Discussion The Ankhseram Thread

[Zehahaha]

Endless was introduced near halfway through Rave. It was foreshadowed for pretty much the latter half of the series. It was name dropped 100 chapters into the story. Ankhseram is popping up 400 chapters into Fairy Tail. The two are hardly comparable.

Fairy Tail could go for 800 chapter for all we know, this means nothing
Endless was mentioned in chapter 97 if I recall right... And then appeared in chapter 168

Whatever Ankhseram is, it's taking much more importance now, first with Zeref's teachers warning him, then with Zeref being cursed and then Mavis now

 

[Axiomus]

I highly doubt Fairy Tail is going for another 800 chapters. Again, compared to Zeref who was introduced near the start of the series, and Acnologia who was name dropped halfway through, Ankhseram is basically being thrown in here as the series is coming to wrap. There's been no build-up to him at all, and he's not even really being portrayed to be an evil guy. He's just some guy that likes to curse people when they mess with life.

 

[Holt]

It's not like we know the series is ending. It's an assumption. Also, even if the series was indeed ending, that doesn't stop Ankhseram from being involved. In Naruto, Kaguya was literally introduced at the end. Mere chapters before she showed up. There's still enough time for more info on Ankhseram and for him to be involved.

 

[Axiomus]

I'm just saying it would be poor writing to slap on characters that have little to no foreshadowing. It's much more interesting to have the final antagonists to have a large build-up and stake with the main characters. Having random characters slapped on at the end seems...well, I don't like the idea of it.

Saying Fairy Tail is going to run for another 400 chapters saying Fairy Tail is going to run for longer than One Piece currently is. I'm not saying this is impossible, I'm just saying this wouldn't necessary be a good thing. I'm afraid the series is going to begin to feel like its dragging itself out for the sake of it. This can get repetitive fast, especially with Mashima's way of writing.

This is why I don't see Ankhseram being an evil god the characters having to fight. He wouldn't be all that interesting as an antagonist, and tbh I dont really see him as evil. We've had such a big build up for villains like Acnologia and Zeref, and those two have done things that have forever changed the history of the world. Ankhseram is basically just passively cursing people and leaving them to their own devices.

 

[Holt]

Except Ankhseram is far from random. He's directly behind majority of the events in Fairy Tail. Zeref is immortal because of him. Zeref created E.N.D and the Etherious demons (and others) because he wanted to die. It's also due to this immortality that Zeref and Mavis even met (because he would have been long dead). Now we find out that Mavis is also cursed by Ankhseram. There are numerous other events that are ultimately linked back to Ankhseram as well (like Gray's story for example). This is already a build up to Ankhseram and we could get more on the way. The Alvarez vs Ishgar war is only about to begin. Acnologia and Zeref are not yet dead, E.N.D itself hasn't made an appearance. There's the one magic and other thing to be resolved so there is enough time to build up Ankhseram to be their final villain without it being sloppy or random.

 

[Axiomus]

I dunno. To me, he feels really random. Like something slapped on to give Zeref some back story. I just don't see Ankhseram being a villain in the future. Ain't feeling it. I may change my mind if there's a really good back story about him though, but if he's just tacted on as a god the guys have to fight after we deal with Zeref.....euuuugh.

Zeref would have still created the Etherious in an attempt to bring back Natsu. He may not have created them for the sake of destroying himself so they might not have been so powerful, but bringing back Natsu was always one of his goals. Everything else Zeref created like tower of heaven and Eclipse was already designed. The only thing Ankhseram is really directly responsible for is Zeref's immortality and his wish to die. I have my own doubts if Mavis was truly cursed by Ankhseram. The way the last chapter explained it didn't really make a whole lot of sense, especially if you consider the fact that Mavis never killed anyone for 6 years after the trade wars ended. I think Zeref just assumed Mavis was cursed by Ankhseram because that's the only way he knows someone can become immortal. If we're talking about direct responsibility....The guy who takes the cake would have to be Acnologia. Without him, the dragons would likely still be around. That doesn't necessarily mean the dragon who trained him is going to make for an interesting final villain.

One way I would like to see Ankhseram is to have him appear after in Zeref's mind after Zeref has been defeated to ask him if he knows why he was cursed. When Zeref finally understands that he shouldn't be so eager to mess with the cycle of life, Ankhseram would lift Zeref's curse and allow him to be a mortal and die.

 

[kkck]

To me the questions here would be the following:

1.- Does ankseram exist?
2.- If he does, is he really cursing people?
3.- If he isn't cursing people, what exactly brings about the curse?

In context, ankseram could exist however he is not necessarily the one that brings about the curse directly. If he does exist then its plausible that the curse is the result of magic he taught to others. We saw how mavis got cursed, it was through the use of law. We never saw anyone physically cursing her, she just became like that after using the magic and that was the end of that. It does not rule out divine intervention but it also does not prove it. In that regard law's side effect could simply be the curse of ankseram so to speak.

I think the core issue here is law itself, which seems to be the origin of the 3 fairy magics and perhaps even fairy heart itself. Maybe zeref came upon law, used it, suffered its side effect. Then he passed it on to mavis and she developed the side effect. So mavis took the "law" magic and perhaps she was the one that developed the 3 great fairy magics which did not suffer the side effects of the original law. Or perhaps zeref passed the three great fairy magics and mavis did use it prematurely.

And the question is, why did zeref use law in the first place? given his objectives he might have thought it could help him bring back his little bro.

 

[Zehahaha]

I don't think Law has anything to do with Zeref's curse, we know he was pursuing Life & Death and its relation with magic, as far as we're concerned he got cursed because of that

 

[Holt]

Zeref would have still created the Etherious in an attempt to bring back Natsu. He may not have created them for the sake of destroying himself so they might not have been so powerful, but bringing back Natsu was always one of his goals. Everything else Zeref created like tower of heaven and Eclipse was already designed.

Actually, that's not correct. It was canonically stated that the Etherious was created for the sole purpose of killing Zeref. Zeref would have indeed looked for some way to revive Natsu but he wouldn't have created the Etherious.

The only thing Ankhseram is really directly responsible for is Zeref's immortality and his wish to die.

And Zeref's immortality is also a pretty big deal. Zeref is the emperor of Alvarez who are about to war with FT and Ishgar. Also if he wasn't immortal, he wouldn't have even met Mavis and the FT founders.

I have my own doubts if Mavis was truly cursed by Ankhseram. The way the last chapter explained it didn't really make a whole lot of sense, especially if you consider the fact that Mavis never killed anyone for 6 years after the trade wars ended. I think Zeref just assumed Mavis was cursed by Ankhseram because that's the only way he knows someone can become immortal.

Then there's really no reason why you should believe that Ankhseram cursed Zeref either. After all, it could have also been an assumption in Zeref's case.
Well to be fair, it's not like it was stated that killing is necessary for Ankhseram's curse. It's not understanding the value of life or something. When Zeref's curse was enacted, it wasn't because he killed people either.

If we're talking about direct responsibility....The guy who takes the cake would have to be Acnologia. Without him, the dragons would likely still be around. That doesn't necessarily mean the dragon who trained him is going to make for an interesting final villain.

Actually, that doesn't follow. Acnologia was just a Dragon Slayer after all. Other dragon slayers still existed.
I'm also not seeing your connection between the dragon who trained Acnologia. Ankhseram didn't train Zeref. He cursed him. A curse which is directly behind the events of the FT story. Sure dragons might have still existed if Acnologia hadn't slain them all, but their involvement in the actual FT storyline is practically nonexistent. Their only relation are the foster dragons. Asides that, they've hardly affected the current story.

One way I would like to see Ankhseram is to have him appear after in Zeref's mind after Zeref has been defeated to ask him if he knows why he was cursed. When Zeref finally understands that he shouldn't be so eager to mess with the cycle of life, Ankhseram would lift Zeref's curse and allow him to be a mortal and die.

Doesn't that mean Ankhseram still plays a role in the story? I didn't say Ankhersam will necessarily be the final villain. It was a question of if he would be more involved in the story.

 

[Axiomus]

How else was Zeref going to revive Natsu? I mean, sure Zeref might have tried another way...but Etherious is probably the most effective way regardless.

With Mavis there may have been differences, I admit. but Mavis would have still met Yury and the others. Who knows what would have happened. They might have taken longer to train after they lost to that Phantom Lord guy, but that wouldn't have been that much different. Mavis may have never used Law or any of the fairy magics, but even that is negligible. Ankhseram's curse was described that the more you valued life, the more you take away lives of others. That's why its known as the contradiction curse. I find it extremely hard to believe that Mavis would have spent 6 years after the war, and not take a single life during that time. Even if war dulled her sense of valuing of life, she's had 6 years to spend with her friends to remedy that. I mean, I might be wrong. But I have my doubts.

Acnologia destroyed most dragons during the Dragon King's Festival and he used a special type of dragon slayer magic to do it. No other Dragon Slayer could have stolen souls from dragons like that. Also, none of the other dragons slayers were as strong as Acnologia. I think its safe to say that the stronger dragons can hold their own against the dragon slayers. Acnologia's dragon king festival was called Ragnarok. If you have an event named after yourself referred to as the end of the world...that's seriously got to mean something.

How would the dragons still being around not effect the storyline? The dragons ruled the world. Acnologia alone could rule the world, and Igneel is almost on his level. Just 4 dragons were able to wipe out the entire face system, which was Ishgar's defenses against Alvarez. They did so in a matter of minutes. If there was even 100 or so dragons of that level, humans would most likely be living under the rule of dragon. Half the threats in this series can be resolved if some human tried to get some help from a nice dragon.

I don't have a proiblem with Ankhseram being involved in the plot, like showing up to talk to Zeref at the end of his life. I just don't see Ankhseram being directly involved with his actions. Like I don't see him going around picking fights with Fairy Tail. Why would he? He's literally the god of life and death. I see his role as being more of a divine judge.

 

[Zehahaha]

Mavis would've never defeated the Blue Skull without Zeref teaching them, you really seem to underestimate how effective his teachings were

 

[Holt]

How else was Zeref going to revive Natsu? I mean, sure Zeref might have tried another way...but Etherious is probably the most effective way regardless.

We don't know how else he could have done it because this was the way it happened. Heck he might have not even succeeded if he wasn't immortal. Also, you're missing the point. Even if Natsu was an Etherious, Zeref wouldn't have created the others. The reason for their existence was to kill him and Natsu came last. So assuming he created END he wouldn't have created the other demons.

With Mavis there may have been differences, I admit. but Mavis would have still met Yury and the others. Who knows what would have happened. They might have taken longer to train after they lost to that Phantom Lord guy, but that wouldn't have been that much different. Mavis may have never used Law or any of the fairy magics, but even that is negligible.

No, it would have been very different. Mavis and the others wouldn't have been able to defeat Phantom Lord (I know that wasn't the name at that time) without Zeref teaching them magic. They were taking on an actual guild. Mavis even said that they wouldn't be able to defeat the master even with Zeref's teaching so they made a plan to trap him. Also, without law, Mavis wouldn't have won. Without Zeref's teachings, Mavis and the others probably would have never created a guild and even if they did, they wouldn't have been strong enough to be as relevant as they were.

Ankhseram's curse was described that the more you valued life, the more you take away lives of others. That's why its known as the contradiction curse. I find it extremely hard to believe that Mavis would have spent 6 years after the war, and not take a single life during that time. Even if war dulled her sense of valuing of life, she's had 6 years to spend with her friends to remedy that. I mean, I might be wrong. But I have my doubts.

You may have a point but the fact is that, at the moment, it is canon that Mavis was cursed by Ankhseram. This can't be disputed until proven otherwise. Doesn't mean Mavis was cursed in exactly the same way Zeref was. After all, the circumstances under which they were cursed are different. Mavis isn't done telling her story either but we do know that she was sealed in an ice crystal and we can assume she did this herself since she instructed that they put her grave in tenrou.

Acnologia destroyed most dragons during the Dragon King's Festival and he used a special type of dragon slayer magic to do it. No other Dragon Slayer could have stolen souls from dragons like that. Also, none of the other dragons slayers were as strong as Acnologia. I think its safe to say that the stronger dragons can hold their own against the dragon slayers. Acnologia's dragon king festival was called Ragnarok. If you have an event named after yourself referred to as the end of the world...that's seriously got to mean something.

How would the dragons still being around not effect the storyline? The dragons ruled the world. Acnologia alone could rule the world, and Igneel is almost on his level. Just 4 dragons were able to wipe out the entire face system, which was Ishgar's defenses against Alvarez. They did so in a matter of minutes. If there was even 100 or so dragons of that level, humans would most likely be living under the rule of dragon. Half the threats in this series can be resolved if some human tried to get some help from a nice dragon

Again, Acnologia wasn't the only dragon. Sure they might not have been able to steal souls like him but it was also stated that the dragon slayers of old did kill dragons, only that Acnologia killed far more. Not saying Acnologia isn't powerful or anything, but the other Dragon slayers were powerful too.

As for the other part, you're missing my point. Sure things would be drastically different if dragons still existed but how different would they be? And how does that affect the current story? If dragons were alive, the World would be different but Fairy Tail isn't a story about the world, it's focusing on a specific part which is the guild. See in all likelihood, things would have still turned out the same way if dragons existed. There's no guarantee that dragons being alive would have made Fairy Tail as a guild and the other important aspects different. We were told that some dragons were in favor of co-existing with humans and we were told that after they teamed up with humans and taught them DS magic, they began to win the war. So if Acnologia hadn't slain all the dragons, then they would still exist but those would be the ones that are not after killing humans. Do recall that some dragons did in fact survive for a while and those were the ones that took up foster kids. It's not like they took actions that drastically changed the world or anything so dragons being alive doesn't necessarily mean the story would have been entirely different. Sure the standard of power would be different but they probably wouldn't even interfere much.
Without Ankhersam cursing Zeref, then Fairy Tail as we know it would have been something entirely different if not nonexistent.
.

I don't have a proiblem with Ankhseram being involved in the plot, like showing up to talk to Zeref at the end of his life. I just don't see Ankhseram being directly involved with his actions. Like I don't see him going around picking fights with Fairy Tail. Why would he? He's literally the god of life and death. I see his role as being more of a divine judge.

Well that's a fair point but the fact is that Mashima has a lot of space to fit in a story for Ankhseram. You might feel this way now but that's because we know next to nothing about him. It's not like Acnologia and Zeref were clearly written out characters from the beginning of the story. We found out about their involvement and how relevant they were as we went along. The same could happen for Ankhseram.

 

[Axiomus]

Ummmm....yes, Mavis would have defeated them. She defeated Blue Skull with her illusion magic, and setting a trap, which is something she already knew. She didn't use any magic Zeref taught her to trap the master. Blue Skull weren't even that strong. Mages like Freed, Bixlow, and Evergreen probably could have taken them out. The only time she needed to use Law was when Yuri touched the Tenrou Jade, and turned into the statue. And even then, mages like the Raijinshu probably could've taken it out. Honestly, Mavis' level as a mage during Fairy Tail zero was below average if you ask me.

 

[Holt]

No, she set a trap for the master because they wouldn't have been able to defeat him but they wouldn't have even been able to defeat the other guild members without Zeref teaching them magic. Don't forget that Pretch even lost his eye earlier when while trying to escape from blue skull before Zeref taught them magic. The founders barely escaped from there and you think they would have been able to defeat the guild on their own a few days after? It's not about what level was required to defeat the mages. It's the fact that the founders simply weren't strong to do so on their own without Zeref teaching them.

 

[Zehahaha]

Ummmm....yes, Mavis would have defeated them. She defeated Blue Skull with her illusion magic, and setting a trap, which is something she already knew. She didn't use any magic Zeref taught her to trap the master. Blue Skull weren't even that strong. Mages like Freed, Bixlow, and Evergreen probably could have taken them out. The only time she needed to use Law was when Yuri touched the Tenrou Jade, and turned into the statue. And even then, mages like the Raijinshu probably could've taken it out. Honestly, Mavis' level as a mage during Fairy Tail zero was below average if you ask me.

Yeah, because Yuri and the rest defeated the Blue Skull soldiers with their punches and kicks right ? Come on man... This is getting ridiculous, Mavis herself admitted that she couldn't take on Blue Skull head on and resorted to tactics

And in the end, without Law, Mavis couldn't save Magnolia and her friends

Without Zeref being an immortal, then there's a huge chance Mavis & the rest would've never founded Fairy Tail to begin with, and thus the current story wouldn't happen, so yes Ankhseram does hold some importance

 

[Axiomus]

The magic Zeref taught to Yuri and Pretch could really have been taught by anyone.
They weren't taught some top of the line magic...and they weren't even that powerful.

Without Acnologia, all of the parent dragons would be alive and in fighting shape. None of them would needed to have been sealed in their children. How would Phantom Lord have played out? How would Tower of Heaven? How would Oracion Seis. How would Griimoire Heart? Grand Magic Games? Tartarus? This is just the 5 living with out current dragon slayers. Imagine if there were 100, or 1000 living in harmony with the humans.
Would there be any conflict. Ever?

The only reason our Igneel and the rest had to hide away for 400 years is because they needed to buy time to face off against Acnologia. They could afford to be detected. Plus, they lost their souls and needed to be sealed to prolong their lives. It could very be that they were sealed 400 years ago, and time traveled to year 777.

 

[Zehahaha]

The magic Zeref taught to Yuri and Pretch could really have been taught by anyone.
They weren't taught some top of the line magic...and they weren't even that powerful.

Without Acnologia, all of the parent dragons would be alive and in fighting shape. None of them would needed to have been sealed in their children. How would Phantom Lord have played out? How would Tower of Heaven? How would Oracion Seis. How would Griimoire Heart? Grand Magic Games? Tartarus? This is just the 5 living with out current dragon slayers. Imagine if there were 100, or 1000 living in harmony with the humans.
Would there be any conflict. Ever?

The only reason our Igneel and the rest had to hide away for 400 years is because they needed to buy time to face off against Acnologia. They could afford to be detected. Plus, they lost their souls and needed to be sealed to prolong their lives. It could very be that they were sealed 400 years ago, and time traveled to year 777.

But so what ? What importance does Acnologia hold over Zeref ?
Without Acnologia there won't be any dragons any way, since the conflict started between dragons way before he showed up

Igneel could've died in the conflict, or lived who knows, ultimately the only thing that would've changed would be Gajeel/Sting/Rogue/Wendy not being DS that's about it

Without Zeref being an immortal and his obssession to revive his brother, no Tartaros, no Grimoire Heart/Gerard, no Grand Magic Games either since there would be no Eclipse Gate
Zeref through his actions had much more impact over the story compared to Acnologia

 

[Axiomus]

But so what ? What importance does Acnologia hold over Zeref ?
Without Acnologia there won't be any dragons any way, since the conflict started between dragons way before he showed up

Igneel could've died in the conflict, or lived who knows, ultimately the only thing that would've changed would be Gajeel/Sting/Rogue/Wendy not being DS that's about it

Without Zeref being an immortal and his obssession to revive his brother, no Tartaros, no Grimoire Heart/Gerard, no Grand Magic Games either since there would be no Eclipse Gate
Zeref through his actions had much more impact over the story compared to Acnologia

Without Acnologia, there would be no dragon slayer capable of reaping the souls of Igneel and his allies. Meaning that even if the dragons slayers rebelled, they would still have to face Igneel and his crew in direct combat. In which case, I think its fair to say that Igneel would have taken them out given the fact he was pretty much on Acnologia's level.

Actually, Zeref without being immortal would have still designed Eclipse and Tower of Heaven. With funding for Eclipse cut by the Academy, Zerefs only real option for reviving Natsu would have been to make him an Etherious. Grand Magic games would still exist because Acnologia would have still taken over the world in Rogue's time, the designs for Eclipse would have still been there, and Rogue would have still been desperate enough to return. I'm not saying that Zeref is less important than Acnologia to the story. Half the story revolves around Zeref's actions. It's just that the other half revolves around Acnologia's actions. You cannot tell me that the dragons still existing would not have a huge affect on the story, especially when just a couple dragons can affect the fate of the world. Acnologia specifically is known to be the end of the world in Rogues time.

I think it's a bit unfair to blame everything that Zeref did on Ankhseram. Ankhseram only cursed him. Zeref's is ultimately responsible for his own actions. His decision to wage war on humans and Acnologia. That's all on him. His decision to try to bring back Natsu by designing Eclipse and Tower of Heaven. That's all on him. Ankhseram hasn't actually sanctioned anything except the cursing of Zeref. Again, not villain material.

In a story for Ankhseram. You might feel this way now but that's because we know next to nothing about him. It's not like Acnologia and Zeref were clearly written out characters from the beginning of the story. We found out about their involvement and how relevant they were as we went along. The same could happen for Ankhseram.

Well when that happens, I might change my mind. But for now, I don't like the idea of Ankhseram being a villain to fight after Zeref. He's being introduced way too late, and I find the other villains more interesting.

 

[Holt]

It's not a matter of blaming things on Ankhseram but rather understanding that just one action he took led to majority of the relevant events.

Of course you'd find others more interesting considering we know literally nothing about Ankhseram.

 

[Nemispelled]

Honestly, although you have a lot of good points, I do have to admit that, I actually don't think Ankhseram has had a lot of effect on the plot let alone the events so far. I don't want to exclude him from the story, actually he is good if included into the story. Whether he shows up per the original topic, I don't know, and I am not against that either. Like I said a few posts ago, I will not have a problem if Ankhseram decides to make his appearance; although it does depend on a couple of factors like adding in a backstory and tying that with the showdown against the enemies, otherwise, the plot wont make any sense because the intentions were not even acknowledged before all sides begin to gamble on their lives.

Even without Ankhseram in the plots, these things would still have happened:

- The wars between slayers and dragons in the age of dragons would have happened

- Acnologia slaying a lot of the dragons would still have happened at the time

- Zeref would have still tried to revive his brother Natsu

- Zeref was still gonna create eclipse to turn back time into the past

The events that we've seen in FT may not have the same sequence, but the goal and endgame for the plot will still be there.

Ankhseram just sped the events up because Zeref realized that he was and immortal and wanted to die ASAP. That's not the case anymore as we know it, but Zeref had his goals already planned. He got banned from Mildian Magical Academy before we were sure that he was cursed by a god or had the powers of an immortal like what Ankhseram ended up doing after Zeref failed to comply to the professors' orders when he was banned at Mildian Magical Academy.