lightsaber to the spine? Wut? I know the medical tech is crazy in Star Wars but being completely OK after taking a lightsaber to the spine, only after a couple of days?
- BB8 is freaking ridiculous. I know astromech droids have always been somewhat useful in combat + utility (for example, R2 vs super battle droids), but BB8 pulls off some crazy shit. In particular BB8 driving an AT-ST, and BB8 somehow subduing 3 armed guards off-screen.
- Too many Porg moments. Didn't notice it the first time around but the Porgs really grated on me later on in the film, especially when Chewie was flying the Falcon. The scene felt amazing until the damned Porg started screaming and stealing screen time. Either make the scene badass or make it funny, don't try both.
- Why did Kylo and the TIE fighters have to pull back? I know Hux said he couldn't cover them, but from what? From what we saw Kylo and the TIE's were literally tearing them apart, having blown up a whole hanger and wiped out the main bridge. And if Poe can cripple an entire dreadnaught by himself I see no reason why a Force Sensitive prodigy can't, especially considering the Raddus has less point defense turrets than the Mandator.
- The Supremacy's turbolasers arced. Don't know if I'm remembering this wrong, but I can't remember any time a turbolaser has arced before.
- The Supremacy has a lack of turbolasers. Not sure if I'm just being nitpicky here, but the lack of turbolasers drives me crazy. A 60KM wide ship only has a couple of guns? Really? The Executor-class had 4000+ turbolasers and ion cannons, missile tubes, tractor beams and point defense turrets, and that was 1/3 of the size of a Mega-class. I get that it can apparently store Resurgent-class destroyers in it but the lack of guns is just sad. Especially since the few cannons it had don't even seem that powerful. The fact that we didn't get to see any Resurgent-class destroyers docked inside it was a wasted opportunity, it would have been epic for the Resistance to think things can't get worse, only for two Resurgent-classes to enter the fray.
- Likewise, the Raddus was pretty underwhelming and underused. This is the best ship the Resistance had and we didn't even get to see it fire any of its turbolasers, ion cannons or point defense turrets. Even if the point defense turrets wouldn't give Kylo and the other TIE fighters any problems they should have at least opened fire on them.
- I put this in my original list but the way Poe and the bombers took down the Mandator just annoys me. One X-Wing cripples an entire dreadnaught? It wasn't even flown by a Force Sensitive...
- The bombers themselves were something that annoyed me too, the design is just so bad. If a single hit to them causes a chain reaction of such major magnitude, why in the world would you group them so close together? They were just asking for something to go wrong.
- When Luke projects himself onto Crait, why did he choose to use Anakin's lightsaber? While he couldn't have known that Rey and Kylo had destroyed it, wouldn't it add to the psychological warfare aspect to use his green one? Plus it would be a nice thematic nod IMO, Luke returning to save them with his green lightsaber would be a nice metaphor for Jedi Master Luke Skywalker returning to the fight in spite of the heavy odds, just like how he faced Vader and Sidious against all odds.
- I get Kylo was angry and all, but shouldn't he have realized or at least have been suspicious that Luke wasn't actually on Crait because he had the lightsaber him and Rey had destroyed around, what, an hour before? (This is probably my pettiest complaint)
- Wasn't a fan of the slow motion shot in Kylo vs Luke, just felt needless and took away from the moment.
- I would have prefered either Admiral Ackbar or Leia dying in the hyperspace suicide instead of Holdo. Ackbar because I felt his death was done far too casually, he was one of the Rebellion's old guard and deserved better than a simple one-line mention. As for Leia, as I mentioned above I just don't like the idea of Leia being in episode IX when Carrie Fisher has already passed away.
- If Luke ran away to Acht-To to die then why did he create a map to lead to him?
- Snoke dying. Unless he's managed to pull off an Essence Transfer or something of that ilk then they've wasted some huge potential. The same goes for Luke IMO, no idea why they decided to kill both of them off.
- The reason Luke's lightsaber called to Rey. While this could be solved in episode IX, I feel this should have been explained here. If the lightsaber meant nothing to Luke and it was destroyed in this why create the tangent of the lightsaber calling to her in the first place?

Spoiler: 50/50

- "Darkness rises... and light to meet it": What do you guys think this means? I keep running ideas through my head but I can't settle on anything that works well.
- DJ. I liked Del Toro's performance but the character himself only felt like he was there to provide yet another morally ambiguous aspect into the story. I like moral ambiguity but this movie didn't really need it, especially considering what they did to Luke. Plus, considering all of the crazy shit BB8 can do, why did they even need a slicer/code breaker? We've seen R2 hack lots of doors in both the PT and OT, surely a superior model like BB8 can open a door?
- Rey's parents. If the film isn't lying to us, I'm not a fan. Originally I was actually hoping that Rey would be a nobody that an alive Luke would train and build a new Jedi Order with. But that obviously can't happen now. The reason I'm not a fan is twofold. The first reason is that the Saga movies have always been about the Skywalkers, with a Skywalker serving as the main character (Luke in the OT, Anakin in the PT). The other reason is her sheer strength in the Force and how quickly she learns. For a nobody, she is way too strong considering the amount of training she has had. At least IMO. And honestly I find it sad because while I don't think Rey is a Mary Sue it gives those who think otherwise more ammunition. This being said, I don't buy her parents being nobodies. Force Visions have always been cryptic and Kylo had no reason to tell her the truth on Snoke's ship considering he was trying to get her to join him.
- Rey's Force Alignment. OK, this might seem like a weird thing to pick on but hear me out. The very first time Rey reaches out into the Force on Acht-To, she goes into the Dark Side cave, with Luke stating that she didn't even try and resist. Then she gradually begins to talk with Kylo more and more and starts to sympathise with him, to the extent that she attacks Luke when he won't tell her what happened between him and Kylo. And when they team up to fight Snoke's Praetorian guard she seems to be a really aggressive fighter, snarling and making angry expressions (funnily enough Kylo seemed much more Jedi-like than her). Yet despite all of this, she easily refuses Kylo's offer to join him. I know Snoke said that she had the spirit of a true Jedi, but this was just too... IDK, perfect(?) to me. Really hoping this comes up in episode IX.
- Luke's reaction when Rey tells him they arrived via the Falcon. The actual reaction was fantastic, but I would have loved to have seen more, Han was his brother-in-law after all and they were incredibly close, I'm sure Mark Hamill would have given one hell of a scene had it not been cut off.
- Luke's shoulder brush. Really minor thing, I get why he did it and it made me chuckle again but I think the moment would have been far better had Luke just stood there stoically.
- Some of the criticisms Luke leveled at the PT Jedi Order seemed kinda harsh IMO. In particular the criticism that they let Darth Sidious rise into power. While that is true, it took the Rule of Two Sith 1000 years and even then the PT Jedi almost stopped him. And that was with Palapatine putting them in an impossible situation (the Clone Wars). The criticism of how they created Vader was fair enough though.
- I've got some hope that Luke actually used Fold Space rather than ascending to the Force.
- I'm not really sure how J.J Abrams can continue some storylines, while I mostly liked TLJ it really seemed to throw a lot of what TFA teased out of the window. Rey's parents? No one. Snoke? Dead, doesn't matter. Why did Luke go to Acht-To? He was a failure, now he's dead.

If this gave the impression that I hated TLJ then my bad, I'm just better at pointing out and explaining negatives rather than positives. I still think TLJ is a big improvement over TFA, though I think Rogue One is still my favourite movie out of the post-Disney movies.

Spoiler: Star wars

Lol, I also missed rey taking the tomes. I figured they weren't important but i guess they are. Yoda is a bit of a dick though (that... sounds way more redundant that it should), he can't have not known rey took them. I guess revealing that would have made the tree's destruction less significant so this makes sense though.

About snoke (what a stupid name), I was thinking about how he was shown in the last movie and now he just seems... different. In the past movie he was calm and collected throughout, stoic and manipulative. In this movie we see him straight up gloat for 20 minutes about how awesome he is and all that. I am guessing this is because the 3 movies weren't written in advance and the director had the freedom to do as he pleases in this film. I would have to watch the force awakens again but based on how I remember him at least they just seem like different characters. I mean, in the first film he doesn't react to his death star (planet?) exploding and now he starts with a rant?

I agree about leia. The movie subverts for the sake of subverting, not for the sake of telling a good compelling story. I guess the big question is how all of these subverting feels after rewatching the movie. Any classic survives basically because you can watch it again after all. For me even the prequels are rewatchable however TFA, however good it felt the first time watching it, gets more annoying on a rewatch.

TBH I didn't mind luke's.... moment of doubt. Hammil did an incredibly job throughout and to me the scene fell in place rather well together. Specially with the bit about legends, luke being seen as perfect in spite of being just a person, him coming to believe and try to act out on the legend, his own hubris coming back to him. What bothered me a bit more was how kylo reacted to seeing luke with a lightsaber. From his perspective another perfectly plausible scenario should have been to be knighted a freaking jedi. "HOLY CRAP UNCLE LUKE AM I BEING KNIGHTED!?". Instead he threw a wall on luke. And.... then didn't kill him? Luke was unconscious FFS and ben was already plenty evil. We could at least have had a mention that at the time ben thought luke was trying to murder him he couldn't bring himself to end his uncle.

Luke did regress on a number of ways but hammil's performance is too awesome for me to resent it. What bothers me to no end is that he died the way he did and he didn't complete his mission after yet again being given his mission by yoda. His death subverted for the sake of subverting but it doesn't play out well with the story.

I am annoyed at how good a pilot poe is. He is basically magic and not even a force sensitive. Him being magic without using magic in a world where magic is a thing is bullcrap. I like how his every call turns out to be wrong and stupid but that is not something we can credit him for. Of course, part of the issue here is that command doesn't tell poe that they actually have a perfect plan to escape and there was no reason to do anything stupid. However command didn't and poe went rogue as poes are wont to do and the result was a stupid plan which backfired as expected which of course led to half the remaining rebellion being destroyed when the decrypter sold them out (how did he know about that plan though) and that of course led to the avoidable battle at salt planet where luke had to sacrifice himself. So basically poe killed luke and he shall forever be the target of my hatred for it and will forever look forward to gruesome, undignified death in the next movie.

The bit about rey's parents was also subverting for the sake of subverting. I get that they didn't want to make this about the skywalker but... why? The trilogies were about luke and anakin. People saw the prequels because they wanted to see anakin. Not all of it was awesome (him being a child of prophecy, being a creepy stalker in AOTC and making so little sense in ROTS) but damn, we know what we went to the movies for. Frankly, I wanted to watch the sequel trilogy to watch luke's badass new and improved compassionate jedi order (unlike the old one whose reaction to hearing someone was going to die was to let go....) deal with whatever nonsense followed. I wanted a skywalker movie. I didn't want the same skywalker movies as before of course but damn, that is what writers are for. Rey not being... anyone has it's good points of course but the movie just set the whole thing up to get rid of the entire skywalker bloodline entirely. And again, subverting for the sake of subverting. TBH I am not even clear on why rey's parents being no one is such a big deal for her. She was a non slave orphan in jakku, why would her parents being no one be such a big issue? I am not an abandoned orphan myself of course but I can't imagine actual orphans being disappointed that their parents weren't kings or whatever rey's expectations were. Rey was surprised that her parents were no one. As a grown ass adult orphan from nowhere her parents being dead in a ditch should have been something she kinda saw coming AND the alternative, them being someone, should have been shocking to her. Movie subverts for the sake of subverting and it looks awesome the first time but the more I think about it the more it falls apart.

Have you seen the clone wars and other star wars material? That is where the whole thing with the old jedi being incompetent falls into place. To me this is a perfect acknowledgement of what went on during the clone wars with the jedi. The movies needed this IMO.

I feel the same way about where the next movie is going. If this is supposed to be a trilogy then this movie should lead smoothly to the next based on what was built over two movies. But... As you say, everything is gone now. Snoke? We barely knew thee. Luke? We knew thee plenty but dammit that is why we need thee. There is nothing at ach too. Literally, luke didn't go there to learn anything, whatever was there of any worth is either destroyed by yoda or taken by rey... The only thing left is to see what kylo does with the first order. Which could be good. I just hope luke comes back as a force ghost and trains rey, his mission can't be allowed to fail....

 

[upsurge]

@MLG Bradman
@kkck

Spoiler

I would like to point out that Poe might be slightly Force sensitive. The guy grew up around a Force sensitive tree (whose parent tree once grew in the Jedi temple courtyard on Coruscant). Growing up around that tree it might have given him some measure Force sensitivity and thus some low level precognition and low level superhuman reflexes.

That being said, Poe single-handedly taking on a dreadnought is still just too much to digest. Firstly, hints at Poe's Force sensitivity are really obscure so most people, even hardcore fans, will find it hard to digest. Secondly, there's the fact that even freaking Luke had a difficult time going up against an Immobilizer 418 interdictor cruiser (a ship that is really puny and far less defended compared to a dreadnought) even after giving himself over to the Force and letting it guide his actions. Thirdly, Poe might have been hyped up in the canon comics as being capable of single-handedly taking on a First Order light cruiser; but a 300 to 600 metre long light cruiser and a nearly 8 kilometre long dreadnought are two completely different things.

I agree with MLG Bradman. Rogue One is probably my favourite Star Wars film right now after the Disney takeover of Lucasfilm. All being said however, and after having had more time to digest it all, I did enjoy Last Jedi just as much as I did Force Awakens. It's not the shit show that a large chunk of the fandom is making it out to be and is indeed a good film. But I wouldn't say it's the best Star Wars film to date. Revenge of the Sith and Empire Strikes Back will always be on top. Always.

 

[Ebony Maw]

Sorry about the late reply, I've been really busy on the run up to Christmas. Also sorry if some of what I post doesn't make sense, mega tired right now but really want to talk about Star Wars.

Spoiler: Star wars

Lol, I also missed rey taking the tomes. I figured they weren't important but i guess they are. Yoda is a bit of a dick though (that... sounds way more redundant that it should), he can't have not known rey took them. I guess revealing that would have made the tree's destruction less significant so this makes sense though.

Spoiler

I'm really hoping that the books actually factor in to the plot of episode IX and aren't just used as a plot device to make Rey more powerful over a time-skip. TLJ looked like it was going to heavily explore the Force IMO and the fact that it didn't was one of my biggest disappointments. Just imagine the kind of wisdom in those books... hell, even if they decide to have the books contain bad lessons/content it would still be interesting to see Rey's reactions to them.

Good point on the tree actually, I was wondering why he didn't tell Luke that she took the books.

Spoiler: Star wars

About snoke (what a stupid name), I was thinking about how he was shown in the last movie and now he just seems... different. In the past movie he was calm and collected throughout, stoic and manipulative. In this movie we see him straight up gloat for 20 minutes about how awesome he is and all that. I am guessing this is because the 3 movies weren't written in advance and the director had the freedom to do as he pleases in this film. I would have to watch the force awakens again but based on how I remember him at least they just seem like different characters. I mean, in the first film he doesn't react to his death star (planet?) exploding and now he starts with a rant?

Spoiler

Yeah his change in character is somewhat strange, though to be fair we did see a hint of his anger in TFA when he shut Hux up. Considering that TLJ is basically just a couple of days after TFA it could just be that Snoke was lambasting his supposedly competent subordinates to vent his built up anger. They did lose him a multi-planet killer, a powerful Force Sensitive and a map to Luke after all.

That being said I agree with you, just playing Devil's Advocate. And lol at the name Snoke, though tbf Sheev isn't that much better.

Just want to touch on something here actually, do you think the First Order is actually threatening? I honestly think they might be the weakest faction in terms of overall presence, since Hux ends up being everybody's whipping boy, Kylo flies into temper tantrums and Supreme Leader "more powerful than Vader and Sidious" Snoke gets bisected by his apprentice, the same apprentice that he claimed to know everything about. IDK, the First Order just seems so incompetent...

Spoiler: Star wars

I agree about leia. The movie subverts for the sake of subverting, not for the sake of telling a good compelling story. I guess the big question is how all of these subverting feels after rewatching the movie. Any classic survives basically because you can watch it again after all. For me even the prequels are rewatchable however TFA, however good it felt the first time watching it, gets more annoying on a rewatch.

Spoiler

Fully agreed, subverting cliches can be incredibly rewarding but at the same time they need to remember that cliches are cliches for a reason. Killing off Leia would have opened up so many possibilities in a natural and organic way, not to mention it would be a fantastic and respectful send off to Carrie Fisher. And since they almost certainly wouldn't kill off Luke and Leia in the same film it would have meant we would get more of Mark Hamill's amazing performance... ah, what could have been.

Spoiler: Star wars

TBH I didn't mind luke's.... moment of doubt. Hammil did an incredibly job throughout and to me the scene fell in place rather well together. Specially with the bit about legends, luke being seen as perfect in spite of being just a person, him coming to believe and try to act out on the legend, his own hubris coming back to him. What bothered me a bit more was how kylo reacted to seeing luke with a lightsaber. From his perspective another perfectly plausible scenario should have been to be knighted a freaking jedi. "HOLY CRAP UNCLE LUKE AM I BEING KNIGHTED!?". Instead he threw a wall on luke. And.... then didn't kill him? Luke was unconscious FFS and ben was already plenty evil. We could at least have had a mention that at the time ben thought luke was trying to murder him he couldn't bring himself to end his uncle.

Luke did regress on a number of ways but hammil's performance is too awesome for me to resent it. What bothers me to no end is that he died the way he did and he didn't complete his mission after yet again being given his mission by yoda. His death subverted for the sake of subverting but it doesn't play out well with the story.

Spoiler

Quick thing on Kylo, while I hate the scene, I don't think he could have mistaken what Luke was doing as knighting him, the look on Luke's face was harrowing from what we see in his POV, he had the eyes of a killer. That being said I'm with you on not understanding how Luke isn't dead, Kylo seems to be awfully incompetent when the plot needs him to be.

While I wholeheartedly agree that Mark Hamill's performance was phenomenal (TLJ is worth watching just for him), the story just doesn't respect Luke enough IMO. It essentially makes him a coward and a failure, as no matter which way you cut it he ran away from the threat of Kylo and Snoke, let the First Order rise and in turn let the Dark Side rise up again. His retreat can't even be reasoned tactically either, unlike Yoda or Obi-Wan. He wasn't waiting to train a promising student or to return to the fight, he was content to die alone and leave the galaxy in darkness. That is not Luke Skywalker. The core of Luke's character is that he doesn't give in to darkness and sees the light in others, having him run away without a plan and letting his nephew succumb to the Dark Side flies completely against this.

About the thing about legends just being people too... while I get what they were going for, haven't we already seen that with Han? Of all the characters to do this to Luke was the worst candidate IMO, especially in the way they do it. I think its a case of meh concept and bad execution for me, Hamill just did an incredible job which saved the plotline.

Spoiler: Star wars

I am annoyed at how good a pilot poe is. He is basically magic and not even a force sensitive. Him being magic without using magic in a world where magic is a thing is bullcrap. I like how his every call turns out to be wrong and stupid but that is not something we can credit him for. Of course, part of the issue here is that command doesn't tell poe that they actually have a perfect plan to escape and there was no reason to do anything stupid. However command didn't and poe went rogue as poes are wont to do and the result was a stupid plan which backfired as expected which of course led to half the remaining rebellion being destroyed when the decrypter sold them out (how did he know about that plan though) and that of course led to the avoidable battle at salt planet where luke had to sacrifice himself. So basically poe killed luke and he shall forever be the target of my hatred for it and will forever look forward to gruesome, undignified death in the next movie.

Spoiler

LMAO, dude, I actually hadn't thought about how Poe's actions ended up with Luke dying. damn.

Honestly, the whole Poe vs Holdo drama was such BS, there was literally no reason in the world for her to not tell him the plan. Even if the drama had to be there they could have done it in a better way: have Holdo suspect there's a spy on the ship. Tracking through hyperspace is impossible in their eyes (until Finn and Rose tell Poe, and he tells the others later) and Poe has survived through some crazily extraordinary shit. For example, he survived being caught by the First Order and just happens to have been helped by a Stormtrooper, a Stormtrooper that just suddenly defects? If Holdo suspects there's a spy it at least makes sense as to why she won't tell Poe her plans.

Spoiler: Star wars

The bit about rey's parents was also subverting for the sake of subverting. I get that they didn't want to make this about the skywalker but... why? The trilogies were about luke and anakin. People saw the prequels because they wanted to see anakin. Not all of it was awesome (him being a child of prophecy, being a creepy stalker in AOTC and making so little sense in ROTS) but damn, we know what we went to the movies for. Frankly, I wanted to watch the sequel trilogy to watch luke's badass new and improved compassionate jedi order (unlike the old one whose reaction to hearing someone was going to die was to let go....) deal with whatever nonsense followed. I wanted a skywalker movie. I didn't want the same skywalker movies as before of course but damn, that is what writers are for. Rey not being... anyone has it's good points of course but the movie just set the whole thing up to get rid of the entire skywalker bloodline entirely. And again, subverting for the sake of subverting. TBH I am not even clear on why rey's parents being no one is such a big deal for her. She was a non slave orphan in jakku, why would her parents being no one be such a big issue? I am not an abandoned orphan myself of course but I can't imagine actual orphans being disappointed that their parents weren't kings or whatever rey's expectations were. Rey was surprised that her parents were no one. As a grown ass adult orphan from nowhere her parents being dead in a ditch should have been something she kinda saw coming AND the alternative, them being someone, should have been shocking to her. Movie subverts for the sake of subverting and it looks awesome the first time but the more I think about it the more it falls apart.

Spoiler

Agreed with everything here, though I personally liked Anakin being a child of prophecy. It showed that even destined heroes can lose to a trained and dedicated master.

Spoiler: Star wars

Have you seen the clone wars and other star wars material? That is where the whole thing with the old jedi being incompetent falls into place. To me this is a perfect acknowledgement of what went on during the clone wars with the jedi. The movies needed this IMO.

Spoiler

TCW is actually my favourite piece of Star Wars media. In my original post I wasn't really disagreeing that the PT Jedi were arrogant and somewhat incompetent, just that it was massively oversimplified. While I wouldn't expect them to go massively in depth about it, I just feel that they really undersold how the ROT Sith stacked everything against the PT Jedi. And even then, they almost succeeded. Had Anakin not been in the Chancellor's office its debatable whether Mace would have died.

Despite this I'm also glad the movies pointed out the flaws of the Jedi, adds some more depth. Though if they really wanted to shine some light on their shady stuff they should have made things like the Padawan Massacre on Taris canon.

Spoiler: Star wars

I feel the same way about where the next movie is going. If this is supposed to be a trilogy then this movie should lead smoothly to the next based on what was built over two movies. But... As you say, everything is gone now. Snoke? We barely knew thee. Luke? We knew thee plenty but dammit that is why we need thee. There is nothing at ach too. Literally, luke didn't go there to learn anything, whatever was there of any worth is either destroyed by yoda or taken by rey... The only thing left is to see what kylo does with the first order. Which could be good. I just hope luke comes back as a force ghost and trains rey, his mission can't be allowed to fail....

Spoiler

Completely agreed, Kylo saying "KiLl tHe PaSt" got annoying after a while but its clearly somewhat meta. If Luke doesn't come back as a Force ghost and finish his business (bonus points if he ends up redeeming Kylo as a Force ghost) then I will be pissed.

 

[Jammin]

My reactions/impressions to the specifics of the Last Jedi plot.

Spoiler: Pros

That they made a Star Wars movie work whose overarching theme was "failure". Everybody in this movie fails. Every single character has a central character arc about them failing in some way. That's a crazy thing to do but I think it mostly worked.

Rey's parents being nobody special. I actually dig that a lot. I'm a big fan of a self made jedi hero. It was always hard to sell the "anybody can be a hero" with the jedi bloodline stuff baked into the Skywalker family.

Rose's sublot. She's a divisive character but I liked her a lot. I feel like the awkward love triangle with her and Finn and Rey is something I can get into.

Kylo Ren character arc. He's turning into a great villain. Now he feels dangerous and insane in the way I want a potential future Sith lord to feel. Like there is just an inherent wrongness with how his mind works.

Everything Luke Skywalker. Mark Hamill is the man. He stole the show in this movie. Even if he did disagree with the character arc they gave him he did a fantastic job selling it. From the part where he chucked that lightsaber like garbage to the scene in the salt desert it worked for me in a big way.

The light speed kamikaze run. It's probably going to F up the lore somehow but I don't care because it looked awesome.

Spoiler: Cons

The Poe Subplot. That was bad. Just bad. It didn't go anywhere it didn't do anything. It didn't need to be there.

The Casino Trip. Also bad. Felt shoehorned in. Didn't add much of anything. I am on board for Finn and Rose trying to shut down the tracker but that trip was just a bad idea.

Benicio Del Torro. I was crushed when they didn't get the suave guy in the casino and instead got this shifty looking smuggler type the met in a jail.

 

[upsurge]

@MLG Bradman

Spoiler

I know this sounds like one of those "go read the books" kind of deals but please bear with me:

The Aftermath trilogy of novels and Bloodline paint the New Republic as far more incompetent. Seriously, it's a wonder those fuckers even made it 30 years. Like the First Order, they didn't learn from all the mistakes of their spiritual predecessor.

As far as incompetence goes, this is how I would rank the various Galactic regimes:

New Republic
Galactic Republic (Prequel Era) / Confederacy of Independent Systems
Galactic Empire / First Order

 

[Ebony Maw]

@MLG Bradman

Spoiler

I know this sounds like one of those "go read the books" kind of deals but please bear with me:

The Aftermath trilogy of novels and Bloodline paint the New Republic as far more incompetent. Seriously, it's a wonder those fuckers even made it 30 years. Like the First Order, they didn't learn from all the mistakes of their spiritual predecessor.

As far as incompetence goes, this is how I would rank the various Galactic regimes:

New Republic
Galactic Republic (Prequel Era) / Confederacy of Independent Systems
Galactic Empire / First Order

Spoiler

I suppose they had to be more incompetent to allow for the First Order to rise, I'll try and give them a read. That's disappointing, though, I hate PIS.

Also I'm interested in your incompetence rankings, are the Prequel Era GR + CIS more incompetent than the GE/FO because they didn't realize they were being used by Sidious?

 

[upsurge]

Spoiler

I suppose they had to be more incompetent to allow for the First Order to rise, I'll try and give them a read. That's disappointing, though, I hate PIS.

Also I'm interested in your incompetence rankings, are the Prequel Era GR + CIS more incompetent than the GE/FO because they didn't realize they were being used by Sidious?

Spoiler

Just two people could manipulate the Galactic Republic and CIS into warring with each other, fucking up each other's economies, collapsing, then allowing for the rise of a new order.

The only reason I rank the New Republic below them is because of how fucking blind they were to the manipulations of the imperial sympathizers and for becoming too fucking complacent. And they absolutely fucking refused to learn from the mistakes of the old republic. They just flat out refused to learn.