Well even though Jiemma was apparently stronger than the demon gates, the fact is that while FT mages generally fought one on one, Sting and Rogue fought together and they have history as well as good team chemistry. It's indeed impressive that they defeated Jiemma but they took a pounding for majority of the fight and they collapsed afterwards, unable to do anything. Gray on the other hand, fought silver (possibly taking more severe beating), went on to tempesta, then on to Mard Geer and ultimately Etherious Mard Geer where he and Natsu took a solid beating for a while. He then took the full brunt of memento mori, still stood back up even though he'd fallen and wasn't supposed to be able to get back and then delivered the finishing blow to Mard Geer. He and Natsu were still standing and even arguing about END's book afterwards. It's a world of difference in terms of durability and stamina. Gray can simply keep on going even after taking a beating. Like I said, sting can possibly overwhelm Gray with DF, but I see him being able to withstand the hypothetical barrage (even though I don't think it'd be that one sided). A year after and Gray obviously grew immensely, even surprising Makarov who said their power was nothing like a year ago. I don't think Sting would've grown as much as Gray in the large schee of things so DF imo, would only give him a slight advantage which wouldn't suffice for him to ultimately win.
I would argue that jiemma being stronger than the gates should be considered a fact considering it is something stated by mard geer. I am not sure if grey took a more severe beating either... I guess that can be a tad subjective. A for taking memento more, I am not sure that is much of a thing. The spell didn't cause damage, it simply erased stuff. Grey did somehow resist it however in that case I doubt the consideration should be in terms of damage but rather of stamina since he would have used a ton of magic or whatever it is he used to stop it.
The comparison ultimately depends on how strong jiemma was which is kinda hard to place. So far the implication is that mard geer was more or less 4 or 5 times stronger than the strongest tartarus demon. So how much of a feat and how much of a beating they took really depends on how strong mard geer is. Also worth noting, at first it was sting and rogue that were handling mard geer, then grey and natsu took over.
In any case to me it sounds kinda doubtful that sting's base form would have a third or less the strength of grey's strongest form. As it stands dragon force is too much of a boost. In context the boost has been enough for natsu to pull off a number of incredible things through the manga. And we have no reason or context that suggests sting's dragon force should be weaker than natsu's.
It still doesn't change anything, the magic is comparable the pint was that gray can freeze such an attack. Tempesta's twisters might have damaged a building but how many did he use? And he wasn't in his Etherious form then, also, his focus was on said building. Also, the fact that an attack is dangerous and large scale doesn't mean it's fatal. Take Gildarts using his bare hands to block Natsu's Crimson lotus attacks which he's used to deal severe damage to other characters. Gray is durable and has the ability to freeze attacks. He can handle such attacks.
You're taking Makarov's words out of context. He was reacting to the fact that they were using different magic but their actual magic. When someone compares magic in that way, they're talking about the capacity not the particular type. It's just like when gray and the others reacted to brandish's magic and said she was better than Makarov. Also, Lucy's stardress is still celestial magic. Gray already use DeS magic in Tartarus. Even Lucy used Aquarius star dress back then.
It was said that rogue defeated sting in battle not that he ambushed him. You missed my point. Even before Natsu for powered up by atlas flame, he was keeping up fairly well with Rogue and rogue had dual elements. That's saying a lot.
Silver's actions and words are quite different. He might have refrained from actually killing gray but he didn't go easy. Gray was left bloodied and bruised. Also, silver holding back is irrelevant, he still got tricked.
So what you're saying is that Tempesta's twisters have around the same energy levels as Sting's roar. If it really had the same DC as Sting's roar, it would have had much more effect on the Thunder God Tribe and on Laxus. Furthermore, Etherious Tempesta isn't that much stronger than Base Tempesta, and he only casted 3. This is neither enough to put Gray's DC on Sting's level nor to prove that he can freeze Sting's attacks. Maybe Gray will be able to tank (although he would stay really injured) or to dodge the roar, but he's never shown anything that can convince me that he can freeze Sting's attacks (and this includes IM: Silver).
Makarov said the magic was different, not necessarily stronger. they both changed their fighting style and if their magic power was different, Makarov would have said that their MP was stronger, and not different. Besides, their feats were not that overwhelming when compared to Tartaros, as Lucy had better attacks (Urano Metria) and Gray had attacks on the same scale (IM: Gungnir). Also, Makarov didn't see any of their battles.
Ok, nevermind that. F. Rogue was stronger than LFD Natsu, so that doesn't really apply. Natsu only overpowered him when he was powered by Atlas Flame, and his base form was stronger than Gray, so that argument doesn't really work.
How did he not go easy? He was shown to casually freeze huge land masses (Sun Village), yet he didn't even use a single attack on that scale against Gray. Definitely means that he was holding back for me. So he got tricked when he was playing around. Doesn't apply to Sting.
I would argue that jiemma being stronger than the gates should be considered a fact considering it is something stated by mard geer. I am not sure if grey took a more severe beating either... I guess that can be a tad subjective. A for taking memento more, I am not sure that is much of a thing. The spell didn't cause damage, it simply erased stuff. Grey did somehow resist it however in that case I doubt the consideration should be in terms of damage but rather of stamina since he would have used a ton of magic or whatever it is he used to stop it.
The comparison ultimately depends on how strong jiemma was which is kinda hard to place. So far the implication is that mard geer was more or less 4 or 5 times stronger than the strongest tartarus demon. So how much of a feat and how much of a beating they took really depends on how strong mard geer is. Also worth noting, at first it was sting and rogue that were handling mard geer, then grey and natsu took over.
In any case to me it sounds kinda doubtful that sting's base form would have a third or less the strength of grey's strongest form. As it stands dragon force is too much of a boost. In context the boost has been enough for natsu to pull off a number of incredible things through the manga. And we have no reason or context that suggests sting's dragon force should be weaker than natsu's.
Well yes, it can be considered a fact however, the point is that sting and rogue teamed up on him and it wasn't as though they were really matching him. The battle was about 99% Jiemma tossing them around and then a few hits from them which he shrugged off before the final knockout blow but again, they collapsed afterwards
Is it really subjective though? One just needs to look at gray to see him much damage he had taken. Perhaps MM can be attributed to a stamina or expended magic thing but what about the constant beating he took at silver's hands? He was literally fighting a battle where he had almost no chance of winning. Also, Etherious MG also gave Gray and Natsu a pretty good beatdown but it didn't take them down. It's agreed that MG is superior to Jiemma so if Gray and Natsu could withstand the latter's onslaught (which would be more devastating and damaging than Jiemma's), go on to beat him and actually remain standing, it says something about their own durability/stamina as compared to sting and rogue and unlike sting and rogue, Natsu and Gray both managed to keep the fight about equal and nowhere near as one-sided as the Jiemma vs the twin dragons. Of course there are things to consider like Gray having DeS magic and Natsu using DF but in the end, they still expended a ton more magic in attacks than those two but it didn't keep them down.
Actually, sting and rogue weren't handling Mard Geer. MG was toying with them while seated. They were quite out of their league. Indeed, DF is a boost, but how much of a boost is it in Sting's case though? We've only had one instance to gauge that and that was when he and rogue fought together at GMG. They still took a beating regardless. It didn't seem to give that much of a boost or at least, not as much as Natsu usually gets when he uses DF. When Natsu uses DF, he goes from being unable to seriously harm his opponents to do serious damage and usually trumping them. For sting and rogue, there was no such thing. Yes, I know that they're a decent but stronger than they were at GMG but I don't think that changed the relevance of DF when they use it. In the end, it might not be far-fetched to think that if sting isn't already very close in power to his opponent, DF wouldn't suffice and I don't think he's close enough to Gray's level
So what you're saying is that Tempesta's twisters have around the same energy levels as Sting's roar. If it really had the same DC as Sting's roar, it would have had much more effect on the Thunder God Tribe and on Laxus. Furthermore, Etherious Tempesta isn't that much stronger than Base Tempesta, and he only casted 3. This is neither enough to put Gray's DC on Sting's level nor to prove that he can freeze Sting's attacks. Maybe Gray will be able to tank (although he would stay really injured) or to dodge the roar, but he's never shown anything that can convince me that he can freeze Sting's attacks (and this includes IM: Silver).
Makarov said the magic was different, not necessarily stronger. they both changed their fighting style and if their magic power was different, Makarov would have said that their MP was stronger, and not different. Besides, their feats were not that overwhelming when compared to Tartaros, as Lucy had better attacks (Urano Metria) and Gray had attacks on the same scale (IM: Gungnir). Also, Makarov didn't see any of their battles.
Ok, nevermind that. F. Rogue was stronger than LFD Natsu, so that doesn't really apply. Natsu only overpowered him when he was powered by Atlas Flame, and his base form was stronger than Gray, so that argument doesn't really work.
How did he not go easy? He was shown to casually freeze huge land masses (Sun Village), yet he didn't even use a single attack on that scale against Gray. Definitely means that he was holding back for me. So he got tricked when he was playing around. Doesn't apply to Sting.
How would you know if it would've have much more effect? They Thunder tribe for taken out after all. Would sting's roar have killed them? Roar isn't even the strongest attack to begin with.
On what grounds are you saying Etherious Tempesta isn't far off from base? That's contradictory to the manga's portrayal. Etherious is a size able boost, perhaps comparable to the boost DS would get from using DF. It's by no means a small thing. Anyway, this is getting too off-topic so I'll leave that.
For gray, when he and Natsu fought side by side in avatar, you can clearly see that the magic they're outputting is pretty much the same
Mashima goes the extra mile to first have them side by side, then use attacks of the same size and wreak the same havoc. There's a clear point here. Even when gray was undercover in avatar and clashed with Natsu, the brief skirmish was pretty much a draw
So basically, what we have is Mashima implying Gray and Natsu are still pretty much the same as before. Of course, Natsu still gets to fight and take out the big bad and numerous others, Natsu is also very possibly stronger than gray but the point is that gray can give him a run for his money something that cannot be said for sting.
Tbh, it seems as though you're trying to subtly put down gray. Makarov didn't say their magic is different in the type, I don't get why you're trying to dismiss an obvious point. He said its nothing compared to one year ago, and the comparison was obviously their magic and not the type. See Makarov's problem was that at the level he last knew the FT mages, they didn't stand a chance against the spriggan. This wasn't because of the type of magic the guild mages employed but rather the level. When they attacked, he expressed surprise because he realized they'd gown tremendously. Even if you want to say he was referring to them using advanced magic, his surprise still shows he was clearly impressed by it. The point is that they were no longer comparable to their Tartarus halves. They had far gone beyond that.
We've seen him freeze attacks in the past and that those were powerful attacks given the manga level at the time. Even in Alvarez, he instantly froze Ajeel and the sand golem. Yes Ajeel didn't go down, but Gray showed what he could do. Let's not forget that DeS ice is especially hard and can't be thawed or broken easily.
You're missing the point. When silver fought gray, he didn't want to kill him but he needed gray to overcome the trauma of deliora and for that, he needed to play the role well. That's why he did beat gray severely but refrained from actually killing him. That's beside the point though, when silver though gray was going to use iced shell, he was worried and got tricked by the ice clones twice. You can re-read the fight. Silver was not playing around.
This fight is so obvious. All of the restrictions favor Sting. Gray can freeze Stigma sure, Stigma was a weak feat to begin with. But since @Coné wants proof and feats, then you have to give him that.
Under these restrictions, DF Sting easily oneshots and evaporates Gray into the air cuz Gray can't bypass these restrictions.
Gray technically has no feats but simple GMG Gray + Avatar fodders + IDeSM excuses + Sand Creation freezing
All of the restrictions put Gray at Dragon Eclipse Arc Gray Fullbuster.
This thread is practically saying Current Igneel vs Current Acnologia.
Except, restrict "Current" Igneel's fire to Romeo's level. As well as restricting Igneel's feat of flying, walking, and crawling..
I don't know why anybody would vote Gray but ok.
Gray easily loses this and Sting oneshots.
If there was a poll here, I'd surely vote for Sting.
I would argue that jiemma being stronger than the gates should be considered a fact considering it is something stated by mard geer. I am not sure if grey took a more severe beating either... I guess that can be a tad subjective. A for taking memento more, I am not sure that is much of a thing. The spell didn't cause damage, it simply erased stuff. Grey did somehow resist it however in that case I doubt the consideration should be in terms of damage but rather of stamina since he would have used a ton of magic or whatever it is he used to stop it.
The comparison ultimately depends on how strong jiemma was which is kinda hard to place. So far the implication is that mard geer was more or less 4 or 5 times stronger than the strongest tartarus demon. So how much of a feat and how much of a beating they took really depends on how strong mard geer is. Also worth noting, at first it was sting and rogue that were handling mard geer, then grey and natsu took over.
In any case to me it sounds kinda doubtful that sting's base form would have a third or less the strength of grey's strongest form. As it stands dragon force is too much of a boost. In context the boost has been enough for natsu to pull off a number of incredible things through the manga. And we have no reason or context that suggests sting's dragon force should be weaker than natsu's.
I wouldn't completely take Mard Geer's words on Jiemma being that strong. Sure, he might be the strongest demon, but by how much compared to somebody like Kyōka? After all, Mard Geer has a reputation of outright lying.
We know Minerva is is not that much weaker than Jiemma as she was easily able to stop Natsu's attack when he used it against Jiemma in the GMG Arc. I think it was after Natsu invaded Sabertooth's Lodge. Therefore, if she was turned to a demon just like her father, wouldn't that still place them on levels that are not too far apart? Because, essentially, the demon powers didn't boost Jiemma more than Minerva and vice versa. Anyways, assuming Jiemma is just a little stronger than Minerva in power, that wouldn't really make him that much stronger than Kyōka because Erza was able to defeat Minerva who is quite weaker than Kyōka herself.
Mard Geer is only about 2.5x stronger than Kyōka so this gives us a rough idea of how strong Jiemma is. My guess would be that he is around Tartaros Erza Level. Sting beat Jiemma with the help of Rogue who is his equal. That means Sting by himself is probably close to half as weak as Jiemma in base form. Alvarez Gray clearly surpasses Tartaros Erza. My point is that Sting would need to have grown well over 2x as strong to even match Alvarez Gray let alone beat him. That is like the difference between Mard Geer and Kyōka.
You are correct in saying that we have no reason to believe Sting's Dragon Force is weaker than Natsu's Dragon Force. However, we saw Natsu defeat both DF Sting and DF Rogue while staying in Base Form. This can mean two things. Either it is implied that Natsu's Dragon Force is indeed stronger than Sting's Dragon Force, or the more likely scenario is that Natsu's raw powers trumps Sting's raw powers.
To be honest I really can't make a clear conclusion with the fight simply because the restrictions are contradicting each other for me, but my first guess would be that Sting takes the win, mainly because of his various abilities such as Dragon Force, White Drive and the Stigmata ability.
