Movies Star Wars - The Thread

[upsurge]

I get what you're saying but Anakin was male and that didn't protect him or Hayden Christensen from scrutiny. It happens to characters that are the focal points of disappointing movies.

The scrutiny around Anakin to me mostly seemed centred around badly written dialogue and bland acting. There was nothing along the lines of him breaking the franchise.

Criticizing a character is one thing. Putting a negative label on them and accusing them of breaking the franchise is another.

Less than 1% that is bitching about it? Dunno, that seems like a gross mischaracterization to me. I would say the majority of people I know who saw TLJ left feeling mixed or underwhelmed by it. TFA didn't reinvent the wheel, but I still really enjoyed it. I was not against having my expectations subverted. I was even ready for a more "gray" Luke... But sadly the film overall was executed rather poorly IMO.

Honestly? Even 1% is a high-ball. A look at the actual numbers of toxic fans and haters will show the numbers being at most in the ballpark of hundreds of thousands. And that's on Twitter and YouTube - which are wretched hives of scum and villainy and whiny man babies. And it's out of tens of millions (or even hundreds of millions?) of Star Wars fans. The number just seems way higher because of how vocal these people are and because they stick to certain visible echo-chambers on the internet.

And, yeah... TLJ has its flaws. I don't deny that. I'm still salty as hell about how poorly written the battles in that movie are.

Why wouldn't we consider how Rey was written in the movie? And what does male and female have to do with anything? For someone who hopes the political side of this dies, your sure are hung up on that. I just got done saying how I thought Poe and Finn were bad too for different reasons. And almost nobody had any problem with Rey in the Force Awakens because, as I literally just said, she was written just fine in that movie.

Attachment to her past is not a "flaw" unless it actually results in something bad. Which it didn't.

"Mary Sue" doesn't mean everything works out either. In fact in the actual story that the term comes from the character dies and everybody is at her memorial service talking about how wonderful she was. What it refers to is when characters don't work for their gains and therefor are not empathetic. That was not the case with Luke or even Rey in the The Force Awakens.

And Star Wars is not a power fantasy. There is nothing wrong with power fantasies that's just not what Star Wars is (outside of like videogames). Luke didn't defeat the Emperor. Darth Vader does. That alone would be enough to disqualify it. The movie Commando is power a fantasy. Star Wars at it's core is basically Coming of Age fantasy in Sci-Fi setting. Even the Last Jedi is still trying to be that. It's just failed it, IMO.

I see your point and apologize for the second time political twist in my comments.

The point I was trying to get across was that the scrutiny around her character is just suspiciously intense.

 

[Jammin]

The point I was trying to get across was that the scrutiny around her character is just suspiciously intense.

I can agree with that. Though I believe that's probably because shes the easiest target.

Like I actually don't think that character is the real problem with the movie. The real problem is the idea that subverting expectations is inherently good. When in reality subverting expectations is only as good as what you subvert them with. They sort of forgot that part.

 

[xi0]

The scrutiny around Anakin to me mostly seemed centred around badly written dialogue and bland acting. There was nothing along the lines of him breaking the franchise.

Criticizing a character is one thing. Putting a negative label on them and accusing them of breaking the franchise is another.

True, it's a slightly different situation. But my point was the type of vitriol being thrown about. Even though I find Rey disappointing and uninspiring, I quite like Daisy Ridley in the role. I just think we had a promising build-up in TFA for some interesting stuff, and it's been squandered so far do to really weird and aimless writing in TLJ. And like others have said, it's not unique to Rey's storyline really.

Honestly? Even 1% is a high-ball. A look at the actual numbers of toxic fans and haters will show the numbers being at most in the ballpark of hundreds of thousands. And that's on Twitter and YouTube - which are wretched hives of scum and villainy and whiny man babies. And it's out of tens of millions (or even hundreds of millions?) of Star Wars fans. The number just seems way higher because of how vocal these people are and because they stick to certain visible echo-chambers on the internet.

And, yeah... TLJ has its flaws. I don't deny that. I'm still salty as hell about how poorly written the battles in that movie are.

Well, among the clickbait and anti-SJW stuff, there's bound to be legitimate criticisms there for me. That doesn't mean I'm interested in taking that sort of angle with it though. Regardless of what agenda Disney may or may not have, the film has real problems for me.

The point I was trying to get across was that the scrutiny around her character is just suspiciously intense.

There's no doubt some of that is going on. The problem I have is disqualifying what I see as legitimate criticisms due to the supposed narrative that people just hate on TLJ because she's a woman. This sentiment was nowhere to be seen in the wake of TFA, so the only real difference I personally see is TLJ being a weaker film that just didn't live up to the expectations. Perhaps people were expecting something on the level of Empire Strikes Back, as many were hyping it up to be... and that just didn't happen.

 

[upsurge]

I can agree with that. Though I believe that's probably because shes the easiest target.

Yeah. That seems right.

Like I actually don't think that character is the real problem with the movie. The real problem is the idea that subverting expectations is inherently good. When in reality subverting expectations is only as good as what you subvert them with. They sort of forgot that part.

But the sort of twists and subverting we've seen in TLJ isn't anything new. The side trip to Canto Bight seemed somehow necessary to make Finn go from reluctant ally to fully fledged rebel scum (though they could have certainly handled it in another and better manner). And the big bad being killed off in his second film is also nothing new. If the original trilogy came out today, people would probably be bitching about Palpatine in the same manner that they are about Snoke.

And, quite frankly, a lot of people seem to be happy to see Ben go from pawn to big bad himself. He's now beyond redemption and is his own villain. You have to admit that that was a good twist.

Subverting expectations in a big way is nothing new for this franchise. Remember how the deified Jedi were shown to be boring slaves to custom, hypocrites, weakened by bureaucracy, used a slave clone army, were a secretive cult who kidnapped babies, slaughtered and painted as villains by a corrupt and dying republic? And remember Palpatine and the Ewoks?

Well, among the clickbait and anti-SJW stuff, there's bound to be legitimate criticisms there for me. That doesn't mean I'm interested in taking that sort of angle with it though. Regardless of what agenda Disney may or may not have, the film has real problems for me.

Jensaarai1 is a good example of someone who criticizes the new Canon as a rational adult and without being a toxic idiot. But I doubt anyone besides me here knows about him, because his videos are drowned out by those of angry irrational man-babies.

There's no doubt some of that is going on. The problem I have is disqualifying what I see as legitimate criticisms due to the supposed narrative that people just hate on TLJ because she's a woman.

Yeah. I also forgot about this. Sorry.

However, I would like to say this: The irrational haters legitimize their hatred by claiming that any criticisms of them as painting all critics as xenophobic ass-holes. It's a strategy that they hope gives them some legitimacy.

This sentiment was nowhere to be seen in the wake of TFA, so the only real difference I personally see is TLJ being a weaker film that just didn't live up to the expectations.

Actually... Daisy Ridley did receive a lot of vitriol after TFA. It was just as bad as the vitriol around TLJ. After TFA, she quit social media and laid low for a good while after receiving death and rape threats.

Perhaps people were expecting something on the level of Empire Strikes Back, as many were hyping it up to be... and that just didn't happen.

Overhype and fanboy expectations... The bane of Star Wars.

 

[Jammin]

But the sort of twists and subverting we've seen in TLJ isn't anything new. The side trip to Canto Bight seemed somehow necessary to make Finn go from reluctant ally to fully fledged rebel scum (though they could have certainly handled it in another and better manner). And the big bad being killed off in his second film is also nothing new. If the original trilogy came out today, people would probably be bitching about Palpatine in the same manner that they are about Snoke.

And, quite frankly, a lot of people seem to be happy to see Ben go from pawn to big bad himself. He's now beyond redemption and is his own villain. You have to admit that that was a good twist.

Subverting expectations in a big way is nothing new for this franchise. Remember how the deified Jedi were shown to be boring slaves to custom, hypocrites, weakened by bureaucracy, used a slave clone army, were a secretive cult who kidnapped babies, slaughtered and painted as villains by a corrupt and dying republic? And remember Palpatine and the Ewoks?

Subverting expections is a just a narrative tool it can be used effectively or poorly. What matters is what your shifting the plot toward by doing that. That's where TLJ runs into to trouble.

Like the subverting of the expection of mentor student relationship between Luke and Rey. Directly caused the Mary Sue situation with Rey. If she had earned her growth through training people would not be complaining.

The expections for the whole Luke Skywalker character was subverted by turning him from old and powerful hero to a sort of gross coward hiding away and waiting to die. Which is completely unlike the character.

The Canto Bight/hacker sidequest proved completely pointless because it subverted the idea that they would find some expert then save the day. But they weren't able to do that. Thereby rendering it pointless.

Poe's quest to save the resistance from a cowardly commander was subverted by the realization the the commander was correct and he was fool. Problem is that permanently damages the Poe character in the eyes of the audience. Now we need a redemption arc for him that we don't have time for.

Even Leia's death, which would have been fine, was subverted when she spontaneously sprouted incredible and unexplained force powers. Which creates yet another problem.

---------------------------------

The common theme here is that there is a massive difference between a "plot twist" and "clever plot twist". The twist needs to serve the story. Like The Usual Suspects. If it doesn't do that it's just the screenwriter stroking his own pen so to speak. It's more about the writer trying to feel clever than telling a good story.

The real tragedy in the reactions to TLJ is that so many put the blame in the wrong place. Daisy Riddly didn't do anything wrong. None of the actors did. They just read the lines that were given to them. That's thier job. Nobody should ever blame them any of them for this. It's like blaming a waitress for under cooked food.

 

[kkck]

And you go on and on about TLJ stupidly subverting expectations, but never address the real problem: That of a tiny but vocal minority of Star Wars fans having expectations that are too ridiculous to meet being subverted, and then whining endlessly about it like a bunch pf petulant brats. And do note that this isn't a dig at you. I am also guilty of this. It was the reason I came out of TLJ mostly with mixed feelings after the first viewing.

But it's time to grow up and move past the hatred. Just how salty can you be over a movie franchise for 12 year olds? I realized this and moves on. You should too, for the sake of your mental health. Either that or drop this franchise.


Legends: We see Luke demolish and move a 3 km high and wide palace and has indeed uplifted a mountain, Luke and Kyp Durron manipulate a black hole (albeit an artificial one), Darth Bane affected the orbit of a moon with his Force power, Palpatine can unleash Force Storms capable of destroying the surface of an entire planet, Darth Nihilus life-wiped a planet and razed its surface just by speaking, Abeloth melted a city and caused a planet to quake violently with a Force Scream.

Canon: Yoda blocked a blow from and also sent a multi-kilometer tall living mountain flying with his telekinesis in the Yoda's Secret War arc of the canon Marvel Star Wars comics.


It's like less than 1% of the fandom that is bitching endlessly about TLJ. And that 1% does not speak for the whole fandom. They're a vocal minority that everyone is sick of. And it's this vocal minority that once killed Star Wars and is trying to kill it again. Lucasfilm is under no obligation to satisfy our ridiculous expectations. At the end of the day, the movies are for the 99% sane fans and to make money. And TLJ succeeded at that. And it succeeded gloriously.

The movie has more than a few flaws and doesn't rank highly in my list of Star Wars films. But the hatred it has received is too damn much.

i mean, if you don't want to talk about the movie then... don't. Or are comments on the movie valid only if they are positive? As for the moving past the hatred... What does that even mean in this context? Liking the movie? If, hypothetically, you make a point that you dislike a movie or a development in it and someone answers "move past the hate" do you immediately start liking that movie? Or do you take it as a "fuck off"?

Honestly, I am not familiar with the bulk of legends or current cannon star wars stuff. I did watch rebels and clone wars animated series but they hardly explode mountains with a thought. If it comes to extended universe stuff, virtually no one knows that shit. So bringing it up as if it was something people specifically wanted when clearly most people won't know about it is just weird. And you certainly didn't "know" I wanted any of that.

And agreed with xi0, its absolutely not 1%. Certainly there is a toxic alt right thing going on that targets anything that involves women, non whites and diversity.... But who in this entire thread has even brought up anything about the characters gender or race? That's not a part of the discussion here as far as I can tell.

 

[upsurge]

The expections for the whole Luke Skywalker character was subverted by turning him from old and powerful hero to a sort of gross coward hiding away and waiting to die. Which is completely unlike the character.

Yeah... Gross coward is just a wrong way to put it. And you're confusing cowardice and disillusionment. The latter is a thing. He's only human, not some Gary Stu who stays positive all the time and always does the legendary heroic thing. People get disillusioned, they get broken, they get depressed. It's a fact of life. I see the whole thing as humanizing Luke, not breaking him.

The Canto Bight/hacker sidequest proved completely pointless because it subverted the idea that they would find some expert then save the day. But they weren't able to do that. Thereby rendering it pointless.

Literally the whole theme of the movie was failure.

Poe's quest to save the resistance from a cowardly commander was subverted by the realization the the commander was correct and he was fool. Problem is that permanently damages the Poe character in the eyes of the audience. Now we need a redemption arc for him that we don't have time for.

I fail to see how Poe's character was damaged. He's a young hotshot pilot that has some growing up to do. And I fail to see how a character growth arc for him is a waste of time. If he didn't have one, people would complain that he was bland and just there to be the badass pilot. And if he was just a badass but bland as hell pilot character who was right all the time, what would that make him? It'd make him Gary Stu-ish.

Even Leia's death, which would have been fine, was subverted when she spontaneously sprouted incredible and unexplained force powers. Which creates yet another problem.

Unexplained Force powers? Do you remember who her father and brother are?

i mean, if you don't want to talk about the movie then... don't. Or are comments on the movie valid only if they are positive? As for the moving past the hatred... What does that even mean in this context? Liking the movie? If, hypothetically, you make a point that you dislike a movie or a development in it and someone answers "move past the hate" do you immediately start liking that movie? Or do you take it as a "fuck off"?

Yeah... Sorry. That comment was uncalled for. I wasn't trying to be an ass but I clearly come off as one.

I always do this...

Honestly, I am not familiar with the bulk of legends or current cannon star wars stuff. I did watch rebels and clone wars animated series but they hardly explode mountains with a thought. If it comes to extended universe stuff, virtually no one knows that shit. So bringing it up as if it was something people specifically wanted when clearly most people won't know about it is just weird. And you certainly didn't "know" I wanted any of that.

I apologize about the Legends stuff I brought up. I feel this would have been a better thing to say: Giving us an OP badass Luke who went out and kicked ass royally would have been just fanservice. And Luke suddenly going from self-imposed exile to slayer of First Order ass would have been too cliche and I think even lazy writing. The Luke we got was not only good twist but also, as many people have stated, an example of what a true Jedi should be; not some badass just walking in wrecking shit, but giving people hope and willing to sacrifice for a good cause.

And agreed with xi0, its absolutely not 1%.

Seriously... It is like 1% of the fandom that is complaining. All of the non-toxic Star Wars YouTubers who actually do their research attest to this (Alex Damon, Urban Acolyte, Eckhartsladder, HelloGreedo). So does a Caltech professor who published a paper showing that a large chunk of the anti-Disney faction are bots or socks.

Let's say the number of anti Disney fantion was at least half of the sub base of say . . . Star Wars Theory. That's still hundreds of thousands in a fandom numbering at least in the tens of millions.

Certainly there is a toxic alt right thing going on that targets anything that involves women, non whites and diversity.... But who in this entire thread has even brought up anything about the characters gender or race? That's not a part of the discussion here as far as I can tell.

Yeah, we've moved past this. I apologized for bringing this up twice or thrice.

 

[xi0]

Seriously... It is like 1% of the fandom that is complaining. All of the non-toxic Star Wars YouTubers who actually do their research attest to this (Alex Damon, Urban Acolyte, Eckhartsladder, HelloGreedo). So does a Caltech professor who published a paper showing that a large chunk of the anti-Disney faction are bots or socks.

Let's say the number of anti Disney fantion was at least half of the sub base of say . . . Star Wars Theory. That's still hundreds of thousands in a fandom numbering at least in the tens of millions.

Can you clarify what this 1% is saying/doing exactly? I took it to mean people who disliked the movie. If you meant something else then maybe I mistook your point. Because if we're talking about the most hateful people sending death threats or something then I would probably agree.

 

[kkck]

Found this bit on 9gag:
Obi Wan loves to barbecue https://9gag.com/gag/amBxrv4?ref=android

If two movies into a trilogy people still only reference your villain as a whinny bitch then your movie either has awful writing or your casting was irredeemably wrong... Kylo isn't written that poorly in general but he is definitely something the movie should regret and perhaps the best reason to scrap this trilogy so far. Actually second best, poe is just awful...

 

[Jammin]

Kylo is strange one. I feel like he could work but only as sub-villain.

Kylo never seemed frightening or forboding the way Vader or Emperor or even Snoke on the Force Awakens. His "villain mode" kind of like a kid throwing a tantrum. Like the idea of him running the first order seems like an ideal situation for the rebels.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 19, 2019, Original Post Date: Mar 19, 2019 ---

That's not to say I think there is not potential there. I think as a personal adversary to Rey he can work reasonably well. But as an overarching villain... he just doesn't seem stable or competent enough.

 

[kkck]

Kylo is strange one. I feel like he could work but only as sub-villain.

Kylo never seemed frightening or forboding the way Vader or Emperor or even Snoke on the Force Awakens. His "villain mode" kind of like a kid throwing a tantrum. Like the idea of him running the first order seems like an ideal situation for the rebels.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 19, 2019, Original Post Date: Mar 19, 2019 ---

That's not to say I think there is not potential there. I think as a personal adversary to Rey he can work reasonably well. But as an overarching villain... he just doesn't seem stable or competent enough.

Conceptually, kylo ren makes a ton of sense. As in, he is a good idea. But adam driver is simply not someone that can deliver on the character. Remember during the force awakens when he took of his masks? People straight up laughed. And isn't something I read online, people at the movie theater I was in laughed at him. Of course, that might have been intentional and the point would be to see him grow into a dark lord of the force.... But two movies in and he remains equally intimidating. Which is to say he looks completely punchable. Snoke was actually cool of course and had the markings (though his name is adorable) of a good and proper villain but he was worst than off screened.... Kylo ren should have been someone that could at least pretend to be intimidating. The way driver has portrayed kylo so far it honestly would make more sense that episode IX ends with rei giving him wedgie.

 

[Jammin]

Conceptually, kylo ren makes a ton of sense. As in, he is a good idea. But adam driver is simply not someone that can deliver on the character. Remember during the force awakens when he took of his masks? People straight up laughed. And isn't something I read online, people at the movie theater I was in laughed at him. Of course, that might have been intentional and the point would be to see him grow into a dark lord of the force.... But two movies in and he remains equally intimidating. Which is to say he looks completely punchable. Snoke was actually cool of course and had the markings (though his name is adorable) of a good and proper villain but he was worst than off screened.... Kylo ren should have been someone that could at least pretend to be intimidating. The way driver has portrayed kylo so far it honestly would make more sense that episode IX ends with rei giving him wedgie.

I'm not so sure it's Adam Driver's portrayal so much as how the character is written. He just isn't a scheming villain. He's an emotional villain.

I think the intent there is to portray an insane rage filled character. The issue is that he doesn't have the charismatic or regal qualities we expect from a Sith Lords in charge. It's like a thug being put in charge of a mafia family. In a way, the first order is immediatly less intimidating with him in charge because he has never shown leadership ability.

 

[kkck]

I'm not so sure it's Adam Driver's portrayal so much as how the character is written. He just isn't a scheming villain. He's an emotional villain.

I think the intent there is to portray an insane rage filled character. The issue is that he doesn't have the charismatic or regal qualities we expect from a Sith Lords in charge. It's like a thug being put in charge of a mafia family. In a way, the first order is immediatly less intimidating with him in charge because he has never shown leadership ability.

That's just a different way to say he is a huge wimp . He is not even a thug... A regular old thug with an iron pipe can easily be scary AF.

As for the scheming or emotional villain... I can't really picture him as either. His moments with "rage" so to speak end up looking like a dumb teenager's tantrums. Like when he trashed that room with a lightsaber... And he doesn't really "scheme" at all. Even when he got snoke... Kylo probably thought he'd eventually get rid of snoke as any third rate dark side user would but he absolutely did not plan to do that then. Kylo just improvised it and it kinda plays out well in the movie because snoke began his exposition about what was going to happen 5 seconds into the future at a very convenient time (and even then its unforgivable that snoke was dealt with so off handedly). The overall issue here is that kylo isn't really much of anything. The movies as a whole have tried to build kylo up from a winy vader cosplayer to full fledged next gen sith lord. Which is just an awesome concept. But the movie deals with this so incompetently and unevenly that kylo has become emperor and he still looks like your average nerd could and would give him a wedgie.

Heck, why does rey even give a crap about kylo? Why does she want to save him? They certainly never built anything like a friendly relationship over the force awakens. If anything kylo murdered han, someone with whom rey developed a quick friendship with. And then kylo tortured her a bit and tried to cut her with a lightsaber. Its entirely all too stupid that rey wants anything to do with kylo other than skewering him with a lightsaber or throw him in prison. The only way rey would even consider this would be if she thought kylo might be his cousin or something. As in, she having some awareness of online theories about what might her ancestry be. But otherwise this is nonsense. And then we have rey for some reason wanting to save kylo while luke, his uncle and master who saved vader with love making the point that kylo was too far gone. what would have been coherent here is rey not having awareness of online theories regarding her ancestry and her wanting to skewer kylo for literally all of the bullshit he has pulled while luke in turn makes the point that jedi overcome fear and hatred with love and that kylo can be saved. And also throw in a healthy mix of luke not wanting to kill the nephew he loves and failed to. But no, what we got was SuBvErTiNg ExPeCtAtIoNs to the point where even character roles were switched for no reason whatsoever. Add to that how horribly this plays out with luke in general being just sort of "meh" about han dying and how cool he was about feeding his sister to the wolves.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 20, 2019, Original Post Date: Mar 19, 2019 ---

Question, does anyone get the impression that snoke in TFA and in TLJ were different characters? Not as in two different people of course but rather as if the portrayal is different. In TFA snoke seemed cold, calculating and mysterious... And then he shows up in TLJ and he is.... fabulous?

 

[Jammin]

Question, does anyone get the impression that snoke in TFA and in TLJ were different characters? Not as in two different people of course but rather as if the portrayal is different. In TFA snoke seemed cold, calculating and mysterious... And then he shows up in TLJ and he is.... fabulous?

I do but I think just about everything was different between the two movies. Like I don't think they were following a plan or roadmap with The Last Jedi. They planned to make 3 movies but I don't think they actually had a 3 movie plan.

Like I 100% believe that they brought Rian Johnson in and he just did his thing. With nowhere near as much oversight as you'd expect.

I honestly believe the leadership at Lucas Film got arrogant. With all the positivity around The Force Awakens and Rogue One I think they convinced themselves that Star Wars was enough of a brand that they couldn't miss. When in reality they just lucked out with JJ. Abrams, Gareth Edwards and some good screenplays. No matter what you think about Rian Johnson. If you look it has IMDB it's pretty obvious that he's nowhere near qualified to write and direct a film in the Star Wars franchise on his own. The only movie of any significance he did before this was Looper.

 

[kkck]

I do but I think just about everything was different between the two movies. Like I don't think they were following a plan or roadmap with The Last Jedi. They planned to make 3 movies but I don't think they actually had a 3 movie plan.

Like I 100% believe that they brought Rian Johnson in and he just did his thing. With nowhere near as much oversight as you'd expect.

I honestly believe the leadership at Lucas Film got arrogant. With all the positivity around The Force Awakens and Rogue One I think they convinced themselves that Star Wars was enough of a brand that they couldn't miss. When in reality they just lucked out with JJ. Abrams, Gareth Edwards and some good screenplays. No matter what you think about Rian Johnson. If you look it has IMDB it's pretty obvious that he's nowhere near qualified to write and direct a film in the Star Wars franchise on his own. The only movie of any significance he did before this was Looper.

Ah, disney definitely never had anything resembling a plan regarding the 3 movies. It's honestly odd they even bother calling this a trilogy at this point because TLJ is on all accounts fairly conclusive. Unless you REALLY bought the whole thing between kylo and rey which is pretty much the one plot point left that matters. But its one thing that the trilogy and story in it wasn't planned and another when a director comes in for a sequel and altogether changes for no reason how a character is portrayed. Now I just want to know who has the balls to handle snoke's makeovers.....

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 16, 2019, Original Post Date: Mar 20, 2019 ---

So.... any thoughts on the trailer? It looked ok but it wasn't amazing either. I do like that it appears to want to backtrack on all the nonsense TLJ subjected us to. I really do hope poe dameron dies in this movie, he is probably the absolute worst character in the franchise.

As for the title.... I guess the obvious choice is that it refers to kylo's salvation. But I am not convinced he really is all that redeemable tbh.

 

[Jammin]

Not really. I watched it. Didn't feel like I came away with much though. I'm just not sure there are solutions to the problems they have and nothing I saw really changed my mind honestly.

Bringing back Palpatine in some form is a good idea. Like I said before I don't think Kylo Ren is put together in a way where he can be a great overarching villain. So maybe Palpatine can bridge that gap. It's not the best solution for continuity reasons but maybe it'll work.

Rey still has the serious problem that her achievements as a jedi seem unearned because of the lack of any real training arc. So like during that desert showdown, I'm wasn't really impressed. It didn't represent a growth of skill and accomplishment to me. That's a problem I think they need to solve but I'm not sure how they find the time for it.

I'm not sure who "The Rise of Skywalker" is referring to unless they bring Luke back from the dead. Which, is an obvious retcon but just like with the Emperor I'd be fine with it I guess. Kylo Ren is Ben Solo. So that doesn't really work. Could retcon Rey's lineage I suppose.

Anyway, I'm just kind of in wait and see mode.

 

[xi0]

Nothing about the trailer did much for me. One could say JJ Abrams might do better and walk back some of the stuff done in TLJ, but I'm not sure what could be done to salvage this trilogy overall. Johnson tried to do something different and I was open to that, but he ultimately shit the bed.

 

[Jammin]

Nothing about the trailer did much for me. One could say JJ Abrams might do better and walk back some of the stuff done in TLJ, but I'm not sure what could be done to salvage this trilogy overall. Johnson tried to do something different and I was open to that, but he ultimately shit the bed.

Pretty much.

I mean, I'm trying to look on the bright side and hope for the best. There is really no point in doing anything else. But the more I think about it the more I realize that what I'm looking for to get me excited again is going to be a tall order.

I honestly think the best course would be to essentially scrap it. Which they could do by introducing a bunch of other sith lords. Have it be discovered that a ton of Jedi from various era's are frozen and carbonite somewhere like living trophies and have Rey go and fight Kylo rescue and free them. So they could reseed the galaxy with Jedi. Have out the Rey Kylo conflict once and for all and let the Star Wars universe move on.

 

[Eigengrau]

What bothers me the most is that, how can they honestly call this a "trilogy"?

I mean this is Disney, at this time they have all the money in the world and can literally get the most talented people to work on their films, but for some reason they just don't care about the story whatsoever...?

Like, how can you say with a straight face that you're making a trilogy, but you have no clue whatsoever what the story is supposed to be about?

And with every new installment, you just say "lol do whatever you want, we'll let the next guy figure it out afterwards"?

That just doesn't make sense to me. Either give the entire trilogy to a single director, or let people run wild with their ideas in stand-alone films.

To call this a "trilogy" is simply ridiculous. I mean, "The Last Jedi" takes places what, across only a few hours/a day? And by the end it's exactly the same ending as the first film, nothing has changed, the good guys are still fleeing the bad guys.

With the first Star Wars films, there was a ton of development.

Look at Episode 4, with Luke training all the way to the Death Star, Episode 5 with the battle on Hoth and then the face-off with Vader.

We're getting none of that at all, and The Last Jedi was beyond atrocious because of this, especially with that pointless Finn/Rose subplot.

We're into the 3rd and final film and barely anything has happened, which is just baffling to me, and everyone involved should honestly be ashamed.

I'm still going to see the film on opening day/first screening, just as I did with The Last Jedi (to avoid spoilers), but I honestly don't care about it one bit.

So now they're even supposedly bringing back

Spoiler: STAR WARS 9 TRAILER

Palpatine?

That just screams desperation to me.

Didn't they say that they wanted the story/new trilogy to expand further, and that it wasn't just about Skywalkers and their legacy?

Sorry but lol, I really don't get it, and the truth is that, by the looks of things, 9 will ALSO copy 6, like 7 copied 4, and 8 copied 5 (somewhat).


Have you guys seen the trailer for Fallen Order?




THAT is the kind of story that is NOT hard to come up with, and I'd rather get a trilogy based on that rather than recycled garbage that feeds on nostalgia and ultimately goes nowhere, because in my opinion that's what we got.

I wish 9 could be at least 3 hours long, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Jammin]

That just screams desperation to me.

Isn't some desperation appropriate?

I mean, they have really made this harder than it needed to be. Like you said, people would have been happy with a classic coming of age adventure. But they tried something different. Which hasn't worked out. And they have really written themselves, and everybody else, into a corner with the idea that Rey is "The Last Jedi". That was a huge mistake, IMO. Just as a base concept.

In the long term what they need to do is open the universe back up. Get more Jedi and Sith stories going.

Which is what Jedi Fallen Order promises to be the start of. A Jedi origin story written by Chris Avallone among others? Hell yes. It's EA so I don't trust it 100%. But still. I think that's the direction everybody wants them to go. New non-prequel Jedi stories. The last movie actively got in the way of that.